I wish I could make the subject longer, but I will do my best to clearly explain.

My wife and I have been married for close to 17 years, we have two boys - almost 15, and almost 11.
My wife has had a few bouts with depression / burnout in the past, and has been off work for the last few months with the last round.

In the fall she confided in me that she thinks she has fallen for another man - a former co-worker who is no longer part of her organization, but works in a related agency. She has had no contact since October, but admits that she still thinks of him. Their relationship was never physical, and she tells me that they never had a conversation, that she wouldn't have in front of her parents and mine. I don't know this person, but she tells me he is a married man, with two children, and has never done anything to encourage her. Two weeks ago she decided that she would like to separate and see if there is something between them. My instinct tells me this is a bad idea, and if I understand what I am reading here, I think this is a really bad idea now.

Now for my errors - which I openly own. I have not in the past been aware of the differences in emotional needs, and admit that I have neglected hers. Realizing this, I am willing to work on these to fulfill them to the best of my ability. Provided she will give me a chance. We had a joint session last week with a counselor who convinced my wife to stay in the house for a week, and observe if I do fulfill what I can (i.e. Domestic Support and Family Commitment) of which I know I dropped the ball in the past. I know it is early still - just a few days, but I think I am pulling my weight there. I plan to continue to do this, as in my eyes I have about 16 years of an imbalance to correct. I would like 16 years at least to correct this.

In regards to other emotional needs like conversation, etc, she doesn't wish to have any part of it as she is "too tired" and wants to work on herself only. This rules out spending time together. I totally am not expecting any physical contact, as I understand the fatigue. Although we do sleep in the same bed. Until the week before her announcement we still made love approximately once a week - which has been our normal balance since the boys were born.

I am torn in that I would like to give her the time to help her get healthier, but at the same time feel she doesn't want to entertain a rebuilding process now, or in the future, and is focused on the other man.

As it stands now, I believe my love bank is sitting close to zero, and if we were to separate, especially with her not in a healthy mental place she may try for something more from him and eventually regret it, and feel even more guilt than she feels now.

She decided to tell my parents yesterday that she is thinking about leaving me, and then left the room to be alone. After an hour, I went to check on her, and her response was to cry and repeat "it's too late". I am not sure if she was saying this to me - telling me it is too late, or saying it to herself to remind herself that it is too late.

I understand that this is a long post, and that I probably left out information that would be helpful, as this is my first time dealing with anything like this please ask away. My TLDR question is how can I help rebuild my love bank, if my wife is not willing / able to invest in the time needed for me to fulfill her emotional needs (conversation for example - time together - with no expectation of sex).

For now I am focusing on what I can do - work on myself, ensure that I don't have any Love Busters (and yes in the past I have had issues with those) and focus on the two needs I specified above.

Thank you.

If she is wayward I wouldn't believe a word she says. Your first course of action is to validate what she says. Time to get some intel by snooping.

Can you explain more when you say nothing has happened between them, he's married, yet she wants to separate to see if there is something between them? This doesn't sound logical. He's married and that would be a horrible thing to admit; knowing the pain it would inflict on this OM's wife and family.

I smell a rat for what it's worth.

Definitely a large well fed rat here. Do not make the mistake of asking her. That will just make her more careful. Your snooping needs to be done secretly. Do you have the password to her cellphone? If you do, get some spyware onto it. Test it on your phone first to make sure that there is no indication of what you have done.

Allan,
Your wife is probably in the midst of an affair. There is a "textbook" nature to affairs, and if you read the threads of the many who post on the "Surviving an Affair" section you will start to see the consistent playbook that wayward spouses use. Sorry, but this looks like a textboook case.

The first thing you need to understand is that when a spouse disengages and says things like, "I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore" it means they are having an affair. Secondly, when an affair is happening, the wayward spouse almost always lies. You cannot trust what they say, and you must snoop and verify your suspicions.

You already know that your wife is in love with someone else. But I think that she isn't being truthful about the full extent of the relationship. We've never seen a spouse separate unless an affair is already underway. And we've seen hundreds and hundreds of cases here.

Your first order of business is to snoop. Put spyware on her phone and computer. Hire a PI if you can. Find out more about what your wife is up to. That may seem like an invasion of privacy to you, but it is the first step in saving your marriage. Are you willing to snoop?

First, thank you for the replies.
Second, in regards to an affair, I would agree to an emotional one, not phsical. I understand, if this makes me sound silly, and I will explain why.
1 she has none, or very little time that is un-accounted for. Up until recently we car pooled to and from work together. She now car pools with a mutual female friend of ours, who works in her office and would not hide any information like this.
2 the man of interest left her team about 15 months ago, and now works a distance away (to far for lunch time meet-ups).
3 I understand that I come off as trusting, but telling about the feeling part, when in fact there was a physical aspect would be out of character, her guilt level always runs high, I beleive her current depression is a result of this guilt.
In regards to spyware on her phone, no can do, her only phone is work issued and controlled, I for example do not own a cell phone. Her social media accounts are generally left open on a computer in the kitchen, and we have never had anything to hide -I guess this makes that a lie.
I agree that her desire to see him and ask him if they hwve a future is horrible. I imagine the relationships this woul destroy. She has told me that he is not happy, which adds weight to your suspicoins.
So lets assume we are both right. An emotional affair, has occured, but not physical, current contact, may be ongiong, but not real easy to prove. She claims there is none, qnd i could talk to her one employee, who knows of the situation to confirm. If I try for exposure, I will push her away. Especially, if there has not been a physical affair, or recent contact and the OM becomes aware as a result of my exposure. If not? Sorry, in the end, to me it doesn't matter, how far she has gone. What matters is winning her back.
Thank you
This was typed on a tablet, so my apologies for errors.

If you cannot get spyware onto her phone, slip a VAR under the passenger seat of the car (using velcro) or anywhere that you are likely to pick up a cellphone conversation.

Don't go for exposure yet, you do not have the information you need.

living_well,

Trust me when I say if it becomes necessary, I can dig up anything I want. Just as context since I know you know what a crack-berry is, her ultimate (and mine) employer is the largest employer in Canada - which for the most part until recently only used BB's. She knows me as an IT guru, I spend my days finding out what other people don't want known - and get paid to do it. It is a pretty good gig. She truly is at heart an honest soul, and would not pursue a physical relationship while we were still together. She has also told me clearly that she wants to tell the OM how she feels and if he feels the same way wait for him (if his is willing) to end his marriage so they can be together.

My goal is to not let this happen, and to head this off. So I don't wish to focus on collecting evidence at this time. This to me would be counter to my goal of repairing the damage already done, focusing on my part. I am asking for help in this regard. If it comes down to it, then I will start collecting, but at that time, we will be living separately, and then there will be no point. She will be free to do as she wishes. Then I am looking at a plan A and B situation.

In short - collecting evidence - if it exists - is counter to the goal. She want to move out, she has not denied how she feels, and collecting, will just motivate her to leave. Instead, I want to convince her to give us a chance.
Thank you.

Hi Allan, welcome to Marriage Builders. It is obvious she is having an affair with this married man, probably physical. She has told you outright that she wants to pursue a relationship with him. She has many opportunities to carry on an affair in the workplace. He can come there if you live in a community that has cars, boats and planes.

YEs, exposure does temporarily push a wayward spouse away, but an affair pushes them away forever. It is irrational to say you are concerned about "pushing her away" when she is already pushed so much away [by her affair] that she wants to leave you.

You won't "win her back" as long as she is having an affair because her lovebank is closed to you. And you will never "win her back" trying to meet the NON intimate emotional needs of DS and FC. Those needs do not make enough lovebank deposits to create romantic love. Exposure is what wrecks affairs so if you want to save this, you need a) get the facts and b) expose the affair.


I don't believe this story. Women don't leave their husbands and children for infatuations. I think there is more to the story.

Then you need to investigate and expose if you find hard evidence. The most effective actions of investigation and exposure are not the most intuitive ones.

When should an affair be exposed?

Statements from that article:

WE are not going to help you with a bad plan. I would point out that you have no experience at this and are the least objective person on this thread. We can't help if you won't listen.

This is a very interesting philosophy of marriage. Does your wife feel that if she develops "feelings," that she is entitled to pursue them even though she is married? She doesn't seem to understand or accept that marriage is an exclusive relationship. She wants to wreck 2 families in pursuit of her feelings and is quite open about that.

Has she had affairs before?

As a person of a similar skillset, I encourage you to not get too cocky. In your investigating, the very skillset that puts you ahead of the game in one sense can blind you in another.

While covering the technical bases of communication that you are good at, don't forget about old school. A prepaid phone can be hard to detect if it's kept off and only used in places where a VAR is not likely. I wouldn't be so quick to rule out personal contact either, which a PI would be useful for.

What prompted my comment?

I'm not sure if you meant that she thinks your just IT when you are something more, or whether she is fully aware of your extra-IT work. Either way, she knows full well that you are into tech and I'll bet she is more careful than the average spouse.

There appears to be a contrast effect going on here, which as others have said, indicates an active affair.

Contrast effect

Forgot to ask: exactly how do you know that?

The point in all of this is not to villainize your wife. The point is to find out exactly what you are dealing with so you can make an effective plan for recovery. In the state that your wife is openly admitting to be in, she is not in a place of trustworthiness. The emotional fog she is experiencing is a very powerful influence.

If you are afraid of losing her over exposure, you should be afraid of losing her over the affair instead. You sure don't want to HELP her walk away, do you?

Yeah. And I and many other wives of similar "gurus" still managed to hide things from them. Knowing you are a "guru" will just make her more careful.


Honest souls become liars when they take heroin. Affairs are like heroin. She is not the woman you know -- she is a drugged out addict. And she will lie.

Sorry to tell you but you need to pull your head out of the sand and wake up here.

She is currently in a physical affair with this OM. Yes, it is physical and yes it is active.

When a WS wants to move out, that is code for "I need space and privacy to conduct my physical affair."

I've never not seen that be the case all the years on this forum. However almost EVERY betrayed spouse is in denial that the affair is physical.

I'm a software engineer and my XH carried on affairs with many women over an 18 year period right under my nose. I did not have a clue. Contact was only via the office phone or face to face. No electronic record anywhere. He finally slipped up on an overseas trip when he used a VoIP phone thinking it was a landline. I had real time access to the phone logs. One single call after 18 years. . .

Each time he got away with it, he got a little better at it.

Wow,
I have to say this is depressing, I will give this some thought tonight. I can talk to members of her team - as mentioned there is one, who is apparently the one who first noticed the attraction - he is a photographer, and he saw it before my wife recognized it (or so she claims). I can also talk to the person who she rides to work with - and see what I find.
If you are right - and your experience indicates this, this sucks.
Thank you.

Allen,

DON'T run off and talk to a bunch of people. You might get their opinions but you will not get the FACTS.

What you want here is the FACTS.

As everyone has said, women don't leave their husband for an infatuation. They leave for an AFFAIR. I am sorry to say that your wife is having an affair.

It doesn't sound like we need to give you tips on how to get the evidence, since you do it for a job. Generally we suggest people put spyware on devices, or a VAR in the WS's car to capture conversations with the AP. You can use whatever method you want to get the facts about the nature of her relationship with this OM.

If you start talking to random people, it will surely get back to her and TIP HER OFF and this is not what you want to do. Get the evidence, and come back here for next steps.

In short, you are WRONG. Collecting evidence is NOT counter to the goal. Unless your 'goal' is to let your wife gaslight you as she walks out the door into another man's arms.

The very first step in saving a marriage in trouble is to 1) find out what the problem is. You actually already know what the problem is, she has another point of comparison. She has an OM. Where you are being gaslit already is the extent of their relationship. If your wife is having an affair, she is not going to tell you the truth about that. So this is something you need to find out for yourself.

For the record, if she is not having an affair (she is), there is only one way to rule that out, and that is to snoop and find out.

So you can see that this is STEP ONE.

Bad idea!! Don't talk to anyone other than a PI. Don't say anything to anybody. Just quietly start snooping and come back here with the goods.

Ok, message recieved, 5x5.
Thank you.

So what is your plan? Are you going to hire a PI?

Presently she is at home (leave from work), unless going to or from counseling. I will start with checking the GPS logs on the vehicles, to see if she is making any stops anywhere else. I know that she could simply turn the GPS unit off, but that would then tell me she is going somewhere and hiding it from me.

Frankly this will then give me enough to look deeper. I know that others here have said not to under estimate her ability to deceive, but unless I tip my hand that I am checking the logs (i.e. I will only check them when I am at work) I don't think she will realize it.

We live in an area that has limited public transportation (i.e. no buses outside of rush hour service). And I will set up a trail cam to check if there is anyone coming or going that shouldn't be from the house. Hiring a PI at this time, to watch her sit at home - would be a pretty big expense - considering she is the larger breadwinner, and has a good handle on the finances I am not sure I could swing the $$ without questions. Also a consideration is in our province (yes Canada) it is a 50/50 split of assets no matter what. If the trail cam shows someone coming to the house, then I can look at hiring a PI, or frankly look at setting up a camera to notify me of arrivals by email.

Last question I had, we have computers in several rooms of the house, these seem to me to be perfect VARs. Does anyone know of any software that would run in the background and record voices? Note, that I run both Windows and Linux based OS's at home. I am thinking something like snooper might work - I can test it to be sure: http://www.snooper.se/index.htm

Of course if she is communicating with him on her work BB by text, I am still not going to be able to find it, but this is a start.
Thank you.

Reminds me of a funny story. My XH had a crackberry supplied by his office so no chance for me to put anything onto it. However, by chance one day we bumped into one another at the bank. I pretended that I knew he would be there. From that day onwards he would leave his crackberry at the office whenever he wanted to conceal his movements. Made life so simple for me; I just knew that whenever his phone went unanswered . . . .


Internal ones are cheaper than external ones and far simpler to configure because you can do it wirelessly. I have a little Panasonic inside pointing at the door. Triggers an email, takes a photo and records the voices. But it is important that she not discover whatever you use.


I've never used that but I know that iPhones have a great var app.



Cheaters do love text messaging, seems to be universal. Texts are the invention of the devil.

This also I think answers one of Erastis's questions.


Sorry, I think I should take the time, and try and answer the questions that you all asked.
MelodyLane - in November we (her, and I) went on a week-end trip to a nearby city. Spent our time in a hotel, I was at a conference during the day, she was free to explore the city, and we spent the evenings, and nights together. This is when she initially told me of the OM. She asked me to keep her close etc. I felt we were doing ok, and that I had started to work on (without knowing what they were) LoveBusters, and making deposits. Our conversation the last couple of weeks revealed that it wasn't enough. Apparently I had let her slip past "he point of no return" and any deposits I made were probably not being credited. I hope that analogy makes sense. I wonder if she had stayed home that week-end, would she have been with him? Which seems like it would have been a perfect time for them to have time alone. But she passed the chance. During our recent conversations, and again yesterday, I asked if she has had any contact, she said no, he wrote to her once, and she told him she was off work and going through a rough patch. So far just her word.

Erastis,
Cockiness warning taken - just as an idea I don't work for CSIS or CSEC (our version of the CIA and NSA) but some of their employees trained me. I am pretty much a desk jockey, but don't mind digging, and enjoy finding the online info.

I hadn't even looked at the cameras yet,
Inside or out, the concealing part might be tricky, but I have an idea of where, upside the location is near one of our routers.
As for not answering her phone - as she is a manager she doesn't answer her crack-berry when in a meeting - which when working is a big chunk of her day. This is actually a rule that I have always supported, nothing bugs me more than being in a meeting and having the managers glued to the dame things.

As mentioned she has a BB for work, our oldest has an iphone, I have always resisted getting a mobile. I never really saw the need. I am at work - meaning at my desk, or in a meeting, or traveling to or from work, or picking up our son. My life has always been predictable and open. Never needed the electronic leash. I think our son has her BB password, but getting it without arousing suspicion could be tricky.

Thank you

Allan,

You can buy a few VAR's and place them in different places: Under the bead, under that car seat of her car.

I placed on under our bed, and I used velcro to attach it to the bed frame. I got the info I needed.

There are plenty of cameras that are small and easy to conceal if you want to go that route.

Just keep snooping. Make this your full time mission until you get the info you need. I have very little doubt you will uncover something soon if you put your focus on this task.

Thanks, does it make sense to hope you are wrong?
At the same time, I know I need to make an honest effort.
Presently reviewing GPS data starting in the middle of last November. If she went anywhere that is suspicious with vehicle 1, I will see it. Might take a few days, but this will be the tip.

Tomorrow, I will drive the car to work, and I can do the same, not sure the data will be from the same period, but this will at least show me if she has driven anywhere to meet. I am pretty sure that he hasn't been to the house - as mentioned outside of public transit, and we live quite a ways out. I also tend to notice any tire tracks in the snow.

Alan,
Can you put spyware on her phone? That would be your best intel.

Regarding the OM coming to your home, the VAR will still record her in phone conversations or video chats on programs like SKYPE. I'd recommend putting it in a place where she would be most likely have those conversations in addition to the bedroom and under her driver's seat.

No chance of this, the phone is a work issue BB, it is locked down from installing anything that would seem suspicious. Above, I asked about VAR software, as we have computers in several rooms in the house, and for those rooms where there isn't one, and a conversation might happen, I may just leave my tablet plugged in "charging". Video chats would be unlikely - unless she was using her BB, again, it is a work one, so she probably wouldn't run the risk, she knows that the IT group at work can review any transmissions.

That is normal. Even if you discover rock solid evidence, you will still hope there is an innocent explanation. That's why gaslighting is so effective: you want to be wrong, even if you can see crystal clear what is going on.

I have completed the review of the GPS logs for both vehicles. I know it isn't conclusive, after all, she was car-polling to work for a while before the holidays, and if something happened during the day, it wouldn't show up.
I have on block of 2 hours on a Saturday that I can't account for. I know she had a wake she went to later that day - and that time, and location is accounted for. However, for 2 hours before the wake she went to her office. I can't push her, without raising suspicions. Any ideas on how to confirm?
The office and the wake were a few blocks apart, she did move the vehicle between the two, otherwise, it might have appeared that she was parking there to save money.
Other than that, nothing that seems suspicious.
Thanks.

Is this since October?

For car#1 I have data from November 15th until now.
For car#2 I have data going back to last spring.

I know that you all firmly have told me that there is a PA going on. With the work she does, and the other person does - both office work - she manages a team of 12, he is not a manager, but works in communications in another organization.
Without accessing calendars, and putting a gps tracer on her person, I am not sure of confirming physical contact, I will see if I can use the VAR software this week-end. Also, going to stop in at the phone/cable provider see if I can get online access to incoming/outgoing calls from the house.
Thank you

Just did a bit of digging, using a photo on his FB profile, I confirmed his address (matched one of the people with the same name in the phone directory to a photo of his son in front of the house across the street).
His home is up for sale. Based on the exterior photo - snow and decorations, looks like the listing was done after Christmas of this year. House also looks like it was either staged, or someone has already moved out - nothing on the counters in the kitchen, four bedroom house - all the beds look like they might be slept in - so if no one has moved out, could be sleeping in separate rooms.

Compared the Address, to all the GPS tracks I have - neither of the vehicles ever went near this place.

Edit - also got car, make, model, color and plate from the exterior shot.

As he is a married man with two children, that is hardly surprising.

Question - for Melody.
I am reading an older thread (LostonLeft coast - Emotional Affair) and I notice again the stressing of the UA time. I understand it, I agree with it, and I have read the rational on timing - 168 hours -50 for work, -56 (actually with my wife, it is probably closer to 65)...We have together from about 5 each night, until 9.
Our boys go to bed at the same time as we do, and my wife is unable to stay up any later.
I would like to work in 1.5 to 2 hour blocks each night - I am calling those connection times - time to fill 3 of the 4 needs - those on her side (the SF can wait on my side she can call the shots there).
As much as I can.

This still leave me with a deficit of about 8 hours or more each week. A couple of 4 hour blocks each week-end day would be great, but we still have that limited time frame - I wake up around 5:30 to 6 am, she wakes up around 7 (if she can sleep in) and the youngest has probably beat her up. Again off to bed around 9. I want to carve out this time, any suggestions?
The boys are noticing that I am monopolizing "moms" time, as we spend time together talking while at home.

Thank you

Melody is going to tell you that you need 4 - 4 hour dates per week. UA time cannot be filled at home, especially with kids there. There is no such thing as 'undivided attention' time when kids are around, even sleeping.

First, you need to prioritize your UA time above everything else, and not the other way around.

Second, you need to spend that time out of the house.

Do you have family or friends that can help with childcare? Can you hire a babysitter?

They can surely be left alone while you have proper dates. You don't even need a babysitter.

Sugarcane,
You are correct, the oldest can and does look after his brother.
My challenge is getting her out of the house on week nights.
Youngest has sports 2 nights a week, the oldest trains 5 afternoons a week, come spring he will probably have games 3 or more times each week. She won't accept taking this away from them.
Remember I am in a semi plan A while I collect evidence.
To get four 4 hour dates, would be Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday.
I honestly don't know how I can sell that.

That is where you need to start. I would sell her on the idea of creating a passionate marriage and the idea of going out on dates. It is in your children's best interest for their parents to have a happy passionate marriage.

Here
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

MeldodyLane,
Thank you.
I think I screwed up.
She admitted tonight that she is just here going through the motions and doesn't beleive there is anything I can do to make this work. She told me that she is leaving no matter what.
I think I tipped my hand, and asked her if she would still leave if he didn't exist. I wanted her to imagine if I could make any positive contributions if he wasn't in the picture. She doubted it.
I asked her what would happen if his family knew. She told me she would leave right away, and I would loose a friend (her). I asked "since you are leaving anyway, what am I loosing?" She didn't take well to the analogy of the drug addict and the crack pipe - I guess the fog is there. So the boys and I are watching Dr. Who, and she is off clearing her head. I will check the GPS logs when she returns.
I imagine I am going to get a few comments to the effect that I might have shot myself in the crank - I fully expect them.
Thank you.

I will read this, I am thinking your intention is for me to get her to read this as well?

Allan,

As you can see from her response to you, she is in the full throes of an affair. So you must keep collecting intel and find proof. Can you hire a PI can keep track of her when you are working?

At this point your objective is to get the evidence, and then expose the affair following the Exposure 101 link posted with ML's signature.

If you don't expose the affair, it will continue to evolve further damaging your chances to recover the marriage.

Why are you posting in MB101? Why haven't you asked for this to be moved to the SAA (Surviving an Affair) forum?

I would not share anything from this site with your WW right now.

Thank you, I get that, just not sure how I can.
A PI can't help if they are communicating by BB. I have no way to get any info from her BB as hacking it would be a federal offense (government property). And she won't give me access - technically cannot even if she was willing.

As for following her - at this time, I don't know when he would need to follow her - I can't pay someone to follow her 40 hours per week. I have accounted for all her time that I can (so outside of when she was actually at work). And have found possibly two hours that is not clear.

Not sure of the protocol's if that is the proper place for this, then yes, it makes sense to move the thread. This thread started as a question to fix what I see as my screw up - not manning up sooner, not being aware, and not meeting her ENs, and devolved into whatever I have now.

She just returned, I will see if she will talk.
Thank you.

Quick update,
She will stay so I don't ruin his family by exposing. I am pretty sure the exposure is still needed, But until I have proof to share, I hope to keep being loving, and provide a safe, warm inviting place. I know it will be tough as her responses tonight have amounted to "as you wish". She did agree to talk to someone from the MB side. But if I understand that isnt recommended.
Suggestions are welcome. Right now I am following what you write here, and looking to oĺder threads for ideas (LostWestCoast Emotional affair really speaks to me).
Thank you.

Allan, first off, you should not be threatening or talking about the affair, you should be getting EVIDENCE. The plan has not changed. Did you threaten to expose the affair?

Why would she say she "will stay so I don't ruin his family by exposing?"


That isn't recommended. What is recommended is that you QUIETLY get the evidence, and without warning, expose the affair.

I think its good that you read older threads, but we will give you the correct advice here. The advice is the same no matter where you read. [other than older threads before 2008-2010 where no one knew about Marriage Builders]

MelodyLane, I mentioned, here that I might have gottn her thinking. She is generally soft but very protective of her friends.
I also expect you to tell me stepped in it.

I think i understand. You asked how his family would feel if they knew and she threatened to leave if you told them? [which she was already going to do anyway] So does she believe you will be quiet now if she stays?

Did she admit she is having an affair?

She will admit she thinks she loves him, and that there is an emotional connection. She claims she does not know if he loves her, but that one of her employees told her he sees it. She denies anything physical, and the therapist(I saw her today my wife saw her yesterday)told me that my WW claims nothing physical has happened. I am in the challenge of you can't prove a negative. I have accounted for almost all of her non-work time since mid-november. But understand I can't account for her time while she worked 3 days a week in December, and full time for 2 weeks in January.

She is here to protect him, I told her I didn't say I would expose I just wanted her to imagine if it is worth it.
I won't lie to her, but her staying like this probably won't work. She is Here in body not in spirit.

But you haven't accounted for her worktime and that is probably when she conducts her affair.

But you do plan to expose the affair, right? That should be done once you have evidence, without forewarning her. If you keep snooping you will eventually get the goods. She can't hide it forever.

If I get proof I will expose it. I know I claimed to be good at digging and I think I am. Just not sure how to find proof. She works in a government office. He works in another building 20 minutes away. Short of getting their calendars which I don't think she will volunteer. I know she was rarely out of the office when she was at work as she was busy catching up on missed work from when she was off. That and her 12 staff coming to her door... her boss.. and her two co-workers and their teams. She gets 30 minutes for lunch, which she normally takes at her desk.

Some ways she could carry on her affair at work would be a) over the phone, b) work skype, c) he could come to her building and they could meet in the parking garage or any other place in the building, d) he could pick her up at the front door, e) she could take an afternoon off and meet him some place. There are a million ways.

You cannot talk her out of it with logic.
Your only chance is plan A, while quietly collecting evidence.

DO NOT talk to her about exposing in any way shape or form and do not let on that you even think he plays a role anymore.
Try to get her to laugh as you did before you got her to date you. You are in a very serious competition here with someone who does not have to share bills and household worries with her. You are the father of her children, which is a huge advantage on your part. But stop having unpleasant interactions with her and talk about problems.

Get evidence as much as you can and if she doesn't want to date you, you may be able ton sneak fun time by taking the whole family to outings she would find enjoyable. If the boys are having a sports game yoi can watch it with her and buy her an ice cream. You know her best so be creative and snoop like crazy at the same time.

Do not get discouraged if she does not respond rightaway. Most women can only be in love with one person at once. Untill you gather more points than the affair fantasy, or (which is much more realistic) you break up the fantasy by exposure with facts, she will not let on that she appreciates your efforts.

MelodyLane, I don't deny there are ways. The PA part, is the part I find challenging. I don't beleive he drives to work, as I think he has one car and he lives right next to transit that would be perfect. But as a means of meeting....
I know work skype is out nobody has video chat on thier computers. The phone is the most probable method of communicating.

HappyHeart,
Thank you, this is my plan, I goofed last night, but think I covered it. I am doing nothing but working for laughs and time now.
We just got back from grocery shopping, just her and I the first time probably since the boys were born that we did that together.
Not exactly ua time, but the closest I have had in a few weeks.
She did suggest a nice dinner for Tuesday night, which was a surprise, the boys will be with us but at least I can cook, and spoil them a bit.
Did get a couple of chuckles, while shopping. She is sleeping now. (Depression)
Thank

So why could they not meet? I am confused. If he owns a car and lives right next to a transit, wouldn't that get him there?



We have skype chat on our computers and it is not video chat. Even so, they do have phones. '

I am confused why you would think this is challenging?

Sorry, I was refering to public transit -the bus route is near his home. And faster and cheaper than it would be for him to drive. It is the getting proof part. I don't have the $$ to have a PI sit outside our home all day for weeks. Also the few neighbours arond would get suspicous. I can't hack her BB, as it is locked down by her work, nor when she goes back to work, can I have a PI follow her all day there.
All I have is what ahe told me, and I worry, that is all I will get.
Without, more I can't expose, and thus might not br able to break the spell, and scare him away.
I know it is wrong, and can already here you saying no - is I want to try and scare him away.
I won't.

We don't suggest you expose without evidence.

I know especially, in this xase, if ww is telling the truth, he may know nothing.
My exposure then could just be telling him of an opportunity.
I know small chance of that.
Well, just finished watching The Jungle Book as a family.
Ww is back in our bed she slept in the spare room last night.

Nothing to update. WW is talking about returning to work early - she was set to be off until the end of this month. Not sure of the implications.

Still planning on cooking a family dinner tonight, she seems chilly, but trying to create a balance between space, and availability - on my part. We watched TV together last night while supper ccoked, then I took our youngest to Archery, and she went to her "bruler-kilo" (sorry - French is her first language and we live in the one place that French is the first langauge in Canada - Her excersice class.

I have a question un-related to my situation - I wanted to ask one of you here before I posted a suggestion on another thread - I tried to send a PM to ML - who is working with another BH and I am not able to send a PM. Is there any way I can ask without posting the information in case it is off base? Thank you.

PMs are not allowed on the MB site.

I strongly urge the use of good old fashioned stand alone digital VAR units. These will catch voice to text, calls, discussions with vehicle passengers, and will also log recording times. That will help if GPS is turned off, by checking duration of travel. Get a couple, less than $30 each. Set the menu to no beep, no led, sensitive mic, and let them run. Get one for the vehicle, one for bedroom, and move one around from place to place.

BrianHurts, Understood,
I will post my question here - it is related to another thread I am reading - involving abrrba, and his efforts to get his ww to quite her job. I have not finished yet, but it seems like this is still ongoing. It occurred to me that security clearances are an issue in her workplace - I think there was mention of Secret clearance required. I don't know about the US rules as much, but an affair can have a huge impact on clearances - the whole idea of reliability comes into question. In this case there might be (speculating) a clause in the contract that the company his wife has with the government requiring the company to inform the contract holder if there are any changes in a persons life that may impact their ability to hold a security clearance. As it is described in the thread, the company is aware that two of its employees are having a physical affair at the sight of employment, and they (the company) has done nothing. I could see this causing the company huge issues, and they may be persuaded to release one, or both of the offenders, rather than loose the contract. I understand that this may seem drastic - and as I am very new to these boards, I wouldn't want to post that as a suggestion on his thread without input from everyone here who has been there, and has their heads on straight. Which I acknowledge mine isn't.
Thank you.

Thank you - so about 50 or so Canadian,
May I ask do you have links to suggested ones?
Thank you.

Oh, and as a little humour - on Sunday, I was up on the roof shoveling snow off. Our youngest was up there with me (no safety concerns if he fell off, it would have been a few feet to soft fluffy snow - and WW had approved the adventure. Anyway after I worked for a bit, I asked him to go back inside so I wouldn't hit him with snow or ice (breaking it off from an overhang). Apparently while inside he looked at WW and asked her if OM could do that (shovel the snow off the roof).

Kid gets an extra hug for that.

I've had good luck with the low end Olympus voice recorder units, but playback can be tedious, even at 2x. The higher end ones allow download so you can review with an app that would allow you to visually scan recording levels.

I'm not sure about product link protocol, so I will trust your search abilities

Thanks,
I found the 4GB (WS852 and the 8GB (WS853) they are 69.99 and 99.99 (Canadian) respectively.
I will stop in at the store, and see if they have any in stock.

I paid about $40 for mine. It's a Sony T-mark, and it worked well. The key is just hiding it well. I velcroed mine to the frame of our bed where my wife would Skype and go into chat rooms. I got the intel I needed. Hide them wherever she takes her private moments. Good luck.

Sorry, I just saw a comment on another thread that applies to me, I wonder to what extent. living_well advised another BM to let Joyce know that his WW makes more than he does.
I understand that traditionally men have made more then women, but in some cases (mine for example) the women makes more. I make more than minimum wage, and would be considered as more than the median income for a single parent family in my province. My wife is a talented person with a specific skill set who presently makes about twice my salary. How damaging could this be? Short of getting a second job, which would cut into any chance of UA, suggestions? I can see the possibility of increasing my salary - but very unlikely that I could double it and become at least equal to her.
Thank you

Did you get a chance to read Dr Harley on the need for financial support ? It is not just the issue of who makes the most money. In the thread you are referring to, the family's debts had mounted up to such an extent that the poster was worried about losing his council house. To be the most attractive option in plan A, he had to turn that around. I believe that he did so.

Correct, I don't think we have any issue for stability together, I must have taken you comment out of context and it set me to thinking.

Hi Allan! I think those are some great points about the security clearance and I hope you will mention that to abrra.

ML,
Thank you, done.

Also, is this a glimmer of light?
I made a dinner last night, it was "semi-romanitc" I know I make up terms, WW, our YS (Younger Son) and I. I set out candles, with no backlash, when I returned from clearing the table, WW had set a valentine gift (heart shaped Resses Cup pack) at my place, she told me not to read into it. But I can't help it.
I did pick her up something - a box set of one of her favorite series - not recalling that we already have one - I suggested we give this one to her mother, so is this a step forward - or a step back - picking up something that we already has shows I am not paying attention.
Thank you.

Erastis, Sorry this is a few days late, I just re-read the contrast effect thread, and I am wondering, is this a worry from my perspective - should I be on the look out for temptations? Or is it my WW that may be suffering from this? I totally see that happening - her LB for the OM is full - no negative withdrawals, and really no interactions that would result in any. While mine is virtually empty. I am making an analogy that currently we may be operating on an exchange rate - if he is making deposits - and he may not need to do anything to make them - just be on her mind - he is making them at a positive rate of return - so like the Canada/US rate he gets 1.30 for every buck of deposit. I on the other hand am trying to deposit (in her eyes) Indian Rupee where the rate is .019 dollar (Canada) to every Rupee. Does this make sense?
Thank you.

So that means you need to kill the affair so that he isn't able to make ANY deposits. If she wants to stay married, she will have to end contact for life. Once that happens you won't have to worry about exchange rates. You just have to "invest" fully in the MB program with your wife and build a wonderful, ecstatic marriage. The tools are there for you if you're both willing to use them.

But first things first. Kill dead the affair.

Understood, agreed, trying to get evidence. As mentioned before, she is at home (not working) and if communicating only doing so via text, which I have no way of intercepting.
Thanks.

Just an update - as I am still here, but not posting on any progress.

I still have no proof. My wife has, and is still off work, so has been home. Last week was March break and we spent the first three days as a family together. I worked the last part of the week, but our boys and WW were home.

It was a good time, and I feel we have some good interactions. She admitted that she feels that balance growing - we had used this term before I discovered MB.

But she doesn't see it getting to were it was (rationalization).

She also admitted that she would like to have to work, to have to chase, she doesn't feel she needs to do that with me. I hope that makes sense. I think she is looking for excitement - like when a couple first meet.

So I can improve myself, and am working on it - PIES (not eating them I promise) but is there a way I could give her that sense of the chase? Without making withdrawals? I don't want to play on jealousy, I see that as a dangerous slope.

This week-end is going to be busy. Our oldest leaves early Saturday AM for 11 days, our youngest has a tournament during the day on Saturday, and we have a date that evening. Sunday will be chores, shopping - we have started doing the shopping together which has given us some alone time outside of the house.

I know if I can't expose - which I can't without proof, and I am not sure I can get any that this is going to be a challenge, but ideas?

Plan A without exposure, is it possible?

I have VAR set up on the computer - right next to the landline phone, and as mentioned, I can't put anything on her work phone - although I did trick her into giving me the password last week-end. I checked, no text to OM - she rarely uses texts, and had a few dating back to last year - between her, our son, and a few between her one female friend that texts.
I don't expect to have much to post, but I will as I have information to post, or questions to ask. I appreciate all I see here, I am reading other posts, and gleaning ideas, and hope from them. You are all amazing, and I thank you not just for the support for myself, but for all of us who are facing the darkness with no, or little light to guide us.

Thank you.

We all want the chase, but we give it up for something for deeper and more meaningful. Some people live for the superficial thrills that come with new relationships. When the trill dies, they move on. They are called renters in Dr. Harley's parlance. His book Buyers, Renders, and Freeloaders by Dr. Harley might be a good read for both of you.

On the other hand, if you both are willing to put in the UA time and identify and meet each others emotional needs and remove love busters, you will be able to achieve a passionate relationship.

Thank you, I saw the phrase of the Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders before. I want and believed we were Buyers, but it seems she has a bit of a desire to feel like a renter. I will take a look at the book. I am willing to put in the time on the UA part - it is a pleasure. I get the feeling that my exchange rate is getting better than the rupee I might be up to a peso now.

Here until you get the book. Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

BrainHurts,
Thanks, for the link, quick question. With a probable long answer.
How do I keep my Taker at bay while doing Plan A?
I see that as a possible challenge.
Especially since WW cconfirmed tonight that we are in limbo until she overcomes the depression, and figures out what she wants.
Limbo -living together, sharing a bed, but no physical contact.
I know that the figure out what she wants is fog babble and could be her way of stalling for time.

Thank you.

Will she go out on dates with you? If so, what are you doing on the dates? Has your W seen her doctor about ADs?

Yes, to some extent. I am trying for secret dates - shopping is the one I am getting regularly, also events with the boys. This saturday sh and i have tickets to a play and dinner. These were bought last spring, and happen every 5 to 6 weeks. I talked to her about increasing the time together, but as of yesteeday she seems ro want to pull back on that. I get and am aiming for stealth deposits. How does that help me control my taker?
Interms of ADs, yes she has and is taking them. This is an ongoing issue (her third episode of depression since we met) & I beleive, and she acknowledges that this one is largely because of her internal conflict, (2 men..) she can't see that there is any easy way to give up the conflict. In fact I think she has created a spiral.
She doesn't want to give up the fantasy (or make a choice) until she is healthy. Her internal conflict is making her sick, if she would give up on the fantasy the conflict would be over...
But we can't talk about this, and I understand that I can'T bring it up. Logic will not work. Does this make sense? I am nervous about how to deposit enough to make myself a viable option given her "soul searching". She says she realizes she didn't see me as part of her future when she took a pre-retirement course last year. Sorry it is late here and I might not be clear.
Thank you

Allan, does she still want to separate?

How do you think she would be communicating with him?

Remember, you don't want to suppress your taker; you want it in right balance with the giver. The taker protects you. The giver protects your wife.

That is on hold. She spent a couple of days this week at our oldest godparents, but she won't stay away long. We talked today, and until she beats the depression she agreed to make no decisions. She knows I am going to try and win her back and she is open to this.

Not sure, I actually think she might not be. I haven't asked, but she repeated that she hasn't since last fall.
Also break through this AM, she looked at me and said, if we (here &I) work out she won't be able to be friends with OM.
I agreed and asked her why, she said, it would be painful, and dangerous.
I see this as a step forward.

Hmmm I will have to think on this, tips on dealing with her taker?
I see that as my challeng going forward. Ahe has years of me not stepping up for me to make up for.

Update,
Last week she went back to work for three days. Last night she confessed that she called him - and that they have agreed no contact. I know this isn't ideal - I have no proof, and there is no NC letter. We did end up spending a good portion of last night with me reading the first two chapters of surviving an affair to her. She is sleeping now, but wants me to keep reading to her as she sees herself as Sue in it so well. Her biggest hang up was learning to trust me again. (due to my AOs - there hasn't been one since before the 24th of January, I discovered this sight which has helped me id and attack my other LBs which she agrees it is nice to see are gone, but is apprehensive that the LBs may return - my main goal in life is to end them for good.

I will preempt and say yes, red flags - as I have no way of proving if there is contact while she is at her office, short of slipping a VAR into her purse - which after reading another thread here seems risky, I am not sure what I can do. She offered the info for the call voluntarily- I didn't ask, also last Thursday night (so I am guessing the night after the call) we spent the night talking and she had a break down - is it too optimistic to hope this is her starting to grieve? We spent last Friday together, and I see that as (hopefully) the start of the improvement - I started saying I see a light at the end of the tunnel from that day on. But I hope it isn't attached to a train, after last night, I am optimistic that it is a light only - no train - might be the road runner . But I expect a few bumps.

Things have been on an upswing since then. She recognizes the fog, and can see a lot of herself in Sue. I am looking at a trust but verify situation. I have no proof for an exposure - other than what she told me. But I wonder, should I meet with the OM? Let him know that I am aware of the situation, and watching? Remember, WW has confided in me, I haven't been able to dig up, or catch them, so an exposure would be pointless.


Last point(s). Reading SAA together, is this a good, or bad idea? She is really enjoying it, and we stop after relevant points and talk, it seems to be working and I feel it is helping, We are working through EMs now - she is reluctant to do surveys - a) for language issues, b) fatigue and concentration, but open to talking about them, and discussing what EMs each of us have. So I am thinking of doing the survey with her - ask, and write down her responses.

When we get to chapter 5 (or 6) on how affairs should end, I hope that will help her understand my position more. Am I off on this?

And finally last question - SAA is it available in French? I think I found it in Spanish, and I found a HNHN in French, but no SAA, am I just not looking in the right place(s).


Finally - I really do appreciate all of your time, comments, and guidance. Both directed towards me, and what was directed at others, I found inspiration, and hope from the people here. WW knows that I have an online support group (that is how I explained it to her) and she is thinking it might be good to come and post. If that becomes stronger, I believe I can have this thread hidden for a while?

Thank you

Why didn't a NC letter be sent?

How can you close that hole of her calling him from work?

This started last night, I am getting push back on the NC letter - again yes a red flag, that is why I am hoping as we get to the chapter in SAA about how an affair should end it will make sense to her.

As for the hole at work - as mentioned short of a VAR in her purse, not much I can do there. She still has her work BB, and she doesn't carry her purse with her when she is in the office. I was referring to the "Caught Snooping" thread earlier for me that would be a risk, if found. Probably for limited return as she walks in, and puts her purse in her desk in the AM, and takes it out at night, or to get change for coffee. Her BB goes with her in a separate bag, just large enough for that, short of a button size VAR that I can plant on her....

SAA is not available in French afaik. Love busters is.
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/u...wflat&Main=172963&Number=2889002

Thank you - I have LoveBusters in English - that is what I need. I think this should be a mandatory engagement gift. Every father should give it to his son. I know I will.

Here is your evidence:

Have you exposed to OM's BW yet?

Minor obstacle. I know where they live (for now) - the house is sold - that I have confirmed if they are moving to separate locations, or together....I have not been able to determine.

But I haven't been able to obtain her name - I don't think she is on FB at least not with OM - I went through all 50 of his friends, no links that indicate a potential wife for him.

I have called the house - the answering machine is just a generic message - so no name. Did not leave a message as the OM, or the kids could here it first.

I drove by last week-end, knocked on the door, no answer. Do I risk meeting the OM, or the kids before exposing to her?
Thanks.

* I find reluctance to offer help in these threads as I am unsure if my own struggles conflict with the advice of veteran members.

From all I have learned, you will want to do all you can to alert other BS, before confronting OM. If you do not, he will do all he can to spin the affair and/ or take steps to keep you from contacting her.
I would suggest, if you have not already done so, to also look through the photos on OM and OM's "friends" pages. Quite often, those in the photos will be tagged or mentioned within the description or comments. If you find any photos of OM with a woman, that is likely her.

I mentioned recently in another thread, I would also suggest a visit to spokeo .com. Armed with only a ph#, for 99c I was able to discover OM's name, address, family members, and last known marital status.
( I then easily found those family members on FB )

If you find it impossible to discover other BS, OM needs to be confronted regardless. If this is the case, I would do what you had already planned. Knock on the door. If any other person answers, ask "Is mom home?"... or "Mrs. So and so?". But, go there with the purpose and fully prepared to be face to face with no one other than OM.

Before knocking, make note of cars in front of house. Take photos of them. If the result is confronting OM, you will know what car needs to be gone, if you decide to return.

Before knocking, keep in mind this POS is a coward and a cheater. What I did was first ask if OM is who I already knew he was. This let him know I was there for no other purpose than to find him personally. I then asked if he knew whom I was. This would give me an idea if I was already known to him through WW.

Without ever giving my name, I stated "I am WW's husband".
No matter what attitude you are given at the beginning, you will see a change in demeanor once you state whom you are.

Try to have someone with you to stand back. If or if not you are able to have someone with you, in any event, have your phone video running.

PTSD,
Thank you for responding, I have to eat crow on this one - I do some of this for work - I found the OM easily enough - I have his photo - and confirmed who he is. I know his children, and their names, oddly enough they do not seem to have an online presence. The OM has a grand total of 5 photos on his FB page - all of them are of his children. None of him - other than his profile photo, and no women. He has 50 friends, I have gone through them and eliminated any women - either married to someone else, or far too young / old to be the mother of these children. I have the cars - I know his, and I know hers - both were in the driveway when I stopped in (at least I think I know which is which). I have the plate numbers and makes and models of each. As for worries about him - none, he could answer the door chewing on a vegemite sandwich and it wouldn't matter to me. I tried out spokeo -only seems to work for the US - his home number is listed on Canada411 - just his name - that is how I actually found him originally - his address on Canada411 matched a photo taken of his son in front of his house (street view). I already listened to the VM, and only the generic auto greeting.

Also, to share -
Some FB searches the might be helpful:
To help find the individual (OM or OW)
Replace Firstname Lastname and the City, Province_State with the appropriate information run this, find the list of possible.. In my case there were two, pretty simple to narrow down.

https://www.facebook.com/search/str/Firstname Lastname/users-named/intersect/str/City, Province_State/pages-named/residents/present/intersect

Once you find the person and you get the FB user id - (just hover over the profile photo it should appear in the bottom left corner use these searchs (replace the ### with the id number):
https://www.facebook.com/search/#####/photos-of
Should help out when searching for photos the OM (or OW) has been tagged in.
A few others:
Relative search again replace the ### with the id number
https://www.facebook.com/search/###/relatives

Future event invitations:
https://www.facebook.com/search/####/events
Employer
https://www.facebook.com/search/####/employers

ML,
Thank you - challenge - he lives across the river (in another city to be specific) not easy to drive by without causing the WW to ask where I was. But I will when I can.

As for calling, I am, just don't want to make someone nervous by leaving a phone number (call display) that might again cause questions. So I am trying to call from different numbers - pay phones - there are a few, and around. I actually don't own a cell, so no chance of just calling from there and blocking my number.

Try and go by at a time they are home.


You can disguise your # using *67.

Thank you, I will try calling - now that I can do so easier.

Good man!

MelodyLand,
Regular calls to the OMs house- no answer - I will keep trying.

On another note, I think I am making headway.

Last week-end I knew would be a bit of a test. We ended up with a fully booked Saturday. Tickets in city a few hours away for a baseball game (I hate driving in this city) at 13:00 and tickets for a show in a city closer to home at 20:00. Originally WW was going to the game, but then when we discovered the double booking we decided she wouldn't (I didn't want her to miss the concert) this was before d-day.

A week or so ago, she decided she would go to the game. Which I appreciated. She is more comfortable getting around in the other city, and I saw it as a test (no LB on a day trip in a city that I am not comfortable in - btw I passed!).

Since then we have spent more time together, and she has been more receptive to spending UA time. She has initiated spontaneous physical contact (I have huge needs for this) and nightly/morning cuddles. I had asked her to take a bath together on Tuesday and she agreed, although I felt that it was tough for her. Last night she invited me to take a bath with her and she was much more comfortable, this is something that we would do together regularly before d-day.

All great. This AM after she snuggles in she says she want to SF but she wants to only think of me.

I am all in favour of that, the last time we did have a SF event she admitted through tears afterwards that the OM popped into her mind during it - kind of a blow.

So, no rush, as I am a long view type of guy, heck I set a plan of several weeks from our very first date to when I planned our first kiss (she short-circuited that plan).

Question - any ideas on how I can help on this front?

I mentioned before that the OM's name is still mentioned in her office, and this is a trigger - she acknowledges this. I am thinking of sending her a photo of me (the only one I think I look good in) and suggesting that when someone mentions his name she looks at the photo, and repeats my name to herself, does this make sense? Any other ideas? Thank you.

I would ask your wife to stop talking about the OM to you. That is a huge lovebuster for her to say something so disgusting to you when making love. It is completely unnecessary and only serves to set you up for major resentment.

Allen, I was also reading some of your posts, did you put the VAR in her purse like you had discussed?

MelodyLane - I agree on busting it - I think it already has for the most part - just the memories that remain on her part. I see her changing actions the last few days as a positive. My question was how to help her with the memories - the withdrawal?

I do not believe she has had sex with him. She had, had no contact with him since last fall - with the exception of the phone call she told me about (which was three weeks ago now). Prior to that the contact was mostly email, or phone.

I will find away to ask about the possibility of STDs without making an LB. When we first dated, we both were tested out of respect for each other. I could suggest that we both get tested again, it might remove some of the sting of asking.

Agreed that she shouldn't bring him up. In the case described she did it as a confession and I let that slide with no LB on my part. This happened about 3 weeks ago.

No, after another thread on here that has since been wiped, I decided that a VAR in the purse would be a large risk. I have one set up in the house, and the computers are set to capture sound, but the purse would capture little, and increase the risk of the investigation being discovered. As mentioned, she takes her "purse" (actually a small day pack) to work and throws it into her coat locker for the day, so it would capture nothing with a risk of being discovered. She doesn't drive a vehicle back or forth to work (a neighbor drives) so I can't really place a VAR in her (the neighbor's) car.

I get the impression from you that even with a NC agreement (I know there was no letter) that without exposure I must assume that there is still something going on. Even if all the other indicators are that the affair has ended. Am I reading you correctly?

The VAR used on that thread was instrumental in that BH getting the truth, though. It was a resounding success. The fact that it was discovered (the first incident I have seen in 16 yrs on this forum) does not mitigate the success he experienced. Without the VAR he would have never known the truth and the affair could have dragged on without detection for years.

Is there no way you can conceal a VAR in a deep pocket in her purse without being detected? Sure, you don't want to get caught, but that is not the end of the world. Even so, you don't want to get caught because obviously that ruins the objective of spying.

Your situation is very fuzzy and so much does not add up. I am sure there is/has been many things you don't know about.

What is your indicator that the affair has ended? You don't know what she is doing at work and are entirely dependent upon what she chooses to tell you. This is one of the reasons I wanted you to expose this to the OMs wife. She may have a line of sight you don't that could help you find the truth.

As far as exposure, that should be done regardless of the status of the affair. Even if it is over for 20 years and you just found out, it should still be exposed.

I am confused. Why are you not exposing to OM's BW?

This makes no sense. The only way for you to know this would be if you had her followed by a PI full time and also had a VAR on her person at all times.

You don't know that there has been no contact. That is what you WANT to believe.

Ok, in order
1) ML - I didn't answer your question on an affair on my part, missed it, but the answer is no. I have never strayed. There was a close call (near to a ONS - no sex) before we were married, I admitted to that, and would be happy if WW asked for EPs as a result the OW was a person in my building (this is before WW and I bought our house) she had no SO at the time. Ironically this happened during the first time my WW was depressed - I was such a jerk, and probably didn't deserve her at the time.

My WW didn't ask for any EMs (we didn't know of such a need) and I took that as my one and only hall pass.
To be safe, I have made efforts on my own, to ensure that no such chance could occur again, i.e. I rarely travel for work, and the few times I do (i.e. once every few years) I make contact morning, and night, I don't drink (ever) and I don't go out socializing when I do travel. The few friends I make that have been of the other sex, I have introduced to my WW early on, and the one who I am still friends with is also my WWs friend, and we never see each other without my WW being present. I don't have OS friends, and understand that this could be a bad idea up until last fall we did have separate recreational habits, but we are changing this to find something we will both enjoy, I will miss teaching but for now the three hours a week is not something I wish to sacrifice away from my WW.

2)BrainHurts - trying to track down the OM BW - they have sold their house, and I have no contact info for her - not even a name. I have been calling the house at different times to try and reach her. I have even driven by when I had a chance to be in that city, and knocked on the door.

3) SusieQ - you are correct, this is what I want to believe, but I don't know. All I can base this on is the pain and anguish I saw her go through up until last week-end, I saw how it deepened when she called him to say good-bye (yes I know not the MB way - but it happened before I was aware she was doing it, so I will take it as last contact if that is the case) and I see how the pain is passing now. I watched her draw away from me, and since last week-end I have seen her come closer, to the point that last night again she asked me to join her and this morning for the first time since January 25th, when I said I love you she responded in kind (I never stopped saying, or feeling that - she stopped). If the affair is continuing then the aliens have really bored deep and she has managed to find away to have the affair and be with me as well - is it possible she is playing me - yes. I know every WW is capable of this (based on what I have seen here), could she do this without suffering? I don't think so. Time will tell.

Can I absolutely be sure there is no contact from her office? Can I verify that she is not calling him, nor texting him? No, and a VAR in her purse would not show me that. I have gone to her office in the past, she walks in, throws her day pack in her closet, her lunch on top, hangs her jacket and starts her day. She could be calling him from 8 till 4 and the VAR wouldn't pick it up. The ROD (risk of discovery) vs. the potential intelligence is not worth it. I know you will counsel against it, but I will keep trying to reach the OM BW and snooping at the home, I have her passwords to her Social Media, and her tablet and BB.

She is still off two days a week, those are the days that she is most likely to contact him. Today for example she is out with our sons god mother. The snoopers are in place if she contacts the OM when she gets home.

Do I want to find evidence? Of course not, but I need to make an honest effort to ensure that there is no proof to be found as well. I get that. My work training has taught me the same - absence of proof doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just means we haven't found it yet. The corollary though is that in some cases there is no proof not because the suspect cleaned up really well, as that they weren't the one who committed the crime.

I believe that this was an EA - and possibly only one sided at that - and that he left her team before she became aware of her feelings for him. Since she did (last fall) she has been fighting the feelings and trying to make them fade. I haven't helped during that time as I didn't do enough to rebuild my LoveBank. My AO on January 24th pushed her over the edge, and she let me know she felt she had better options. The option was just a fantasy in her head, but it was enough to wake me up, and I hope (and I take what I describe above) as signs that her fantasy is crumbling.

I understand and agree that you all will (and should) only help those who will help themselves.

My last question was on helping the memory fade, and last night tells me I am making headway. I will continue the path I am on - keep my EPs in place (I think I have used EP and EM interchangeably here (Extraordinary Precautions / Extraordinary Measures) keep trying to reach the OM BW just to see if she knows something I don't, and to let her know, but in the meantime, I am going to continue Plan A - with the goal of moving into Recovery - if we aren't already on our way.

If you have other questions, or think I have left something un-answered please let me know.

I will post back with updates as I have them, and until I reach the OM BW, or have proof to share no more questions. Well one - but that is for another thread and isn't directly related to my situation - I hope is more general and may start a discussion helpful to others.

I admire the contributions you all have made here (not just my thread but on all of them going back years), and hope that in some small way I have provided assistance in the few comments I felt comfortable making on other threads.

Thank you.

Can you hire a PI to locate OM's BW? This is a major hole in not exposing to OM's BW.

Considered, first stop before I do that is the lands registry office - they have just sold their home, I know the address, and can get the owner information for a small fee. Downside - the land registry office is across the street from WWs office. I also need to do it during business hours- when I am supposed to be at work. Might need to take a day off.

So, I imposed an exile on myself after an issue on another thread, and was lurking reading, and trying to get ideas an continue the Plan A. But then...
Mel, and others before you ask - no I never did find or contact the OMs partner. I have a feeling that they have moved out of the house, and gone their separate ways - more on why later.
I never did find her, and didn't have a chance to drive over and stake out the house. From the time of my last post until this past Saturday AM, I thought we were doing better.

Saturday morning WW declared that she had been trying for six months and that it wasn't working. In the course of the discussion she revealed that she saw POSOM walking from afar a couple of weeks ago, and had the urge to chase him - she didn't but she feels that this feeling was a sign. This couple (IMHO) with a message she took away from her last IC session (yes IC is death to Marriage recovery - but she is, and has been clinically depressed for several months now (medication, and IC sessions - she started IC with the counselor who I found as our MC). The message she took away - "be true to WW". Her revelation that she saw him, and had an urge - tells me that there was no contact - I think that may soon change though. We agree that we are in the house together until the youngest finishes public school - next June - and I am asking for that time to implement and follow MB. She doesn't think it will work.

I have written to the coaching corner to set up a call. So - yes, hit me for failing to expose - but again - I have no proof of anything other than her telling me how she feels, and have been unable to locate the OMs partner - remember PIs in Canada are not like those in the US - I don't think they can get the same info and share it.
I am considering calling POSOMs manager, and letting him in on this - the boss and my wife know each other and are FB friends. POSOM works for a different agency, but sometimes the agencies do collaborate - hence contact (or glimpses in the hallway) are possible.
I took the first part (the reaction to the glimpse) as proof of how the LB can be so easily rekindled unless I get my LB filled. Which I was making progress on - no LBs - but even a pretty darn good Plan A has been trading at the level of the Mexican Peso.

Plan A activities since - a few dinners out - just her and I, a night out at a resort (Chateau Montello)for our anniversayr - it was a week late as she was out of town the night of our ann - with people I trust and not the OM - still I accept an issue) pulled out all the stops. A movie date - I know movies aren't the best, but the boys wanted to see the Pirates one, so we went to see one at the same time.

Funny - last week-end (so the last week-end of May - she finally agreed and we completed the EM needs questionnaires together. I have been doing pretty good at meeting her EMs. But the exchange rate sucks.

Along with her declaration that it isn't working - she decided that SF isn't being true to herself so she has decided that this will stop. Yes I know .

I have my helmet on, and understand if this post is ignored. In case someone has any idea that is legal (the best I have come up with involves finding some way to make POSOM gay) that I can use please share. I have nothing to expose (no proof - other than her words) and no one to expose to if I had proof.

TLDR- recap - we are in the same home - sleep in the same bed, no SF (I can wait - my giver and my taker are under control) but she has decided it isn't working (even though I have Plan A'd and eliminated LBs) and a simple glimpse and a bad IC message has set me to zero.

Thank you

The advice remains the same. Expose the affair to everyone who's important in your lives (including your 7 year old) and expose to as many people as you can find on his side.

If the marriage is to recover, you will also need to move away from the area so that there's no possibility of running into this loser.

What's changed here is that you've lost 4 months. 4 months that could have been applied to killing the affair and having a chance of recovery. Time has been wasted by timidity, white knuckling it and and hoping for the best. 4 months is a lot of time for an affair to grow and become more cancerous, as you now see.

WWs often lull their betrayed spouses into thinking everything will be all right for a few months, throwing bones here and there until they can safely proclaim that they 'tried' but it didn't work. You allowed yourself to be lulled into complacency and fell for it despite the many, many warnings posters tried to offer.

So you see now that killing an affair is all-out war. Whatever lies ahead, exposure is essential. You may have lost too much time here to recover the marriage but if there's a possibility, it begins with strategic and stealthy exposure.

If you can't take this step, there is simply NO hope for your marriage. If you CAN take the step, you have a chance. Maybe.

Exposure is the first step to killing an affair. You have nothing to lose (you never did!) but now you just might be ready to use this most potent weapon against the affair.

Are you ready?

Stop worrying about proof! You expose by telling everyone that cares about your family, "my wife has fallen in love with a married man and is ready to walk away from our family to be with him. PLEASE help support our marriage!"

YOU ALSO DO WHATEVER YOU CAN TO FIND HIS SPOUSE AND TELL HER AS WELL. You've had a lot of time to get this done. Didn't you say at the beginning of your thread that you were some kind of stealthy genius? COME ON.

Zibbles - the kids know - 11 and 15. They were told very early in the process. My oldest is aware that WW is still confused, and he doesn't know what more I can do (i.e. ending LBs, and Plan A).

I was originally told to expose to the OMs wife only if I could locate her.
I haven't - and yes, I did mention I had to eat crow on that - when I kept coming up blank on her. I mentioned I have her vehicle, make model, plate, her address (I suspect that they have no moved - I realized as I was writing my above post that this week-end was the end of a month / start of a new one - prime time for a house sale be close.) but no way to find who it belongs to. As I mentioned PIs in Canada and databases not the same as in the US. If I tried to get this information from CPIC (the police database) I would loose my job and whoever helped me would loose theirs as well.

I could expose to WWs family - but with only her words that is a risk that I see blowing up - she exposed to my parents herself.

The people left are, our friends - mine know, hers not unless she told them. I have told a couple of mutual friends. If the direction now is to expose widely without proof I will.

I will however defer until after WW talks to Jennifer, just in case, something else comes up. I have been working on exposure letters that would fit this.
For my side (family and mutual friends those that I consider my friend first)

WW has admitted to me that she has in-appropriate feelings for POSOM. I ask that you use whatever influence you may have with WW to encourage her to work on her marriage and not pursue an adulterous relationship with POSOM.

For POSOMs FB -
Friends of POSOM, my wife (WW) has admitted to me that she has developped in-appropriate feelings for POSOM. I encourage you to use whatever influence you may have with POSOM to discontinue any and all contact he may have with WW. Any contact between them can only damage his marriage, and WWs. The continence of this relationship while both are married is adultery. This will negatively affect his children xxxx and yyy, and WW and my children zz, and ll. If you happen to know POSOMs wife I encourage you to ask her to contact me.


For mutual friends of POSOM and WW (POSOM worked for my WW) in the past. This includes several people who report to WW, and POSOMs current manager. POSOM and WW are not friends on FB


Before POSOM left XXXX WW developed in-appropriate feelings for him. She has admitted these feelings to me, and believes that it is appropriate for her to pursue these at the expense of her and POSOMs families, I believe that this will be detrimental to our children zz and ll, and to POSOMs children xx and yy. I ask that you use whatever influence you have with POSOM and WW to prevent any contact between them and end any relationship that they may have as continued contact between them will be detrimental to both of their marriages and families.

These paragraphs along with the normal exposure ones - I don't do this to be vindictive or for revenge, I am sending you this to ask for you help...

Thank you.

You already have proof. Her admittance and her actions are proof. "Inappropriate feelings" is not strong enough. She fell in love with another man and is willing to abandon the marriage to pursue it. If you don't frame the narrative in a way that explains the urgency, you're not going to get the support you need.

You mentioned earlier today that you want to strike at this OM. Exposure has the potential to give you your power back. Your WW will be furious. The angrier she is, the more effective your exposure is.

I would move heaven and earth to find the OMs wife. It needs to be an absolute top priority as it is your number one exposure. If, as you imply, the OM is breaking up with his wife, you can bet the affair has played a huge roll in the destruction of that marriage. She needs to know the enemy at the door.

Basically you have done a trickle job of exposing, and have enabled an unhealthy marital lifestyle (for instance, by agreeing to let her spend nights without you because she is with 'people you trust'), and you are now surprised that things haven't turned around?

As I believe I said on page one, I don't buy this inappropriate feelings' confession. She is in a full blown affair. I also don't buy that you have done everything possible to find the BW. I found out my H had an afffair a decade earlier with a girl named 'Kelly' who he used to work with at that time (huge company). Within one night I had her full name, current address and phone, all her family info from another state, job history...I knew she was a democrat and which restaurants she liked to eat at, her favorite tv show, the fact that she was a wanna be runner. And I am a non tech savvy SAHM who doesn't even know how wifi works. I got the information due to sheer passion to get it, which you clearly don't have.

By the way, we have helped loads of Canadiens before. I have never heard one use being in Canada as an excuse not to expose

Not an excuse - I will post all I have on them - be happy for anyone to find her name. I have his name, address, phone, vehicle information. I have her vehicle, the fact that she might have worked for the next city over at one time, I am told (I know WayWard Speak) that she has mental health issues, the names of their children. His current work phone, email, and location. Short of sitting outside their home (which I did - hence I have the vehicle info). I have also stopped by a few times when I knew he was at work. No one home. I could ask people that might know - but they all are friends with WW and/or OM. We have Canada411 - works if you have a landline phone in your name - OM does - she isn't listed. Intellus and similar don't have Canadian data. We don't have the same voting registration system here as the US- you don't register for one party or the other, and that information is completely confidential unless you reveal your intentions to a party representative who will record it in party databases. These databases are kept confidential by the parties.

POSOM has 51 friends on Facebook. He made one post May 29th of this year, prior to that his last post was February 2015. No relatives posted, one person with the same last name - suspect his brother. He has posted photos of his children - with their names, neither of them have any online accounts under those names that I can find. I have already acknowledged that I am eating crow on this, I spoke to a co-worker who has taught me some and Intel Officers OSINT search techniques. She might have an Obit that shows a name, I don't know if it is the same OM (same name, same city) but I am not giving up.

All that - and Un-Written you are correct. I am in some ways hamstrung - and fell for a ploy.

Oh - the trickle, yes you are correct - WW did most of it herself - before I found MB. She told my parents, and it came up during a family dinner, I had her admit that she thinks she is in love with OM to the boys.
Her family doesn't know, so that will be interesting - French Catholic - so sometimes the attitude is a bit different. Depending on the generation it will be a big deal, or they won't care.

So you let her 'spin' her own version of the affair? That means that she told them that the marriage had already broken down because of your abuse and that this is just a friend (-:

That is why exposure cannot come from the wayward, it must come from the betrayed spouse. Unfortunately once her version is out there, it is almost impossible for you to replace it with the truth. You will just look bitter and vengeful.

Not sure what you mean - She probably tried to tell my father that - I corrected him and my mother the same day. As for our children, I was there, and she told them she loved a guy at work, at the time, I admit I wasn't the best Husband (LBs and not meeting EMs), but I let the boys know that this is no excuse for going outside of the marriage. Since then, they have seen my efforts, and acknowledge that if she leaves it isn't right.

Again this happened before I found MB. My telling my father was the week-end after the d-day, the boys the night of, or night after. She hasn't told her family yet, when I do - I expect venom from her. The challenge there is that aside from her brother and dad, none of them speak English - and my French - not strong enough to explain this to them.

My french isn't the best there is, but why not start with something like this:

Ma femme est amoureuse d'un autre homme. Ils se sont rencontr�s au travail. Je vous en prie, aider notre marriage.

G2S - Not bad, I am thinking your French is better than mine - and I live in it. The intro isn't what I am worried about - nor the emails /letters (google translate, and friends that are bilingual to help). It is the questions from her mom, aunts and uncles that I am nervous about.
Thank you.

Why can't you hire a PI to find the OMBW?

Can you prepare some key sentences in french? You don't need to have a long discussion, you need to convey the most important things.

Exposing is like jumping in the water to get across.
It might be a bit cold, you will most definitely get wet, but you will not drown and this forum will direct you to the other side of the water.
Jump, expose, you will get help with the next bits.

I read somewhere that Canadian PIs won't do this in these types of situations. I would love to be wrong though. Seems to me this would be a pretty simple search - as mentioned I have everything but her name, phone, and address.
Thank you.

G2S - Yes, and I am getting the letter for her friends and family translated so that will help. On a related note I took a look at her messenger stream with her confident. I took screenshots, and translated the exchange here it is:

Confident
Hi WW, a long time ago !!! I often think of you 😍 I hope you managed to make a decision before it all went too far!
Oops too low !!

WW
It feels a little bit better. I decided to give BS (Me) a real chance because really, the changes he brings give me hope. But in fact, I realize that my depression encompasses many more things than BS or POSOM. Finally. We'll see. And you? How are you ?

I still agree that never believe a WW - in this case, this does give me hope - WW has no reason to lie to her friend, and has no idea that I could read this exchange.

The people who want to find evidence and the information needed to expose MAKE IT HAPPEN.

It's really that simple.

SusieQ
You are correct.

On a related note we (WW and I) had a long call with Jennifer last night. At the end of my portion of the call I asked if I should expose and Jenn felt that if I did it would be detrimental in this case - this being an exception.

If I had been able to do it a month or two ago - no problem, but now, it would be counter to what Jenn negotiated with my wife. On that note, I am to focus on being the best that I can for Plan A - and accept that there could be something going on - although I am even more confident after the call that this was a one sided EA, mostly in the mind of my wife.

For the next 3 months, I have to ignore the possibility that WW could be talking to POSOM or worse, and just be an awesome alternative.

I can't say enough positive about Jennifer - she was supposed to spend 15-20 minutes with each of us, and I was in another room as she talked with my WW so I don't know what they talked about, but as the clock ticked past 30 minutes, and more, I felt that longer is better. My WW isn't scared to hang-up on someone so the fact that she didn't seems good.

My immediate job 1)Look at all my possible LBs and write them down, along with alternatives I will replace them with.
2) Figure out some fun activities - again Jennifer was great and managed to get some ideas from WW - that WW will enjoy that we can do together. - those I need to study for.

Thank you.

WARNING TO Newly BS's - Listen to the Experts here

I purchased and "used" a VAR early on when I was first snooping. I was scared that it would be discovered if I sent it to work etc so I used it only at home.

Late last week WW admitted to calling POSOM on Tuesday (her day off).

This prompted my to take another look at the recorder from the time I did actually have it in place and was testing it.

I imported the two tracks that I thought were really small and hadn't captured anything into the software and sat down for a listen. I wish I had done this a when the tracks were first recorded - I didn't realize that a 19mb file could contain 56 minutes of audio - over ten of which would have been enough for an exposure at the time.
In short
1) I caught them talking - after she promised no contact (without using the NC letter)
2) He invited her to his new place once he moves (I speculate this was June first so the visit may already have happened)
3) WW thinks that all her friends and family will support her when / if she leaves - she is staying mostly for the children and so I can get stronger.
4) WW acknowledges that she doesn't now if she should call be she misses him.

Again -all newly BS's don't be a Me (I wanted to write id10t here) snoop like the experts will tell you to - listen to the VAR - and if / when you find enough - expose.

I have an interesting one - and it seems to be the biggest hang-up my WW claims in terms of being willing to give us a try - that and the fog - but leave that alone.

She feels and displays incredible resentment towards me (rightfully IMO) for not meeting her ENs in the past.

I was in many was a lazy husband, I didn't do what I could have / should have around the house or for the family.
TV was my escape when I came home to rest - letting her do meal preparation and for many years the clean-up as well (I agree an offense worth stoning).

I own all of this, and since shortly after discovering MB (like the next day) I stopped watching any TV - I actually haven't turned it on in weeks - except for background music when working.
I have also upped my game to do what I should have been doing since day one - more than my share of DS and Family Support. This has been going on since January, and I don't intend to slack off.

I get she may wonder if I will continue - that is valid - and that I think I can overcome - simply by never stopping.

However, WW is stuck on not being able to move past my years of failure - how can I over come this?
Her resentment on this is greater than I feel about her EA.

Part of me wonders if this is just an excuse on her part, or if it is completely valid does just compensation work here? She isn't open to discussing this and we had a real rough week-end as a result - I LB'd a few times (my weakness is "lecturing" but in this case it was my desire to understand, and asking questions to understand her logic) now a day later with a nights sleep I see that was just stupid on my part - I was probably trying to understand a drunk.

I am putting this in the MB101 as it isn't resentment associated with an affair - so it might be helpful for couples trying to improve a marriage without the infidelity aspect.

Thank you.

How does someone who is such a tech expert as this:

...who brushed off our advice to snoop because he was such an expert, not know this?

And even if you didn't know this, why on earth would you not listen to EVERY scrap of recording you had? How many mbs do you think it would have taken for her to ring him and say "See you next Tuesday, as usual?"

SugarCane -
I already (way back) ate crow on thinking I could find OMW - agree - owned and I bow my head in shame.
Incidentally - I used to do skip tracing of people for debts - before google and facebook - I wonder if I would have found OMW at that time although then I at least had a name and address to start.

Tracking of OMW is on hold per Jennifer's recommendation, but I have one person that may be her - we will see - if needed.


-No excuse, I turned it on (using just the VAR) and heard mundane noise (morning routine getting ready for work) and figured there wouldn't be much there (again the size). Turned it off. It wasn't until I brought into work and imported the files that I saw it was actually almost an hour long - then I listened to the whole thing on highspeed - stopping when I heard WW's voice. This recording was from March 17th - I wonder how things would be different if I had heard this then and reacted to it at the time.


My message - don't be like me. Don't ignore any chance.

Why would that be on hold? That is affair recovery 101.

Is this Dr Harley's daughter, Dr. Chalmers?

Is she NC with her affair partner? Seems like a smoke screen to me. Or like a fog-screen. I don't think in your situation you can look at this without the infidelity aspect.

She is not - and yes this is probably a big part of it.

I don't think it is all of it though. Even if I assume that it is all fogbabble - I still feel that I owe JC for not stepping up on the EN side from day one - if for no other reason than to address my guilt in that regard what can I do?

Yes, and she discussed it with her father, before confirming it with me during our second call.

This is an exception to the normal rule and it is only due to the circumstances - Jennifer negotiated a 3 month period (with my WW) to work with us. She (Jennifer) feels that exposure at this time would end that agreement.

Just to clarify- the tracking isn't on hold - the contact of this person is though - as if I contact...

Thank you

But it IS resentment associated with an affair.

She is in an active affair (as you posted today), and she is unhappy because of it. She may well have been unhappy before the affair, but now that she is in it, she is miserable because of the hurt she is causing to everyone, including herself, and because she can't have OM the way she wants to.

There is no way to disentangle her resentful feelings towards you from her affair fog. Only when the affair is killed dead will you be able to make effective deposits by meeting ENs - and, as we keep telling you, you need to expose to get the best chance to end the affair.

So the agreement included that your wife continue to shag her boyfriend in these 3 months?

At what point will the OM wife be informed?

What are the exceptional circumstances in your case?

How is Jennifer still working with you? Are you in regular contact with her?

I am curious about this too. What are these special "circumstances?"

MelodyLane 1) - no it didn't - but to quote Jennifer - I work on Plan A - and keep my hamster (brain) in neutral - no matter what is happening or what I imagine is happening) I plan A for three months -I dropped the ball on this yesterday though.

2) Once the three months are over if we haven't moved onto recovery I will be doing exposure and going to Plan B. Otherwise - I will be calling the person who I suspect is the OM former W and talking and filling her in.

SugarCane 1) I don't really see any - except for a WW who is really stubborn and Jennifer felt that not exposing at this time to get the three months was better than exposing and getting no time. If you recall early on (I think like post 2 or 3) I let slip the option of exposure.
After yesterday, I am starting to second guess this, and wonder if the three months is worth it.

2) Yes - we talk every other week - part of the call with WW, and then with me. The intent was to show the benefits of Plan A as WW is staying around "mostly just for the kids" and that the changes I am making are solid and worth it.

Isn't she staying because you already threatened to expose to the OMBW when she told you she was going to leave? It sounds to me looking back like you two made some kind of deal to delay exposure in order for her to stay and give you time to Plan A her.

Plan A doesn't work like that - you can't "woo" your BS when she's actively in an affair. You can't hope recovery methods work with a WS who keeps telling you they want to leave and keeps in contact with the OM.

I find it extremely hard to believe that Dr Harley is on board with this plan.

Further it's absolutely sickening to keep another BS in the dark while the affairees are continuing to talk. Seriously, this makes me sick.

SC - I am not disagreeing - as you know at this time I have been told not to expose, by Dr. Chalmers who confirmed this with her father. My failure to not expose early is mine - I own that. Me not doing it now is trying to follow instructions.


The intent of this question was to address resentment in situations where there is no affair - pretend it is someone else asking this question.

If I "Joe Blow" came on here with his unhappy (but not wayward) wife and asked the same question - how can I make up for being an oblivious, lazy husband and address my wife's resentment from the past? What would be the answer?

I hope that I can at least use this to try and make some deposits - no matter how heavily they are discounted.

Three months from when? Who came up with this timeline and what is the reasoning?

You've already been at this since February with no RESULTS. Nothing. And it's because you aren't following Dr Harley's plan. It's really that simple.

This forum is full of threads that have dealt with precisely that problem over the past several years. Have you read any of them?

What I won't do is discuss a hypothetical situation with you, that doesn't apply to you. I suspect that you might looking for someone to tell you that your being nice to your wife, without exposing the ongoing, physical affair to HIS wife, will make your wife fall in love with you and end her affair. I don't think it will.

SusieQ
I agree with the distaste - of not telling OMW. Hence this will happen when the agreed time is done.

I believe you are correct - I was falsely under the impression - with lots of red flags - that there was no contact from late Feb until the sighting in the hall at work in early June.
Then she admitted last week to talking to him on July 4, and then I decided to dig into the VAR recordings in detail and found the call from March 17th.

If there was other contact then those (lets assume there was) then all my effort from February was pointless - and that is something I told her yesterday.

The three months started as of our first phone session with Jennifer -which was June 8th. So September 8th is my deadline - unless WW decides to quite before then.

-Note - I was not trying to resurrect this thread for assistance for me - I posted what I did above as a message to other BS's to listen to those who are experts and share their advice and experience don't waste it like I did.

SC - I am not looking to have someone tell me that - I was asking a question which I understand it too folded into the fog.
Question withdrawn, also yes, I am working my way through some of those threads now - http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2646948&page=7 - this is the thread that got me thinking on resentment - most of it is the BS towards the WS - but I was wondering about the other direction.
Thank you.

You didn't answer this, contact is allowed and still no exposure?

Your WW and OM can make plans to meet and you are not to tell the OMBW? Is that right?

So after 3 more months of Plan A if you DO move into recovery, you are going to do exposure?

Exposure is going to happen EITHER way in three months?

I just want to make sure we have this all clear because I have NEVER heard anything like this EVER endorsed by Dr Harley before.

Does that thread help you? It is about couples supposedly in recovery - i.e. where the affair is verifiably over - where the BS's continued resentment harms their recovery.

How is any part of that relevant to your situation?

I hope she doesn't punch you out for cruelty when you actually do tell her. Do you carry a pistol? You would need it if you did this to me.

You have become a partner in the crime. YOUR actions helped allow this to continue behind the back of the OM's BW.

This is what happens when you don't inform another BS so that they can take steps to protect themselves.

Shame on you.

I did answer (or thought I did) - to quote Jennifer - "no matter what happens for the next three months plan A - in this case it is not a good idea to expose. Your imagination will be your worst enemy here keep it under wraps."
Her and I are not scheduled to speak again until the end of next week. I will ask again at that time.

I am going to no matter what - the last few days, and something WW said last night(more below) have made me re-think the plan to wait until the end of the 3 months and I will ask Jennifer about it next time we speak.

WW told me that she is waiting until she has the ability to support 2 places (our current home) and an place for her before she moves out. This tells me that if I expose now, she can't leave yet. So I could expose - blow my non-existent LB balance and then have a month or so to try and rebuild.

This feels better, and if I have the right person as the OMW then I probably won't get punched - shootings are actually quite rare here except in the criminal circles. Pistols are rare again except for criminals, and enforcement. Nothing against firearms - they are a great tool, just don't need one. I used one enough when I was younger to decide that.

Thank you for sharing - I will repeat the timeline
I recorded a call and didn't listen to it at the time - March 20th
I stupidly believed WW that there was NC until she told me otherwise the first week of June (she told me she saw him)
I set up a call with Jennifer - first one happened June 8th - at that time she told me clearly not to expose
I found someone I believe may be the OMW the last week of June. (this assumes she has already left the home and has been living elsewhere for sometime as it was a different phone# and address).
July 6th WW told me she again contacted POSOM and this prompted me to listen to the VAR from March 20th.
I discover the proof I was looking for (swing for the fences I deserve it).

Threads merged. Please stick to one thread.

Don't base your plan on her words. She is wayward and her words and actions will not be the same.

You are trying to make your own plan, but experience learns plan MB is always better than "plan betrayed spouse". If Jennifer tells you not to expose, don't expose. Meanwhile, keep snooping and try to verify if probable OMW really is OMW. And leave your VAR in strategic places.

Reread the articles in the "begin here" post. It is easy to lose sight of the bigger picture and lose yourself in less important details. Go back to the basics and look for other mistakes you made as a beginner.

Make sure you have your ducks in a row the moment you get green light to expose.

And don't underestimate your LB balance. If the affair goes south (which it will, statistics tell), a good plan A will help her see the marriage she could be in. That you don't see any return on investment yet doesn't mean it is all for nothing.

Ariel,
Sorry what threads? I didn't mean to start another one.

Ok - I see you merged my resentment question - I was leaving
that one to disappear or be deleted.
Thank you.

G2S
Thank you - this is what I was trying to do - I wish I had done it the other way first - and would have if I hadn't disregarded the VAR.

It means her wayward mind is getting more and more entrenched because of his enabling. Plan A without exposure is like attending AA without stopping the drinking.

I see your situation headed the wrong way because the affair has been enabled. The most likely outcome of enabling the affair is that the WS eventually leaves for the OP. The reason is because affairs thrive on secrecy, so the affair has been allowed to thrive and grow all this time. Exposure kills affairs. It can be immediate or it can hasten their death. So the idea of Plan A is to a) kill the affair and b) meet your spouses needs as the the affair crumbles.

By not exposing, you negate the effectiveness of Plan A and do more to enhance the affair.


I would be prepared to explain to the OMW why you did this to her. What is your explanation? It's one thing to squander your own marriage, but why would you sit by idly and allow your WW to do this to an innocent person?

Strongly disagree.

I would at the very least call Dr Harley on the radio show (it is free) and ask him if he's on board with this plan. And if he is, I would be very interested to hear the reasoning because delaying exposure makes absolutely no sense unless you are a conflict avoiding BS.

I have been here for 10 years and never heard him remotely endorse anything like this.

Exposure is critical to ending the affair and starting recovery. There has been no exposure here - that's why the affair continues and no progress has been made. It's really that simple. Delaying exposure has not helped. Why in the world would anyone advocate more delay?

Sounds like Jennifer is trying to negotiate with a WW and doesn't understand this is an ONGOING affair. I do not believe that Jennifer and/or Dr Harley fully understand this situation IF they really did give this advice.

Our last call (Jennifer, WW, and I) was last week, before Jennifer spoke to WW for her part of the call I let Jennifer know that WW had admitted to calling POSOM the day before.
I believe she is aware that WW and POSOM are still in contact. I also told Jennifer that WW had told me she is screaming for affection, but does not want me to fill that EN.

Thank you.

So are you going to expose or at the very least email Dr. Harley?

SusieQ - I will never take objection to being called stupid for missing evidence, or scared to take an action.

Your message with the underlined IF implies a questioning of my integrity - that is a line I will never let be crossed.
I respect and welcome all your advice, but I feel that was way out of line.

Actually the only advice I have not agreed to follow was sending a VAR to work with her - as it would have been useless locked in a cabinet all day and return no value at the risk of being discovered.

Exposure you told me initially to not without proof - I have proof and think I have the OMW and Jennifer has told me not to at this time. I will discuss this with her on our next call.

I have already responded to SusieQ on the implications of questioning my integrity - my intelligence you can question, but questioning if I am telling the truth - never cross that line - that is not something I accept from anyone.

That I will do - just have to do it from home as I won't do it from my work account and have no access to gmail etc from work.
Thank you.

Not seeing any integrity questioning here. I'm just seeing the facts laid out: there are pretty much no situations in which exposure is not your best strategy for starting and hastening recovery.

Nobody ever wants to do that, but it's the case.

Please let us know when you hear back from Dr. Harley.

I'm sorry you feel that way but you've repeatedly deviated from the standard advice right from the first page - you've told us that you can't snoop, you can't find the OMBW, there is not really an affair, it's a one-sided EA, the affair is over, you're hopeful that once your WW works on her depression you can make some lovebank deposits.

You've told us that when your WW told you she was leaving, you threatened her with exposure.

Now you're telling us that Jennifer is talking to your WW and has struck up some kind of deal to delay exposure? And given us no reasoning that makes any kind of sense as to why?

Sorry if I don't have a ton of confidence in what kind of information Jennifer or Dr Harley has. Honestly, I feel you've kind of put Jennifer in a sticky situation by having her trying to negotiate something with an active wayward anyway. That is like trying to negotiate with a terrorist and never works.

This is a plan that is harmful to both your marriage and to the OM's W.

I'm 99.999% sure this is what Dr Harley would tell you too. I'm going to keep coming back here and telling you that unless I hear directly from Dr Harley (email or radio show).

I fail to see the wisdom in threatening someone who is trying to help you.

When you claim to have received advice from Marriage Builders that is so contrary to what Marriage Builders teaches, expect to be questioned. Expecting to be blindly trusted is a wayward mentality. Getting your feathers ruffled and making threats is what liars do. You don't help your case very much when you react that way.

Did you write Dr. Harley yet?

Sorry if it came across as a threat- it was not intended as such - there is no "or else" I am simply not accepting of someone questioning my integrity. People can take it whatever way this wish.

As it has been Jennifer I have been talking to I wrote to her yesterday.
Until I have a response from her I will remain off the boards.
Thank you

Have you had a response yet?

I have clarified with Jennifer that the reason for not exposing at this time is that even with the recording there is no proof that the feelings are mutual between WW and POSOM and that the call if heard by anyone else according to what I heard, would be considered platonic. Again generally speaking Jennifer does agree that exposure is part of a Plan A with infidelity but in this case there is no proof, we are proceeding with a plan A working with an unwilling spouse, and I am working on my LBs and my care for my wife.

Any of my quotes attributed Jennifer were my perceptions / paraphrasing of what I understood Jennifer to have said, i.e. in regards to my �hamster�.

How about monitoring the internet activity of your WiFi router? I am not that tech savvy, but it occurred to me that you might know a way to get some kind of info out of that.

Do you spyware on anything?

Good thoughts, I have just a log of IP address when they connect, and request DHCPs etc. I will see if I can overlay with an actual visit logger etc.
But - most of her connection probably happens using her work BB - see response to the next message.

BrainHurts,
Spyware on the home PCs - they are mine, and that isn't a problem.
Her BB is federal issue - and not accessible to me to install spyware, as is her work laptop, which connects through VPN to her work network. Both those are holes that I cannot plug without risking my job - and future employ ability.

All I can do is keep the VARs in place - and MONITOR IT.

Thank you.

On a related note, On Tuesday I called the number I had for the person who might have been the OMBW - wrong number.
I also called the brother of the person who I though might be the OMBW and left a message for him giving him enough information to determine if she is in fact the wife (or former wife) of the POSOM.
Based upon his age, unless she is about 15 years younger (possible) might not be the correct person. But so far no response back from him, or his sister.

I pulled everything I could find that you told us about Jennifer. You were VERY SPECIFIC that Jennifer negotiated a "delay" of exposure to give you time to Plan A.

You were asked for clarification several times and you gave your answers (in quotes).

You were very emphatic when this advice was questioned - you told me that I had crossed a line asking "IF" this advice had really happened.

You have been gas lighting us and I don't appreciate it one bit.

You have evidence. You have much more evidence than I ever had when I exposed 2 affairs and my sister exposed her WH's affair.

You already tried this "can't expose without evidence" excuse and that was answered. You even posted a "advice to new BS's - make sure you expose once you have the evidence" and TOLD US the evidence that you had (plans of WW and OM making plans to meet).

Do you want me to go pull every single post for this "evidence" issue now too?

Stop this, Allen. Please.

You DON'T WANT to expose. You would prefer to skip over the uncomfortable parts of MB and move over to the EN-meeting part of the program. It is really that simple. That won't work and nobody here is going to let you believe that it will.

Your WW has already told you and your kids that she's in love with the OM and as soon as she can she's moving out. WAKE UP.

The post #2901048 above is exactly as I wrote it with Jennifer last night during our call (so yes Saturday AM her time), and read it back to her for her confirmation that this was accurate.

My W has admitted her feelings for the POSOM to me, she has not admitted any contact etc. I misunderstood the reasons for the delay of exposure. Hence the last line of the above post about perceptions / paraphrasing.

I did not gas light you, I did however mis-understand the reason for not exposing. For that I apologize.

I would like to leave this topic and move on. My goal / plan at this time is to monitor, to dig, and to Plan A to the best of my ability.

I spent last week listening to the radio clips (can I call them podcasts) that are in the Anger Management 101 thread. I still have a few more to go though.

If it isn't possible to leave that and move on, I thank you all for your assistance so far. No matter the outcome it will help me in the future.

Thank you.

You do realize we can go back and read your posts, right? This is in direct contradiction to what you have told us:





You told us on July 10-11th that you had the evidence that she had contacted him, that she had admitted this. You said you had given this information to Jennifer so what you say now is different from what you have been telling us.

I had a thread, and had it removed when my ww told me she found this site.
No idea if she was referring to just the site, or the forum itself.
But I am at a loss so I am going to take a chance, and ask for ideas again.

In brief - dday1 Nov of 2016 - I didn't see it for what it was. Tried to improve, but didn't have the benefit of this site.
dday2 -Jan of 2017 - shortly after stumbled on this site. Made improvements to the best of my ability, eliminated LBs...
We counseled with Dr. Chalmers over the summer - mostly me, as WW didn't want to participate for the most part.
POSOM worked for WW for a couple of years, and moved to another agency (so no direct work connection now - but they can still communicate at will, and of course see each other at lunch etc.)

WW moved out in Oct of 2017 - I was not aware until I returned home and discovered this.

Foolishly I didn't expose until after she moved out.

So why am I restarting a thread (if my old one can be attached no problem)?

I just stumbled across information that proves to me the affair is still strong. WW and POSOM are taking things slow to make sure it works out. She has been in communication with him, seen him at least once that I know of (early last month).

We have two boys one is pre-teen, and the 2nd mid teens. They know about the situation - except that WW and POSOM are still in contact and if I tell them then we are probably just going to have another fight as their loyalties are understandably divided.

Much of WW's support network are enablers and are supporting her actions - the few that aren't are unable / unwilling to say much. Or WW just doesn't listen to them.

WW and I still talk, and if I keep things light get along ok.
I can plan A - but it is limited, offers are for the most part declined, we have some activities that were pre-planned that we still do together, but the scope of those have been reduced to just the event - before it was a date night.

We are currently preparing our house for sale. She never wants to return here - so even if we reconcile it would have to go. I don't want to stay here - memories, and it is a handful to take care of alone.

So - exposure done - but admittedly late - it initially scared POSOM off - then he came back and wrote to me that he loved her and would wait. He involved the police. His STBX when I talked to her didn't really care. She declined to provide any information about his parents or sister. He deleted his FB profile - but none of them were listed anyway.

Currently I am at a loss of what to do next and if it will do any good. Feeling a bit discouraged, but not ready to give up.
I see a few months of possible Plan A time as we prep the house for sale etc.

Is there any information missing?

Suggestions?
Thank you.

You need to finish up exposure. It was not the BWs responsibility to provide you with details for your exposures. If you can't track these people down, I doubt there is any reason for OM to stay away and he will continue to pester the marriage. If that's the case, you should just move to plan D. It's not possible for her to love you until the A is dead, so why should she resist him? Plan A cannot plaster over a shoddy exposure.

In fact plan A IS mostly centered on exposure. Without exposure it's a very unattractive plan doormat. You need to make it plan you don't fear conflict, and are so removed from love busters that you won't be drawn into it.

Who else was exposed to? Can you list them?



This makes me wonder what an earth your exposure to them must have involved. What have you said to them that they have led you to believe they support their mothers affair? If you are fighting with their mother about the affair this could account for them siding with her. Do not fight with her!

Am I right in guessing that you were needlessly vague? If they don't know the affair is ongoing, that's not exposure. It's a vague and confusing half truth.

You should know that you can't make lovebank deposits in plan A. No woman will see you like that while they love someone else.Its more about image.All you can do is hasten the end of the affair with exposure. While doing so you leave the impression that you are someone who *could* make her happy. Don't expect any success until the affair is dead.

Reading between the lines, it's obvious you still haven't exposed. But you already know this which is why you went to the trouble to gloss it over with comments like:


And then you go onto explain you really didn't expose at all:


Which only means they don't know the truth about the "situation."

and



Meaning you didn't give her this intel because she "didn't really care" which also probably means she doesn't know the truth.


And you declined to get the contact information because you never looked hard enough. We went through this with you for months on end when you "couldn't find" the contact information for the OMW.

So anyway, you never exposed the affair but threw these little crumbs in there so we dullards wouldn't ask you about it.

The biggest problem I see here is YOU, because you just absolutely refuse to follow the steps of this program. You wouldn't follow the advice before, you still won't follow it so I don't see the point in posting to you now.

And presumably didn't follow Dr Chalmers advice since this approach is not hers. If he won't follow advice he is paying for, why would he listen here?

Step 1: Tries own method, (appeasement) which doesn't work
Step 2: Finds free online MB advice. Not appeasing enough. So..
Step 3: Maybe if im paying for the advice it will tell me what I want to hear?
Step 4: Go back to free advisors with a story that the scary stuff has already been done and ask how do I appease better?

Every betrayed spouse has given way to panic and fear and done at least step one, but don't you think your own plan is by this point a proven failure?

It's a shame the old thread was removed - it was basically excuse after excuse about how you couldn't expose.

It was very clear to all of us following the thread that you wanted to follow the cozy parts of Plan A - meeting ENs and avoiding lovebusters while avoiding exposure.

You even went so far as to try to get coaching with your WW with Jennifer, pretending that the affair was not active - even with proof that your WW was talking to the OM.

It's very disappointing that you wasted a lot of posters' time and energy.

We have attached both threads at your request.

I posted this to you on 7-11-2017.

Your posts have convinced me this is true. I am no IT expert, but pretty good at finding info on people that does not come up at the first google search. You are way better at it than I am.

How about searching for OM hobbies and interests? He probably posts on some forum. With ius username, you will find more info.

Same goes for your wife. Most people can't stop posting personal info if they think they post incognito. So if she posts on the labradoodle forum, she probably spills info on OM.

What is the OM's marital status? Does he live with his W? Do you know?

In case you don't have time to read back through the thread - the advice he relayed as coming from Jennifer was very confusing and didn't make sense. First he said Jennifer had negotiated a "deal" with the WW to allow Allen to meet her needs and if at the end of the three months, she was still wanting to move out, he could expose at that time.

When we hammered him on why that doesn't work - he came back and said he didn't have enough evidence, which was in contradiction to the other things he had previously told us.

I STRONGLY urged him to contact Dr Harley on the radio show - and shortly after the thread disappeared.

I'm glad the old thread was attached for anyone that wants to read it. It's a good thread showing WHY doing your own "Plan A" with no exposure does not work, period.

indiegirl,
Thank you - if someone in Canada would like to chime in and provide links to a PI that will track down POSOMs parents and sister - I will take it.
Otherwise I am at a loss.
I met him, his children - I did not tell his kids (about 12 and 14) what their dad was doing.
I called and spoke to his wife.
This was done mid October. the week-end after my WW moved out. I had no contact info for POSOMS W (now know she is living in her own place and they have been separated since last spring). I found her as his son gave me the contact info when I stopped at his house.
During the course of my conversation with POSOM he corrected me (I was using a name I thought was his wife's (it was his sisters first name) and he corrected me and told me his wife's name. The next morning he deleted his FB account - his only online presence, prior to this I had downloaded all 52 of his Facebook friends.

In response, he wrote a NC letter to my WW, then the following Tuesday he wrote to me - cc'ing the police, his STBX, my WW, that he has decided to wait. If I have any kind of record (including even just a dispute) this is problematic for work purposes. So he has threatened me with harassment if I contact him or his kids again.

Outside of the above - exposed to:
My family - parents, brother, aunts and uncles.
Our boys were exposed to first and early. They currently move between her basement apt and the house. They were told that WW is in love with someone else - they know who, and that she refuses to stop communicating with him. The week after WW moved out our oldest was angry with WW, but that lasted a few days. They have pretty much just accepted the situation.

On WW's side:
Her brother - who enables
Her oldest friend - her maid of honor - also enables
the other closest friends who have played a role in our marriage and know us both (are in the area) with two exceptions all have been silent or have actively enabled. There is a language barrier between me, and most of these people.


I agree, and understand that Love Bank deposits are pointless presently. And my attempt at exposure didn't work, in fact, her anger and his response seems to have back fired. I have no angle left (short of finding his parents - and hoping that they have some influence) to drive a wedge.

Responding to Mel's post:
I found the information this AM confirming that they are still in contact.
Currently the boys are with WW. I haven't had a chance to let them know that their mom is still talking (and has at least once met him - probably (I hope) for coffee).
Our current child schedule is 2-2-3 so weekends (the 3) are constantly rotating.
This makes it difficult for her to plan meetings and get togethers, she took and apt about 3 minutes drive from me - about 30 from POSOM.

So - I take it to mean - that I should update the boys and tell them that their mom is still talking to POSOM and explain that this will make it impossible for us to have a chance? I was expecting this.

As for the implication that I didn't expose - yes the boys were told clearly that (before the move out, and when I still only had a VAR that could have been platonic) WW had feelings for POSOM. I had made it clear that any contact would hinder any chance we have.
This was done early (about mid-February) and then again during the summer, they asked questions of WW - she was very unhappy that they asked and I didn't deflect, I told them that if contact was still happening it was still damaging to my efforts.

I did give the STBX all the information I had. I explained to her that my WW was POSOMs boss when he worked at XXXX (he has since moved on) and that while they worked together they fell in love. That my WW had just moved out, and that I spoke to her WH the night before and he confirmed that he had feelings for my WW. Her response was - "oh, well I guess I am happy for him. We get along better now, and I don't want to rock the boat." I asked if she would share his parents information or anyone else who might have any influence over him - and she declined, again she didn't want to rock the boat.

As for the STBX contact info - after POSOMs son gave me her phone number and address (oddly he didn't give me her name - he assumed I had it) I worked it backwards. She has an unlisted cell number. Her address is a rental house. No social media (no FB, Instagram, Twitter...) she has a linked in profile, but this gave me nothing other than where she went to school, and that she is a stay at home mom. No employment history. No photos.

Separated - in Canada people (outside of those who are MBers or understand that separated does not mean not married) consider this practically divorced. I have confirmed they do not live together - POSOMs son confirmed this, and gave me her cell # and address.

G2G. Thank you - in this case I feel like a failure - and regret having posted that. I tried those types of searches, before he deleted FB he was a part of a few groups there - related to sports that he likes, no posts on those at all. I understand that his life is full with his work, his boys, and that is about it. He has about 100% custody. So not a lot of time for any activities that aren't with them.
My WW hates computers - this was one of my lbusters in the past - I wasn't fond of repeating myself and she would often ask me to re-explain tech stuff. If given the chance I would now spend days re-explaining how to make a short cut to her.

As far as I know she has FB, and a Twitter for work, she has never enjoyed any online communication other than messenger - I don't even know if she texts, one of her friends teased her in the past that she never responded to them - but no idea now.

She doesn't really have a username - I have created her gmail accounts for her in the past
As for POSOM the only username I have for him was the one from FB.
Thank you.

This post indicates to me why your situation is so far gone. You have had over a year to get this information and have done nothing to get it. That tells me that you have never taken exposure seriously. And that is fine with me, it is your marriage to lose and you are the one suffering the consequences.

Suzie, I have posted on a few threads since I asked for mine to be pulled down and 100% agree with you.

I asked my thread to be taken down as WW came home from work one day about having found the site, and knew all about Plan A, and Plan B and exposure (which I had already let slip really early in this process). I didn't want her to stumble on my thread so I asked it to be pulled.


Let me see if I can be clear on this -
I have a VAR recording from the 20th of March - almost an hour long. This recording did not have any terms of endearment - no I love you, no I miss you...
In it I can hear my WW talking to POSOM about what he did on march break, he spent time with his parents. She tells him that she knows she can be alone if we don't work it out.
Nothing that could stand up and not be seen as me just over-reacting. To make it worse (I admitted this earlier) that I had this recording and didn't realize it. Would it have been enough? I don't think so. But if I had exposed in March - with just that? No idea.

That is all I had until August.
Then I obtained a screen shot of a message where she wrote to him asking if she could call him.

Just today I have confirmed that she is still in "Looove" with him, and that they are taking it slow so it works, I have pretty good proof (sorry I don't want to reveal the source) but it isn't definitive - that they met once (I hope/pray for coffee), and she has confirmed to me that she is in contact. She claims that by me going to see him, I "Practically pushed her in his arms" I took that as fog babble until today.
Since I first came here I searched and was un-able to find his STBX (at the time maybe BW) until I finally threw caution to the wind and went to his home. When I arrived at his home no one was home, as I was returning to my vehicle his children came running down the street. I took the opportunity to ask them about their mother - one of them gave me her cell # and address.

Then POSOM arrived carrying take out. We spoke for over an hour at the end of his drive way (I recorded the conversation). I told him I wasn't going away and that I am fighting for my marriage, I also told him I would ensure he was never accepted by my sons, or by her family. Alas, since my WWs brother is now in a relationship that started as an affair (not married so not an affariage yet) and WW's parents seem to accept thier sons new partner (who at the time of them getting together was married to another man)- and despite my in-laws loving their sons former wife... I don't hold out much hope for that.

Is there anything more I can provide to demonstrate that I agree not exposing is a bad idea - and if nothing else my story will stand as an example of that?

And that I truly did do what I could. The posts that you question - I wrote them with Dr. Chalmers during our call, read it to her, and had her confirm it was accurate before posting it.

MelodyLane - I have said this - and welcome to be contradicted PIs in Canada do not, will not, can not search for people just because I ask them too. If I ask a PI to search for POSOMs parents they need a reason (i.e. unpaid rent, unpaid debts, a runaway child, custody disputes...) before they will do this. We are talking about a couple that are probably in their 70s who moved from Vancouver back to Ontario in the last year and a half or so. I assume that his last name is the same as his sons the mothers probably is as well. I know POSOMs sisters first name, but not her married name - and he had no FB friends with this name. I assume that they now live near, or in the GTA - which using the last name gives me 1080 matches in Toronto alone, or 6379 matches in Ontario.
If I assume that the sister didn't get married - or has a phone listed under her maiden name I have 848 matches.

So please tell me what more I could have done (short of knocking on his door sooner) that I haven't done yet. If I can do it I will. The can is limited to legal limits only.

What you could have done is hired a PI and taken steps to find these people, rather than make elaborate and never ending excuses why you couldn't do those things. You have an excuse for everything. I have been on this board every day for almost 17 years and have never encountered a BS who was so resistant to finding the OP contacts. Never. Out of thousands of people in many different countries.

Anyway, please save the elaborate excuses because I have heard quite enough. I want to add that I think it is too late for exposure to be of any help at all, I just wanted to point out that your situation might have been very different if a more serious approach was taken.

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For example, if it were my marriage and I was serious about saving my marriage, I wouldn't wait over a YEAR to casually inquire if someone could "provide links" to a PI.

That wasn't a causal inquiry - that was done to see if someone has a PI in Canada that will do this - I called several PIs in my city, when I explained what I wanted they laughed at me. Please prove me wrong, give me the number of a PI in Canada that will do this.

But you see, it is not my marriage. It is yours. You can bet your butt I would find a PI if it were my marriage. I can go online and find one right away in Canada that does "domestic infidelity investigations." here So I don't believe there is no PI in Canada that will do a simple background check on a person. Please note you asked for a "link" over a year after the fact.

For any BS that is following, another big take-away from this thread:

1) Do NOT under any circumstances try to work on recovery with a wayward and think that will work without exposure (even if the affair were to die a natural death).

Do NOT try to circumvent Dr Harley's exposure advice by using the Harley kids to try to work on a recovery plan with an active wayward - thinking you can work around the advice on this forum (more on why exposing a WS to MB in any way is a bad thing in #2). I have been here for a very long time and skipping exposure DOESN'T WORK.

Study this thread: Exposure 101 and make it your bible.

2) Do not tell a wayward about MB (this includes a spouse who has an affair that has not been exposed) - sending them here to work on questionnaires or trying to entice them with the cozy parts of MB (I will meet your ENs and I will stop lovebusting you!) thinking this will lure them back to the marriage without exposure.

It will just backfire on you. They will learn about exposure through the website and they will circumvent you by "separating" and telling everyone the affair happened after the separation or they will tell everyone you are crazy, jealous etc. Just getting you to delay an exposure until after they have a chance to tell everyone you are "separating" is a huge blow to the exposure plan outlined in the link above. The steps are laid out the way that they are for a reason! Please don't think you are special and can do things "your" way.

A WS (even if you think the affair is over or they have sworn on a hundred bibles that is over) whose affair hasn't been exposed is not your partner in marriage building. It is a mistake to think so.

Domestic infidelity - yes they have no problem getting proof that your partner is cheating.
They will not find the partner of the other cheater (ie the other betrayed spouse) nor will they find the parents of the affair partner.
A PI to confirm if WW is cheating - no problem - a PI to find the parents of POSOM - that is what I am asking for -and have looked for before. Originally I asked a PI about locating POSOMs W.

Like I told you in an earlier post, you put her in a real bad situation trying to negotiate a recovery plan with an active wayward. I do not believe she had all of the information that we had on the forum and if it was given to her, she might have been confused. The story and excuses changed over and over again - the thread speaks for itself. I can see how that would have been the case, as I myself had to go back and try to make sense of things because I was confused.

Anyway, if one of the Harley kids' advice is different than Dr Harley's advice, I would always tell any poster (like I told you) to write to Dr Harley on the radio show to get his direct advice.

Another mistake that I hope any poster reading will learn from: if your plan in anyway deviates from Dr Harley's plan outlined on this forum (regardless of whether you try to contact one Harley kids for support on a different plan), write to him. He will help you for free.

I find it very hard to believe that a PI does not do basic background checks in a developed 1st world country. I can understand if you lived in a 3rd sh**hole like Uganda or Syria, but Canada is fairly civilized, no?

So, no I don't believe you could not have found a way to locate the OM's family in over a year. You put enormous effort into manufacturing numerous and sundry excuses why you could not FIND the OMW or his family and I am certain if you had devoted that energy to finding solutions that you could have exposed the affair in a timely manner.

People who want to expose find a way. People who don't, don't. Its that simple.

I didn't say they could not find the information - they probably could. But they cannot legally share it with me - there is no valid reason for a PI to give me POSOMs parents information.
Again, if I was mislead on this, and there is a PI in Canada that will locate POSOMs parents - great, prove me wrong. I have admitted when I was wrong in the past, will do so again.

If that were the case, which I highly doubt, I would wonder why you didn't find another way? But I expect you have numerous and varied excuses for that too, no? I don't believe for a moment that background checks are illegal in a developed country.

I am convinced, and have been for a very long time, that you just didn't want to expose, which explains your inability to "find" people, among other reasons.

You didn't want to expose, did you?

This is heartbreaking.

I think you should move to divorcing her. I don't for one minute believe private investigators would refuse to investigate, but I do believe you when you say exposure is impossible for you.

For one thing, it's too late.

Hi Allan, i lived in a small African country when I exposed and there were no "official" PIs. But I still managed to find two different people who would investigate and find information for me in exchange for money - even going into the local army base to track down my car (which my husband took). If you are motivated to do something, there is always a way.

So, a simple yahoo search Canada private investigator produced results in every major city in every province and everyone I looked at referenced investigating cheating spouses.

For heavens sake.....doesn�t ancestry.com exist in Canada? You can search marriage and birth records and identify people and where they live rather easily.

This is just weird. Is your wife super scary?
Or are you lazy?

But hey, it�s your marriage to lose...