Happy New Year, Everyone!!

I have not posted here for about a year. Used to post quite frequently 10 years ago or so while going through my divorce - a really painful time. In most ways, I am past it now, but in others, I can see that it has affected me the most in the way of relationships - namely - lack of any (with men, that is!!) What started out as a period of self-imposed abstinence/journey to a new life of independence, has turned into a long stretch! I have not been in a relationship nor dated anyone since my divorce. Not that I haven't had opportunities - most of them involved men who were married or in relationships, and I refused to go there. (See my last post "Friendship Out of Control - Now What?" that details my encounter with a very attractive man who chased me for almost 2 years, even though he was engaged. (He is now married, and I have had no contact with him since then.) I guess all of the interesting men are married or otherwise involved, it seems!! At my age (54) it is difficult to meet unattached men. Or is it just my fear that keeps me from going there again? I don't go out looking, just live my life, and do things that interest me and hang out with friends, and am active at church, etc. I am beginning to think that I am too independent, and too used to being on my own, and that this may scare away most men. I have a good sense of humor, like to have fun, and look younger than my age. Guys do flirt with me, but it seems that are all attached or much too young!

One good thing though, is that my ex and I have become friends again. He is still married to the woman he cheated with, even though their relationship has been long-distance for about six years. I have no interest in getting back together with him - but it is nice that we can talk again, and get together every now and then. He is actually nice to me now. The trauma of having the person you love most cheat on you, and toss you aside as casually as one throws away trash has me wondering if it is possible to trust again in any intimate relationship. Most people nowadays seen to have an agenda, and as soon as you are not a part of that agenda any longer, they will throw you away. I have seen so much of that behavior that it frightens me. I trusted my (now ex) H and never thought he would behave in such a manner.

At this point - I am still somewhat ambivelent - I would like to have a nice man in my life, but fear losing my independence! Sounds like a typical guy complaint, doesn't it?!

So guys - would you feel uncomfortable about dating a woman who has been celibate/abstinent for a long period of time? And who has been independent for a long period of time?

Lady M,

You asked "guys" to respond, so since I'm a guy, here's my take.

But before I do, please note that my current situation puts me in a position where my opinion and status are questionable, at best. I am on the verge of divorce due to my wife's adultery, which has shaken me to the core. At 58, I now face an uncertain future. The thought of entering the "dating pool" at this age frightens me, to tell the truth.

The reason I felt compelled to respond to your post is that I would think someone who has developed an independence and a comfort level with themselves is much more appealing than someone who needs to have another person in their life to "make them complete." There seem to be so many - men and women - who behave that way.

When I married my STBX, I had been single for 11 years. The number of dates I had gone on you could count on one hand (my first marriage of 17 years fell apart due to my inability to control my drinking. That separation -- which lasted five years before finalizing in divorce -- was the impetus for me getting sober. I am now coming up on 19 years alcohol, drug and tobacco free). That period of relationship "abstinence" was crucial for me to get comfortable being "in my own skin."

A dear friend of mine (now departed) once told me, "Fred, I don't believe God intends for us to be alone. There is someone out there for you. She's just not ready for you, yet. So you have to keep on being the person you were meant to be, and when the time is right, you'll meet her." When I met my STBX, I thought I had. Now I look back and realize part of the problem leading up to her affair was that I wanted so much for her to be "the one" that I bent over backwards and allowed her to abuse me emotionally instead of discussing the problems in our marriage. As has been said here on MB over and over, "We each own 50% of the problems of our marriage, but she/he owns 100% of the decision to cheat on it."

To recap from my wordy response, I think I would much rather date a woman who'd been independently and purposely single than one who'd been bouncing from relationship to relationship (and there are plenty of those around. I even married one, much to my chagrin). I think you have every reason to hold your head up, chin out and be proud of being the person who sticks to your principles. And that means you can also be choosy about who you decide to spend your time with. Good for you!

Lady M, I am interested to see what your responses are as I have been single since Nov 02 and can count the number of dates on one hand. Have male friends and do get hit on and flirted with when I go out with friends. Have conversed extensively with guys from online dating sites, but... nothing.

I like you am very independent and financially secure, I don't need a man in my life, I would like to have one. I don't want them to give up their independence and spend all of their time with me, nor do I want to give up my independence for them, I don't want to change my life just add a man to it!!!!

Fred, You said that you would think that men would be attracted to an independent women and they are not I am here to tell you, it scares them and I don't understand how that is. Anybody else able to add to this?

I'm not Fred. I'm not even a guy! But I am really hoping what he says is true, because I'm 38 and probably going to end up divorced here in the near-ish future. I'll probably be like you... purposefully single, rather than bouncing in and out of relationships.

You'll have to keep me posted on your journey... I'll be rooting for you.

Wolf, not Cougar
Why wolf? Wolves mate for life.
I'm in a place I never thought I'd be...

Ladies,

Propriety (and the law) prevent me from asking either of you for a date. And since it was The Leopard's lack of boundaries that brought me to this forum, I guess that makes me safe to converse with.

Prior to my marriage to The Leopard, I had a brief relationship with a woman who was intelligent (she had a Masters in math; I have an MBA in Technology Management), articulate, a great cook, a terrific gardener, active (a runner, like me), had a larger home than mine, and kept it clean and well maintained and was quite self-sufficient. I found her fascinating, scintillating and intellectually stimulating. She could explain quadratic equations while the two of us sliced and diced our way to pork tenderloin with homemade peach salsa.

In my opinion, any man who would be turned off by such a woman has real issues with his own self-esteem (read: manhood). The Leopard exhibited many of these same qualities at first, which is what attracted me to her. Unfortunately, after the honeymoon wore off, The Leopard's other attributes rose to the surface and quickly overshadowed (or completely put lie to) her finer qualities. Nonetheless, this is one man who is not looking for a "mommy substitute," or for someone to be "barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen." I like to think of myself as intelligent, well-traveled, conversant on a lot of topics, inquisitive and open to new experiences. I seek the same in a woman, because after all, isn't a relationship about sharing experiences?

If you read Dr. Harley's list of Emotional Needs, don't the majority of them have an element of shared experience to them?

Ladies, can I now turn the question around to you? Both of you have suggested men aren't interested in you because of your independent natures. Have you considered the possibility that you are sending out subliminal "keep away" messages? If I were single, and having admitted my preference for the qualities you display, how would you let your interest and availability be known to me?

I wouldn't express my interest, 'cause I'm still married and hoping for the miracle that WH pulls his head out of his [censored] and comes through his mid-life crisis and other issues as someone I'd want to be with. My word is golden until those divorce papers are signed.

However, I WOULD jump up and down with glee to introduce you to my aunt Judy in MN. Dead serious, dude.

Actually, on a more serious note... I have absolutely NO idea how I'd express interest to a guy I liked. I'm totally clueless. My story is on another thread. I've never been single, really... and now thanks to WH's cheating, abandonment, alcohol problems and long term porn addiction my self-esteem is in the crapper. I have lots of guy friends. I can't imagine dating any of them. I'm the wrong person to ask because I'm a total mess. At least I *recognize* I'm a total mess and I have a lot to do before I'm ready or able to date. There's no way in Heck I'd use some perfectly nice guy just to gratify my ego and make me feel better about myself right now.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Wolf_not_Cougar. But I did say that legally (I'm still married until the end of April at the earliest) I couldn't do that, and philosophically I wouldn't do that, because that would then lower me to The Leopard's level.

No, after the divorce, I'm going to take it very slow before diving into the dating pool. I'm going to get my "sea legs" first. As I wrote in my thread on Surviving an Affair, I just took a solo trip to Iceland for New Year's Eve. I want to feel comfortable in my own skin again before bringing my baggage, trust issues and PTSD that The Leopard caused in me by her actions.

My interest was piqued by this topic, however. And my surprise at learning that women (plural = more than one) believe men are not attracted to secure, confident, able women. I have to wonder: Am I the odd one because I do find them attractive and appealing, or is there some other dynamic at work here that none of is aware of, or is including in the conversation?

Wow - thanks everyone for your replies.
Wolf - I read your other post - your story broke my heart - I have felt the same as you - like I was thrown away like trash he no longer had use for. Like you, I have trust issues, too.
Fred - interesting observation - one that I have also considered, given the depth of the pain my ex-H caused, and the way that has colored my view of relationships. I am a very friendly, open person, with many friends, both male and female. If an truly eligible man approached me, I would definitely give him a chance, but definitely take it slow, and become friends, getting to know each other first before becoming intimate. That's another thing - a lot of guys want to become sexually involved rather quickly, and lose interest if you don't feel the same way. I for one, will not be rushed!! But as I mentioned, it seems that only the ones already attached seem to approach me! Perhaps, too - I am too picky!! I am interested in being with a man who is intelligent, well-read, kind, with a sense of humor, and will treat me like a lady. Seems hard to come by!!
If the man that I mentioned (who was engaged but pursued me) had been unattached, I would have definitely been interested in dating him, and getting to know him better. even though he was 10 years younger than me. He did not seem to be fazed by my independence, or the age diffence.

Lady M, you have given me hope that the woman for me still exists! For whatever reason, I consider myself somewhat of a throwback: I believe in holding the door, helping a woman with her coat, standing when a woman enters, and all of the "old fashioned" values that seem to have been deemed out of vogue.

As for the sexual aspect, I have never been the aggressor in a new relationship. I have always preferred to let the relationship grow, and when sex becomes a part of it, it is by mutual agreement.

Last night I was listening to a radio talk show and the host commented that today's role models as created by Hollywood are typically vapid, immoral, conscience-lacking "skanks" (I don't know what the male equivalent of "skank" is, but whatever it is, it applies as well). We are inundated by a constant barrage of actors, athletes, politicians and business people conducting the most heinous of immoral and unethical acts. Only rarely are we given a glimpse into the lives of the truly moral and outstanding people, like the Rev. Billy Graham.

Let me repeat to you something that was said to me a number of years ago. I don't often remember things verbatim, but this so struck me that I've remembered it to this day. It was told to me by a dear, now-departed friend:

When I met The Leopard, I thought this "prophecy" had come true. What I now realize is that I so wanted it to be true that I ignored and overlooked the that should have alerted me to keep waiting. Now it turns out I'm back in that position with a few more wrinkles on my face and a few new scars on my heart.

I started out this response by declaring that you have given me hope! I would like to think I can offer you the same hope.

If it were a different time and a different place, I think I would like to talk with you more. As it is, we will have to confine our interactions to this site. Have faith!

Wow, your WH reads just like mine! Except I'm a few steps ahead of you...divorced for 6 weeks now. You might be surprised at the men who come out of the woodwork once you are divorced. What about you is a mess?

Fred - it is nice to hear that some "throwbacks" still exist!!

I'm sorry that you have joined the ranks of those of us whose spouses thought so little of us (and of themselves, as well) that they thought cheating was the answer to their marital and/or personal problems. As we know, it is never the answer - it only becomes a complication, one that causes untold pain.

I know it sometimes seems that the pain will never end, but it does. It took me a very long time to get over my ex-h's actions, but I can honestly say that I am much better off now - I no longer am in an emotionally abusive relationship, a relationship where he used emotional blackmail in order to get me to think, feel, act, be, and do what he thought I should, with no regard for my feelings or wishes. The funny thing is, he is now really nice to me, and we have become friends again. Why couldn't he have been nice to me when we were married?!

I am much happier now, being on my own. I have control over my life, and make my own decisions. I have done really well at managing my household, my finances, my career, social life,etc. Which of course, is part of what has brought me to this point - my questioning of what if I am past the point of being able to be in a relationship - possibly at risk for "Independent Behavior", and of meeting appropriate potential partners.

LM, do you let it be known to your family and friends that you are interested in a relationship? Maybe men don't ask you out because they think you don't want to date---especially if you have not dated in a very long time.

I don't want to hijack anyone's thread, so you can read my story Wolf, not Cougar asks about dating after divorce here and Wolf, not Cougar's whole story here.

I'm having a hard time feeling worthless,and even getting back on my feet again. I have a chronic pain condition, and lots of scars... physical and emotional. I'm average looking, kind of nerdy in my interests and I can't imagine anyone would want me with the baggage I'm carrying now. Before all this I was confident, playful, passionate and affectionate ... very much a "glass half full" kind of person. But I doubt and question everything and everyone now. I'm doing all the right stuff.. CoDA, AlAnon support groups, individual counseling, etc. Good things have come from all this, but I don't know if I'll ever be able to love someone with my whole heart again, and I'm so angry at WH for squandering my trust and innocence, I guess.

Just trying to take it day by day.... but yeah, I'm a mess.
Wolf, not Cougar
Chel

Ok someone asked if we are sending signals "stay away".

I might have in the past, but believe that I have addressed the issue and smile and say Hi or nod to those that are of interest to me. I don't want to encourage someone that is not of interest to me!!!

But still nothing, I've talked about this before on this site. And have done the things that were suggested to me. I am not going to lower my standards as I want someone of quality in my life. I have waited this long, I am not going to settle.

I am just blown away by how easily some people come and go in relationships, and think why not me and then I look again at the quality of the relationship and go "oh Yeah!!"


I now that I am worth it, I have been told that I am an amazing person and have great qualities. Does that scare guys away, that they may not be of quality? I look for people that are going to add value to my life and that is who I associate with.

I know that the journey is to be part of the fun getting to the destination, but come on I have to have someone to journey with me!!!!!

Just my thoughts!!!!

Yeah, about the "stay away" vibes...

One of WH and my mutual friends mentioned that to me the other day. He said that I'd always had a "stay away" vibe that kept people I didn't know at arm's length... until I got to know them. Then, I welcome them.

He also has observed that since WH abandoned me this last time, that I've reached out, and developed stronger and deeper relationships with my other friends... like him and his wife, for example.

I can only speak to my experience, but I've THOUGHT I was always pretty friendly. But who really knows how other people see you?

Wolf, not Cougar
Chel

On the question of independence being a turnoff, I think I can shed some light. It certainly doesn't have to do with intelligence, ability to take care of yourself, or that you have an established social life. I want to be needed by my SO, and if you're sending the message that you don't need me, it's just for fun, I'm not interested. I don't want to chase and try and create a need that isn't there, or put up an image of someone I'm not like some sort of peacock.

Looking at my ex, I think it's safe to say that she wasn't all that independent, but she did not want to give me the feeling that I was needed, that she couldn't just take or leave me. As it turns out, she could!

As well, I think it has alot to do with what my ENs are, or perhaps a lack of confidence. I;m not sure.

I guessing I'm not really shining much light afterall.

WnC, when The Leopard pounced and my world was turned upside-down, she told me that one of my/our friends had told her (for some reason, she felt it necessary to tell others before she told me) that I wouldn't reach out to others in my pain; that I would just withdraw into my own personal shell.

And he was right. That would have been my first reaction! Recognizing this, I knew instinctively that this would have been the absolute worst thing I could do. So, much like I have done here, I have gone against my primal instincts (or perhaps they were learned at an early age? Something to ponder later) and done what I wouldn't have ordinarily done.

The results have been amazing. I have found friends I didn't know I had. I found friends I thought I had who wouldn't pee on me if I was on fire. Everything I thought I knew about myself and others has turned out to be quite in error.

My point is that one of the key reasons I stay on MB even when I realize my marriage is probably destined for the dustheap, is that it helps me examine myself, and address my personal character defects that prevent me from being the best person and partner I can be.

Introspection is very tough for some people. I'm not unfamiliar with it, but it's like peeling an onion: For every layer I strip off, another layer lies underneath waiting to be inspected.

dk, I have thought about that, not needing a guy but just wanting one!

I get that guys need to be needed. But do I have to give up my independence for them to feel that I need them? Shouldn't we just be able to compliment each other and add value to each others lives with our on strengths?

I guess that is what I am wanting and looking for, maybe that doesn't exist, I don't know!!

My independence was probably a part of the demise of my marriage. As the x figured I was strong enough and independent enough to handle life and kids on my own and that the GF was so weak that she wouldn't survive without him!

Oh well, I am with Fred as to being here on MB and growing, I've been here on and off for a long time and grow each time that I post!!!! I encourage people to come here all the time!!! Even if they don't save their marriages they save themselves!!!

OK. I will weigh in here for you ladies. I am a guy, 42 years old. I am not "fresh" from the disintegration of my marriage either.

An independent woman? That is a short description. But here is my take - relationships work when people are equally yoked. And this is across the board - spiritually, sexually, emotionally, intellectually, physical activity, etc. If you are equally yoked in all those areas, it will work.

An independent woman? Doesn't scare me, in particular, I like it. I have single male friends who hate it.

Why? I think because I am very secure in myself. I don't need to be buoyed up to be happy. And a woman who DOES, to me, feels clingy and needy and basically feels like a weight.

Have I ended relationships with independent women? YES. Why? All the ones I ended were not because they were independent, but because they felt they needed to PROVE it all the time.

I can fix cars. I have the knack. My last GF was independent, and she would call and let me know she had her car fixed. I'd say "Honey, you should have called me, I could have done it for you and saved you some money..." She would respond "I don't want you to think I need to depend on you..."

That really was annoying. I KNEW she didn't need to depend on me. I knew how much money she made, she was good with her money, she HAD the money to have her car fixed. But what she did, was remove an opportunity for me to bless her, to show her I loved her by performing an act of service (one of the 5 love languages, GREAT book BTW).

And on and on it went. She was so dead set on proving to me she didn't need me that it didn't work. I wanted someone to SHARE with, that INCLUDES bad things. I wanted a partner on whom I could lean, and she could lean on me back. (I allowed her to do things for me that I could do myself as well, I took it as a sign of love).

So there you go... An independent MAN will be fine with an independent woman - just watch for that pitfall.

There are men who want a woman who needs them. A close friend of mine is like that. He has to constantly rescue his girlfriend (I guess in order to shore up his own self-image, I wouldn't know, I can't figure it out). So they are out there. Those guys are NOT going to want an independent woman.

The current lady I am interested in is also very independent, but we play to each others strengths very well. Things I rock at, she lets me do for her, and vice-versa. As a sign of love. Because it is nice to help out your partner.

So....

BE independent, but don't shout "I'M INDEPENDENT!"

Understand?

NCW, I'm kind of offended by the implication that wanting to stay away from independent women is some sort of sign of insecurity. However, I think we really don't have a good definition of independent, are thinking of different characteristics.

I do agree with most of what you say though regarding wanting to be interdependent on each other.

daybreak, I honestly don't think you have to stop being capable of handling life on your own. That just isn't what it's about with me (and maybe guys like me). The way you present wanting and needing makes you think that you're not really wanting to invest yourself too much, or you want the guy to invest himself heavily before you do. That's fine, but my take is to just not get involved with that. I don't want to risk that much upfront, I'd rather not get too involved myself. I guess after time, you start to figure out which ones are likely to invest in you, and which ones won't atleast not for a long time.

NCWalker,

I do get it, and I agree with you, and that is what it is I am looking for, being there for one another and as you said shoring each other up. Finding that guy is the hard part, and I am just not into seeing how many frogs I can kiss before finding that prince.

But I know that there is a guy out there for me, he just hasn't crossed my path yet!

I'm in the exact same position as Lady M in her first post. I can totally relate.

I've been divorced for 20 years and haven't even been asked out on a date. How's that for a boost of self esteem? I'm now in my late 50's but attractive, well dressed, great job, fabulous apartment that I own, no debt, drive a beautiful car, not a cheater (husband was and left me for OW that he's been married to now for around 15 years), I'm independent and don't "need" someone, I just don't relish the idea of spending the rest of my life alone but here I am all these years after divorce - alone. Unless and until the right one comes along, I don't intend to settle.

I've been doing the online dating thing which gets a bit exhausting at times but I'm giving it a try. I've met some nice men (my radar is very attuned to tossers and cheaters!) but no chemistry or sparks with any so far.

I just wish that I could find some AGG's and Fred in VA types where I live. AGG to me is the epitome of a smart, wise and savvy man. No wonder you got snapped up AGG!!! What a great catch. I still remember your trials with "G" a coupla years ago with all her "stuff". I was so glad you moved on from her.

dkd,

Wasn't implying that. Was only stating that I like independent women, and I don't understand guys who don't.

There are nice guys out there who want a dependent woman. I don't think one can equate nice guy with wanting an independent woman, or bad guy with wanting needy woman. I have seen all four possibilities.

It does suck, dating, once you are out of college, the big pool of potential people is very small. And it takes so much time to date, that it is really frustrating to even go on one that is a no.

Would have been easier to fix the marriage... :-D

I'm on board with this, too. I think I married The Leopard too hastily because I was afraid to lose her. Prior to our relationship, the only recent experience I had was as the "rebound romance" with a woman who kicked out her commitment-phobic boyfriend of five years who then took him back the moment he "realized what he was giving up."

Other than that, my experience of dating was that either the women I was attracted to had no interest in me, or vice-versa. It can be frustrating, indeed.

I still remember going on a "blind date" that a good friend had set up. The woman was an attorney - a public defender - and quite the independent woman. I took her to lunch at a Thai restaurant. Toward the end of lunch, she rose to go to the powder room and I stood up as she did.

She nearly leveled me with her "don't patronize me" speech. This is an example of what NCW spoke of earlier. I was simply rising respectfully as I'd been raised to do, but this woman took it as an insult to her self-gained independence and took it as an insult.

Needless to say, there was no second date.

Awwww, that's very sweet, even if not fully deserved . My goodness, "G" was a nightmare in the making, and I am also glad that I was able to shake it off and move on. She contacted me about a month after I got married to see where "things were" with me, at which point at told her that I am happily married. I suspect she's still in the same limbo she was back then.

So since all this was before your registration date, I am curious what your username was back then???

BTW, I totally agree with your outlook of not wanting to settle but also not wanting to be alone all your life. Dating is a numbers game, and the more Mr. Wrongs you'll meet, the closer to Mr. Right you'll get! Folks don't like hearing that, but it's true - when you find Mr(s) Right, you'll really appreciate just how wrong all the previous Mr(s) Wrongs were. it's like night and day.

AGG

You said the same thing on my thread. I have been mulling it over...makes sense.

Not my marriage. Ugh.

As to the dependent woman....Hmmm....I don't like thinking of myself as dependent even though I've been a SAHM homeschooling my son for 10 years. I'm capable of working-clearly will have to some day, but I definitely attract men who want to take care of me. And I have to say there is a certain appeal to that. I liked taking care of husband/child/house/home/yard while XH made the money. I appreciated his contributions but he never appreciated mine.

I would like to slap women who do this stuff.

I have never understood the rationale behind acting so churlishly to someone who is being considerate. I hold the door for others. I give up my seat for old people and pregnant women. It's called manners, not patronization.

Just what I was thinking. The man I went to dinner with last week held my coat for me to get into...guess I should have punched him. Not.

This has always been my registered name AGG, I just never posted (still don't) very much and just lurked for a long time reading all the stories and educating myself. Being divorced for almost 20 years and no dates, I didn't think I had much to contribute to a board like this. I just always pounced on your posts because you spoke such common sense and logic.

I stumbled on this board only a few years ago and I have learned more here about relationships and human psychology in general than any University course could have taught me. I know that I could have saved my marriage had I known about mb and all the concepts back then. I was totally clueless and did everything the wrong way when I found out my WXH was cheating. I was of the school not to make waves, play nice and don't expose in case it made him angry and drove him further to her. Well duh, that certainly worked as he left me and married (and still is) the OW.

So I just post when I see something that I can relate to and Lady M's initial post on this thread certainly spoke to me. I could have written it!

And as like is drawn to like, I mix with other single (mostly divorced), independent, attractive, fun, successful women with their own homes, great jobs, don't hang out in bars, all of whom have difficulty meeting a like minded man. We certainly don't sit around wringing our hands about "there's no good men left", but it would be nice.........

I love the gentleman thing and always make a point if a man holds the door, or generally acts in a chivalrous manner toward me, I make sure I say something like "why thank you, not too many gentlemen left in this world". They LOVE it! Don't know about punching your date Smiling Woman, but I'd certainly want to punch Fred's!!!! No wonder the guys get confused!

I don't frequent many forums or message boards at all, but this one has the most amazing people imaginable and I just love it. When I read the SAA sad stories, I get totally gobsmacked by the time and patience members who have BTDT take to help the newbies with trying to save their marriages.

"Gobsmacked." I like that.

I'm an Australian - we talk funny Fred!!!!

And good luck with The Leopard today Fred. Stupid waywards who don't know when they've got it good till it's way too late. She'll find out the hard way.

Maybe. She's had hard times all of her life. I think she may have a personality disorder that keeps her in the role of "professional victim."

She's left a wonderful home in a wonderful neighborhood with wonderful neighbors, her family, her children, her career and sacrificed her health to be with a married man, a father of three, whose wife won't grant him a divorce and who recently underwent prostate cancer surgery. This weekend, she will move her belongings into a small apartment (and storage for that which won't fit), while she pursues a menial job to obtain a cash flow, since her credit rating is non-existent, she owes money to the tax man, creditors and medical care providers, and in two months will either have to find the money to purchase her car from me or I take it back.

And she hasn't "found out," yet. Can you blame me for not wanting to wait to see the last of her back when she leaves this weekend?

ok fred now if we reversed genders on your WW and her OM that would be very VERY similar to my situation.

I am probably a little late to be commenting on this thread but i wanted to share my two cents for what is worth. I have experienced what these ladies have and i feel that your opinion Fred of liking independent women is found in the more mature crowd. I am not trying to offend any one but i am 28yrs old, own two properties, have a two year old i have custody of, many differnt volunteer activities, and work as a professional. When guys that i meet through work or out with other friends (not to date btw just in passing or as potential new friends) find out information about me either in converstation or my friends trying to set me and thinking this maybe attractive information for them... the men are shall we saw a little taken back and astonished at my accomplishments. Now i am not a flashy person when it comes to these so even typing this on here makes me feel weird. I am very modest about myself and just want to fit in with other people around my age, and i do with my friends who have known me for awhile.

I too have this fear that because of my independence will drive away any potential dates when i am ready. I see the response from guys who have just met me and aren't even there to date me. It's almost as if they are afraid that because i make more money and can do all of this on my own that i wouldn't want them around or something.

I don't understand this connection between preference for independent women and maturity. So all these guys that are turned off with your independence are automatically immature?

In my experience, the women who tend to be more independent tend not to be to commited to the relationship. They are less likely to stay and work on a issue or even consider the fact that maybe they could make a change to help get past the issue. As well, if they earn significantly more money, or have parents that do, there is a lifestyle adjustment to be made.

Now, I'd also turn away from a completely dependent person. I've dated someone before who would avoid all conflict and completely change herself to fit me better.

Honestly though if I were you, I wouldn't pay that much attention to these guys reactions. If you're interested in them, show it, and they'll respond. As you said, they probably think you could possibly be interested in them.

[quote=dkd]I don't understand this connection between preference for independent women and maturity. So all these guys that are turned off with your independence are automatically immature?

i was trying to be polite as in saying the older crowd.

In my experience, the women who tend to be more independent tend not to be to commited to the relationship. They are less likely to stay and work on a issue or even consider the fact that maybe they could make a change to help get past the issue. As well, if they earn significantly more money, or have parents that do, there is a lifestyle adjustment to be made.

Yes and no on agreeing with this. I believe it all depends on the person. From my expierence i grew up in a lower middle class to almost poor family. I worked very hard to get where i am. All of my friends are in the working class and make substantially less then i do and it is not an issue. I may have money now, but meeting me you wouldn't be able to tell unless you saw where i live or someone told you. I live a very meek lifestyle.


Honestly though if I were you, I wouldn't pay that much attention to these guys reactions. If you're interested in them, show it, and they'll respond. As you said, they probably think you could possibly be interested in them.

you could be right and i will when i am ready for that part of my life to go on. I hope i am wrong and there is someone out there that wouldn't be scared off.[/quote]

I will throw my hat in the ring to give you my perspective.

Male - 54
Canadian
Separated 1.5 years (in Canada it is just a formality to file the papers with the court to legally dissolve the marriage.)

Getting back in the dating pool - I look at the prospect of dating with a degree of nervousness. I am not slick or polished when it comes to dating. One of the things my STXW told me was she felt I was quite intelligent but she was not sure if she wanted intelligent. She was now looking for someone rugged, outdoorsy and simple. (Go figure - I always hoped intelligence was a good thing) I feel I am honest, sincere, hard working, and loyal. It was not my idea to separate. I feel like a fish out of water, and I am not even sure where a person would go to meet someone these days. So like you I am not sure how to proceed, or if I should proceed.

It seems to me after going through a divorce we carry baggage. We do not come away unscathed. We have been wounded. It takes time to recover. If I am honest, I can think of nothing that has affected my self confidence and self esteem like this has. I think there are many walking wounded. We function but are we subconsciously transmitting "stay away" when we think we are signaling we are available?

I feel the same way. Where does one go to meet unattached women. We are no longer in school or university where we often get the opportunity to meet a large number of unattached women and men. Typically everyone is theoretically available when we first start looking. But now...... is an internet dating site the only avenue? That has little appeal to me.

Right. It will not be the same ever again the way I feel now. The wounding leaves scars that may take a long time to heal, if ever. Somehow when we are reluctant I think we give off that vibe, that we are not all that enthusiastic, perhaps pensive, and that can be interpreted as not interested. Couple that with the bruised ego from rejection and everyone has the opportunity to be a wall flower. The antidote for this I believe is to take a chance and be willing to get hurt again. It seems the alternative is to grow old lonely.

I don't think celibate or abstinent for a long period is the issue if you are willing to alter the course to adapt to a new committed relationship. When I hear the word independent, I sometimes feel the word "angry or stubborn" could be substituted. I have had a conversation with a fellow who was looking in Asia for a relationship as he felt that so many of the women he met her seemed angry or upset.

I think the bottom line is we are all looking for a committed relationship where the other person cares about our well being and welfare. The hope would be the ability to fall in love again. I think a person who has been cheated on has to guard against being cynical about a potential new partner. And I do think we are all afraid to a degree, as time is moving on, and that means the opportunities to recover if we are not successful (choosing poorly) in the new relationship, means we may not get another chance to find love.

So for you ladies who are interested in taking a risk help us poor fellows out and wear a sign or help us to know you might be interested. Some of us have never been good at reading between the lines and daylight is burning. I hope my response helps provide a modicum of insight into the male mindset.

Good luck.

BCBoy

I hear you BCBoy but I'm mortified at the thought of being considered "angry and/or stubborn" when I describe myself as "independent".

Independence to me means being able to rely on myself completely without "needing" a man to complete or look after me. I think if you're in that situation, you can set yourself up to make some pretty poor relationship choices due to the neediness and having to have "someone/anyone" in your life to look after you.

I am soooooo not an angry or stubborn person - I have a very sunny and positive nature.

I also get you re the online dating thing. I'm totally out of my comfort zone doing it but when you don't cross paths with potential mates in your everyday life, it really isn't a bad alternative. I haven't been doing it long and even though I haven't met anyone as yet that I want a second date with, the guys I have met have been decent human beings just looking for the same thing that we all are. I'm fairly ambivalent about it though. As AGG says, it's a numbers game, which it is. If someone special comes along, great, but if not, well that's OK too.

Perception is the problem! Everyone perceives Independent as something different, not needing someone else to complete me is how I perceive Independent. Someone else said "angry/upset". Others see it different then that.

I guess we just need to be careful in how we put our independence out there.

Someone suggested that us ladies were signs saying "available". Perhaps we should design a button that says available or perhaps we could have T shirts made up with "I am available" on it. What about you guys showing that you are interested without using some cheesy come on line? Just a thought.

The online thing isn't so bad, just keep in mind that the journey is to be the fun!!!

Hi Lady M,

IMHO, just because you chose not to date for a period of time this does not make you seem odd, quite the opposite, it makes you stand out from the crowd.

When I started my single life again, I met plenty of people that had commenced dating since the moment their partner was out of sight, some well before, my Ex for example, LOL;-). Sadly, most of them never had a chance to properly heal / address any outstanding issues and so they tended to get in a relationship to feel validated or purely so they didn't have to be alone. I met plenty of people that seemingly had one trainwreck of a relationship after another. When I pointed this out, some actually agreed but continued the behaviour.

As a male, looking for a female partner to form a serious relationship with, someone like yourself stands out and is both very attractive and a rare find. You should be very proud of yourself rather than questioning yourself!! As you are no doubt aware, when you are "ready" and the right person comes along, things have a way of happening.

My take on it is this.

I love a woman who can stand on her own two feet, has a career, has her act together, etc etc. That is what I call independent. And yes, I just married a woman like that.

On the other hand, I have no interest in a woman who exudes the "I don't need anyone" attitude. That can be called independent too, but as others said, that is the kind of woman who will likely bail at the first sign of trouble. And yes, I am divorced from a woman like that.

Let's not forget that "Independent Behavior" is a major Lovebuster in Harley terminology. So behaving independently is not something to aspire to in a relationship, IMO.

AGG

AGG, I think you just nailed it!

I'm dating a woman who has been celibate for a long time. I like taking it slow. Somebody mentioned earlier about being on the same yoke... I think that is the most accurate thing I've read... It's finding somebody out there right for you.

Problem is, if you are not out there playing the game, you'll never find him.

A new friend that I have only meet online, yes thru a dating site sent me this today, I had to laugh. I've seen this before and just kind of forgot about, but thought it would be appropriate to post here.

Lady M and all other independent women on MB this is for us!!!!

�Girls are like apples...the best ones are at the top of the trees. The boys don't want to reach for the good ones because they are afraid of falling and getting hurt. Instead, they just get the rotten apples that are on the ground that aren't as good, but easy. So the apples at the top think there is something wrong with them, when, in reality, they are amazing. They just have to wait for the right boy to come along, the one who's brave enough to climb all the way to the top of the tree...�[color:#FF0000][/color]

thar ya go... anything worth having is worth fighting for

And don't forget:

"Boys are immature, guys are jerks, men are rare."

So it may take a while for one of us to climb.

In my opinion, a lot of these analogies fall short. So if you're not independent, you're a rotten apple? And sticking with the analogy, a woman does have a choice of whether she wants to be at the top or the bottom of the tree...and still be a quality apple. If you want a guy to take a risk on you, is it to much to ask for you to take a little risk yourself?

Many of these fellas who aren't taking the risk on you...it's because they've fallen themselves. Perhaps it's because they've had spouses who've destroyed their confidence. Whether they are fully healed or not, it makes sense that they would be cautious about taking a risk again. So in a way, it's a catch-22, which kinda makes it even better when you find the right one in a way.

I guess often equate independence with a lack of availabilty. I had a couple casual dates with a lawyer a few months ago. She was beautiful and smart and fun to be around. Only problem was, she did not want to make time for anyone. She was a mother of 2 boys, working, had local family, lots of friends, and want her time to herself. All fine and good, but she did not want to make time for dates more then once or twice a month. I didn't want to try to fit into that, as I would want more. We're still friends and I respect her a lot for what she wants to do. If I could get on along with the limited contact, I would, but that's just not me.

I'm not saying I want a woman who physically/mentally can't get along without me. Not at all. I just don't want to present my needs to my SO and have them be ignored because she's got better things to do. At the same time, I wanted to be able to be a positive in my SOs life...and if I can't fit in, what's the point?

dkd you are right we don't know what is in the other persons background, they may have fallen and are trying to pull themselves back up. We do need to be careful in what we say and do, and even when they do have the cheesy come on line, we must wonder why it is they are using that!!!

Man this dating stuff is so hard!!!!! Did we stop and think about so much when we were younger? Probably not!!! Are we being more careful who we spend time with? Our time is more precious now then it was the first time around as we have more commitments to family, work, friends and we are trying to fit one more thing into life!!!

As I have stated before and many others have also it is a numbers game and the more people you meet the better the chance of meeting "the one"!!!!

Personally I pray for Mr. Right to knock on my door holding a sign saying "Dawn, I am Mr. Right, how are you?" But then what fun would that be?

Dawn

It all comes down to being equally yoked.

dkd made the right call. The lawyer was not equally yoked.

It's OK if your needs aren't being met for a time, but like Harley says, you won't get the love bank deposits. Only a matter of time before someone else steps in. If there is a reason she was unavailable, well fine, but it better be POJA'd (or the dating equivalent of that...)

Why is it hard now? Because we KNOW. When we were kids, we didn't. Also, I don't know about the rest of you, but I have primary of my 3DS, and a job. I don't have a lot of TIME. Back in college, I could while away a couple of afternoons a week. Right now, 8 straight hours of time that is ONLY mine, THAT's precious.

Yeah it's harder. And because of time being unavailable, it takes more days on a calendar to identify a "no".

Fortunately - I HAVE learned I don't need a partner to be happy, but I DO want someone to share with.

And that is it wanting someone!!! Not needing someone to be happy!!!!

Hi Everyone - Been away for a while - thanks to everyone who has posted - you all have given me food for thought, and a lot of really good insights!

Daybreak - EXACTLY - not needing to have someone (because you can't make it alone if need be), but wanting to have someone to share your life with. Being independent enough to survive on your own, but being able to form an inter-dependent relationship with a like-minded partner. Having "need" as a basis for a relationship can sometimes be limiting - if one partner only "needs" the other for financial support, self-esteem support, etc., if and when the needy partner either "grows up" or no longer needs the other for that particular "support" - the relationship will lose its purpose. I am of course, speaking of needs that we need to fulfill for ourselves, rather than expect others to fill. I would rather be in a relationship in which each person choses the other, and choses to remain in it, meeting each others needs that are legitimate relationship needs (companionship, sharted goals and activities, romance, etc.) To me it should be more about being with a particular someone that you cherish, rather than just finding someone to "have a relationshop with".

BCboy and RenaissanceMan66 - Thank you for your well-thought out responses - the men here in this community are so articulate and thoughtful. I think the term "Renaissance Man" pretty much sums of the kind of man I would like to spend time with - intelligent, well-read, intropective, and able to communicate ideas and concepts in a well thought-out and organized manner, and who has a broad range of interests.

I don't think that independence, though, means less committed. I have always been able to take care of myself, and did not engage in "independent behavior" during my marriage. If anything, I sometimes deferred to my husband when, in hindsight, I probably shouldn't have. But, I loved him, and wanted him to be happy. He, however, regularly engaged in Independent Bahavior, with the last and worst example being his affair and walking out on me and our marriage. In hindsight, I also realize that his IB behavior, along with his DJ's and emotional and physical withdrawal, were signs of his lack of involvement and committment to our relationship. Basically, he emotionally divorced me before he actually left.

But - I digress! Yes, this dating thing is hard - I have not done it in so long, that I feel really rusty! The rules have changed drastically since I was in my 20's. As someone said - we didn't actually think so much about it then. Now, we over-analyze everything!! I guess it is because the stakes are higher, and we understand more fully now the consequences of making poor choices.

It is difficult to meet like-minded partners. In my age range, there are not that many unattached men - I read just yesterday in a article in "O" Magazine that in the age group 45-65, there are only 72 singe men for every 100 singe women.
Not the best odds! I don't really feel comfortable about on-line dating - people can present themselves in a deceptive manner, and I feel uncomfortable meeting with strangers, who may or may not be desperate, and/or have agendas beyond finding a compatible partner for an honest, open relationship.

I guess I am picky! I don't know if I am too picky - I don't need rich, driven, overachieving, or movie star handsome. As long as he is self-supporting and enjoys his work, whatever it may be, is more important. I am impressed by men who are intelligent, kind, witty, fun-loving, and have a generosity of spirit.

Don't let the online dating thing daunt you too much Lady M. Really, at our stage of life, there's not many alternatives. I resisted it for years before giving it a go. Nobody crossed my path who was available that I had an interest in in my everyday life and my workplace is a very youth oriented environment. So here I am, still alone after so many years. Not that that's such a bad thing at all, luckily I enjoy my own company though!

I'm giving it a rest for now as it can be a bit exhausting and demoralising but I found that the guys I met were just like me, looking for someone decent to spend their lives with. And I think armed with your MB knowledge, you can detect a cheater or general low-life pretty quickly. And as has been said on here before, it's a numbers game. I don't blitz it like some do, I am very selective about who I meet with so have only met maybe half a dozen so far.

In my experience, I would advise that you arrange to meet soon after establishing contact, no point in emailing or phoning back and forth and building up expectations because the person has a good writing style or a nice voice. Always meet just for a coffee, preferably in your lunch break as there's always the excuse that you have to get back to work if the conversation is becoming stilted. One of my lunchtime dates was with a guy who seemed reasonable until he mentioned that "he was irresponsible with money and was a gambler". Yikes - I was outta there (in the most polite way of course).

And don't beat up on yourself for being "picky". There's nothing wrong with this, you want someone who's going to enhance your life and make it better, not someone who's going to be a piece of work or drag you down. If that's being "picky" well so be it. Like you, I'm not interested in someone who has a six pack body, George Clooney looks and whatever else it is that seems to be important to many women. Their kindness, good heart, generosity of spirit and good manners is more of a turn on for me.

PrettyPearl - Thank you for your reply - tell me, which on-line site(s) have you used? I'm not sure where to start - or sometimes if I even want to - lol!! I, too, enjoy my own company, and like having a peaceful, umcomplicated life.

I'm on the other side of the world to you so the sites I frequent are probably not relevant to you but in a nutshell I would say to avoid the sites that are free as in my experience, these seem to attract ones that wouldn't interest you. Of course this isn't true for everyone and I'm sure there are some decent ones on these sites as well but I have found the free sites seem to attract more than their share of sleaze bags looking for a hookup or whatever. Some who have contacted me haven't even read my profile and I'm sure just sent emails to anyone and everyone.

E-harmony is good because you have to pay to contact someone (this to me says that only those seriously looking for a relationship will join up) and the world at large can't trowel around looking at profiles so your privacy is reasonably assured. You only receive profiles that match what you are looking for. And although it's not cheap it's not outrageously expensive either so this is an OK one.

I'm like you too - I enjoy an uncomplicated, peaceful life, and enjoy my own company. A partner would enhance it though so I only respond to those who I think would fit the bill. Needless to say, I can count on one hand those who I have contacted so far!!!