Hi,

About 2 months ago my wife said she�s (likely) wanting to separate, which was a SHOCK to me despite our relationship being quite stale.

So here�s a bit of our background;

I�m 47, my wife 42, we met about 14 years ago, were married 12 years ago and we have two beautiful daughters aged 6 and 10.

When we met I thought she was the most gorgeous thing ever, not long after we were married and not long after that we were having our first child.

My wife is a compassionate, kind, generous, selfless person who had a difficult upbringing, her parents are of English background, she calls her father emotionally baron and her mum is quite a narcissist who lent on both her kids for emotional support. My wife�s parents moved around the country (with kids) a lot and were divorced at around 10-12 years after marriage however continued to live together (and still do so) largely for financial (and maybe for supportive) benefits. My wife�s dad has lived a single life ever since and my wife�s mum has gone out with a thousand guys ever since seeking her perfect mate which she still seeks. My wife has been seeing a therapist (currently 3 to 4 times per week) for past year or so to help her deal with her upbringing, identify who she is, seek happiness, etc. My wife has been, for about 6 months, working about 4 days a week in a supportive role for a family drug support program.

My parents are of Europeans background, very (too much so) family orientated and I�ve turned out OK but not someone who shows his emotions much nor someone good at being emotionally supportive.

In the past 4 weeks or so, I�ve seen a relationship counsellor several times, seeing a therapist to learn more about myself, so far read �the 5 Love Languages The Secret to Love That Lasts by Chapman D. Gary�, �Things I Wish I-d Known Before We Got Married by Gary Chapman�, some of �Distant Partners by Les Carter�, chapter one of �Love Busters� and some of Gottmans work. All I can say is that I wish I had done all of this many years ago as it has opened my eyes as to what happens to many relationships/marriages and what could be or could have been done to keep the �flame� burning. I certainly went into our marriage with little preparation and knowledge and so probably did my wife. I wish my wife would read these books (quite ironic when I�ve never read any books in past 12 years) but she�d rather continue reading �Wild - from Last to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail� by Cheryl Strayed.

My wife has been seeing a therapist (currently 3 to 4 times per week) for past year or two to help her deal with her upbringing, identify who she is, seek happiness, etc. She is (hesitantly) seeing the same relationship counsellor today for the first time.

My wife has largely devoted her life to our children (and our family) and likely losing/lost herself (who she is) along the way, she has tried to maintain romance in our relationship and been very supportive.

I have largely devoted myself to work and providing and put little time & effort into romance in our relationship, though I have always helped out, helped with our girls been a good father, in some respects been a good husband but provided little if any emotional support to my wife. We�ve made lots of money along the way and then lost it during the 2008/09 stock market melt down, so financially it�s been a roller-coaster though I have continued to provide reasonably well.

So here we are, my wife (likely) wants to separate, she is discovering herself through therapy, she see�s no emotional connection with me. She seeks her own happiness, putting herself first, emotional connection and no longer wants the materials things. She says she loves me but is no longer in love with me. There has never been any verbal nor physical abuse in our relationship.

I don�t want to separate, I want us to seek counselling help, I want to try bringing romance into our relationship, I want to try filling our love tanks/banks, I love her and want to at least try turning up whatever flame is left.

Separation will have massive & numerous consequences for us and our daughters, my wife will no longer be able (nor afford) to do many, if not most, things she currently does (this is not a threat but a reality check) , so I struggle to fathom that she wants to separate without at least seeking help to see if we can reconnect. She has little hope of reconnection, I have some hope but realise this could eventually still lead to separation.

Finally, I said to my wife last Thursday; we renewed out vows 3 years ago (this was something my wife wanted to do) at a small private ceremony, did this make you happy and she said not really but it was fun.

I�m devastated and seeking help & support through the relationship counsellor. Going to the therapist offers little in the way of help & support at this time but is more about finding out about myself and determine if I want to make changes in my life.

So seeking any advice anyone can offer.

Welcome to MB.

I'm really sorry to tell you, but your wife is having an affair. She isn't discovering herself through therapy; she has discovered another man. You need to go into sleuth mode and find out who it is. Don't, whatever you do, ask her about this. She will just respond with outrage, then bury her affair further so that you cannot find evidence of it.

You may have a Very Difficult time believing this, but reading thousands of marital stories on multiple sites over the years, Every. Single. Time. that a Spouse says something like;

"She says she loves me but is no longer in love with me."

It is a near guarantee that the Spouse is involved with someone else.

No one wants to believe it and they often times throw themselves on a sword believing every complaint that now and suddenly comes out of their Spouses mouth.

Save yourself the time and trouble.

Find out for sure. Now, it's time for you to go into secret sleuth mode and install a stealthy cell phone monitoring software on her phone and a keylogger on her personal and Family computer.

You will likely be in denial about that, but it is usually the case.

What kind of a job does she have and how long has she worked there?

Does she incessantly use and guard her cell phone?

Has anyone's name popped up in a conversation that sort of got your gut instinct triggered, then you allowed it to fizzle out without investigating?

Do NOT let her know you are trying to find out what is going on behind your back.

LTL

OK, I'm (still) open to the idea of her having an affair, actually that's what came to mind a few months back.

She had travelled a few times interstate for work last year and about 2 months ago I found she been texting a guy from her work albeit from another state and she found me early one morning on the ipad looking at guys at her work website. I brought up the issue of her having an affair and she said something like no she is not having an affair but this didn't mean she hadn't revealed her emotional soul (to someone).

She went to this other state to see a friend and also ended seeing this guy when he was playing in his band. Though I'm sure this guy has a girlfriend and daughter. This guy also came to our state about a month ago to play with his band and my wife went to see the band play and helped then out, driving them around, etc.

Also, she's been going to the gym a lot early in the mornings (like 5.30am) for past several months because she said its important to her to keep physically healthy. When I brought up the issue of her having an affair (with a guy from her work) she deflected it onto why couldn't it be someone from the gym.

And yes, she's been on her phone almost permanantly in past several months and changed her password, so I can't get into it for now.

I am so sorry, but she is having an affair. Your first step is to quietly snoop on her and find out the facts. Don't ask her. Come back here when you get the facts and we will help you save your marriage.

Can you hire a PI? A good PI can usually get everything you need in a couple of days.

And I would really drop all this focus on her childhood and "finding herself." That is a needless distraction and a total waste of time.

My silly question.

What would you define as an affair?

A romantic relationship with a man or a woman.

Is this the coworker you mentioned? Its likely this is who the affair is with.

Yes this is a coworker, whom works at the same organisation albeit works & lives in a different state to us.
So my wife would likely have seen him initially at the state headquarters when there was work conferences where she & him would have travelled to last year.
When he travelled to our state with his band in Feb, I didn't worry too much about it because I'm sure my wife mentioned about his daughter and girlfriend, so I figured he was attached living in another state.
But it appears my wife has at the very least had an emotional connection with another guy (likely this guy) even if there hasn't (yet) been a physical relationship.

Sir, sorry to tell you, but your Wife didn't travel to another State to swap emotions.

The quicker you accept this fact and do the investigating to find out the facts, then the sooner you can expose and break up their affair.

LTL

it is a sexual affair. I am sorry to tell you all this. But you shouldn't take our word for anything. Hire a PI and you can get all the evidence you need. With the evidence we will help you save your marriage.

So 2 months (when she said she wanted to separate) and I asked whether she was having an affair and she said no, then she likely lied to me?
WOW this is out of character, she prides herself on her integrity and authenticity!

YES she did.



I believe you. Affairs are out of character for about 99% of cheaters. She is having an affair.

OK THX.
Will try to check the mobile phone bill when I can, this should confirm continued contact with this guy.

That will only show you a phone log and not evidence of an affair. I would strongly urge you to get solid evidence of the affair. Go through her phone, her email, place a voice activated recorder, hire a PI if you can. Don't confront her unless and until you have evidence. If you confront her with only a phone bill in hand, she will just dismiss it and go further underground.

if I were you, I would invest in a good PI if you can. It is well worth the investment because you can save your marriage if you get the facts. We will show you how.

I am very sorry to have to tell you all this, but it is better to know than not know. If you have the FACTS, you have a chance to save this.

Also, stop asking if she is having an affair. She will just continue to lie. When you find the evidence, do NOT confront her. Come back here so we can counsel you on the next step.

OK, I have gone through phone bills up until 26 Feb (thats all I have for now). She has been on the phone with this guy just about every other days up to 25 Feb, even I think at home outside! And phone calls can be up to 60 mins.

I'm not sure how to get onto her phone because I don't know the password (anymore).

He lives in another state, 2 hours plane flight away.

BTW, I haven't asked about an affair since 2 months ago.

I'm going to my counsellor to discuss this on Friday.

What next?

UPDATE
Spoke with phone company;
Wife has phoned this guy every day during March so far multiple times.
This guy has a Bachelor of Psychological Science.
Is there any question there is an emotional relationship with this guy... I don't think so!

What next?

Skip the counselor and GET THE EVIDENCE. Going to "counseling" while your marriage is in trouble is a needless distraction at a critical time. You need to be doing some super sleuthing right now and GET THE EVIDENCE. A call log is not evidence of anything other than lots of calls. It does not prove an affair.

Go here to get some tips on how to spy on her: here

Without telling WW do the following:

Check with the phone company for copies of the texts sent.
Hide a VAR in the WW car.
Hide a VAR in the house where WW usually takes her phone calls.
GPS her car.
Turn on the GPS on her phone.

Again do not confront on your own.
No matter what you find you must never tell your WW how you found out the truth.

So let us know what you find out and we will guide you through the next step.

By the sound of it, this is the same counsellor that your wife is seeing for individual therapy.

f you tell the counsellor what you have discovered, he or she will leak it to your wife. You might think that what you discus with them is confidential, but there is no way the counsellor will not seek to discover why your wife is doing what she is doing, why she is talking to this man a lot, what sort of friendship he offers her whether she has romantic feelings, etc. The counsellor is there to help her, after all. He or she will see talking about this as part of the job.

Once they let the cat out of the bag, you are screwed, my friend. Your wife will move out for sure, accusing you of being paranoid and controlling, saying that your suspicions justify what she has been saying all along, about not being able to live with you. She will move out, and in a few months' time announce that she is NOW in a relationship with this man, while still swearing that she was not in one while she was living with you - and everyone, including the counsellor, will believe her.

If you don't approach this the way we tell you, you have had it. You can kiss your marriage goodbye.

Absolutely don't tell your wife about marriagebuilders now. This is your plan, your strategy. The good moment for that is when the affair is ended and she genuinely wants to recover.

For now, snoop and gather evidence. Stealth mode.

Hi,

I don't know the passcode to her iphone which I assume means I cannot download stuff onto it.

Also, the only way I could possibly get my hands on the phone is during the night whilst she is sleeping with chance she catches me which is no good.

Will try to get copies of txt messages from phone company, which is probably the best evidence I cant get.

The guy lives in another state so the only contact they would have is via phone calls or txts.

What is a VAR in the car?

VAR = Voice Activated Recorder.

They are digital now and you can save the files in a secret file on your computer for the future if needed.

Can you access her i-cloud account?

In the "Operation Investigate" subforum on this site, there is detailed descriptions on how to access all the messages stored in the cloud.

You can Accidentally brake her phone and buy a replacement for her and install cell phone spyware on it before giving her the new one. Then, you will have her new passwords and ALL messages sent.

Oh, she did already hook up with this guy physically. It's not an emotional affair only. Remove the blinders. Is that a deal breaker for you?

LTL

Can you watch her put in the code?


I would still try to do this.


I would try to do that, but you have other resources. You can put a voice activated recorder and a GPS in her car. Where is she when she speaks to the OM?

Does she have an iphone? And do you have her itunes password? you can get everything if you have that.


Did you forget you told us this?:
It looks like they do have planes in your state so they could be together in a matter of hours.

OK, lets say I get evidence.

I'm dying to know what to do next?

How can I get everything via itunes?

What you will do next is kill the affair through exposure. Affairs thrive on secrecy so exposing it will cause the affair to crumble. Once that happens, you will have a chance to move in and save your marriage.

The other part of this plan, called Plan A, is to do your best to present an attractive, pleasant place for her to land as her affair crumbles.

This is past emotional. As you've been told a few times on this thread, this is already a sexual affair.

Do you have the password?

I don't use an i-phone, but I read a very detailed post in the sub-forum I previously recommended to you that shows you how to get copies of every text message by accessing the i-tunes account.

You have to put in the action to figure out how to get things accomplished instead of viewing everything as an obstacle.

Affairs blow up once they are exposed. Then you Plan A and do No Lovebusters.

Have you bought the book or downloadable versionoc Dr. Harley's "Surviving An Affair" and the other recommendation is the book, "Lovebusters"?

Read the Operation Investigate subforum on how to access the u-tunes account if you are serious about trying to find out about and destroy you marriage destructive affair your Wife is involved in.

LTL

Pac
First - Slow down, dont get ahead of yourself
Second - build up intelligence (it will take a little time)
Third- Stop using a relationship counselor, they will not support exposure and NEVER know how to deal with adultery
Fourth - once you have data, come back here for instruction

I guarantee a VAR hidden in her car will yield what you need to confirm the affair. Make no mistake about it, your wife is committing ADULTERY!!!!

Don't act foolishly or on emotion.- This is very important, and hard to follow!!!!!!!!

You need to be like a private eye, James Bond, cool, coy and not rattled.


We are hear to guide you so you don't make the same mistakes many of us did.

I'm sorry you find yourself here PAS, but for a guy in your situation, you stumbled into the exact right place.

I'm just going to reiterate what everyone is telling you. Yes, you wife is having an affair. Read through some other situations here, you will see a that pretty much every story is at it's core the same.

Wayward Spouses all act the same. Betrayed Spouses do too.

So, take a few deep deep breaths, and get ready to take a crash course in affair survival. First: DO NOT DO ANYTHING to tip your wife off that you are on to her. Do not tell her about Marriage Builders, do not let her find it. As crappy as your situation is, as far as these things go, you are in about the strongest position you can be in. Second: EVERY instinct you have, every thing you want to do right now, is dead wrong and will make your situation worse. We all know, this is really hard. Most of us had already made numerous mistakes before we found this place and began to figure out and get advice from some very experienced people in how to get through this.

Read through the material on this site and begin to form (FORM, not implement, yet) a plan to get the truth about what is happening in your marriage. Read about the behavior of Wayward Spouses, you will be amazed to see your wife in all of them. The only good thing about that way WS act is that it is predictable, which allows you to follow a plan that has a chance to succeed.

No one here can predict the outcome of your situation, but many here can help you maximize your chances of recovering your marriage if you want to.

Sorry again that you are here. Be still, steel yourself for a rough road, and use this site to arm yourself with the knowledge you are going to need. We'll be here to help.

I understand she is having an affair.

I might have her itunes password (but dont have her iphone password).

Will get a VAS for the car and try to get TXT messages from phone company.

PS- I'm in another country with large time difference, thus why my posts come at different hours.

THX

What do you know about the other man? What can you find out without tipping your hand? Does your wife have any friends that would be sympathetic to your situation? How is your relationship with your parents and her parents?

Also your wife is going to gaslight the hell out of you. She's going to twist everything around to be your fault to keep you off balance and out of her way. For me this was really hard to handle before I found this site and figured out what was going on. Once you figure it out, it takes the power out of it.

This is also a good time for you to do some introspection about your half of the marriage to date. The affair is not your fault, that's all on her, but you are responsible for 1/2 the marriage, and you have to learn to fix that half, and suck it up while you convince your wife to end her affair and return to the marriage. Read about Plan A, actually, read everything Dr. Harley has to say!

Hi Tyk, I understand what you say and I have done plenty of introspection about my half of the marriage to date and I have have not given enough or any time nor energy towards romance.

OK guys & girls.
My wife has been having an affair.
Massive amount of calls & txts to this guy.
Have reasonably intimate photos (not nude, but intimate enough) of them together at his state, which is something one would not do in front of there spouse... so as Dr Phil says, its cheating!
I think that's all the evidence I need, I hope!

What next?

We actually have a 4 week holiday coming up with our 2 daughters so this needs to be addressed urgently. I do have a Counsellor's meeting with her tomorrow and I was carefully going to bring up what she previously had said and say that I feel she's having an affair and see what she says. If she denies then I would say that my gut feeling says otherwise and I'll need to consider over the next couple says.... which brings in the Exposure Plan.... I feel angry and I will expose this f..ker and hope he loses his job!

No. If you do that, you alert her and she will take te affair underground. If you are at war and want to defeat the enemy, you don't warn him. This affair is the enemy, if you bring it up she will deny and take measures to protect it.

Your best chance to fight it is not to bring it up, but attack it with one good blow. If you follow your own plan, the fight will be longer and harder. Don't give up your advantage, never share intel with the enemy.

If you bring it up, she will deny and gaslight. Then she will be more careful to protect the affair. It is like asking an alcoholic if he drinks. The alcoholic will hide his bottles and keep drinking. Your wife is an addict, the affair is her alcohol. Don't give her the chance to hide it better.

You think she will give you an honest answer, but you are not dealing with the woman you married, you are dealing with an addict who will do anything to get her fix.

So DON'T ask her, unless you want the affair to continue.

Read the exposure 101 link.

Every betrayed spouse feels the urge to confront his or her spouse in hope of the truth to come out. That's why several people already told you not to say anything to your wife. Listen to the voices of experience and don't ask.

She will deny, you will lose your headstart.

You need to expose.
Exposure 101

Is the OM married? Who is the OM?

Cancel the counselor meeting, it is pointless and actually harmful.

DO NOT GO TO COUNSELING. DO NOT! DO NOT! DO NOT!

DO NOT CONFRONT YOUR WIFE.

Counselors have no earthly idea about the dynamics of an affair and as such, will give you reckless advice. She/he, not understanding wayward fog, will only validate your wife's fog and you will end up divorced.

We will give you a plan that comes from a clinical psychologist, Dr Bill Harley, author of Surviving an Affair, who specializes in infidelity. We have saved our own marriages using these steps.

CAN YOU FOLLOW A PLAN?

Don't bother with the counceling. Most of them are worthless, and keep in mind, this one in particular has been involved through all this mess. Only go if you can't get out of it without tipping your wife off that you are on to her. If you do go, don't tip your hand!

You do not want to tip your hand until you are ready to go full exposure and begin attacking the affair.

But, you should also be implementing Plan A. That means you are showing your wife the person she fell in love with and married. This upcoming holiday sounds like a good opportunity for Plan A.

Look, you already know she is having an affair. I would say almost definitely a physical affair. You want absolute proof and I get that. It was a big hang up for me as well. Had I not contracted a STD I would not have gotten the "smoking gun" proof I was looking for. (that is something else for you to consider right now as well, be safe)

You know what you know, and you know you don't know all of it. Every new piece of the puzzle is only confirming what you suspect and what we are all telling you. So yes, continue your sluething, but also, move on with the plan.

What is your Exposure plan? Who will you expose to? When? What are you doing about Plan A? You need to be creating dissonance in your WS, who has in her mind completely justified her actions and blamed them on you.

You're cool, you're calculating, you are implementing a Plan!

We have had others who try to "talk" their WS out of an affair with the help of a counselor, in the hopes of circumventing the exposure part of the plan laid out here at Marriage Builders.

It NEVER works.

This is very fixable but you are making strategic mistakes here that are going to backfire on you and make it so that exposure will (possibly) become ineffective.

Your WW is the equivalent of a crack addict and you are trying to pull the pipe out of her hands. Exposure is so effective because affairs thrive on secrecy.

All of this is outlined in the exposure thread and a lot of it has already been covered here. You need to start listening and abandon Plan PAS, because, to be blunt, you have no idea of what you are doing.

Just to verify.. Do you live in another country or are you in another country for buisiness/vacation/whatever? Might be important later if legal advice is discussed.

And what happened today? Plan MarriageBuilders or Plan PAS?

Read this and listen to the clips in here.
Beware of Bad Counselors

Counselers are trained to allow the Individual person to follow their path of choice and it violates their ethics to take a stand on an issue, such as infidelity.

They "May" challenge the cheaters rationale, but by that time, the Twu Luv has already kicked in and they are in denial of the totality of adverse consequences.

You CAN NOT talk or rationalize an addict out of their addiction. It pushes them farther and farther into justifications, thereby farther and deeper into the affair.

The only thing that works is an intentionally planned, well thought out, complete intervention of their vision of reality, which a precise full on frontal attack, behind the scenes, exposure will do.

They get hit in the face with reality for the only and very first time.

You BE the Best Husband and learn all about Plan A, and rekindling the long ago distant memories by sparking and renewing her interest in the Man She Chose To Marry.

You also commit Zero Lovebusters!!!

Have you bought either of those books yet?

Surviving An Affair?

Lovebusters?

Is your marriage worth about $20.00?

Or, you can call in or write to Dr. Harley and his Wife and they will send you one book for Free. It is a Free way to speak to Dr. Harley and see that the advice you have been getting is unequivocally sound and based on his 40+ years of experience.

LTL

Is it vital that exposure includes showing/revealing intimate photos and txt to others?

So after exposure... whats next?

What if she still wants to leave during the short term period after exposure?

I do not think that you have to include proof.

But you need to be willing to show it to those who want proof.

UPDATE;
I'm in Australia.
Wife has pretty much acknowledged affair but maintains she did not have sex.
Exposed wife & coworker to employer (amongst others including family) yesterday, wife not too happy last night.
This morning all friendly even wife looked OK (but maybe a ploy), I offered breakfast and Cc to take kids shopping.
She left 10.30am, I texted 3.30pm asking when will be back so I can have time with our girls, she got back saying will be back 4.30pm, at 5.45pm she rocks up with police at door and no girls, here to get some personal stuff and left. So she has our girls somewhere. I've been speaking with her parents and apparently my wife is scared about violence (her friends would say that is just ridiculous), nothing makes much sense with my wife's action, though I reckon my wife has been lying thru her teeth so I cannot believe much of what she says. She will lose her job if she doesn't go to it, her working boss knows all about the affair, kids school stuff is home so looks like no school for kids tomorrow.

What you think?

Time to talk to lawyers. She can't just take the girls somewhere else. Do you have any prior domestic violence issues? What did the police say?

Police only there to make sure my wife could get her personal gear without my interference. I have no prior domestic violence issues.

What are you doing to get your kids back?

UPDATE:
I think the exposure has destroyed my wife.
She is at an unknown location with our 6yo & 10yo daughters.
I've asked several people to get her to meet me at a neutral place to meet and discuss kids in particular.
If no response within a few days then Solicitor will be writing to her to seek the same before seeking a Court Order.
I'm kind of stuck with not too many options.

Exposure is starting to work. Let time do it's work. Also see a lawyer about custody and kids missing school.

Do whatever you legally can to protect your kids and your access to them. Surely someone knows where they are. I don't know the laws where you are, but here there are truancy laws that I believe could be applied to a parent who is not sending their kids to school.

WS often do crazy stuff after exposure. It is too bad you were not more on guard, but they are hard to predict.

UPDATE:
I think my wife has been destroyed by the exposure and is not rational.
I still don't know where she is with our girls.
Our girls have now missed 2 days of school.
Here in Australia I don't have many options in this current situation, though ultimate would be a Court Order which still takes time, best option for now is to try for neutral ground negotiations which I'm doing.
Mother of my wife is now here (drove from interstate) to start negotiating with her.
Lets see what next couple days bring.


BTW, I've forgotten the codes, WS, etc?
Is there a link for the codes?
THX

Here:

Abbreviations

Have you seen an attorney?

UPDATE
Wife phoned just name, chatted for an hour.

Everything is my fault, her version of past days events is different, she asks why did I tell people about the affair, says I'm controlling, etc, etc, etc.

I'm trying to negotiate something fair in relation to our 2 girls, where they stay, how we do easter, etc, etc.

Do I tell her why I exposed her affair?
(even if I do I doubt she will understand)

Other advice please?

I can't understand why you're focusing on your wife's reaction to exposure. You know that exposure was the right thing to do. She will not understand while she is in her affair. Why is this the issue that you focus on every time you post here?

What are you doing to get your girls back living in their home? What legal steps are you taking to enforce your rights as a father, and their rights to be with their father, in their home?

I have spoken with various people's and I'm doing all I can to get our girls back to living at their home and getting life back to normal for them, my wife is making this difficult even though she thinks I'm making it difficult.

My wife wants money from me so she can move away, etc, etc, but its not that simple..... By her wanting to move out, she has placed herself in a very difficult monetary position which makes it difficult to move out and she is now blaming me. Its not my fault, she wants to go, she even acknowledged days ago that she would be in financial hardship.

I have suggested that our girls and my wife come back to the home along with my wife's mother so that my wife feels safe and she is thinking about this.

I'm writing her an email/txt saying that I love her, its important we show strength for our kids, etc, all other issues can be sorted out over time, etc.

Though I expect that she will just come back asking why I exposed her, blaming me, etc.

If someone could advise on the emphasis going forward and what do I say when she continues to ask why I told people about the affair.

What "various people" have you spoken to? Have you spoken to anybody with the power to make your wife bring your kids home? Have you spoken to a lawyer to get an emergency hearing before a judge?

Where are the kids living? How do you know they are safe?

Has your wife been going to work this week?

What is her employer doing about this workplace affair?

What does she feel unsafe about?

How would having her mother move in make her feel safe?

My mother in law says the kids are safe.

My wife on the phone said the kids are safe.

My wife has NOT gone to work this week (probably blaming me). I have no idea what her employer has done, the employer cannot sack them but may have voiced their disappointment, etc, etc.

My kids have not gone to school this week.

Legal avenue's are slow here in Australia and even then the parties have to show they are making an attempt to resolve matters.

She claims to feel unsafe because of a slightly heated conversation Saturday afternoon, but she is pissed that as she has no car, little money, etc which makes it very difficult for her with the kids, so she is saying I'm making everything worse and not doing everything to protect the kids.

By having the mother in law here, means I might get the kids back her which is best for them.... I'm not sure if this is a great idea, however its an idea to get the kids back to their usual home.

Dr Harley talks about telling the kids the truth and telling kids 7+yo the truth, my wife would go just ape [censored] at any suggestion of telling our 10yo my wife had an affair.

It is extremely important that you tell the kids. Their welfare is more important than her desire to cover up her affair. It is in their best interest to get the facts about their lives. If you don't tell them the truth, she will be free to tell them lies.....about you.

Your wife is not supposed to like the fact that you tell your kids. You are talking as if your wife is some sort of exception, while everybody else's wife loves the idea. Don't you think Dr Harley knows the unfaithful spouse will be upset at exposure, but he advises it anyway? Have you any idea why he advises it? Have your read any of the free materials posted by him, about affairs, on this site?

So, you have not told you kids. Who have you told? Who exactly were the "some others including family" that you told on Saturday?

How did you inform their employer? Did you write a letter? Did you send an email? To whom was the communication addressed? What exactly did you write? Please copy the letter here.

How do you know that their employer cannot sack them? Employers can discipline workers for breaches of their contract, for unprofessional behaviour, and for sexual harassment. Do you know of a clause in their employment contracts that says they cannot be disciplined?

Have you had any response from the employers to your communication, and if so, what did it say?

I can't believed how laid back you are being about this. You are trembling in fear at your wife's upset about being exposed, and doing nothing to get this affair dealt with at the workplace, and to bring your kids home quickly.

You have no idea what the employer has done because you have not followed up with them, and - be honest: you have no idea what your legal rights are, and how to go about getting a court order to get your kids back, because you have not taken proper legal advice.

You're taking this less seriously than I am.

Please describe this "slightly heated conversation".

I thought you gave her your credit card to go shopping? What happened to the credit card?

What does she mean that you are "not doing everything to protect the kids"? What does she want you to do?

SugarCane;

I have and am taken legal advice. Her employer did say she cannot be sacked by this event. She returned the credit card saying I can have it back she didn't want it.

It seems she wants the cake and eat it in the short term at least, she's said either (1) she moves out, with the kids, whom I can visit, and I effectively help pay for setting this up as we are separated, or (2) I move out and she stays in our home with the kids whom I can visit, and I effectively still keep paying for her/kids as we are separated.

So in effect she is using money vs kids against me, but the fact remains that once we are separated that she needs to pay her own expenses which she basically cannot afford to do. I'm getting further advice on this later today.

In relation to 'not doing everything to protect the kids' she is blaming my actions such as 'exposure' and maybe our 'loud conversation' (where I said she lied, she said she didn't have sex, I said give the rings back for safety of them) as being actions to not protecting the kids.

When did the employer say this to you, and how did they say it? By letter? By phone? You said earlier that you had not heard form them.

You did not answer my questions about how you exposed to them, and to whom the letters were sent.

You did not answer my questions about who else you exposed to.

You don't seem to want to deal with the issues I am raising, and that is making it hard to give any more advice.

The affair was exposed to her employer, several of her friends, her parents, my parents & some of my family, several of my friends. I did not put on my facebook (which I don't use much) because this would potentially reach a too large audience of people not close to us. It was too difficult to send letters because I did not have emails of people so I generally did it via phone conversations. I only showed evidence of the affair to a few of my friends. On around Sunday the person she works with (effectively her boss) said she cannot be sacked by exposure of the affair.

I'm not trying to beat you up about this, but I do need to know, so I am asking you to be very specific in your answers:

1. When you say you exposed to her employer, to whom at the organisation exactly did you expose? Was it to the person you describe here: "the person she works with (effectively her boss)" - and did you expose to that person by phone? Did you expose to anybody in that organisation by letter or email? Did you expose to the person you consider to be OM's boss?

2. Have you exposed to anyone on OM's side? Is he married? Have you traced his wife or girlfriend? Have you contacted them?

The other guy live's in another state. He is not married. He has 3 kids with 3 different ladies. He had a girlfriend but no longer as about a month or so ago I've been told. I have his email & phone number but that's about it. He also has a FB site and he is part of a band which has a facebook site. I cannot see his personal FB site thru mine (as he must have blocked me) but I can see it through another's.

I exposed it to the top boss at the organisation and this boss spoke with both my wife and the other guy. This boss also spoke with our state manger and the state manager also spoke with me.

PS
My wife's mum seems to be somewhat minimising the affair without seeing evidence.

Grrrr....

This is really hard work.

Did you expose to her employer by letter, or by phone?

You need to copy his contacts into a Word document, and work out which are the most significant. This can include friends of the band's. You then need to send the private messages, exposing the affair. You need to copy and save those contacts before he realises you have access to those FB sites, and blocks you (or gets the friend to block you from seeing via their site).

Tell your mother-in-law that your wife has admitted the affair.

I'm in Australia.

I exposed by phone to employer.

I think my wife may be minimising the affair to her mum, saying she lent on him for emotional support.

On the guys personal FB site I can only see 6 friends, none of which seem to be significant. He is part of a band and at his band FB site there are no friends.

BTW, her employer said he was a fan of exposure in these types of matters (he is a psychotherapist).

deleted

Read this. Exposing to Children

Stop worrying so much about whether your WW is happy about you exposing the A. Also stop worrying about her financial position. Of course you are not going to give her money to enable her to further the destruction of your marriage! When she complains about this, tell her that you are sorry she's chosen the things she has, but that you have a solution to those problems. Those solutions being, end the affair, come home, and begin working on recovering the marriage with you. I can't give advice on your legal situation but I would be doing whatever I could to get the kids back in school and back home.

Well, that was a fundamental mistake, and one I suspected all along, which is why I kept pushing you for details.

You were never told to expose such an important fact - which is essentially about professional misconduct - over the phone, and just to one person.

There are instructions in the Exposure 101 thread about exposing to an employer. You need to use one of the letter templates provided in that section of the thread, and you need to copy the letter to Human Resources and someone in a senior managerial position. You make it clear that you are expecting a written response from them. Copying the letters in this way ensures that what actually did happen to you doesn't happen - that one individual does not take it upon themselves to decide personally what the organisations policy is or isn't, and informs you that they will not do anything, without speaking to anyone else. That is known as brushing things under the carpet, and that is what we were expressly trying to avoid when the Exposure thread was create, with input from a corporate lawyer who posts here on MB.

If you are serious about this, you need to undo what has been done so shoddily, and redo it, properly.

1. You need to expose this affair in writing to the employer.

2. You need to expose this affair to OM's side.

3. You need to tell family and friends of you and your wife that your wife has confessed the affair and that she has left you. Ask for their help in contacting your wife and persuading her to end the affair. There are template letters in the Exposure thread for that, too.

Nobody ever told you to put the information on your FB wall for everyone to see. We only advise people to use FB as a means of sending private messages, carefully worded so that you are not accused of either spamming or flooding.

4. You need to get a lawyer's help with bringing your kids home. You have a right to see your children. It is illegal for your wife to keep them from you.

SugarCane
The other guy lives in a different state.
I cannot prove the affair was going on during work time.
I can prove the affair was going on during personal time using personal assets.
So the 'Workplace exposure letter' posted by Melody does not seem appropriate in this instance.

Also, I'm having difficulty finding details of people on the guys side, he does have parents and I've been trying to find out details about them.

PAS, you are missing the point entirely. You absolutely can expose to the workplace because this is a workplace affair. A workplace affair is an affair that is between 2 people who work at the same place. You know there is a workplace affair and that is all you need to know. You don't need to "prove" the affair was conducted during worktime. Just the fact that coworkers are having an affair is the point.


You may have answered this, but does he have a facebook page? Linkedin? Have you googled him?

What has happened today?

Have you heard from your wife? When is she bringing the kids back?

Have you consulted a lawyer?

Hi SugarCane

Unfortunately I cannot do much about seeing my kids right now, we may have different laws here, even an urgent court order takes time, which will be considered next week straight after the Easter break. I have to be seen as trying to negotiate something which is difficult when the other part is irrational, bitter & upset.

My wife phoned yesterday and I put a few short term living ideas to her which she said she would consider. It appears my mother in law is also trying to work on my wife, but so far my wife appears to remain pig headed. If my wife does not come around to seeing some common sense then I might not see my kids during easter.

I've not heard from anyone today, so just waiting in limbo which off course sucks.

The fact that a court order takes time makes it even more important for you to apply for one now. Why are you waiting until after the Easter break?

I can't understand why you are delaying this.

because its the soonest the solicitor can see me and she's one of the best in town for these matters...

Just heard from mum in law, wife has told her of the affair (though I'm not party to the conversation), wife now feels totally isolated by the exposure and apparently is not talking to the other guy, mum in law says kids are being well looked after and are doing well.... she'll speak with me again soon...

How about school? Where I live, if children don't show up at school, parents are held accountable. Can school take action if you tell them your chikdren are kept away from school without your permission?

unfortunately nothing can be done taking several days off school... the kids would need to miss alot of school for there to be a problem...

You need to address the points MelodyLane made to you. Just because someone else asked something after she did, that does not mean you should bypass her posts.

He has a facebook page with 6 friends whom all appear irrelevant.
I have googled & googled and not getting far.
I think I know which suburb his parents live at, though not having any luck with an address nor phone number.
I forgot to check linkedin, will do now.

You've not dealt with what Mel said about workplace exposure, though. She gave you the reason why you still need to do it properly.

yes got it

You're probably already aware of this, but I just wanted to remind you.

Read this DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT

UPDATE:
Seeing solicitor tomorrow (earliest appointment I could get).

I have not seen my daughters for almost 9 days now, so I did not see them over easter despite advising I would like to see them and I have easter eggs.

My wife bailed Sunday 8 days ago and is cooped up somewhere with our girls.

Our girls did not go to school last week and not sure if they will be at school this week.

My wife did not go to work last week and I'm not sure whether she's going to work this week.

My wife's brother & mother have tried getting involved, apparently my wife's mother has tried to get my wife to reconsider reconciliation, however my wife is angry, bitter, crazy, possibly unstable and continues to lie and manipulate... I have never seen her like this... I think she is really pissed off about the exposure (and blaming me for everything, I'm the bad person), her plan to separate without the affair being found out has been smashed and she has gone nuts!

My wife came to our home a few days ago with 2 others and took ALL her and our girls personal stuff... I did not try to physically stop this as I do not want to be accused of violence, etc. At this time she said to me repeatedly, she is not coming back!

My wife does not have a car and cannot afford to get a rental home unless I or her parents help her out, and I'm certainly not helping out, she'll need to work that one out on her own.

Yesterday, my wifes mother proposed that my wife and our girls and my wifes mother and her partner all come to my home to live for a couple weeks, living 'separated', so living in different parts of the house, however this did not seem like a good idea (with my wife being so crazy and manipulative) because I'm concerned they would be snooping, I would get no privacy and I might come home one day and everything is gone or I might get accused of being violent, etc.

I do not know whether my wife is still communicating with the affair man from interstate.

It has been difficult to expose the affair to the man's side, as he is single and he has few FB friends (though I'm slowly working on becoming his friend), though I may have just found the address & phone number of his parents home (I would need to phone to confirm), so wondering whether I should phone or write to them (but if they are morans then does this achieve anything)?

Its been a difficult week.

HI,

I reckon I've found the Facebook site of the father and daughters (from 3 different women) of the guy my wife had the affair with.... only because of a post made today.... just luck.

Wondering if it's worth messaging them? or dont bother considering where things are at as described above...

THX

First off, I would message the father and ask for his help. And certainly you need to get legal help to get your children returned. I don't blame you a bit for not accepting the mothers offer. That offer makes no sense.

Hi MelodyLane,

I have sought legal help today.

Would it bee preferable to message his father on FB &/or try phoning him tomorrow (if I can find a phone number)?

I also have found more of his friends on FB.

PS
When I read thru the txt messages between my wife and this guy, its quite clear she is/was in a fantasy fog with this guy who said all the right things to her... here is an example of what he said;
'What I know is I find you beautiful, intelligent, driven, capable, supportive, accomplishing, able to juggle and get through. I find your voice beautiful to listen to and your conversation interests me. I find myself fantasizing about you and getting frsutrated because I can't be with you. I don't ignore this things, I listen to them. To search for why is irrelevant.'


THX

What drivel!

And this f...er had a girlfriend when my wife went to visit him interstate!

Then my wife ends up writing;
'I just want 2 b free 2 b with u. I hope if us still want 2 after (name of city) that we can b somewhere 2gether that will b like a bubble where no one else exists except u & me, even if it's just 4 a few days. (name of city) won't b like that 4 me, but that doesn't mean that I'm not looking 4ward 2 it. Now ur turn 2 answer the questions??'

Talking about fog!

No wonder my wife is in a daze after the exposure.

There is no way I want this guy any where near my daughters...

So how much exposure should I go for his side now, just his dad for now? Do I just FB message his dad or try and find his dad's phone number? (I have about 20 of his FB friends now)

THX

Are you reading these messages for information or for torture? If you need more info, try if you can search through the texts in stead of reading everything. Or copy/paste them and put somewhere safe.

You don't need to post the texts, most of us know what wayward babble looks like and aren't really interested in wasting time reading this.

On exposure, his parents would be good targets, the mothers of his children might be of help. He sounds like a serialcheater. These women will know things that will help end the affair.

Most important are your girls, what have you done to get your girls home safe?

Ok no more txt.

Solicitors letter going out tomorrow if not followed means urgent court application.

Might be tough finding the names of the mothers of his kids.

PS please someone advice the abbreviations for the various persons, the link previously provided didn't work

I've messaged via FB the father of the other guy (he did acknowledge he was the father).

I believe my wife has now also been to see a solicitor.

I fear I'm losing the battle.

Sorry that the link didn't work.

You will find the Abbreviations list in the Notable Posts section at the top of the forum. Click on Forum List and it's the second section.

My wife has a solicitor now, so the battle is on for kids & assets.

I doubt there is any chance of reconciliation here.

I have messaged the father of the OM.

Wondering if I should messages other family members of the OM?

Here Abbreviations and Acronyms

PAS,
Of course there's a chance for reconciliation. Think about it for a moment. She lowered her boundaries and feel for some loser in a band. He seduced her, and she lost her mind.

You need to expose on his side hard. You have his facebook contacts and friends. Expose him to them. Send your exposure letter their way. I'm betting he drops her like a hot potato. The more pressure you put on him the more likely he is to drop her and her fantasy crumbles. Once it does crumble, she might get out of the fog. But it could take time.

Have you confronted this other man? If not, why the heck not? Confront him and tell him you are going to fight for your marriage. Expose on his side far and wide. He may not want any part of the trouble you bring.

UPDATE for those interested;
So after exposing her affair the ex fled our family home with our girls back in March and kept our girls from me and out of school for some 7 weeks during March/April before May Court date.
Her affidavit (full of lies) said she wanted to relocate with kids to another state (same state where the other guy lives). I just wanted 50/50 custody and girls back in school. At Court she dropped her relocation proposal, girls now back at school and interim agreement is I have slightly less then 50/50.
The ex is still in contact with the other guy and recently traveled interstate to see him (I have eyes in the sky)... so she hasn't given up on him and obviously neither has he.
We are back in Court in 6 weeks where I want no less then 50/50 custody otherwise we head to an expensive trial at least 12mths away.
As a reasonably logical person, I (& others) fail to see why she (highly emotional person) continues to pursue this guy unless she intends to relocate interstate with or without our girls & its highly unlikely the Court would agree to her relocation with the girls, so its been suggested she might just skip town without our girls to be with him (which I doubt , but hey women in love do crazy stuff).
So fair to say our relationship is over just like that and exposing her affair made her go psycho. ***EDIT*** here in our home state as she has no family and little friends here and her lover lives interstate, so if she stays here she's still with our girls but doesn't get her interstate lover unless he shifts here which I doubt.
In the meantime, she is delaying things such as allowing our girls to see a psycologist, dealing with property split, etc until August Court date.
Its amazing how some people choose to end 12 years of mostly good marriage with young kids without at least having had a go at trying the heal any problems (with professional help) within the marriage which in our case I believe could have been successful unless of course she was not who I thought she was (as some have suggested). Whats even more amazing is how EVIL women become at separation especially in my case after exposing her affair.
I bet you she's scared that our girls will in time find out the truth despite her great efforts at trying to minimise her affair as being a result of no love & affection from me, even though I'm the one who virtually begged we get professional help to try an reconcile our marriage (without knowing at the time she was having an affair).
In the meantime I recently met a nice and really wealthy girl whom (unfortunately) I'm just not into and going on a date this weekend with a rather nice looking girl a year older then me, though I must say its still emotionally difficult meeting other girls.
So that's the story so far.

Why do you call your wife an ex?
Why are you going on dates and meeting women?

You are still married by everything I've read so far!!

Thank you for clarifying that. That's what I thought I was reading, but I was confused!

I don't understand why you say you exposed her affair but she is scared your girls will find out the truth. If the girls don't know, then you didn't expose the affair.

Maybe it will be more emotionally easy to meet other girls when you are divorced.

Yes sorry, I called my wife the ex.

I called her the ex because we are legally separated and my solicitor will soon make a property settlement offer so as to reduce the chances of me being hit by her legal costs.

I'm in another country and not sure how it works in US, however my solicitor has advised that our Courts will hammer me if I expose the affair to the children.

Of course my wife is scared of anyone else including the kids finding out about her affair, however as we are in Court the matter becomes more difficult to keep exposing. In time our girls will find out she had an affair and they can make their own conclusions.

In the meantime, it seems my wife is stuck between a rock and a hard place unless her lover shifts to our state which I doubt will happen. So unless she skips interstate without our girls to be with him then she is stuck here without him and will need to rebuild a new life at 43yo with no family here.

Yes no doubt it will be more emotionally easy to meet other girls when I'm divorced which here is at least another 9 months away however if we end up at trial then we talking 12+ months.

it works the same. EVERY attorney in the US scares the hell out of the betrayed spouses about exposure because their goal is to facilitate the easiest divorce possible. They don't care about your children, they care about making their job easy. However, very few judges actually advocate lying to children. Keep in mind, the moral responsibility for your children falls to YOU and not some unnamed judge or court bureaucrat. It is in your childrens best interest to know the truth but the court does not have their best interest at heart. Their main concern is to facilitate an easy divorce. They don't give a damn about your kids and will never answer for their upbringing because the buck stops with you.


What will be the "conclusion" if their mother teaches them that wrong is right and their father gives his endorsement by his silence? Who will teach them right from wrong? Your children are being taught that adultery is acceptable and you are not countering that corruption. They will learn that their instincts about right and wrong are the problem here and will learn to QUESTION their own instincts about right and wrong. That is gross dereliction of duty as their parent.

Why is it ok for your wife to tell them lies but not ok for you to tell them truth?

It is your job to give your children moral guidance, not leave them in the hands of a corrupt parent who is teaching them wrong is right while you hope that they "come to their own conclusions." How will that happen? By osmosis?

Kids who are morally neglected by their parents CAN come to their own conclusions on their own if they take the initiative to learn right from wrong on their own as adults. But what if they don't?

if my attorney asked me to lie to my kids and screw with their heads, I would tell him to go to hell. I would tell my kids the truth and inform the attorney he needs to get off his dead [censored] and defend my appropriate actions, if necessary. don't sacrifice the best interests of your children because your lawyer is lazy and uncaring.

I do not disagree with you MelodyLane. However I must be mindful that I do not do anything at this time which hurts my chances of getting additional custody of our girls.

I know I must have a big influence in my girls lives otherwise they run the risk ***EDIT***!
***EDIT***, none of us are perfect, etc, however it was my wife parents who split at 12 years of marriage (just like us) and who had no father love and who's father told her at 13yo she was a slut for wearing make up and who's mother told her that her best asset is what she sits on and who's mother was caught by my wife 13yo taking money for sex and who's mother lent on her kids emotionally for ever. Just wish I new all of this before marrying her!

I will do the best I can for my girls... we do love each other hell of a lot!

Please read this and listen to the radio clips.

Exposing to Children

update & starting a new thread at:
Divorcing/Divorced � wife might relocate interstate without kids!

So my wife and I separated mid March.
She had been having an affair for some 4 to 5 months.
I exposed the affair, she went crazy.
We ended up in Court for interim orders in relation to custody of our daughters 6yo & 10yo, so the girls are currently seeing both of us.
We are back in Court soon, however my wife wanted to undertake mediation this week and today we had a joint session where she proposed some options in relation to custody of our children. We eliminated 3 options and were left with one option being she wants to relocate interstate WITHOUT our daughters but wants the girls spending ALL school/christmas holidays with her and she would also travel back to spend a weekend a month with the girls.
Her reason for wanting to relocate are; to have a relationship (with the guy she was having the affair with) and she had put the girls 1st for 10 years and was not happy and if she can become happy then she would be a better mother and to get away from my family & friends (who know about the affair, etc).
The Court cannot make her NOT relocate, however the Court will probably not allow the kids spend ALL of the school/christmas holidays with her.
I'm stunned that my wife, mother of our kids, might choose to relocate interstate without our children to risk trying to find happiness with another guy (whom I think has part time custody of 3 of his own kids from 3 different woman).
I don't know who I married, I know she had a difficult upbringing with no father love and a narcissistic mother who was emotionally dependant on her kids (being my wife and her brother), though some say my wife is just a narcissistic manipulating woman quite like her mum. She just quit our marriage for this guy without at least trying to professionally work thru our relationship issues.
I find myself in a difficult predicament!
I don't think my wife has even thought of what she would say to our daughters about her moving interstate & leaving them with me.
My heart bleeds tonight for my daughters!

PS we live in another country.

I'm sorry to hear that she's such a horrible parent. Just do everything in your power to protect your children. They're going to need you now more than ever.