I said I would start this up and hope it is of help to others too. I think dating post divorce is terrifying in all circumstances. If you've also been betrayed, add another 100 per cent terror. For those of us who use this site there is also the added twist of knowing you want to find someone with MB values, in a seemingly MB-free universe. A big job.

I honestly discovered this forum discussion on Plenty of Fish recently which was basically along the lines of: "This girl I met on here has a real problem with the fact I'm still in touch with my ex. How insecure is she?!" Followed by about ten very waywardish replies agreeing with the OP. Not one voice of dissent. Even when he also said he was in touch with 'former shags'. Then said if he did meet anyone else who was 'insecure' (translation: "wise to him") he would string her along for a while 'If she was fit'.

That forum attitude on POF dropped me into the dumps for a while until I realised my MB skills had allowed me to see right through this loser and that was a GOOD thing. Yay MB!!!!!!!

So I've been on POF and Match for a week and a bit. This thread is for me to blog about my dates (or lack thereof) and the pitfalls. I'm already learning there are loads of internet dating etiquette rules. I'm not ruling out RL dating however that seems like an unlikely prospect, right now, anyway, as I don�t know any single eligible men.

I'm also following Dr Harley's 30-dates-in-a-year advice. Basically I got married without dating much first and so his rules regarding contrast effect are particularly important to me, I think

What are the "internet dating etiquette rules"?

Great thread Indie... I want to join in on this.... I just need to get internet connected to the new house!

And BH... Rule number one on internet dating etiquette... Don't ask to move into a recently divorced person's new home to save on bills and keep them "warm in bed". I'm still snorting in disbelief!

hi Indiegirl,
Agree that guy is a POS, if he is willing to string insecure girls for the heck of it...
But, I do not get your problem with dates that still have contact with their ex. (if those contacts are limited to conversation ofcourse)

You are dating and freeloading, not renting or marrying remember.

The story so far:

Business-man
On Match I was messaged a few times by a man who seemed fairly keen. He was just starting up his own business after working away in Spain for a time and he had an eight year old son. We had some good back and forth and he seemed nice and well travelled but he didn't respond to my last message which was last week. I had been talking about my day and mentioned I had been dancing to Gangnam Style with my nephews. Which has clearly run him off!

Funny-man
On POF I got chatting to one guy who at 27 was younger than my specified age. His picture was good looking and he's a PHD student and I was impressed by his ability to just 'chat' online. Very good IC skills. If we were both online at once, then messages would just fly back and forth. He was very funny. However he then moved on to asking me what I was wearing. Then sent something incomprehensible. At that point I realised he was using alcohol as a on-line social lubricant and did not message back again.

Music-man
Had some great chat with this guy about music and he seemed engaging and intelligent. Then he asked me 'So, which are your three favourite Liverpool bands?' (seeing as I am from Liverpool). I found this phrasing and specific questioning to be a bit inquisitorial, however it was clearly important to him! When I messaged back 'The La's, The Coral and The Beatles' - I never heard from him again.

Artist-man
Been chatting to this guy for about a week now and he's sent me a link of some great artwork he's exhibiting online. I really liked it, some amazing ideas. He's an IT specialist thinking about making his hobby his main job. The chat isn�t as good as it could be, but he is pleasant and intelligent and I have a feeling he has better chat to offer in person. No sign of his asking me for a date though!

The disappearing act
I was having a fantastic conversation with this one on POF over the course of a week and he seemed really nice. He had just sent me a message on Boxing Day asking if I'd had a nice Christmas. I didn't have time to reply but when I logged on later his entire profile had disappeared, and so had our messages. Puzzling.

College man
A blast from the past, this one. He had seen my profile on POF and recognised me from our college days. We are having a good friendly chat, which you would expect since we know each other! I'm now in a bizarre limbo land though, where I don�t know if he is messaging me as a friend or a potential date. I suppose he would contact me on FB if he was doing a 'catch up' thing, but equally he could simply have seen my picture and messaged me to say hi.

The American
A guy from Virginia messaged me. I very nearly pressed delete there and then as I hate getting messages from far away. I've had messages from Italy and Africa online and I am not going to travel that far for a date! However this one is in the neighbourhood visiting friends, and visits often, so a date could result. He teaches University level English and seems really clever. He's also very attractive!

Oh yes, I am going to be doing contrast effect in the form of 30 dates. I won't be exclusive to them and they won't be exclusive to me. So friendship with an ex, would be fine in my situation. But i do hope at some point to have a relationship with MB values. Basically I objected to the overall tone of the forum thread, and many of the 'I do too' replies were from married people. Ugh.

I'm sure I will uncover some more, but for starters:

I get so many lazy first messages from people which just say 'Hi' or 'Wanna chat'. Or cut and paste messages which are clearly not meant just for me. A long or even particularly clever email is not necessary, but I want some sign they've actually read my profile. A simple: "That hobby you mention sounds interesting" will do. They even tell you to do this in the 'Welcome to the site' guides, but some people clearly haven't read that either!

Also, contacting people when you haven't put a photo on your profile. This is plain rude and I don't know what they expect to gain from this method. It's like approaching a woman in a bar while wearing a mask. They are either hideous, married, or too lazy to get some pics done.

The American (see above) has private pictures, which he allowed me to see when he meesaged me. I am not keen on them either as I immediately think 'married and doesnt want to get caught' but he says he stopped having a public picture after some of his students messaged him. That does make sense (if true!)

Hahahahahahahahaha!

Thanks Indie, that makes a lot of sense and I see not much has changed from when I online dated.

Do you think the guy whose profile vanished, could have been from being reported about something (like rule abuse or something)? Or married and had to delete?

Cara,
Yup I think that has been a definite red flag from any form of dating. Lol

Hi Indie,
Good to hear you are entering the world of dating.

I met my dh through mutual friends. We are very happy. I just want to encourage you that there are good men out there.

Could be either. Or neither one, he could have just had enough of internet dating. It's quite disconcerting when you think someone is really nice, and they want to hear back from you and poof - gone! It is obviously better for him to have vanished though if there is something dodgy going on.

Definitely needed to hear that!

Glad you started this thread, IG. I would love to read how your online dating experience goes.

I did it for a short while and had good and bad experiences ~ the last one I did something mortifying, followed by him doing something that triggered me BADLY...so I am taking a break...am busy with other stuff right now anyway

My sis has a good friend that just engaged to a guy she met on Match and my niece's teacher just got married to a guy she met on Match! But I also know people who have had no luck on there at all...

For the most part, I think it's a great way to meet new people, you just have to have a good screening process and try to manage your expectations until you actually meet in person.

Indie, I'm going to have to be careful not to highjack your thread! Some of our experiences sound very similar...

And Susie is spot on about managing expectations until you meet. In the flesh, a person can be very different to who they choose to portray online. I had a horror of a first date! A good learning curve though... I realised I can handle even the disaster dates, clueless about the dating scene that I am.

Well, I have a date!

My first date in 16 years. Yikes. Its my old college friend. He manned up and got to the point in under two days and a handful of messages! Which I like. We're meeting for drinks next Saturday.



I have a friend who is a BW who did alright when she was just casual dating. But then when she started talking about feeling she may be ready for more, she had a panic attack on the night she had a first date planned. Now she is taking a break.

I wonder about this, if the betrayal will still sock me in the eye in future months and years. Or if its given me better protective instincts. Hmmm.



Haven't had much interaction on there at all whereas on POF its very lively. I've just changed my Match profile pic so its the same as on POF for a more accurate comparison. Time will tell.

DO IT!!!!!!

One would think when you have suffered betrayal the way we have that you would have a difficult time trusting again. Happily I found that to be untrue. I do have good instincts now and very much appreciate the honest people I have encountered. Being with my dh has made me feel so secure....I fully appreciate how wonderful it is to be with a trust worthy person.

I think you're right SW. I dont think it makes us 'untrusting', I think it just makes the bad'uns stand out more.

Caracel ... what happened ... I feel left in LIMBO?

Go get 'em IG ... this will be great.

x 2

I did match and overall had a good experience. Establish your "rules", Indie. That doesn't mean the rules can never be adjusted but at least you will have at starting point and can identify deal breakers vs preferences. It can also be hard for a buyer to adopt the freeloader/renter mentality.

Can't wait to hear the dating adventures of Indie!!! Have FUN!!!!

x 2

And even after you meet in person, you still have to manage your expectations.

Right now I'm just trying to get dates kicked off so I can experience the contrast effect.

But...rules are already in place. You can't spend this much time on MB without forming those.

Basically I'm looking for:
PA (even though its not one of my top needs - I deserve it! )
FS - I'm not 21 any more. Get a job.(Also not a top need, but again I am deserving )
O&H - my very top need. I can't feel close to anyone without this.

I also want someone who 'gets' POJA. Also someone with a good 'dating attitude' too, i.e. They are also looking around non exclusively, but when push comes to shove they understand that men and women are never really 'just' friends.

That said about POJA, I'm already having a bit of a POJA crisis and I haven't been on one date yet.

I've got two dates in the pipeline. College man and next-town-over man who got to the point and asked me out within a few messages today.

I've already suggested meeting in Liverpool for drinks to College man, but he wants to know what my 'ideal' night out is. He had also said previously we'd do 'anything I want' Blimey, I dunno. As long as its friendly and chilled, I don't care.

But I know how annoying it is to get vague feedback so I was considering giving him a few options. There's iceskating on in town at the moment, with an ice bar. This suggestion could be a huge mistake though. I've always wanted to go iceskating but never have and might make a fool of myself.

I also know a cool noodle bar that is a cheap, tasty secret only the students know about so far.

There's also a Hawaiian bar which serves cool smoking drinks and has great music.

And there's two live music venues which are pretty kickin. College man is in a band and has a music website, so he might like this.

I also suggested to next-town-over man meeting midweek for something chilled. But he also seems to need more guidance.

Pfft! Aren't the men supposed to come up with the dates?! This is all pretty new to me

By rules, I meant more in the way of first impressions...not sure that is the right term.

How far away can he live? I find it odd when people have a 500 mile radius from where they live!!! Really????

I avoided anyone with a screen name like "HotDaddy4U"...no thanks lol. Same for men who felt the need to advertise their half neekid bodies in front of a mirror. NEXT!!! Also, being newly divorced if a man is looking for "THE ONE"...NEXT!! Stuff like that.

I like your suggestions...casual and easy. Ice skating could still be fun even being the first time out but I'm not the one who may eat it lol.

Oh yes, I agree with you on all of those points. There's also a plethora of 'currently separated' people in my age group. I think they should call match 'unmatched.com' because I have specifically ruled out still-married people in my preferences. However I still get them matched with me as part of my daily six.

Other first impression rules are 'average man' profiles. Y'know the type: "I am just an ordinary man who likes eating, sleeping, films and books, breathing oxygen etc...' How dull and lazy is that? Absolutely everyone has something different about them.

Anyone who is negative is also ruled out. I've seen people's intro sentence say things like 'No time wasters please' or 'Plenty of Egos, more like'. Ummmm, cheer up and learn some social skills.

Also on the reject pile are txt spkrs. I have seen attractive people with good jobs completely fill their profile with text message speak and it just makes them look a bit backwards.

I recommend using Match actively rather than passively. You will get a far higher hit rate that way.

Ignore their useless 'matched' suggestions. Use key word searches to find people who meet your age and distance guidelines but who also share your recreational interests. Have more fun still with some really unusual words :-) Then contact them with a fun message that shows you actually read their profile.

I have tried that, but even active searches through up the unsuitables. So it's time consuming. Meanwhile over on POF I have a bunch of messages from suitable people. So the two sites seem to have very different speeds as far as that goes.

I'm keeping an open mind though. If Match only comes up with a few people, but they are great dates, then that's still cool.

I have a feeling my 'dating, not looking for anything serious' preference goes down well on POF but not on Match. Match people tend to be a bit more serious about finding someone. I may find Match to be the better site further down the line after I've done some contrast dating and I'm ready for more....

TRANSLATION:

The married man who got caught by his wife!! (or live-in-girlfriend)

Exactly. So you see why internet dating is a little disconcerting!!!

He could also have broken the rules and been deleted. If he sent someone a sexual message, they would have kicked him out.

Indy, you are 33. Pep is 63. If I were to find myself without a husband, I would only date a filthy rich man . And those guys only want to date women your age.

Internet dating is totally unappealing to me.

I have a friend from nursing school. She is slightly older than myself. She did a lot of internet dating after she was widowed. 5 years ago she married a "doctor" she met online. Then, she moved across country to live in his home. Sold everything. Moved away from her own 2 children. Lives on the same street with his children and grandchildren.

This past Thanksgiving week, I finally met her new husband. They came out west for a visit with her kids, and to empty out her storage unit.

I cannot express to you how repulsed I was by him. He may be a "doctor", but that must have been the ONLY requirement/criteria she had !!!! An ill-mannered boor who insisted on dominating every conversation. This can only mean he is an older man with huge & ginormous insecurities. The effort it must take on her part to feed his ego must be nothing short of completely exhausting. My husband and I were exhausted after one hour in his presence. During that visit, he constantly kept one hand on her. He may have thought he was expressing his love and devotion, but both hubby and I got the "stay here where I can keep an eye on you at all times" vibe from him. He creeped us both out. And, Mr Pep is not easily creeped out. Neither am I.

Internet dating? I donno. I'd rather meet someone at a produce display.

Well actually, filthy rich is part of the plan!!!


I would be extremely happy to remain single forever if need be. So I don't think I'm in danger of 'settling' the bar as low as this! I'm not infallible from making mistakes though. Its another reason I've started this thread. The more MB eyes looking out for red flags, the better. Plus you lot are much quicker to 2x4 than RL people.


I'd love to. But no one talks at the produce display!

I have friends, married and single, who have 'been there, done that' on these sites and they say I probably won't meet my spouse online, because its easier to judge a prospect in person. The friend who met her fiance online, however says: 'never say never'

But they say its a good way to get my numbers up in terms of Dr Hs 30 dates. In your 30s you simply don't meet people who are single and eligible every day like you do in your 20s. I don't know anyone in RL who is dateable.

Did your friend do any contrast dating btw? Did she meet the guy before moving?

I am getting lots of 'pen pal' type vibes from people who are writing to me but are not asking me out. Its like they want to fall in love online without meeting (or get me to).

My friends say ditch anyone who doesn't want to meet within a fortnight. Whereas I think two weeks is too long to message someone!

I'm also quite encouraged that I am seeing people on these sites that I do know somewhat in RL, like the old college friend. My neighbour is online too. But he's not hot. Or filthy rich!

Why did she start communicating with someone so far away in the first place?

People who message me from far away (Italy is the record so far!) simply get ignored.

Because he is an MD.

Me too! Mutual friends making introductions works well--if you trust the judgment of the friends!

Oh I'm already exploring that avenue. My friends all know I'm open to fix ups.

However, like me, they don't know anyone eligible in RL.

This is the issue with modern, renters relationships. Even when men in their 30s aren't married, they tend to be living with someone.

Even though people get married later now, and the divorce rate is 50 per cent (which should give me a decent dating pool to shop in) - everyone is living together.

I know lots of people who've had people move in while they are still only separated. Or they have never been married, they just get a new partner every five years.

But sane people are out there. They do exist.

Yes they do. When my friend told me about my now dh my first question was, 'why is he divorced?' I will never forget the slight shrug as he said, 'wife flipped out and left the marriage.' When I later told my dh that our friend said that he went to explain with, 'yes, but, and um...' finally he just dropped his shoulders and said, 'yeah, that about sums it up.'

Sometimes women do just walk away from perfectly good men. I have known my dh for 2 1/2 years now and married to him for over 2 and I am still in a state of shock that a woman would leave him. I have met many many many of his family and friends and they all say the same thing....'she just went crazy.'

Yea me.

Nice to hear you are open to love.

Have you thought of trying eharmony in the uk?

I have heard they are pretty tough on cracking down on married people (even legally separated ones) trying to use the site.

That is a good thing as far as I can see and I am kindof thinking match.com and POF don't care much about that aspect of users.

I get the idea that POF is one step off from a certain cheating website anyway, from the quality of people that generally get seen there...

In some ways that's good (for me) though. The fact that there is an option for 'intimate encounters' mean cards are on the table.

Because the trawling-for-tail types are quite open and blatant, it means they tend to mainly bother each other. Since I set my preferences and made sure my pics don't send the wrong message, I haven't seen any of that.

Yes but at the end of the day, you have to use your own 'filters' and common sense.

I applaud eHarmony in that respect regarding married people, wish they all did that.

However it is eye wateringly expensive and no one has a good word to say about it.

If Match is full of slightly too serious 'want a relationship right now' types, people say eHarmony is even more so.

I really need to just date and get my feet wet right now. I couldn't abide going on a date with someone looking for 'the one'. I've had friends go on dates where they were asked for exclusivity after one hour!

Hey indie

Just saw an advert for eharmoney and thought of you.
They have a deal at the moment of free communication weekend.
You can give it a try and should you ever look for something more serious down the line then you know if its an option.

Other sites my single mates reccomend are, smooch and uniformdating.com

Good luck with the dating game I have followed your thread and amazing growth since the start and I am rooting for you.

Oh cheers, NB, that's definitely worth a go. Thanks for thinking of me





Really?! Those UD ads are so cheesy! I guess you never know what works till you try, do you?

I don't know about UD I just thought u might get more professional and courteous people there.

Smooch is run of the mill free site and has its fair share of pervs but if u can weed the good from the bad u might find something there. My closest friend married a match from there although he was gay and met his now husband there.

I am sorry to be the devil's advocate but do you ever think that our WS have put us in a place to think about men and love all the time when we could have other priorities in life at the exact moment ? I mean they make us like them ...

Worth a try



Hardly!!!

Most As are not the result of sensible dating, where you compare and contrast eligible candidates. Most As are the result of two people thinking they are soul mates, simply because they are friends.

In fact As are caused by people not thinking ENOUGH about the OS, and the contrast effect. There is no contrast effect in marriage, and when a single contrast effect is introduced in the shape of a friendship, the AP looks better than anyone else in the world.

My aim is not to think in terms of 'soul mates' like they do, and to not fall into an unsuitable relationship due to the lack of contrast effect.

Instead, I am taking Dr Hs advice to date at least 30 people in order to set up a proper contrast effect.

Have you read his advice on doing that? It really is very good.



All the time??!! Only waywards do that. Let their career and life goals go to hell etc. Because of the addictive nature of 'soul mate' affairs. Contrast dating actually leaves you feeling pretty cool, because you don't attach to any one person.



Well if my H had NOT had an affair, then I would still consider love as a high priority! My marriage always came first.

But because I am single and dating, love is not a priority at all. It is impossible for people you are only just meeting to be any kind of priority. And obviously I am not in love. Neither do I hope to be in love in the near future. The contrast effect will protect me from feeling more than I should.

I think the advice to date 30 people is not about the contrast effect
but
to find someone you like and feel attracted to who meets your five most important emotional needs. Additionally, you would need to meet their five most important emotional needs to be a potentially great match.

You've got to watch those southern boys!

Wow Pep, sounds just like my MIL. I think Indie is too independent and self sufficient to fall into the mid 60's desperation trap. LOL

She just let a guy move in with her after 3 weeks, knowing about his 3 ex wives in 9 years, the two women he cheated on the wives with, and knowing he's a player because he said he's rich. Despite her kicking him out, she let im come back and now her children don't speak to her.

The wonderful man who's so wonderful was a pompous jerk and controlling boar, but she thinks he's taking care of her!

Yes but without contrast effect it's possible to fall for someone who only meets one or two needs.

Like Pep's friend going for an MD.
If she had met someone equally successful who had other attributes too, her feelings for him would have suffered in contrast.

My goal here is not to GET a relationship, really but to avoid that trap. I would actually be very sad to give up being single at this point. New years eve with my girls was a blast! It easily beat any NY I had with my H, because he wasn't very good at RC.

But if I don't make an effort to date sensibly, there is a high chance of my developing an attraction to someone who only meets a couple of needs..

In short, giving up my fun and freedom for someone unsuitable.

So the goal is not to get a relationship but avoid the wrong ones.

Dr H says women do very well alone and have no need to marry, whereas men tend to suffer from not having a woman in their lives.

The American has now vanished too. He was giving me very elaborate compliments which seemed 'too much' to me, so my replies were a bit stilted. Then he said something about being better at conversation in person, so I suggested we meet.

So he's never replied. I would guess those pictures were private for a less innocent reason and he never had any intention of meeting. I think when people are shovelling on the attention and appearing infatuated, its because they want you to become attached to them very quickly. While hiding the truth behind their computer.

I am wary, but I think that's good. If people don't want to meet its because they want to stay hidden.

Q: in a world that's this electronically adavanced (Skype, net, phone etc) do the 30 dates have to be going out and meeting in person??

Saying that though indie i am totally clueless about dating since haven't had to do it in 14 years despite only being 31 but wondered for you if you can't increase the dating field by dating on Skype with let's say a military guy or a guy who isnt too local erc using Skype and emails for example.

I'm not experienced at dating so I'm using my reporter skills to separate fact from fiction.

If people do, as they claim, live near me, then they should have no problem meeting up. The only way to uncover a fact is to have it verified.

Is their stated photo/age/weight truthful and recent? I don't know, let's meet up and see.

Do they work where they say they do? Maybe. Let me call him at work and we'll see! After we've met and exchanged proper information, of course.

Plus my bullsquirt radar works far better in person. Its pretty easy to lie convincingly via email.

I don't understand why anyone would try to date long distance like this.

How are you going to get any RC/fun dates or a simple meaningful connection with someone you aren't going to meet in person?

I don't even know how you would find them attractive. Pictures can give an idea of whether they are attractive, but there's no way to know without meeting up.

i agree w/indie here. her goal is to meet people and have some fun over the next year. why add complications?

i think it's smart to stick with geographically desirable people, but mostly because the internet allows for a giant-size pile of b.s. in the dating game, and meeting in the flesh is the easiest way to try and circumvent that.

I was under the understanding that the reccomended 30 dates were I order to gain various experiences so eventually when the time is right to choose a life partner that can be a better informed decision.

I'm not saying date exclusively by email I'm simply suggesting that using Skype to set up a date with someone (preferably not cyber date kind of thing) can be just as exiting if the person your on a date with is creative and good at conversation as opposed to meeting a guy for a drink in a pub or having to rack your brains out to think of activities to do when you don't even know what each other likes and you can then extend the geographical area of your search. It's a shame to let a good funny and intelligent guy go because he lives too far and give a boring run of the mill date a go because he's local.

It's just a POV.

Ps when I met my DH we ere pen pals for 6 month before meeting as he lived far away (there was no Internet at the time and just saying that makes em feel old lol). So I guess I must be a little more enamoured with the idea of long distance dating.

Did you have a way of verifying truth though? Had you met him in person? That makes a difference, I think. If not, then I think you got very lucky!

Its something that could work for some peple. I've heard Dr H say it is entirely possible to fall in love online, so of course contrast effect is easily achieved online too.

It just wouldn't work for me for a number of reasons. One, I hate Skype. I don't use it even for dear friends who live far away. I just dislike the method.

Two, my PA need relates mostly to height. I have lost count of the number of times I've seen a man's pic and thought 'Hmm he's only so-so' or 'Oh he's lovely!'to then meet in person and their height/build completely changes my first feeling. I can't judge from written heights either, I have to see it.

I also think if any of my dates are online only, the contrast effect will be fake. Its easy to present yourself as perfect online because its not RL. I don't think RL guys will compare well with a tribe of 'practically perfect' men.

Basically I want to have fun. And a Skype date is my idea of hell and an email date.. Well I am already emailing people and I have no idea if I will like them when we meet. I also don't take what they say as absolute truth.

My MO is going to be to meet for drinks/coffee as a sort of 'pre-interview'. With a get out clause plan in place if they are a goon.

I'm not going to plan activities because we should make sure we get on and have a chance to discuss our interests before making a real date.

As for geography, I'm pretty lucky. I'm within easy reach of many cities.

The guy I'm meeting on Saturday is from another country! He's taking the train in from Wales.

My DH was suggested to me as a penpal by a mutual friend so I knew he was vetted and also we were only 17 at the time so didn't really have to worry about his marital status.

I definitely get what you mean now about visual vetting Indie especially when you pointed out the height thing.


I have a few lovely single friends who are trying to date right now and all they keep getting asked out on dates by are pervs, Turkish/polish guys who are very likely already married or unemployed time wasters. It could be because we are in London but it could be because those lovely funny and confident British lads are in serious short supply.

Really hope u find some fun dates and keep us posted.

When I met my dh I had been praying to God that if I needed a man in my life to please send him to me. At the same time dh was praying to God that if He thought he should have a mate to please send her to him...and dh added to that
"But please God I cannot deal with a bunch of dating so let the first one be The One". LOL.



Dating 30 people is dh and my idea of torture. But we were mid 40 and so had a fair amount of life experience to know what we wanted and what we didnt. plus trusted friends introduced us.

You Indie sound really excited about that prospect though...of dating a lot. .and so I say enjoy!

Well luckily I enjoy meeting people. And I believe god helps those who help themselves

I suppose I'm also encouraged by my friend's recent 30 date trial. She didn't go the distance though. She fell in love with No 14! A lovely guy who gets the MB stamp of approval in my book

Still there's no telling what my attitude will be like after a string of disasters!

Oh I agree didn't mean to imply you just have to pray and do nothing else!

And I am happy to hear you would stop mid way if you found a great man before date 30.

I know. I can also tell you used your hard won experience to get what you wanted. Its a little daunting to have to generate that, but as you have shown, you get back what you put in.



Yeah but he would have to be super great.

College man still hasn't confirmed for this weekend. Not impressed!

Hm. Unless he contacts you tonight, he's too late for this weekend IMO.

Yep!! Agree 100% with this.

I agree with this ladies, I have better things to do, like clean the oven

i am a complete techie nerd, but long distance doesn't suit me (though i did have a LD relationship with someone who i met locally who was transferred for work, but that's a different kettle of fish). i once met a lovely man through friends who had come to my town for the weekend. we had a nice evening out with everyone, gabbed on the phone for hours all week, then he came up again on the weekend to see me. well: worst. date. ever. i don't know what it was, but when we got one on one time, i couldn't stand him! couldn't be over fast enough. consequently, i wouldn't want to spend time building up something LD only to find out that the chemistry was lacking in person. but that's just me indie, you *are* lucky in that so many other countries are a relatively close, transport-wise, distance to you. hmm, that came out kinda oxymoronic!

Any updates Indie? Some o us have to live vicariously here, you know, so give us some good details of what the dating scene is like!

Thanks Jen!

I don't know if you would call it living vicariously more like living virtually. I just posted on Other Topics in response to something Pep said that all I get online is cut-and-paste lines like 'Hi, wanna chat?' When I do find someone who can chat easily and pleasantly, they still don't care very much. Of course not. Neither do I. This freeloader stuff is odd.

After getting dumped by college man pre-date (the nerve!), I have yet another 'tentative' date this weekend.

WHAT is wrong with these people? I don't expect anyone to be crazy about me before meeting me, but I do expect people to be able to set a date and stick to it.

This one, I'll call artist man. He's an IT guy trying to turn his art hobby into a career. Cool website. I am completely obsessed with one set of pictures taken of boats at Liverpool's Albert Dock and he's added sketched pirates! And speech bubbles. Love it.

We've been chatting for about two weeks and he mentioned meeting for coffee if I was going to be doing anything in town soon. I said I had an errand next weekend and I could do it either Sat or Sun, meaning I was free either day so he could choose one.

So he said cool, just let me know nearer the time!!!

God, don't these boys fill in their social calendars ahead of time or what?

Maybe I'm overreacting due to last weeks tentative date. I just don't get why make it tentative though?

I had thought of going online and proactively starting a bunch of new conversations but I decided against it.

I filled in two job applications instead. After months of crippling job application procrastination.

2013 is to be a year of action. The men will just have to wait. A day or so!

Well I have another tentative date. I am definitely seeing the workings of the lovebank in this whole new world. One guy I tell him is artwork is great, and I get asked on a date. The other I express concern when he said he isn't feeling well. Send out some admiration/affection and boom - date.

This other date offer is from a 28 year old, a bit younger than my preference settings but he seems mature. He's an accountant and is the only person I've been chatting to on match!

I am beginning to dislike Match.com more and more. When I got asked out on POF, I could just glance over the conversation I'd had with the guy to remind myself of certain things he'd said. He likes coffee too? Well I'll suggest we do that then.

On Match, this is virtually impossible. If you want to remind yourself of what's been said you have to open each and every email separately.

This ability to review a past conversation is the ONLY advantage to online communication. It's hard to keep different people from getting mixed up in your head. It's also a bit awkward at times and so the ability to ask someone about something from an earlier point "So, did you ever get your car fixed?" is priceless for keeping a conversation going.

My friend who did the 30 dates thinks I should 'go public'. I should post on my FB page that I'm doing 30 dates this year. A friend mentioned it on her page when she started and this generated some RL dates and fix-ups. I'm unsure and think I dont trust everyone I am FB friends with to know this.

Or am I being chicken?

i don't think you're being chicken, indie, i think you're being smart. not everyone we're friends with on FB is a real friend.

why not just spread the word with your actual/real friends? or, you could put your "real" friends into a FB group, and post to the group. i do agree that friend networking is a great way to get dates!

Funny, my mom�who is a few years older then Pep�tells me my next wife should be filthy rich too. Hmm.

Great thread Indie. I haven't tried online dating yet, but I am considering it. As a guy, it's helpful to get a female perspective on what works and doesn't.

I might give it a shot.

I don't think you are chicken. I personally would not do that...just not my style but to each her own.

As for all the various sites...seems there are mixed perceptions. I stayed away from Eharmony. It seemed like that site is more geared for finding "The One" and I stayed away from POF because I got the booty call vibe from that site lol. Match seemed to fall in the middle but I know some others who thought is was the booty call site and others who thought is was "The One" site so who knows. Maybe it all depends on personality, the dating pool that comes up given our criteria, and a bunch of other variables. I'd imagine they all have their fair share of trolls.

As for match (and this could apply to all sites), if any guy ever disappeared I didn't give it too much thought. Who knows what is going on in that person's life. I pulled my profile a couple times simply because I needed a break, was busy, met someone of interest and wanted to see where that went, was going on vacation, etc. With kids, work, and other real life stuff, people have limited time and I don't expect a man to explain himself to me after a few emails. Or he could be a thoughtless jerk. Either way, I tried not to waste too much brain power thinking about it and moved on.

One thing that did stick out was to beware of men that were widowers esp if he had no children. With no ex or any children, claiming to be a widow could be a ploy since there wouldn't be an "ex" who could tell a woman the guy was a nut job. I can't remember where I read that but it did give me pause and when I read the profiles of such men there were some things that just did not feel right.

How many FB friends do you have?

Definitely wouldn't put something like that on my FB status, but I'd go down my friends list and click people I trust and send out a group msg (or singly) letting them know I'm open for matchmaking. You often have more easy contacts on FB than you can get to in the non-virtual world.

Agree 100%. I don't think it's a sign of anything - good or bad - if someone disappears.

Until you get to a real world date, nobody really owes anyone anything. It's one of the trade-offs, I think, of the ease of being able to connect with so many people.

I think I agree with the consensus that I shouldn't go 'public' on FB. Thinking about it, I simply told everyone in RL habitually that I was NOT dating, while separated. I never put that on FB and word spread. So I think I will take the same route with the 'I'm dating now message'.

We all know how gossip spreads!

I'm actually doing pretty well on the sites even without proactively searching and messaging people. I will do that when my job hunt is over and my time is more freed up, but the job hunt takes priority right now.



I do so agree with this. But I think people should show common civilities as you would to any stranger. I would never stand someone up, for example.

Things with artist man progressing well...

We have now set a firm date for Sunday afternoon and so I sent him my number yesterday.

He texted me yesterday and today to ask about my day.

That's more like it.

I see no harm in letting people know you are dating.someone on facebook may ask you out if he knew

Indie,

I personally don't use facebook (to many triggers there) but one option would be to post to facebook that you're getting ready for a date when you check in. That is a very subtle way to mention it without broadcasting it.

As for dating, I wouldn't get worked up about about people that are flaky. Look at it this way: it's the process of elimination working in your favor without any effort on your part.

Some say that the best way to find someone is to not be looking.

ak

exactly!

Quick question for the online dating folk ... what are the rules for starting to communicate? Is it proper to have the man contact first or the woman?

Also ... Facebook is a huge huge huge huge huge trigger for me. I will never ever be on it ... how do you tell them this without looking like a scorned betrayed spouse?

Well I send messages to men as well as receiving them, I would say its just exactly like striking up a conversation. If a detail on someone's profile catches your eye, just ask them about that detail.

I have a personal rule that I want the guy to ask me out but that's very much my preference. I like people with confidence and social skills and I prefer a man to take the lead.

However Dr H says its fine for women to ask men out and is how his daughter met her husband.



Just say you hate FB. You don't have to go into vast detail as to why.

Probably you would love it if someone said 'Me too! Its so fake!'

I doubt you would date someone who was addicted to it or thought it was some kind of must-have.

That's the beauty of the freeloading approach. Not really caring about impressing people but trying to find genuine things in common and similar outlooks.

Either way is fine but important to make it clear you actually read their page. Make the contact short and amusing.

Also, I found that some men were keen to continue to email for ages rather than meet up. I don't think that is a good idea as you are building a false relationship. Eventually I realised that a lot of people lie on online dating sites and so people put off the moment of truth because they have had so many disappointments but it left me in an awkward position as a female because I was reluctant to be the one to suggest a first meeting. A good strategy was to say something like; 'I'm planning a visit to xyz museum this afternoon'.

You simply say that you are not on fb. No explanation necessary. Of course eventually you will give someone the whole story if you develop a relationship but appearing to be a messed up divorcee is going to attract the wrong kind of people (predators).

If I was interested in a man, I contacted him. I wasn't going to sit around and wonder. If he wasn't interested, I'd rather find out sooner than later. I have very good results with this approach.


If the topic comes up just say you don't like facebook...the end. You certainly don't have to advertise that you are a BS either. Keep your profile light and upbeat. Some people put waaaaaay too much information in their profiles and look like head cases. It maybe that they are trying to be upfront (which I good) but it comes across poorly as a first impression IMO.

Just been on my first date in 16 years. Holy moly, I really like him! Artist man is funny, cool, articulate and hot. His pics don't do him justice.

He says he's been on POF for months and was getting sick of it, not getting anywhere. He made a point of saying this was one of the better dates he had been on. He seemed really pleased when I said I wanted to see him again too.

It can't possibly be this easy can it?

P.S. Facebook haters - he despises FB!

I liked the fact he doesn't like football/soccer. A rare find in Liverpool.

so glad to hear you had a good date! now, only 29 to go before you can decide

I know. The thing is, if you do really like someone how do you explain the whole: "I don't trust my judgement until I've had some contrast effect"

I think people should understand that. I also think boys are tougher competitors than girls and don't mind there being a little competition if they really like someone.

you don't need to close yourself off after 1 date, no matter how much you like him. after all, if there is another date, you are still only just "dating," not necessarily "exclusive," unless you've had a conversation about that.

indie, you are so wise - i don't want to see you fall into the first guy that comes along. if he's the perfect one, he'll wait it out. you met him on a dating site, right? so he'll assume you are dating others, at least for now. (not saying you have to adhere to the full 30 dates, just not to stop looking just yet.)

let's put that aside - tell us, what did you do on your date? do you have a photo? ::evil laugh:: we wouldn't mind checking out the beefcake

Yes, I know. But getting lovebank donations is like taking shots of alcohol. It's hard to stay smart.

His pics are no good anyway. I had no idea if I would find him attractive and I was surprised how good looking he was. In spite of his pics being quite clear and recent. I don't think he's photogenic.

We met for coffee at Starbucks. I had a 'family meal' or more honestly a 'get out clause' I told him I had to be at later. However when he asked me to go for a drink, I said I had a little time. We like the same type of pub. Intimate irish places that go from chilled afternoon to evening live music. He bought us a round of drinks, I bought another. Then I said I needed to go.

We seem to have loads in common and towards the end of the date, he seemed really keen. I fessed up that he was my first date since joining the site and he said: "you have nothing to worry about dating-wise, you're really nice".

He said he really wanted to see me again and when I said 'me too' he did a little fist-bump! That was cute. He said it was definitely one of the better dates he'd been on. I'm sure he wanted to stay out awhile longer but my nerves were totally shot, plus I had a lie to adhere to! And its a school night.

He'd asked me to text him to let him know I'd got to where I was going OK. So I did and said I had a good time and we should really do it again.

Oh well. We'll see, I guess.

Yes if you don't want to do the contrast effect .... be safe Indie ... the first hits you get can warp the brain and create the PEA connection that may block judgements!!!

I got into that with Mr. Hottie .... I found him so attractive I wasn't seeing other signs until 2 months later. This is why I decided to get into the contrast effect because it scared the daylights out of me. How vulnerable I can become in such a short period of time.

What were the signs WF?

It's very easy for almost anyone to make LB deposits when you were put through the ringer and your Love Bank is almost depleted.

So indie, who's next?

BR ... I was attracted to him so I found myself over looking somethings, his independent behavior and his need for space from his children. Over time his space from his children bothered me because he was using that time away from them for personal fun. As a single mom myself my WH is doing that now. It is so painful, and the most cruel thing you can do to your children.

Granted Mr. Hottie did see his children more than my WH, but I just felt he wasn't as engaged as a father should be. I felt over time his selfishness would wear on me because I couldn't justify his nights with the guys or his weekends on his own vacations. What about the kids I kept thinking?

This is my own issue. I am really looking for a man who does 50% or as close to that as possible with his kids. A man who does less than that usually has IB and selfishness in them, which I am avoiding like the plague.

I definitely see that as a red flag, especially for fathers who don't want to put their kids as a priority.

Good to keep the bar high.

Glad you had a good time and are optimistic about dating men.

It is good to see that though cautious, you have not become totally jaded to 'man'kind.

Just enjoy dating Indiegirl. The actual experience.

If you see him again and you both seem to want a more exclusive relationship, come here first for talking it out with logical strategy.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Accountant man is next I suppose. I had suggested meeting him for a date yesterday on Thursday.

But my 'get out clause' of having to be somewhere afterwards seemed to have put him off. When I suggested meeting for a few drinks early as i had later dinner plans, he suggested waiting until I was more free!!!

Grrrr. He doesn't seem to get the whole first meeting thing. That its only a predate/interview. Artist man understood perfectly and was pleased when I agreed to go on somewhere else, instead of expecting my time.

He's been texting me and seems very funny and attentive. But one text struck me oddly. He said he wasn't free on Saturday when I tried to persevere with the predate idea and that he wasn't very free mid-week as he's travelling for work. Some cool places.

I replied: "That sounds amazing! Have fun x. And he came back with 'why are you not going to talk to me now?' That seemed odd. He also said he 'finds me exciting' which I can hardly credit as we're strangers.

It could just be the toneless quality of written communication.

I'm going to give him one more shot to set a date and that's that.

Not interested in faceless penpals

This is how the conversation went with my deskmates today:

How was your date?

"Great, I really like him!"

Did you snog?

"No way, I'm a lady. He won't get a kiss before he's even asked me out on a real date. It was just a meet up."

Has he texted you today?

"Noooooo. (Checks phone, shakes it) Nope."

Why don't you text him then?

"No, he texts me first after the date. Thems the rules".

Cacophony of female voices: "why not! That's just mind games! You like him!" One dissenting girl: "No, she's right". (The whole newsroom is listening in at this point. You can't have privacy around reporters!)

Me: "It's not mind games, it's a requirement. If he doesn't text me he is either timid or he doesn't like me. I would have no problem texting if I were the man." (This is true, it was difficult to restrain myself from texting)."So I can't be with someone more timid than me."

And then the newsroom got back to work while I made annoyed checks of my phone regularly.

He texted me at 7.30pm and we had a nice light chat. He said he was afraid to text during the day as he was afraid to disturb me (This I don't buy as he's texted me during the day before, but that's OK ) When I said it was fine, he said he would text me during the day from now on.

Accountant man texted me just after this. Some nice back and forth.. But I dunno. He seems a bit too much considering we've never met. He referred to me as a princess . I feel he's trying to flood the lovebank without us meeting and I don't like that.

He's travelling for work but I expect a meet up soon, or I'll stop responding. Not sure how to get the message over that I only want a short meetup date though.

Ah well, we'll see

It was for me! Glad it went well.

This was one of my first questions when I met dh. How much did he see his kids? Well, he saw them as much as the law allowed and he never missed visitation even when he was in the hospital and had to have relatives bring the kids to him.

And in the 2 1/2 years I've known him he has never missed one visitation. Even when we were dating and the PEAs were flying around like crazy and he wanted to be with me all the time...his kids didn't take a back seat.

Lol!

Dh asked me via text a bit ago how I am doing today. I told him I have a headache...he repleid, 'I'm sorry baby doll, lover best friend.'

And he is always like this. I have to pinch myself at times to believe he is real.

I was thinking about the contrast effect. I think I did my contrasting in the 26 years I was married. I got to know myself and what kind of person I liked and didn't like (just as friends---husbands of friends). I recognized a good quality man by the facts of his life....he came highly recommended by people I trusted.

Definitely something to think about.

x 2

Was the day before a weekend and now it is a workday? Since you are in UK, not sure the time difference from here.

He texted me mid morning/afternoon every day throughout the week in the run up to the date, Mon-Sat. But suddenly after the first meeting he didn't want to disturb me at work?

But that's ok. Some fibs (like having a family dinner to go to) are fine at this point.

I am really glad that you started this particular thread. It will be a great resource for many by watching your journey.

Just been asked out on a second date by artist man. I am going to have to try much harder to not like him.

Woo hoo. What are the plans?

Any more vibes on accountant man?

LOL. It is difficult to think straight when there is attraction and you get a long well. Do you have a list? I had a top ten list and I kept referring to it over and over again when we were dating. I gave him the list on our wedding day. (of course he wasn't allowed to see it or know about it before then! Didn't want him 'becoming what I wanted')

Indie,

After being out of the dating game for so long (like you, more like never really got into it) I must show my ignorance and say that I'm surprised that women actually talk like that.

Are these co-workers really willing to hit the sack on the first not-a-date? I find that scary, if not downright repulsive.

The fact that you have integrity makes you a catch, and it sounds like artist man is starting to see and appreciate that.

One thing I do want to pass you is to not read to much into when the txts happen after the first not-a-date. This fellow has probably been trained to play the mind games by other women, and so he most likely delayed texting you because he didn't want to appear too interested as that may have gotten a negative reaction from previous women. He no doubt is trying to make the best impression based on his past dating experience.

If you really like him (and it sounds like you do) then hint that your not like the others in that you don't care for the games. The idea is that you want him to be comfortable enough to show you his true self which is what you are really evaluating.

I hope that makes sense, I'm still half asleep,

ak

Yep games are for children. Ugh. Just before dh met me he had been pursuing a woman that he thought he might be interested in. She played those games. Wouldn't answer the phone, call back a week later, etc. The INSTANT she found out we were dating she was suddenly available. Too late.

Dh texted me when I went to the bathroom at our friend's house the night we met. He still claims he didn't know I was going to the bathroom. LOL.

That is what makes Indie a gem.

I have found that your average mid-thirties girl is not interested in anything but playing mind games. It's beyond frustrating.

<small sidetrack, sorry Indie>
I'll give an example, 1 week after divorce my ex-wife suddenly realized that her bitterness was killing her and now wants to try and met my needs. She is trying to suck me back in to play her games again. If it wasn't for the kids I would pack my stuff and move to the other side of the country.

Yes, I know I need a intermediary, but I'm not going to ask one of my friends wifes to do it, and dudes just don't want to get in the middle of it. The only real candidate is my brother, but his wife doesn't want him anywhere around my ex because she knows how seductive and manipulative my ex can be.
</small sidetrack, sorry Indie>

Indie can correct me, but I didn't think that "snog" means "go to bed with." More like making out. (Tho, not something I'd necessarily do on a first date with a stranger either.)

Ha! I thot it meant sex too. My ds12 was highly amused that I didn't know what it meant. He watches Dr. Who doncha know.

Snog is just kissing. I learned it from Harry Potter books

ROFL!!!!

A snog is just a kiss! Nothing more! Ewwww!

I should also point out that myself and my nearest deskmate tried to explain you would NEVER kiss someone in that sort of situation. You've spent a few hours getting to know each other, but you're still strangers.

We two were the only ones in the quartet who had been on blind dates. The other two had only ever been on dates AFTER getting into relationships. They are a bit younger and still find it easy to meet men.

Dating as a concept is actually pretty foreign to British culture. It is pretty much is exclusively limited to the internet. A British man is unlikely to ask a woman he knows on a date. He's far more likely to engineer subtle situations where they can get to know each other. Though you do come across the odd confident soul who will give asking you out a shot, which I like. Dating is a bit more common in London though.

I think as a culture we're a bit lost there. People used to get acquainted at dance halls and get walked home by people they'd known all their lives. People still tend to avoid looking for the right one and settle for whoever is right there. Maybe the internet will shake us up a bit.

I wouldn't hint about it...I'd be very clear and direct so there is no misunderstanding. Most people (especially the divorced) seem to be on that page about playing games and drama. That's my experience anyway. Many profiles also address this issue so it is usually easy to bring up the subject and clear the air upfront.

Interesting...very, very different than the US.

Game playing. Hmmm. I wouldn't call it game playing on his part to wait until evening to text me.

It was just natural curiosity on his part to see if I would text. He texts straight back when I text him and told me an hour into the date he really liked me.

I've avoided taking any lead but I am encouraging him. I didn't want to take the lead. For our date he took my hints that I wanted him to suggest something and he said drinks or cinema. I chose drinks because it's a better way to get to know someone.

It really is! Whenever I'm in the states I feel like inviting a party of men over to host a dating seminar!

But the women are a problem too. They don't know how to respond to date invites because they don't expect them.

Accountant man is still texting, but he says odd things. I dunno. I need some contrast effect for artist man.

I'm not clear on the meaning here? What subject/issue should I be bringing up?

If you don't think artist man is playing games then there is nothing to bring up...unless you just want to say something to him to establish your stance on the topic and be clear. My comment was more a general comment about people and the games people play.

In many profiles I see something like. "Done with the bar scene and I am not into playing games. If I like you, I will want to call and talk to you...I'm weird like that and would want to meet. If that freaks you out, please email and wink ad nauseam to other men. Thanks."

I prefer ^^^^

Oh heck.
Just go on dates......
and
when you see red flags
don't ignore them.

Just have fun though cause that is what you really need after.......you know.......

I'm so excited for you, Indie. I'm living vicariously through you so keep posting.

Hahahaha. Yes it's much better to live in the real world!

Accountant man keeps texting me with no mention of actually meeting up. This evening he said he's texting me because he is in a hotel in the middle of nowhere and he's bored. Not my problem!

Artist man texted me to ask me about my day and say he's looking forward to our date tomorrow. I am too.

So second date with artist man went very well. It was actually uncanny how well we got on.

As I predicted, somewhat from the get-go, he's sick of dating and wants a relationship. And he told me tonight he's not yet been on a date with anyone he likes as well as me.

He had somewhat guessed my position too though. I really do need to date and he said he was ok with that. Well not Ok, he was disappointed, but he said that having read my POF profile he thought he thinks he might know why I need that.

I even told him about the 30 dates. He just said 'Do it if you need to do it. Ill just be your friend, or whatever you like'

He seems kind of smitten. And I am not scared at all by it. I don't know what to make of that.

Well are you going to marry him or the accountant?

Hahaha. Steady on! I'm not marrying anyone.

I think I've got rid of the accountant by being very unenthusiastic in my text replies to him. He was starting to annoy me

Has artist man been married before? If so, um, details!!


You're not scared probably because you're in control. He wants a relationship, with you presumably, but you want the contrast effect. If he's smart, he won't press you on the issue and will allow you to proceed at your own pace.

Does the fact that you get along uncannily well diminish your desire to date others and get the contrast effect?

He's never been married and has no children. Im not sure what the deal is there, since it's a bit early for deep revelations. He has said to 'ask him anything' but that is not my idea of taking it slow just now. I appreciated the offer though.



Yes and no. Yes because it would be SO EASY to just get some needs met by this charming, attractive man. So easy to just dispense with the awkward chore of meeting new people.

No because I really don�t know enough about him to put all my eggs in that basket. Plus I am starting to feel a bit 'drunk' on the attention and I know contrast effect would cool things down

If you start to get serious Will you run a background check? Or sooner?

Good to hear you have scored a 'lover'.
Think you have to date more ppl & try to find more of those.
If you are allowed to ask anything...
Why didn't you ask a very serious question then?
"eg. What was your longest relation & where did it go wrong?"
Oww that's 2 questions.
:-)

I'm a reporter BH, able to get my hands on any info I want and I am very nosy. But I like to try using my judgement first.



He seems very 'sharey' and open like me so I dont think I would have to ask. Plus I definitely wouldn't on the first few dates!

Indie ... I am kind of facing this with a guy I am intersted in. He is very attractive to me. He is 38 and no kids. Not sure yet if he has been married. He and I are getting to know each other more, but in his world he wants to settle down. HUH? Your 38 shouldn't that have happened 10 years ago?

He works with my girlfriend. She has been good about feeding information to me on the sides. I have asked her repeatedly why isn't he already taken? What 38 year old man is still single? He is so nice, and he has great manners. We have been in a couple of meetings with each other and keeping up my non flirting, professional manner is difficult because I just want to stare and smile at him.

I am not sure what to do with this either. I do like him. Is this good, bad, or should I stop worrying? I have dated only one man and that was two months. I have gone out on a couple dates here and there, and nothing, and now this guy. Wow ... I have actual butterflies again.

Like you I question about the It makes no sense to me why someone in their 30's isn't married. Something took precedent over that and for men usually it is their career, so then I think can they give up the time for a new relationship?

Then I think to myself why haven't you found the right one yet? What is it about these women in your life you didn't like? How many women have you dated?

What really constitutes a ? In my world I need my husband to meet my needs for family, honesty, sex, recreation, and physical attractiveness.

I guess if the man can't do this then I would classify him as and if he can I should marry him ASAP so we can get started on the sex (i.e. not shacking up beforehand)?

WF, the whole point of dates is that you get to find out the answers to those questions!

You can't figure it out alone in your head.

I have been making lots of assumptions about artist man's non married status - maybe he travelled for work, maybe he got into some renters-type living situations.

But the only way I'll find out is to spend time with him and ask q's.

Can't wait to see how your dating adventures unfold for you.............

the chapter on artist man is, so far, so good.

I figured you'd have this taken care of. Good for you.

Another option is to become a nun.
Have you considered this?

Many things would have to happen before this became a viable option!

I was chatting to a very handsome, very funny man in the pub last night. He's an acquaintance of a friend and she very helpfully joked to his friends when they came in that she was with 'all single ladies' tonight (she is a diehard matchmaker).

However what tends to happen is I don't signal any interest, due to my married habits of boundaries. I realised this last night and tried to go out of my comfort zone a bit. I told him I specifically needed more twitter followers and would he follow me on twitter? He seemed to pick up on this and then spent all night talking to me. Later that night he then texted her at 2am asking her for my number.

Well when I got up this morning (I stayed over at her house) she told me about it and I thought this was fairly positive, even if the late night text was a bit strange. "But he has a girlfriend", she said. Then she proceeded to tell me a story I recognised from the days of her own 30 dates challenge.

For the purposes of this story I will call her Sarah. Basically they had gone out for a drink as friends but it turned into a meal. He had then texted another friend to ask if she thought Sarah was interested in him because he liked her. Both ladies got their heads together and sent him a message telling him to stop shopping around behind his girlfriend's back.

She is not a live-in girlfriend. Sarah says she finds her an odd choice of girlfriend for this guy because he is very clever, and a successful businessman and the girl is a hot but quite dizzy 24-year-old.

So my number will not be getting passed on to him.

However if I have spent an evening in someone's company flirting, does that count towards dating contrast effect? I need to find some way of boosting my numbers!

After putting my profile on Match I was contacted by someone quirky, clever and funny. 15 minutes of his company was enough to make me realise that I was talking to a clone of my XH. No matter how much I enjoyed his sense of humour, I was sooooo not going near a nut job again so I bailed.

I would say that qualified for the purpose of numbers and I think your evening did too because it added to the knowledge of what works for you and what does not work for you.

Of course it counts ... you can add his behavior into "poor boundaries around women."

This happens with men often ... they won't leave the girl until they have another girl ... in my opinion ... I have yet to see a girl hopper ever be a good match.

Exactly my thinking

Um........you lure them in with your open signal of availability and slap 'em down when they turn out to be dating others.

LOL.

You ought to let him be added to your twitter followers any way. One more to enjoy your comments.

So artist man had sent me a digitally altered pic of a flower he had made. He had planned to send it as a follow up to our second date, but he ended up sending it to me while we were on the date. I love it and this whole thing is affecting me way too much.

My friends counselled setting up a 'day date' as a way of getting to know him better in a chilled environment just doing something fun. So I've suggested we go to one of the art galleries on Tuesday. He's come back saying he was about to suggest the same thing, and that we should do both galleries in town and then go out to eat afterwards.

I am really looking forward to it. Really. I might need a virtual slapping to get me back to my old, ruthless, rational self.

There was another potential in the pub. Man-with-girlfriends-friend. He isnt especially hot, but he dresses well and has a friendly countenance which is the next best thing to good looking. He's very funny and sociable and was the centre of the pub's conversation. I think he'd make for good contrast.

I may ask my mate to set me up.

Unbelieveable!

College man makes a reappearance. He never came back to me about our tentative Saturday date a few weeks back. He said he was going to check his shifts, then vanished.

Now he wants to know if I am free a week Saturday.

I do need to set up some contrast dates, but this one definitely missed his chance.

The nerve! Unsure how to reply, or whether to reply at all.

Enjoying reading your dating thread Indie! If I were u, I'd give him a taste of his own medicine and not bother responding. P.s. Love that u are taking it so slow with,artist man. FWIW I think u are on the right track

Thanks for the feedback, BP. Starting to feel like I dont know what I am doing. Scary.

I would respond that you found the gap in communication to be unacceptable in a potential date. Tell him you wish him well.

Teeheehee - thanks!

Artist man has sent me a warhol-style image using one of my photographs. Like the Monroe pic.

Please someone tell me he could be doing that for loads of girls and that I should keep my hard head on. It's the coolest thing I've ever seen.

A freeloader would enjoy it.

So.....enjoy.

If he's an artist, then, yes, he has definitely done it before.

You're welcome.

Go on a single date so you can cross off one of the magic thirty, would be my advice.

Thanks for the invite, but I will be embarking on a whirlwind romace with a guy I am currently seeing ... Toodaloo..!!

Indie you have to keep in mind he may have done this before...

1) He uses his professional or personal gift of art to wine and dine women of low standards as a way to get them into bed, which would imply he thinks you are stupid enough to fall for this, and is setting the stage for your rump.

2) He is unique and hasn't done this before. I would ask him ... how many of these have you created before ... do you have others I can see?


When evaluating the emotional needs of a man ... here is where you can see why admiration is one of their biggest needs. I caution any woman here to begin to evaluate their ability to understand needs. Is he trying super hard to impress because he needs you to load him up or lather him in admiration? Is he trying super hard to impress because he thinks you have low standards and this is all it will take to bed you? I would definitely find out the answer here ... because that means he has no desire what so ever to meet your needs and you are basically his next kill.

Can you begin the process of asking him what kind of needs he can meet, i.e. financial, domestic, honesty? If you find he is turned off by the prospect of meeting your needs because he is trying to woo you into the bed, then you have your answer, i.e. He is too good to be true and the likelihood of him meeting your needs is not there.


I experienced this with a guy I dated for a couple months. I felt he loved the attention, and as I began to press him on meeting my emotional needs, i.e. family committment he seemed to get more and more agitated.

This was well into 6 weeks of seeing each other ... so you have time. I decided now I am not going to wait that long to find out their stance on how they want to support my needs. This has to do with making sure my Taker has a say in my next relationship.

indie, i think you should stop worrying so much about artist man & his intentions (at this stage - you've had one real date) and focus on your own thoughts. i know that you are absolutely starved for your needs to be filled, and it must feel great to have someone doing it! but be aware and reflective of your response. enjoy having a great time with him! dating is supposed to be fun. have some fun! as long as you don't rush the relationship (read: have sex), you are going ok right now!

i'd give the other chap (guy w/gf friend) a go with your brief drink/coffee starter, just to have some contrast. (ugh at guy w/gf, live in or not. also, good contrast of who NOT to date!)

I agree with ALL ( )of your advice Letts.

Unfortunately my friend would have to get gwagff's no from the guy with a gf. However she's sure to bump into him sometime.

And I've learned that I can flirt in a pub after all! It was easy.



I think its fairly obvious he has used his best qualities and talents to impress others before meeting me. He is 37.

Just as I have used my best gifts to win others round.

Plus I have practically ordered him that we are NOT exclusive and so really, he should be employing that contrast effect and trying out his skills with others. If he prefers me after that, great. If not, also great. He claims he is sick of dating around though.

Why would you press someone to meet your needs in a dating situation?

Do I misunderstand?

That sounds counter productive.

You can only date for so long before the relationship either gets more intense or fizzles. The goal of dating many is to find out how well they can meet your needs...so why not figure that out early on? That isn't counterproductive at all ... that is comparing/contrasting. It is a waste of my time to keep giving energy to someone who in the end has no desire to meet my family committment need, or my honesty need, or my physical attractive need. If the guy is interested in family and could be a great candidate for this need of mine, then I will continue dating him, and will then press for another need. When I get to need number two and he isn't interested in meeting that one ... then I simply move onto another man.

That is how the freeloader approach works. Your taker is in control and it is telling you "Ja oder Nein". When it says "Ja" then a little of your giver comes out and you transition into Renter. In the beginning the Freeloader's taker is in full control and its radar is on your needs only.

The goal of dating many isn't to just have a number ... it is to find the one who is willing and able to meet your most important emotional needs the best ... that is why it is the contrast effect ... that is how you can understand yourself the best.

I think you should let your Taker be driving here. Let him chase you ... let him show you how he can meet your most important emotional needs.

This is the great thing about contrast dating though. You don't have to wait for the next man. You can see them concurrently and will automatically lean towards the one who is going out of their way to display an ability to meet those needs.



Absolutely!

Okay, here's something of a U-turn for you all.

I spent most of the day with artist man yesterday. And we're going to give being exclusive a try for a short period of time.

Stunned? Not as much as I am.

But I cannot stop smiling today. Even though this is the most spectacular fail of the 30 dates challenge probably ever on record. That is, assuming I never pick up the challenge again which of course I very well might.

2x4s (and mockery) are very very welcome.

Well, I personally think dating 30 people sounds like a chore, especially when you have found the one you like, but then again, you get the chicken before the egg, how do you know he is the one you like without 30 other dates?

My solution? Write a list and get real honest with yourself about if they are what you are looking for.

Is this the MB way? No, so take it as one man's opinion.

ak

Way ahead of you! I have been compiling a list throughout my separation and divorce. It's one of the reasons why I think an extended healing period and some time alone is a good idea.

One of the reasons I went for exclusivity with artistman is because he kept saying stuff that was pretty much my list exactly. And not the run-of-the-mill girl-pleaser sentiments either, they were things quite specific to me. It was quite jaw dropping the stuff he kept saying, actually. Like he was reading my mind.

The other thing is, we pretty came up with about ten really fun things we want to do with each other as dates. This happened very easily and it was all stuff I would struggle to get other people interested in. I have good friends who would not share my interests as well as he seems to.

That was sort of the clincher really, because the things we were suggesting were all-day dates rather than a few hours. I don't have all that much time to date and I just want to see where this goes. The original plan was to go on a series of disappointing and short coffee dates with numbers 1-30. But I must admit I like this one better.

It doesnt rule out the contrast effect entirely, because lets face it there are men everywhere and as a single woman, there's no need for me to put super high boundaries in place.

He said he would find it quite difficult for me to go on dates. But this was said matter of factly. He was very clear there would have been no moodiness or withdrawal from him had I decided to carry on. He offered to downgrade to 'just friends'if that was what I wanted.

It isn't and I'm happy to detour from the 30 dates plan for a few months while I get to know him better.

What? You are exclusively dating one man now?
That's too early????

Be careful, Indie. Personally I think it's waaaaay too soon for you to go exclusive with anyone, 30 date challenge or not.

You generally are pretty hard on most MB stuff so I must admit I am a bit surprised by your decision. I mean, I personally would never undertake the 30-date thing, but you seemed quite convinced by it...

ETA: Also, and I apologize if this is harsh, but I find your reasons for doing so (in your subsequent post) quite weak. You would be very tough on anyone who offered them (or reasons in a similar vein) as justifications for departing from the MB plan...

No that is a very fair point. I definitely would be.

I think I've said before that once a person is a bit older they have lived enough life to experience different men in various settings. It seems to me indie, that you've done the hard work of healing and compiling your list. I had mine made for YEARS before I was divorced. I made it as a personal insight type of exercise...it was clear my then husband was NOT a good choice but what exactly did I want? Once I made the list I put it away and rarely thought about it because really what was the point since I was already married.

When I became single I immediately went through one very very bad relationship. It lasted a few months. Once I extracted myself from that nightmare I got myself together and found my list. I tweaked it a little since it had been made a decade earlier in the middle of a very bad marriage. I remember one thing on the original list was 'not curse at me and call me names' . I realized that was part of basic human treatment and did not need a spot on my list and it made room for something more relevant.

It was only a few months later that I met my dh. We knew within days that we wanted to date....and in our world that means exclusive. In fact, dating multiple men at once has an ick factor to it IMO, even if there is no sex involved. We both also knew up front that we were interested in marriage not just extended dating.

I remember saying on here that we agreed on all the important points and someone said I couldn't possibly know that because I had not known him Long enough. But I did know. I could look at the way he had lived his life and know. The ability to look at history is very helpful and something that is not available to 20 year olds.

So sure be careful. Watch closely to see if his actions match his words. But when you find what you want you sometimes just know.

Well I am surprised to read the latest, Indie. I can certainly understand hitting it off with a man and being smitten but I also think you set yourself for this after reading this comment:


You are already labeling any date/meet up as disappointing? And limited? Why? THEY HAVEN'T EVEN HAPPENED YET and you didn't give them much of a chance to either. Maybe artist guy is a great catch but he is surely going to look all the better if this was/is your attitude. I suggest you re-read your posts in this thread...you only started it a few weeks ago.

Why are you willing to be exclusive so soon? I'm not a big believer of the 30+ dating patners but 1????

I do love to spark debate



Perhaps. I just think the vast majority of dates are non starters. Not all, but most if you listen to people's experiences. I was struggling to even get a date set up online in spite of chatting to many men because as soon as we got close, someone would say something I found 'off'.

I will definitely re-read my thread, that is a great idea.



I am not yet sure I am going to end things the challenge at number one. I could be back on the dating market in a few weeks' time, after all. I don't know him yet.



This does resonate with me. but I couldnt say I am anywhere near the point yet of 'knowing'.

I guess since I have always been the serial rather than parallel dater, I can empathize with indie's choice. I think that being exclusive can work, as long as you keep your wits about you, give it the test of time, and realize that the likelihood is that he will not turn out to be THE ONE. In which case you'll have to deal with a breakup, and move on to #2 of 30 .

AGG

I had a distinct advantage over you in that we were introduced by friends and then it turned out we had many mutual friends. I put out the word I wanted to know about him....all the feedback I got was consistent with what he was presenting to me.

Oh absolutely, I think you did have an advantage. I have to consider that I dont yet know who he is in the real world, and keep in mind how we met.

However if he walked into my newsroom I would totally run a story based on his word. No matter how differently I phrase a question, he gives the same consistent reply.

This is a technique that doesn't often fail in the search for truth, but I have to keep in mind that I dont usually get LB deposits at work!

I can empathize too. It is definetly a challenge to maintain a freeloader mentality when you've been a buyer for so long...and are more comfortable being a buyer. I get it.

After a long term marriage and surviving infidelity hell, being exclusive with a man would be a big deal *to me*...it would mean more than just an opportunity to get to know someone better. Indie and others may not share that exact same definition so that may be an issue too.

I understand feeling discouraged but would hate to see you cut things off based on other people's experiences. Yeah, yeah...the same could be said for all of what we are telling you now lol...listen to those people but not those other people

I know you aren't running to the alter or anything but I was very surprised to see you go exclusive with artist man after a couple dates given all that has been discussed.

Have you met any of his friends?

Not yet, but he is inviting me to meet whoever I want, including his mother.

He also is keen to meet my friends but I am sort of feeling sloooow is better there.

However this is one of the reasons I leaned towards exclusivity. I think I can find out more that way.

If I spend days with him, rather than short dates, and if I meet some of his friends etc, I think I will learn more about him.

Meet everyone. That is a great way to see into his real world. Friends and family are likely to give you clues and call him out if he is out of character.

Just my opinion.

You are a smart woman...and I am pretty sure that you will not let those addictive love chemicals blind you. Right?

Oh Indie! I'm surprised as well! I know you like him, but I would have jumped at the just friends status for at least for a couple of weeks. That way you could've found out a lot more about him, the more searching questions that you stayed away from the first few dates. e.g. his past relationships and why if he is such a great catch he hasn't settled down as yet???? I'm thinking the romantic love factor is coming on a bit too soon and will cloud your judgement.

That said I hope you proceed with extreme caution here and if you even catch a whiff of something that might be a red flag take note of it!

Looking forward to hearing how your 10 dates go. Keep your head on dear.

Yep. I agree, meet everyone. You ever notice in serial killer movies the guy who turns out to be the murderer has no family or friends...everyone died in a car wreck or something.

maybe exclusive dating means something different to others....it isn't a huge deal to me except that she can concentrate on getting to know him.

This was the first date with this guy and you are exclusive? Indie, where's the fire? Why not date a few more times over the course of say a month or so and then see?

I saw it recommended on this forum months ago "The Rules" I got the "The Rules for Online Dating" because to be quite honest I was completely clueless about what to do.

The rules are controversial and while I don't want to argue them, I will say that the message in the book that I completely agree with is to keep things slow in the beginning -- it's kinda a self-preservation thing. The online rules discourages any type of intimacy building over email/text, keeping the expectations low until you have really had a chance to know the person over the course of several dates -- spread out, not all day dates etc.

Just consider it. I have been warned numerous times that after D, you can fall in love VERY QUICKLY and EASILY. And with the WRONG PERSON.

Please be careful. Many people are seeing a red flag with this. Think about it. We all care about you

I agree with the bolded. Being exclusive doesn't mean jumping incompletely with someone you just met.

I do think enough time has passed since your divorce that you are capable of being smart. Just take it easy even while being exclusive.

That is the plan! Exclusive to me does not mean serious. He was very much in agreement with that too.

It is tough thinking straight with those chemicals coming at you for the first time in a long while..but I am determined to keep my head on straight.

I feel much more purposeful and level headed after a spending bit of time on here.

It's why I started this thread. Objectivity to hand when I need it.

It has nothing to do with being smart, though, IMO. It has to do with allowing the person to make massive love bank deposits when you haven't even REALLY gotten a chance to know them yet, which will cloud your judgement.

The fact that she is already contradicting what she said her plan was shows you that she has clouded judgement, IMO.

I think it is completely crazy to be exclusive with a person after one date. It raises all kinds of red flags on this -- for you what I already mentioned, you let him make too many LB$ deposits too fast. For him, it raises red flags as well, if you get my meaning. Many of these online guys are sleezy, Indie. Be careful.

Third date. I am taking a break from the 30 dates (he knows my resuming that plan is an ever present option) and I mean for things with him to be super duper s.l.o.w.

I'm pretty certain if there are red flags to be seen, I will see them. Or you all will!



Absolutely. I just don't know enough for it to be serious.

Well we were chatting online for about a week, maybe a bit longer. We had two evening dates and a day-long date over the course of about a week and a half. We have kept in touch every day by text, though not many because I don't want that to escalate and he agrees.

Obviously that's only long enough to know that you 'want to know more' not long enough to 'know'

I will agree that lots of LB deposits are being made. Which perhaps IS foolish.

The main ones that are sending me reeling are O&H (my top need) and RC.

I don't know whether I should discourage those needs so much. I want to encourage transparency and I want to see if we have fun together.

Thoughts?

OK, I just looked back.

You have gone on 3 dates with him in 1.5 weeks, one was all day and it sounds like there was intimacy being built thru texting and emails (him sending you flower, etc).

It doesn't really change how I feel with the red flags I am seeing. TOO FAST.

The book I mentioned would tell you this is bad for a whole host of reasons, one being you will automaticlly screen jerks out by making them be patient and have to "work" for it.. Again, controversial but just wanted to give you something to think about.

Just keep in mind that even though he appears to be O&H, you don't really know that he is in fact being honest. Smooth talkers who open up fast have always been a red flag to me.

O&H is important to most women and guys know that.

You should encourage transparency and have fun together. I guess I do not understand why that requires exclusivity after only a few dates. The way you described dating in the UK now makes me wonder if you have fallen in that same trap...artist guy is there and you don't know what to do with him.

That he has dated several people over a period of months and then you date him for less than two weeks and go exclusive...idk...this just rubs me the wrong way. He's had his comparison shopping, you have not. And breakups suck, whether a couple is serious or not.

I think the more important question is what does exclusive dating mean to artist man and why is he so insistent on it after only 3 dates. I think it is sort of controlling and selfish if you ask me!

It rubs me wrong too, BR.

indie, you sound foggy too in some of your posts. I mean, I don't know how else to describe it. We are exclusive but it doesn't mean it's serious? We are taking it s.l.o.w? this is contradictory.

You want to take a "break" from the 30 dates? I have never seen someone take that 30 date rule so seriously as you and seem so excited by it. You just got started. You have started to fall in love with him and this makes me scared for you.

Ok I realized I made a DJ there. I should have asked how did the talk of being exclusive come up especially if as you suggest artist man already knew of your 30 date challenge?

Artist. In this field will he be able to establish EP's to protect you? Does he have social networking for all his admirers to follow and post to him? Does he travel and have showings?

Is his lifestyle and occupation one that can support MB?

Oh good point. And when I talk about needs being met, I of course mean 'appears to be'. If someone on a date tells you they earn a lot of money, it isn't necesarily true they can meet an FS need.



Sort of yes. I was swimming against the tide culturally, but as I have said: contrast effect still applies when two people have only just started going out. Other men still try to be 'friends'.



Oh no I agree he will have to work for it. He knows he's still very much in the early interview stages. He by no means has got the job!



If he was insistent, we would be done.


It means I am trialling but not committing to the situation. I am not sure how much plainer I can make it. I want to see <IF> he is suitable, I am by no means saying he is.



Yeah, this is one of the things I find appealing. His time is very flexible, he can work from anywhere flexibly and he (appears) to have a good attitude to a work/life balance. His mother is a BW (he mentioned this before I gave anything away) and he blames his fathers lack of time and prioritisation of home life for his father's A.

I am still excited by it. I think it is a fabulous concept and gives you a much better 'take it or leave it' attitude than you would otherwise have.

By no means have I debunked the concept as unworkable and by no means am I necessarily done with it. I could very well be picking the plan up again and meeting date number two in a week or so's time. I would not be unreasonably distressed if I was.




No, this isn't love. Perhaps the seed, but it doesn't look anything like the plant.

I have these answers. Two serious relationships. Most of his time spent travelling around, not putting down any roots. One four year GF that fizzled out. One five year that became an engagement - he ended it because she had a great deal of IB habits, he knew she would not alter. He's never lived with anybody.

I have an invitation to meet his mum and some relatives on Sunday.

I have plans overnight Saturday in Manchester with my friends, but should I make the effort to come back for a Sunday meet-up?

Part of me thinks it sends a 'serious' message, part of me thinks its all part of getting to know each other.

He knew because I told him!!

This seems to be happening way tooooo fast.

Maybe meeting the definition of a rebound relationship

He sounds like he has never had a successful relationship.
It would be a mistake to try to mold him into someone that meets your ideals

Hi Indiegirl, when we met on this forum, one of the pieces of advice you gave me was that I had not dated enough to achieve the contrast effect. In fact, in this post you wrote:

Yet now you have decided to enter an exclusive dating relationship?

This might be an example of "do what I say not what I do," and I can certainly understand that because I do it too!

Just wanted to point out that statement you made last year so you can contrast it with your current dating decision.


Also, from the beginning of this thread,

It's the "I think" part I'm wondering about. Sounds like you might've had some reservations about the 30 dates contrast effect when you first posted this thread.


I'm not trying to dissuade you from dating exclusively, I just wanted to give you some food for thought.

I think what you're doing is great! I think you can be exclusive without a feeling of permanence and simply have fun getting to know someone else a bit deeper. While it may save you the heartache of a later break-up, I think going into a relationship cautiously can take the fun out of it.

I agree with pokerface that you are a smart woman. I say, go for it and have fun! You'll do the right thing.

"exclusive to me does not mean serious"

Really? Because it does to most of the human population.

Yes, meet his family; it's a great way to learn more about him.

But it is not always a red flag. Sometimes it is just a person being sick of game playing and wanting a real relationship. Dh was being O&H with me immediately.

I guess the real test for me is what does he want from Indie? If she continues to get to know him, especially in the context of his friends and family I think she will see the real artist man....good or bad.

Maybe I'm just odd but I don't meet friends and family members after a few dates. Not trying to be a downer, Indie but you have contradicted yourself a lot...and in a short period of time. If you weren't such a vocal MB member, a lot of what you have said may have gone under the radar but you have been vocal about not rushing things to others and that advice seems to have gone out the window.

I'll just shut up...for now.

He didn't have to get married to have a successful relationship. Two, multi-year relationships is not a bad thing IMO...may just be the opposite even. He is still young.

Well that just makes no sense to me. Exclusivity is a promise, a promise to not see other people, and if that is not serious, then I don't know what is . And you are talking about meeting his mom - that is also not serious?

The problem with exclusivity (one that you can avoid if you acknowledge it, but I am not seeing you acknowledge it) is that you lose perspective. When you do parallel dating, you can do real time comparing and contrasting, and you have more options to not put up with dealbreakers. Once you become exclusive, you have sort of put all the eggs into one basket, and there is tremendous pressure to avoid disappointment. And that often forces you to overlook things that you would otherwise not overlook. And indeed the deeper enmeshed you become (by meeting friends and family), the higher that pressure will become. I would very strongly recommend that you do not go down that path this quickly.

I think you can become exclusive (and acknowledge that it is serious and is a sort of commitment) and still go very slow. Not try to see him every free minute you have, but see him occasionally for dates, to give you lots of down time to process and observe. The less enmeshed you are, the better.

FWIW, when I met my now wife, J, I was in contact with probably a dozen other women online. I met about half of them in parallel with going out on dates with J over the next two months. And those parallel dates made me appreciate J that much more - but it took me about 2 months to decide to become exclusive with her. I think that was a very good pace.

AGG

It would totally turn me off if a man wanted to go out with me and other woman. If he can't give me exclusive attention long enough to get to know me and for us to see if we are a suitable match then I would not want to go out with him. It isn't a promise that he will marry me or me him.

There is often something deeply entrenched in a man with freedom and travel ... habits are difficult to change in their 30's ... be wise to what you need ...

Why would it upset you?
That is dating.

We cannot assume these were sexless relationships...that makes him fall hard into the freeloader and/or renter spot...hence bad habits were built over the past decade or more.

I think I said it would turn me off. And dating is done in different ways. As I said if a man can't focus his attention on me long enough to determine if I am a yes or no for him then he isn't the one for me.

I hope this doesn't turn into another thread about morals about sex outside of marriage...that doesn't make a person 'bad' marriage material IMO. I assume the man is not a 30 yr old virgin.

Hi Indie, I think what several posters are concerned about is that by going into a relationship with artist man too fast (and "too fast" is a relative term), you risk becoming emotionally vulnerable before you've had the time to develop trust with artist man. That's true; if you go too fast, you do risk emotional vulnerability and possible subsequent heartbreak.

In my opinion, and this is just my opinion, the essence of living is vulnerability. I would rather risk emotional pain and enjoy the feeling of free-ness that comes with following my heart and becoming vulnerable; I would rather do that than be cautious in a relationship. You survived the break-up of your marriage, and you'll survive the break-up of any dating relationship you're in if it happens.

The vibes I get from you tell me that you can both enjoy an exclusive relationship with artist man and be smart about red flags at the same time.

Well said.

The real risk is not heartbreak (that is the lesser risk); the bigger risk is becoming involved and blinded, and then getting married too soon, based more on the great warm fuzzy feelings than on true deep knowledge of the other person.

AGG

Well I figured as much. The point was to ask who brought up the exclusive discussion. Anyway, I want to agree that meeting his folks so soon also seems like it's going a bit quickly. I'd use the fact that you'd be there on Saturday as the perfect excuse to get a few more weeks of dating under your belt before you meet his folks.

Neither have I!! This definition would limit me to married men and widowers.



I still think the contrast effect, in the form of male friendships, flirting etc is important. And the fact that this relationship is casual and not 'binding' too, absolutely. But I do feel like rather a hypocrite, yes



That is not the understandsing between me and artistman.

The most attractive part of his offer was that part. The slow, not serious part. I hadn't expected someone to offer me that and yet only want to date me.

Serious means you will fix things if they go wrong. Sort it out. In this case if things are just slightly off key, or we don't get along as we hope, it's over. We both understand that.



I have never claimed to be the all knowing and I am aware that on THIS thread I am the least objective voice.

That is the whole point of this thread. So don't be shy.

As to your point, ordinarily I would agree with you. If I had met him at work, or through mutual friends, I wouldn't want to meet his mother at this early stage.

But there is a lot to be said for it when you have met online.

And I don't 'want' to meet his mother or get serious.

Nowhere have I said that, I ASKED for feedback as to the tactics of it.

True. A person in such a situation as Indie has to be honest with herself.

It is good to gets feedback about the process...so many people have such different experiences and react s differently.

Not sure if you should meet his family so soon or not but had to share that 2 weeks after dh and I met we had both sets of our parents to my house for dinner. The way he was with his family helped me get a good picture of him...and while I was cooking he was doing a project for me...installing a pocket door.

Everyone here said that was a big red flag...meeting parents so soon...that he was rushing me.....but it has worked out so wonderful.

I THINK (genuinely not sure) that I like the fact he has offered and the offer is enough for now. Maybe I will meet a friend or two of his before his mum.

I will not be shy!!! That being said, I really will shut up because I'm headed out for a pedicure...and I have an ice cream date later.

I know you are a smart lady. You may not 'want' to meet his mom but if you don't want to meet her then don't. I wouldn't even make up an excuse not to meet either...assuming you decide against the Sunday meeting. If you are both on the same page of not getting serious or having some high expectations of the other, then just telling him you don't want to met his family just yet should not be a big deal so no need to make excuse...that also starts to blur the lines of what you want out of a relationship (even casual)...O&H. If you meet the mom, to me that sends a message as other have said...intended or not. Artist can says all kinds of things, but it doesn't mean he isn't hoping for certain things. You have seen this sort of thing on MB and it's probably human nature anyway.

I fall somewhere in between these two viewpoints I think.

Well no I wouldn't make up an excuse, I would be frank. I've never yet figured out a way NOT to be.




Possibly, very possibly.

But I can't worry about that.

I am in taker mode and only really care what's in this for me/ what my perspective is. I have to.

I don't think there's anything wrong with an exclusive fling. It might lead somewhere, it might not.

Just keep in mind that you just got out of your marriage and you're probably not ready for anything too serious.

Pretty much yeah!

Yep. It speaks volumes.

Thank you. Have a good week.

I agree with that too...and I'm sorry but THAT really sounds like "seriousness". After 2 weeks??

Just sayin'....

I know. I appreciate it.

I'm not familiar with that aspect of dating culture either.

I met my husbands mother before the first date.

I met a high school sweetheart's mother somewhere around the same very early point too.

Wasn't a big deal. Neither good nor bad.

Indie. Sorry I did not mean to cloud everything by suggesting that you meet his friends and family.

I can remember several times after meeting "the friends" my view of the guy was completely different. So much so that I made it an important part of my screening process. It was my trusted window into seeing the real person when I met the people that he was comfortable surrounding himself with.

Especially if I was starting to feel that I wanted to be exclusive.


That's just my own experience. Wow. You have a lot to think about here.

We have discussed this extensively KL ... this is not Dr. Harley's approach. Logic has to be the front runner. There is no such thing as blind trust...and running with your emotions is the wayward path and always leads to heartache. That is a given.

It is the ability to slowly process what is in front of you and keep it simple linking the ability that each other have to care for the other in terms of emotional needs.

Getting to know if one can meet your emotional needs and will POJA with you takes time ... lots and lots of time.

Any other approach of "just follow what feels good" is the road with the most bumps because it establishes a renter mentality.

POJA is something many frown upon because a whole bunch of RENTERS are running around. Artist Man has demonstrated he had two long term relationships as a RENTER.

Hence ... Indie now you know what level playing field you are on ... he can be a buyer ... but POJA should be the front runner here and the only way he may convert.

Serious SW ... how long have you been around here?

ETA: SW we have extensively had this discussion concerning your situation as well. There are serious red flags with your current marriage, that play out on these boards. Your continued connectivity to your WxH, your Step-Sons, and your husband's WxW. It would be nice if you would allow this true situation of yours play out for Indie while giving her all this support to just "follow her heart". Your situation is not all roses and champagne. There are things given and inherent in your situation that makes it less ideal, so please don't encourage a false sense of ideal for this woman who should be given all the facts, not just the ones with rose colored glasses on ...

You realize the other guys you were talking to was not dating, right? Unless I am not understanding there have been NO CONTRAST dates? Just want to make sure I didn't miss anything

Very very good point.

I could meet a whole festival of his relatives and still not know as much as time will teach me.

The time aspect is everything, imo.

Determining if someone can meet our ENs and if they will POJA does not have to take lots and lots of time. It takes honesty and a willingness to look for honesty or lack of in the other person. She has to be around him to figure that out. If she begins to really like him during that process what is she suppose to do?

Please don't apologise! You know how much I value your opinion and how often you have saved my skin.

I think your advice was good. If I met them I may learn something. If I don't there'll be another time.

I don't think I DO have a lot to think about. I think I just need the time for things to reveal themselves.

Why do you think you missed something? He was the first date.


I don't care how many fine examples of heart following there are out there, I will not be following my heart!

I have a damn fine head.

I didn't say follow your heart. I am not a fan of follow your heart thinking actually.

As for the rest of your comments about my life I have no idea what you are talking about. I have a wonderful husband and our marriage is still a dream to me. Maybe you have me confused with someone else.

Sorry, Indie if I'm harping.

Here's the thing. You don't seem to CONTEST the 30 date thing. You seem to still think it's a good idea...

So, doing the contrary in the face of what you think is the "right approach" seems very odd, and NOT logical.

If you DIDN'T think the approach made sense, I would understand it more.

It's a wee bit like saying that you agree with, oh, pure NC in Plan B, but don't do it.

You know?

Also, I am not understanding the "contrast" effect from a bunch of guys with whom you interact in the most superficial of ways.

Are you saying that you will be open to LB deposits from them?

Just curious.

I just wanted to put in two pence worth about on-line dating here. Because you can do such an effective job projecting yourself on line (and I'm sure you did Indie as you are a great communicator) and screening people is so effective, it is possible to get far better apparent 'matches' than you would get in real life. Also far more interesting onces as the system helps you to connect to people who you would not normally meet.

But that can be a two edged sword as someone can seem amazingly compatible but you don't really know who they are until you have spent tons of time together. It is what happens in an unexpected situation that is most telling about a person. How is she when his dog eats her shoe, how is he when she crashes his car. That stuff.

This doesn't have any bearing on the 'exclusive' discussion by the way, it's another issue.

I'm still interested in hearing how the decision to be exclusive came about especially since you'd been so adamant about the 30 dates.

In my simple minded opinion (which I often get censored and complained for) ; you are just doing your own thing.
There is nothing wrong with that.
But you write Too many contradictions.

Why don't you just email Dr Harley for his opinion?

I've heard him recommend 2 years before dating after divorce?

Indie.
I don't care what you do in your dating life.

One guy.
Thirty guys.

You have to live it and you get to choose.

It is just so funny you switched plans so soon.

Indie, I�m not sure that I should bother, since you seem to be ignoring my posts, but I�ll try anyway. I�ll repeat that like you, I was a serial dater after my divorce, and I thought that it made sense to focus on one person than spread myself too thin. So believe me, I get where you are coming from.

But as I also said, I realized the downside of that approach. Part of it is the putting all eggs into one basket issue that I mentioned earlier. Another one is the whole problem of letting someone meet your needs and thus filling your lovebank, which really tends to cloud your judgment. As I said, the biggest risk is that you may get so blinded and lovestruck that you won�t notice the red flags until too late.

You know, if you look at my posts on this board some 8 years back, you�ll see a lot of folks bashing me for spouse-shopping back then. And you�ll see me arguing back that I was doing nothing of the sort. But the frustrating reality is that outsiders often see you much more clearly than you see yourself, especially when you are smitten, and in a way these folks were right. I was meeting women in order to find a spouse, so in a way I was indeed spouse shopping. What I should have been doing instead was doing comparative shopping before buying anything. That is, meeting a bunch of women for light dates (coffee), chatting with them, honing my skills of interacting with the opposite sex in a dating but pressure free environment. The minute you become exclusive with someone, that opportunity goes away. You can tell us all you want that you are holding the �30 dates� threat over artist man�s head, but you have already invested yourself into a relationship with him, and with that comes pressure.

One other thing. Like you, I spent a lot of time reflecting, thinking, and reading about dating, relationships, etc, after divorce. So I thought that I was ready to meet �the one�. What I found is that reading is one thing, putting it in practice is another. There simply is no replacement for meeting lots of dates casually and trying them on for size (shopping), to really see who you click with. When I started dating after my divorce, the first three or four women that I ended up in relationships with were totally wrong for me. It took me years and many dates to figure out who the right type of person was for me, and she was nothing like what I thought was right for me early on. That did not happen through thinking or reading, that happened through trial and error. Unfortunately exclusivity short circuits the trial and error approach.

I will never say that becoming exclusive with someone early on cannot work � I can think of at least three recent examples here that seemed to work. But it is definitely going against the odds. That is the only reason that most of us are harping on you � it is not to criticize, it is to protect someone we care about on MB. Hope you take it that way.

AGG

I do.



Nnnnoooo, I don't think so anyway. NC in Plan B can cause nervous breakdowns and puts off healing. I can still get contrast effect while concentrating my dating time on ine person for a short period of time.



Of course, I'm not married.



I just liked the idea of spending time with someone and concentrating on those dates for a while. Then I'll review. The 30 dates can be resumed at any point.

I am quite surprised that I even want to do this. I would have thought it would take much longer than this to find someone I want to be around for more than a short period of time. Plus there's nothing to say this won't hit a wall in a weeks' time. It's too soon to tell.



That's a consideration and if I feel like I get stuck or undecided its an option. For now though I am perfectly happy with my choices.



I was very careful to ensure I was healed before even embarking on this journey and starting this thread/dating. I don't have any children and I have healed within a dark Plan B. I haven't been divorced longer than four months, but the separation was a long, healing process of nearly a year.



Not at all, I'm considering everything.



I do!

When I wrote earlier about following your heart, I should have added, "and don't lose your head."

I think some people are better than others at following their heart while at the same time keeping their head. You have my vote of confidence because I think you can do both.

That was the idea I was agreeing with....the part about allowing ourselves to be vulnerable while being smart.

I wont be following my heart at all, I have to see sense and logic and the potential for needs to be met long term. The heart simply does not take long term, truth or sense into account. It isn't designed to.

Time, information and my education on here will give me the data I need.

That said, I do think I have to allow men to met my needs. Does it make me more vulnerable? Perhaps, but I am not in my Plan B protected bubble, refusing all needs and OS friendships any more and that is just how it is.

I've had some criticism here for allowing needs to be met simply by accepting some pictures. I do so appreciate that criticism too.

Yes, accepting pictures is allowing an affection need and that will affect me. But how else can you tell if someone can meet that need in a way you like?

One day he sends me a pic that I really like. today he has sent me some poetry I don't. That reveals we dont have the exact same tastes in everything.

How else do you learn about this stuff, except to do it?

Dating is by definition the act of allowing to have some of your needs met. I don't think anyone is arguing against that. By all means, do it.

What people are saying is that if you have those needs met by a variety of men, you are better poised to do comparative shopping than if you allow only one man to do the same.

AGG

I couldnt agree more

It's hard juggling a bunch of suitors. I think it's a good idea to concentrate on one at a time. Or two:)

Give it a few weeks. Then reevaluate. If it's worth going a few more weeks, keep going. If it's not worth continuing with any further, cut bait.

Don't get too emotionally involved at this point.

And when you cut bait, cut bait. Don't string people along. Don't continue
with a relationship you're not interested in based on the other person's feelings. Now is the time you need to do what's right for Indie.

TE

Yes it is the juggling thing really, time etc.

There was one point on the sites when I couldn't keep everyone's name straight, particularly as they are anonymous. It's also very time consuming trying to figure out who is lying etc.

I havent given up on the dating sites, I think they are brill if you have the time to spare. One more reason to get a less consuming job. I just got a bit fed up of people wanting to email incessantly without meeting. It really started to feel like a chore and if I am going to give these dates with artist man a go, that will eat up what little time I did have.

I can flirt with some people who will be out on Saturday night, that'll do for now. I feel like there's enough on my plate really.

Just wanted FWIW that I don't have a problem with anyone dating one or two people at a time. If Indie had just shown up here saying I am dating artist guy, blah blah, I wouldn't have even blinked.

It was the complete 180 regarding the 30 dates/contrast effect that she was so gung ho about that was the red flag for me, that she has started falling for this guy too quickly that she has lost objectivity. She even seemed to recognize it as it was happening...



And I don't really get your comments, Indie, about not liking to juggle being a reason to completely give up your quest to "contrast effect" date. You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You can control the amount of men you are talking to. I would take 2-3 men at one time, respond with short emails and if they didn't ask out w/n a couple of emails -- NEXT. Then I would respond to the next one that I was interested in. Some men might have to wait a while to get a response, it was never a problem. If you get overwhelmed with the attention you are getting, you can just hide your profile until things cool down. This is not uncommon in online dating.

Indie, not only did you tell us about 7+ men you were talking to online, but you wanted to announce on FB that you were looking for dates? And you were going to ask friends to set you up? Now you can only handle one at a time? Lots of contradictions going on here.

Anyway, it seems your mind is made up so I am not going to argue with you so that's probably the last post for me on this subject. Good luck:)

Thanks. There are lots of good points you are making and if artist man was already considered a dud, I would still be pursuing that, albeit on a smaller scale.

But it is very time consuming to see him enough to learn anything about him. I still wouldn't have gone for it if it was at all serious though.

My friends do know I am still interested in a bit of contrast effect. They are all diehard matchmakers and they get where I am coming from, even if few other people do.

I just can't seem to get across to many of the people I meet that by dating I am not spouse hunting, relationship hunting or wanting a pen pal. That I just want to meet and flirt a bit. I think I will get further and expend less time and energy if I keep my contrast effect limited to lighter, non date situations.

It could work. Or it might be horrendously ineffective. I would never have guessed how much work dating was when I started this whole thing.

I absolutely do recognise it. I think that is the way to keep a level head.

Someone who didn't understand alcohol would think: "my goodness the bar is tilted and there is two of everyone" whereas someone who did would realise they can't trust those perceptions.

When artist man meets a need, it feels good but I know what is happening. I never think: "He likes Warhol too - it's fate!" Rather I think: "Good at RC and affection".

JMO but it seems that a big part of your decision to (temporarily) derail the 30 date thing is that he simply didn't want you to. I believe you said was he pretty unhappy with the idea.

Were you concerned about losing him?

Something that is important here is Dr. Harley's vision of the 30 dates ... it is process that happens over time ... actually I am going to send him an email about this because I actually think someone in their 30's needs more time to do the contrast dating because there is so much baggage associated with life.

Okay emailed the radio show ... hope to have more information soon.

Tough~

Kerela great point because wouldn't it be something to actually have a man chase you, fight for you, win you over.

Then get yourself dating more men...and make artistman chase you!!! He won't go anywhere if he really likes you and wants to fight for you.

The reality is you stay a freeloader for a very short period until you automatically go renter. When you both go renter then you are willing to care more .... this is where you want your contrast dating to go ... be chased Indie ... let them chase you ... if they don't ... that makes them bonafide freeloaders and lazy.

You are getting to Renter with Artist man ... go on more dates and get other men to renter ... it will be an eye opening experience.

Indie I have just discovered your new thread and am only on page 7, so forgive me if someone else has already posted these tips.

Tips that I have heard from my brother and several other friends who have done Internet dating of course.

One, plan a first date that is easy to get out of. Like a drink or coffee, as opposed to a dinner or event. That way if you meet and know right away there is no spark, you can bail with out investing too much time or money.

Watch out for catfish, seems to be everywhere these days. Especially on free sites like POF.

There are also money scams on these sites, but I won't warn you about the seemingly perfect man who at some point asks for money bc you are way to smart for that.

Expect highs and lows. Everyone I know who has doe this gets really excited and has a million logs in the fire, then just gets overwhelmed by it all and goes into hiding for awhile. Rinse and repeat. This can also be a reason for the disappearing acts.

Finally, I always shop for groceries in the middle of the night. It is usually me and about 10 single men. Just a personal observation...

Good luck lady!

Oh ya, another thing that you are already doing it seems. Give people a nickname based on a defining characteristic. Farm boy for the farmer, blueberry for the guy who likes blueberry beer, etc. it helps to keep them straight, it can get confusing when you converse with a lot of people at once. (plus it is easier for your friends to keep up with the stories).

My bro is blissfully married to 'lucky number 13.'

Keep reading unwritten.

Oops there was supposed to be a smiley face there.

Yes he was and I did take it into account. Just as I would anyone's discomfort. It was half that, half being a bit fed up with the dating attitude I kept encountering. It was also curiosity to see where a few more dates with artist man would lead.



Hardly. I locked my first love and husband out of the house. I kept a dark Plan B when I was expiring with distress and thwarted love and the withdrawal was giving me physical pains.

With respect, I can handle a second date with someone I am not in love with not working out.

Also, he made it very clear that his discomfort was his problem and that he wasn't going anywhere, regardless.

Even a hint of a demand in his expression of this would have ended everything for me right then and there.

Great ideas, thanks guys

Just lurking Ladies I am way past the dating game age..(I started young?)

Its interesting to watch and see people exchange ideas and tactics, and see them come up with the same ideas I have too. Also seeing the MB Crowd doing well, as can be expected..

Like Pep, I will be looking for a sugar Momma, just because I don't want Money to be an issue at all, not because I want any of hers.. I'm too old for that anyways and wouldn't know how to. "Play Dat", so to speak...

On second thought, I will wait till I am independently wealthy so I know money won't matter..Then I can trust them right? Just look at Anna Nicole and her TV show...

But that's not fair, he must of known she was a flake and putting all that money in her hands was just plain irresponsible, but it was for love no?

Seriously Indie you sound great and this thread is awesome..

Now back to the program...

It was a simple question. And a pretty defensive response.

Hey Indie,

Congrats on the successful first dates.

I must say I am in agreement with your choice.

I get the need for contrast dating and for the 30 dates challenge but I also don't think that the 30 dates are time bound or that you have to be dating more than one person at a time to get a contrast, why can't you gat a contrast by dating one person at a time?
Why can't you contrast between artist man and your XH to begin with?

Here is my logic

The 30 dates are there so you can know what to look for in a future husband because eventually you want to remarry and share your life with Mr right.

You are at an advantage because you have Mb, you know about the qualities you should look for in a mr right and how to protect your future marriage against Affairs and heartache while having a very exceptionally happy marriage.

If Artist man turns put to be your future Mr right then you have found him and will be happy.

If artist man isn't then you have another person to contrast your next dates against.

I personally think that dating one person at a time is beneficial because you can concentrate on each person and get a deeper knowledge of what you want and don't want from a future spouse.


I'm in the UK too and would like to point out that dating is very different here. British men are not used to going out with ladies who are also dating other men. It's simply not the culture here.
Dating exclusively is the norm not the exception here so I can understand why artist man might have been a little bothered by the 30 dates concept and got confused to the point of thinking and suggesting that they only be friends.

Hope you have fun indie and as everyone suggested already keep your guards up and take it slow.

Thanks to you kerala I had to spend all day catching up to see what I was missing!

IG might still have a need for late night groceries in the future, if Art doesn't ride off into the sunset with her...

For one, because this could take a really, really long time. Fine if you are in your 20's, but I don't think Indie wants to date for another decade. But I could be wrong.

If I were online dating, and after the first date someone wanted to be exclusive, that would be a red flag to me honestly. If I knew someone for a decade and was good friends with them, and then we started dating, I would STILL not be exclusive after 1 date.

You won't even snog on date 1 but on date 2 you will decide to become exclusive? Doesn't sound rational, sorry.

I also agree that it is too soon to meet anyone's parents. In my teens and early 20's I introduced everyone to mom and dad. But now I would not introduce someone to the rents unless it was so serious I was thinking possible marriage, and wanted parents to meet him before he popped the question. For any of my single friends who are dating, this is standard quo.

Just my .02 if you needed any more, doesn't seem like you do

I'm confident you'll do fine however this works out. Just don't want to see you get so warm and fuzzy you derail your overall plan. You know how it goes, follow the plan, not your emotions...

"Do I follow my head..or follow my heart.."

Just reminds me of that REO Speedwagon song from thier album in the 80s..Funny was struggling then too with that question..

Please understand so much of that part of my life is over, married in 1977 to my first GF in HS who I dated for 2 years prior, yeah sweet 16 I guess it was..

separated in 1980 and it was really over, and boy was I messed up. So much so that my buddys GF,(Who I guess had a coke history or something), used to jump in when the guys called me "Head case" I just replied with.."Well at least I have a head on my shoulders..." Yeah she was pathetic..

But the song meant the same thing, and asked the same questions.."Are we going to blame ourselves for where we let our hearts lead us?" I mean when we are older, less hormone drives, less afraid of being alone. More sure of ourselves..

Will we be ready when we change, and yes we will change,(Didn't David Bowie write a song...sorry)

How much of our emotions can be attributed to fear and loneliness, of making a mistake and living it down, when in fact we are human and we are bound to make mistakes, its in our nature, lessons learned.

But sharing this experience, this very deep experience with someone and making it sacred, is the most important and yet seems the most fragile thing..Im talking about sharing the car keys and the apt but more than that..sharing the bringing up of children in the world. Just bringing them into the world is enough of an honor we get from Nature, but sharing what it takes to love and raise them?

I am proud to say that Dr Hs wisdom and his teaching is the closest thing I have ever heard to good marriage discipline, and practical also on so many levels.

Join me in this joke on my behalf folks..I Mean I can take a joke...

CP SAYS.."What? I am 55, have 4 wonderful kids, am a diabetic and am out of work collecting disability, my wife was an addict who died because she didn't take care of herself,,and NOW I FIND MB?..Whats more is I recently found out that this board just got straightened out in 2008, and I joined in 2009, six months after my wife passed away?"

I am not in crisis, my children are all doing fine, but hey lol...

Yeah the contrast effect sounds really good Indie, I know your not going to be crazy and you know you are worth way mare than this guy says anyways..Yeah he has got to prove it...

Take your time Indie is my advice too..

You're right. I think I made my point, but I didn't have to get quite so on my high horse and be so snooty about it.

I shouldn't forget these questions are being driven by concern. And I shouldn't act like such a know-it-all. Sorry. Forgive me?

Of course.

I've been thinking that this whole sitch may point up some of the limits of certain aspects of MB thinking as applied to different cultural milieus.

It does, but I am determined to find a way to make contrast effect work even here in dear old refrained Blighty. I am not sure how I will get on yet, but I will keep you all posted.

I obviously cannot exlude contrast effect while dating artist man. That would make the relationship almost as serious as marriage and is unworkable.

Artist man seems to understand this too and the conversation we had last night went along the lines of he understands someone else coworkers/friends/acquaintances could 'snap me up' at a minute's notice if he messes up at all. I told him that goes both ways and to take a freeloader's approach to me (in layman's terms of course).

I smell bullsh*t.
You were on a 30 date plan, had a couple of duds & out of the blue comes a 'lover'... You allow him to meet some of your needs & boing: next post you are exclusive...

I am not buying it.

I smell rebound or adventure :-)

Thank you for your input

I had to add my two cents in here even though I don't post too often. Indigirl asked for opinions and two by fours but I think the above comment and a few others have crossed that line into being flat out disrespectful. We're all on the same side on this board, trying to help out those who are trying to navigate the dating world. We all deserve respect. I think that's something that is sometimes lost when we're trying to get our opinion across.

Travis

ITA

Keep posting, Indie. This 50 year old BS is learning from you. I need to be prepared when I get out there. And as for the 30 date goal -- you already weeded out the bad ones via on-line screening. In the old days, you didn't have that advantage. So if you find Mr. Right after 5 or 10 or 2, then go for it. MB has given us great tools to evaluate potential mates. And as BS's, we have all learned that we HAVE to dig deep. We have to look for red flags. We have to be on guard. We cannot go down that path again.

Thank you everybody.

I do think contrast effect remains important and there's going to be an acquaintance out tonight who I have been softly flirting with since I first began to anticipate the start of the 30 date challenge. There's not a vast deal we have in common etc, but if I can get talking to him tonight it's contrast effect and flirting practice at the very least.

Abso-freakin-lutely

Not all betrayed spouses have learned that. Many posters on here have been here before with previous marriages.
I don't understand online screening. How can you filter people online? There are many fine men that don't use Internet dating.

In the end, MB tools are great. But we can't control another persons behavior. We can only control ours

HH, keep in mind that Dr Harley said this very recently so he is well aware of on-line screening. He has taken into consideration that potential candidates will be screened before the date. In fact, he once had a dating service that used to do most of the screening before the first date...and he STILL advocates 30 dates to find the one who does the best job of meeting your needs. I think it is great advice!

Hey guys, do you get the feeling that Dr. H just wants everybody to slow down on the "Permanent mate selection" and that is why he said 30 Dates for contrast effect?

Lets see, good rules for dating

Get to know the person in different circumstances

Don't let sex become the driving force in your connection.

Hold off on sexual activity until you are married..IE..See first two rules

So if you spend a lot of free time in a non-pressure way just getting to know 30 people very well as friends, and not necessarily "The One".. you might be able to pick out one who is a good friend and maybe two or three to pick from as real good friend possibility..


It would seem good to me for this contrast process with 30 different dates to last about 6 mos. and with the refining process probably a year..

Do you think you could remain celibate that long girls? Then you have the marriage to plan out too of course.

Oh I know that there are those that have their head screwed on straight and just know, and if they can be found anywhere its on this site. Both men and women.

Just thought the sex thing and the rules about that should be clearly thought out and stated..just seems a little foggy

It goes double for the guys

I don't put much stock in online screening. Most of the people I know (even the guys I met thru online dating) all had "horror stories" of meeting up with people who either looked nothing like their online picture or were nothing like they protrayed in their ad.

Here's some examples of things I found out with the guys I was supposed to go out with -- one turned out to be on a sex site, adultdatinghall.com or something. Another, I found his FB page, he had a girlfriend -- the relationship was posted on his wall. Another, I found out that he was not yet divorced, they were in the middle of divorce proceedings. Another guy I actually went out with and seemed like a great guy, had lied about his age...I guess a common thing with online dating but still, the dishonesty, a red flag.

I can't emphasize enough to be careful and take it slow with these online folks and to research them if possible (FB, court records). You really know NOTHING about them!

Ditto, Plus its like the old adage, you don't know how people are till you live,(spend time), with them.

So making a coffee connection in a public place and bringing along a friend for objectiveness should be the icebreaker of course IMO. And like it has been said so many times on this site you should BOTH, be like inspectors and full of questions, and be ready with answers. Common sense stuff..

Then the dates..should be like you are still testing the ground to see if it is sound to walk on..this should take some time too..but whats the hurry? Dating is/should be fun and relaxed anyway.

Lots of guys are out there with just one thing in mind, and unknowingly the drive to procreate the species is very "Strong in this one!"
Back in the 70s we called it,"Thinking with the wrong head"..Its funny how that works..

Hi Indie, wondering if you decided to meet the parents this weekend or not. Also waiting to hear if you had another date this weekend.

No I didn't meet his mother, decided it was the wrong time. I appreciated the offer/transparency though.

The contrast effect person I had in mind though didn't show up on Saturday night. I had lots of OS friend conversations that would have been terrible boundaries had I been married. They all felt very platonic though, not flirtly at all. Spent the rest of the weekend with my girlfriends.

I had a date with artist man last night he was showing me how to take pictures with his fancy camera equipment because I want some beach images for my beach-themed spare room. Practicing on some everyday objects made me realise how difficult it is. The idea is we're going to go to the coast, Blackpool, on a good day, possibly my birthday and take some good shots that will do the trick.

That sounds like a fun time Indie...I love the beach.

Maybe he will ask you to marry him at the beach

Do you have "speed dating" in jolly olde? Good way to get up to 30 really quickly!!

He strikes me as somewhat cleverer than that. Could be wrong of course.

I'm listening to the Internet broadcast now and Dr Harley addressed dating on today's radio show.
He said, If you meet 5 dates and find a suitable mate there is no need to date another 25

LOL on the marriage proposal prediction Jedi!

Very interesting!

Well, Indie, there you go. I do wonder, how that squares with the original theory.

I am also confused how the contrast effect applies to dating? I have never heard Dr Harley frame it in relation to dating. Dating, in my mind, is a competition much like candidates competing for a job. And sure, you are contrasting candidates, but this is SUPPOSED to be a competition.

I should definitely listen to this if I can find it. I may have missed it on 'today's' broadcast by now.

I have dated several people but those people are more historic than current. I remember their attributes and how they affected me pretty well though. I'm not sure how this fits into the theory though.

That was how I understood it too. That you purposefully create a contrast effect/competition.

Dr Harley specifically addressed contrast effect in dating yesterday.
He said the 30 dates is a general guideline. You can date 5 people and fun the right one. In indies case, he would approve of her dating exclusively at this time ( based on yesterday's statement)

That was my question...Brain can you post it for us...I missed it because I thought it was on Monday.

Yes I will as soon as they post it in the archives. They are a week behind.

I have it flagged and have been waiting for it.

The contrast effect is mentioned in the context of marriage, when a spouse is watching porn or having an affair. It is not applicable to this situation. This is a competition to find the best candidate. I guess in a weird way it could be considered a "contrast effect" but that is not how he uses that term.

I did hear him say that a person might meet their suitable mate in 5 dates, rather than 30 and that is just fine. What he meant was that it typically takes 30 dates to find the right person. But that might happen in 5 dates. I am going to send him this article and ask him to make it crystal clear because I certainly misunderstood it!

Choosing the Right One to Marry

No, he said someone wrote him about this and was baffled it was being used in that context. He didn't understand why it was being used that way.

Thanks for the clarification, Mel. I have been misusing the term as it is something Dr H speaks about as a negative effect, which it is in marriage.

It's just that I find it useful to compare the competitiveness of dating to the contrast effect of OS friendships on marriage.

It has negative slowing down of intimacy in marriage but in dating prevents a 'too close too soon' trap with an unproven candidate. A situation where contrast and a lack of intimacy is positive, not negative.

You are not seeking a contrast, though. You are seeking the person who does the best job of meeting your needs. Sure, you might compare one candidate to the next, but that still doesn't mean much if both or all of the candidates do a poor job of meeting your needs. You don't take the best out of the lot, in other words. You keep interviewing candidates until the right one is found.

Thanks for the info. Also to clarify...30 dates vs 30 people. Dr H says 30 people. 30 dates could be spread amongst 1-30 different people.

yep!

I agree. They should be slam dunking the needs meeting and the relationship should make logical not just emotional sense. You should also feel you meet their needs q effortlessly without having to be somebody you're not and force it.

Dr H has said that if you interview 30 candidates the odds are your in your favour that you will find such a candidate. Of course if you do not, you should keep going not just pick the best of a bad lot.

The only reason I have misused the term contrast effect in this context is because I have seen Dr H use the terms interchangeably when he is talking about marriage. He will describe the contrast effect of, for example an A, then he will say 'There should be no competition in marriage'

I do take your point though that contrast effect is a term that is supposed to describe a negative thing in marriage and not the positive competitiveness of dating.




Surely contrast helps there though? My friend's last boyfriend was very unaffectionate, though good looking and solvent. She would have told you then she didn't value affection much. Her new boyfriend is very affectionate in addition to her other needs and she is much happier.

I never thought RC was much of a need of mine but compared to Softlad, artistman has so much in common with me it is easy to think up things we want to do together. There literally isn't enough time to implement all the ideas we come up with.

I'm not sure I understand the phrasing there. Do you mean could or should? And does 1-30 mean it has to be 30, nothing less - or does that mean any number between 1 and 30 will do? Including just one?

Oh sure, there is comparison for sure. Just like candidates for a job. All the candidates are assessed and compared.

Could or should...I don't think it matters. I was trying to point out that you could have 30 dates with just two people. Dr H does not say go on 30 dates. He says date 30 people. If you go out on 30 dates with one person, you have no comparison at all. The larger the population of the dating pool = the better you can compare.

Well glad to hear you held off on the meet the parents bit and a little sorry to hear that your intended date (hope I didn't misunderstand) did not show up at the group event. The date with artist man sounds lovely, but makes me think you got all touchy feely. True? Be careful there. I am guessing there is a strong sexual attraction already.

None of the above. She was just saying that it was 30 people, not 30 DATES. Dr Harley said on the radio show that he didn't mean a person had to date 30 ppl. He meant that it can take going through 30 ppl to find the right one.

Yeah Makes total sense...He could have said 50 different people and it would have meant the same thing

Now if you meet what you feel is mr right on date 29, get married, and then have problems, you can't go back and say.."Jeez now if I only waited for number 30.."

To me it is a general question, when you want someone to fill a specific role, Wife/Husband...Father/Mother...Oh and lets not forget freind...Oh wait.. that should be first right?

Of course it should...

No Pressure, take 100, 1000 dates till you find the one..

Indie,

Please excuse the dumb question, but you have made several mentions of flirting to interest possible dating candidates., and I find myself wondering what you mean by that.

So are you teasing these guys, or is it body language? I guess I don't understand the subtle ways that one can express interest, or pick up on when someone is interested in you.

ak

Well Britain has quite a subtle culture, so something as overt as saying outright that you want to date someone is being misunderstood as me wanting a relationship/kissing/way too much etc.

What I'm trying to do instead (and it may or may not work) is just spend time mixing and socialising with people. Smiling and being interested in conversation (if it is interesting). Paying compliments (if I have something sincere to say) and just generally keeping the sort of open and available boundaries appropriate for a single woman.

At the weekend I had a number of in depth conversations with OS friends that were personal, affectionate, interesting etc.

I am also quite a natural flirt. If I see someone I like I tend to look, then look away and I've been told this is done in quite an attractive way. Maybe, maybe not.

OK, think I've got it.

I am attracted, for sure. I wouldn't date anyone who wasn't attractive to me. Something I had to explain when my friends kept trying to fix me up with short men! I don't like short men...

But I would be so wary of someone who wasn't trying to develop the attraction through the right routes.. Conversation and companionship etc. We have discussed what we find attractive. He likes my use of colour in clothes and attention to detail with PA. He actually finds the non-sexual emphasis appealing too.

Apparently I am one of the few women he's met who takes this approach. And I am the only woman he's met online who is interested in getting to know him instead of trying to 'bully' him into instant sex. A very depressing state of affairs for the sisterhood, if true. Its one of the reasons he says he is sick of the Plenty of Fish website.

Maybe things are different in Britain, but I am having trouble understanding how someone in an exclusive relationship can be having in depth personal and affectionate conversations with OS people. I see the whole point of exclusivity as NOT engaging in such behavior. If it were me, and I saw my "exclusive" dating partner do this with other men, I'd dump her faster than she could say "boo".

AGG

Yes you did appear to have a leaning towards that approach in your previous posts and you seemed to think I was in a serious relationship. That just simply isn't the case.

I've only known artistman a few weeks, keep in mind. He is cool with a very low-key getting to know each other period for now. He also knows I will resume the 30 dates absolutely whenever I feel like it, no hard feelings. That was his idea in fact. He also knows there is general competition for him to pit himself against.

It would be quite simply crazy at this stage in the game for OS friends to be banned. Completely crazy.

I have also encouraged him to view me as an option amongst other competitiors, rather than a done deal. If he finds a woman's friendship more satisfying than dating me at this early stage, I would just view that as a sign. And vice versa.

He wasn't even uncomfortable with the dating other people option; he offered for us to be friends if I wanted to do that. It's simply that I want to spend some time focusing on learning more about him. I have no idea where it will go and my options remain open at this point.

I am being very O&H about that.

I wasn't suggesting banning OS friends. I was just pondering how you can be in an exclusive relationship and still be flirting with others. Seems like it's a way of saying "we're exclusive, but only until/unless something better comes along".

AGG

X 2

It seems odd to me that you are exclusive but you will flirt with other men or have ENs met by others...just not date them. I don't get that. That's not how many people would view exclusivity. Seems like a contradiction.

Precisely.

But no matter, I think I am done with this thread. I realise I am inviting these sorts of personal 'Would dump her' comments, and I just dont want to do that any more.

But she is not in a committed relationship. She is just dating this guy. While she is dating - even though "exclusive" - she should still be looking at other potential candidates. Her only agreement is that she won't DATE other people for a while. She is doing that.

No, I get the part that she is not committed. So maybe it's a terminology issue - the word "exclusive" means "no others" to me. Including flirting. To me, when I am dating, I am evaluating my dating partner - and if I see them flirting with others, especially if supposedly "exclusive" with me, then that would tell me a lot about her. As I said, I would walk away from that, and have numerous times, as indie points out. Never regretted those decisions .

AGG

Fair enough. I view this as an open competition. MrExclusive is still in competition with others, even though she has agreed to not date others. This is a test of his suitability, and the competition is still open. I am sure she doesn't flirt in front of him, she is too well mannered to do that, but she is still seeking potential candidates.

Yeah, I understand.

AGG

Yeah, well I think you can tell whether your date is actually flirting with other guys/girls, or just politely ending the conversation in a dating environment.

Of course that comes into play in this also..

But open and honest conversation can straighten all that out.."Are you interested in him/her? I mean at least when you are here with me you could send back the drinks and refuse the attention don't you think?" If not yeah I would say goodbye fast too..

But in a bar where the dating might be taking place, there are a lot of incapacitated people making moves in all directions, and you must discern whether your date is showing you the right attention and respect, and then make the call on the play..

Maybe you went on the wrong day to the wrong place and he/she is not smart enough to figure out what to do, or you brought them totally out of their element.

Yeah AGG I see where you might want to say "Goodbye" to some people in some situations, and how steep the competition might be also. Please remember how guys think, and how they act, and what is important to most dating women.

Maybe read some of the relationship sites on the net? Lol, no, I wont do that to ya..

Oh, I read more than my share of relationship sites over the past 10 years, thanks.

AGG

A lightbulb just went off and I can see what AGG means. He is thinking she is flirting IN FRONT OF MRExclusive. And in that case, I would dump my date because I consider that so disrespectful to me. However, I think we can safely assume that indiegirl does not do that in his presence.

indiegirl, come back!!! Don't leave mad..

AGG, aren't you married now?

I hope not. I wanted to come in and commend you for bringing this issue to the board and discussing it as openly and for as long as you have. In the end, you are divorced and you can date whomever you want however you want. You don't need our permission for anything. There isn't a WRONG answer here....just perhaps smarter more cautious choices and CHOOSING to post and get input from others was one of those very smart choices that you made.

My own take is that the 30 date thing is just a suggestion/recommendation. It's not a hard and fast rule nor is it a "narrow path" to relationship success like many of the other MB concepts. Personally, I like the rule/suggestion because it, perhaps, allows a divorcee just starting out in the dating pool to relax about those first few dates AND keep those dates, perhaps, somewhat at arms length and in perspective. This buys the divorcee time to make a few mistakes...date some dogs without too much enmeshment...and get distance from the pain of divorce such that they avoid the "rescuers" as I like to call them who seemingly come out of the woodwork to help save the emotional new divorcees. Finally...it keeps the divorcee from over investing in a new relationship and getting hurt again [ask yourself this...artist guy has several long term relationships but never gets married...is he perhaps pursuing a recent divorcee with vigor because he knows she's not anxious to run down the aisle anytime soon...hate to see you two years into this relationship and realize he's just not into marriage, despite what he says, and you might have missed your actual Mr. Right by committing to quickly to being exclusive with this guy]

I think it's particularly wise for someone like you, Indie, who didn't date much prior to your first marriage. I think it was wise to undertake it as a goal and wise to share your thoughts as you could see your feelings for this gentleman start to interfere with your stated intentions. PEA's are tough to combat.

Unfortunately, the subject always seems to stir things up a bit. Anyone around that divorced and remarried quickly get their feelings hurt and think we are either talking about them, criticizing them, that Dr. Harley is just too traditional and/or that you should follow your heart (as they presumably did with success or not). Then the hardliners get upset, as they should, because someone is promoting their plan (divorce and quick remarriage is OK or works for them over a more logical cautious plan) on someone else's thread (IMO...if they want to debate the suggestion they should do so on their own thread). Then, as is often the case, the original poster starts getting harassed because their feelings are telling them to agree with and take comfort from the persons that say it's OK and all they really did was start having legitimate strong feelings for someone they were legitimately dating and asking MB for input before they let those feelings override logic. In the end...they feel punished for discussing the topic and their feelings tell them to never discuss it here again.

If you leave and stop talking about it...the only one hurt will be you. So please....keep bringing this issue back up whenever you need support and just deal with or ignore anyone that talks at you instead of to you. Then again...sometimes the posts that bother you the most are the ones you most need to hear. Just read with logic and don't let your feelings deter you. IMO, the forum/board...in general...have only your best interests at heart.

Godspeed,


Mr. Wondering

p.s. - consider this...my parents have been married over 50 years. My mother had to cancel a date with another gentlemen the night after my dad proposed to her and she accepted. Dating is brutal. It's rife with rejection, hurt feelings and arbitrary rules. IMO, "exclusivity" is fake marriage and for the most part, unnecessary until engaged.

Hi Indiegirl, it appears Artist-man has been the initiator of exclusivity and you are willing to go along but aren't as serious about exclusivity as he his. As long as he is aware of the difference, I think it's ok to be flirty with OS friends. But if he believes you are as serious about exclusivity as he his, then he is at a disadvantage, and you should probably correct his misperception of your relationship.

Even though it was his idea that you could resume 30 dates whenever you feel like it, I bet he would be quite disappointed if you did. It sounds as if you are in the driver's seat in your relationship with Artist-man. Whether that's good or not is a personal opinion I suppose, but someone in your position has the potential to hurt the other one's feelings. You seem considerate enough to not want to do that on purpose. I'm simply pointing out a possible relationship dynamic because sometimes it's easier to see from the outside.

Putting myself in Artist-man's shoes, if I was attracted to you and wanted exclusivity, I would be willing to enter into an unbalanced form of exclusivity just to keep in touch with you, even if it didn't appear to be healthy for me. If you're as unique to him as you seem to be, then if I were him, I would be willing to bury my Taker for a while and let my Giver take over and hope for the best; and this could happen subconsciously without even understanding the Giver/Taker concept. I'm sure you know the dangers if that pattern gets established early on in a relationship.

Even if YOU are being O&H, he may not be O&H with his own feelings (either consciously or subsconsciously), not wanting to do or say anything that could push you away.

Yup, quite happily . That's why I didn't quite understand the suggestions above.

AGG

If I was artist man and the woman I was dating kept talking about 30 dates I would go outside and bang my head on the brick wall instead of keep listening to her talk about it.

From a Vet who deserves respect..See Indie your thread is awesome subject matter

Yes, I had a short two-month stint with it and needed a break! This reminded me that I wanted to post a response Dr Harley had to a single woman on the private forum.

This is the 12-3 post he references and I think it's relevant to this thread and could be useful for those dating

Even w/o literally "seeing" your dating partner flirt in front of you (which I agree would be disrespectful) just knowing your partner may be doing that...kind of is turn off and tends to leave a bad taste in the mouth when in an "exclusive" relationship. I agree with AGG that exclusive means "no other" in every way.

Which then raises the question of what is considered "committed?" Exclusive obviously mean different things to different people. I would imagine committed does to.

Indie, what happened to your love of debate? If your thread sparks that...that's a good thing. It's a learning experience for all even if we all don't agree.

Indie, I am sorry you are feeling beat up and wanting to leave the thread.

At least for me, being exclusive and committed are interchangeable terms -- so it's hard for me to wrap my head around having one without the other. Again, just given how gung-ho you were about the 30 dates, it's just hard to reconcile it with your explanations and I think many of us are worried about you, that's all....

Don't stop posting

I agree

Of course this is all from a dating perspective, and you should be friends first, and friends make deals to keep friendships..

It takes time to invest enough in someone until you let down the guard we all have up. It takes time that we think we don't have but really do when it comes down to reality. I am sure you will do fine in the long run Indie

Same here


Yep

Committed means that the competition is over and she is either engaged or married. It is not over, though. She is still interviewing even though she has agreed to date this guy exclusively.

Committed is completely different from "exclusive" IMO. She can date one guy exclusively, but she is not committed to him in any sense. She is only committed to date him exclusively for a short while.

I wish I had known all this when I "dated" after my last marriage. I have only dated 4-5 guys in my life and I married 3 of them! I married current husband 6 months after my divorce was final. He was the only guy I dated.

On the other hand, we have a great marriage NOW so it all worked out in the end.

This is how I was seeing it as well.

indiegirl, please come back!!! Your thread has been just wonderful. It is great guidance for other single people.

I am not above begging either!!

Hahahaha.

I love you all. I'm on a date with artistman right now, so I will catch you later..

Its going VERY well!

And this is the part that I find difficult to reconcile. She is still interviewing, yes, but if they are exclusive I would think that she would not be interviewing others, because that is contradictory with exclusive. I view exclusive as "I put all my eggs in this basket, let's see if this leads to anything". Not "I've put all my eggs in this basket, let's see if this leads to anything or if a nicer basket comes along".

But anyway, if indie's threatened departure is because of my questioning of her approach, I'll be happy to stay off her thread, so that she can continue. Just say the word, I don't need to be asked twice .

AGG

I think people can be committed to one another w/o engagement or marriage. Committed by definition means entrusted. Exclusive still means one. But anyway....

Just stay away from the committed but non-exclusive aka swingers and waywards lol.

See, I view her agreement as ONLY: exclusive dating temporarily. She has not made any committments to him and therefore, the interview process is still open. She hasn't put all her eggs in that basket, in other words.

See, that is where we part company, because a person is not committed until they get married. That would be like driving around somebody's car and claiming to be "committed" but never signing the paper work to buy the car. IF they aren't married, the person is morally and legally entitled to just move on when the spirit moves them. If it is not a legal marriage, the term "committed" is just talk.

Tell him to keep his mitts off the merchandise!!!

And vice versa!

Oh, and don't forget to come up for air

AGG

I know we disagree on this. You said engaged was committed in your previous post but not in this one. Engaged is still not committed then. I know this discussion has gone on in other threads...we all have different definitions and could go round and round forever...that was basically my point.

Engaged is a little committed, at best, because there has been a verbal promise, but that is not the same thing as marriage. Promises can be broken without penalty. A commitment is not demonstrated by empty words, but by a legal marriage. No one would take me seriously if I showed up at the local car dealership and told them I was "committed" to a certain car but never signed any papers. That would be just empty talk.

Is it called a snog, snogging or snogged when you have to come up for air?

And also the important thing is Indie's definition of exclusive. Lets not forget she is in the UK and I have gotten the idea all along that she is saying one thing and many of you are hearing another.

I think Melody's take on it is the one closest to how Indie is thinking and is NOT contrary to anything Dr. Harley has to say on dating.

Second chances are wonderful. I am always happy for my friends that find a new life...especially when I feel they have done the work to see where they went wrong the first time.

erm...i don't want to peeve anyone off or anything, but maybe someone could start a committed versus exclusive thread in other topics maybe? i've just caught up on indie's thread after more than a week away (about 300 posts), and frankly, there's been very little about indie and her new life, and a whole lotta "well i think XXX means..."

in summary, indie stated very early on in my catch up that she was only going to date artistman. since then, a lot of meaningless, really, debate on semantics. indie has told us what she means. she has stated that she and artistman have an O&H understanding of that meaning. that's all that matters, in MvHO.

indie, i'm not going to bother with my opinion about your decision (unless you ask, natch!). i just want to hear what's going on with you as a newly single gal. please do come back and post.

Why not put those of us whose posts you don't like on ignore? Problem solved! The subject of commitment and exclusivity is very relevant to the subject, but you don't have to read our "meaningless" posts.

I'm not sure why everybody is having a hard time with Indie's concept of exclusive. It seems pretty clear to me. She agreed to not parallel date while seeing Artistguy. She isn't committed to him and may decide to move on to other prospects at any time, but likes this guy enough to give him the spotlight for a while and see where it goes.

Personally I like the idea. It shows a lot of respect to Artistguy without making any real commitment.

I don't think that it will affect Indie's choices or goals that much as she is a smart cookie (one of the few that did a real plan B), the only downside I see is the disappointment Artistman will feel if she takes an interest in someone else, but then again that is the chance we all take in the dating world.

Honestly, his desire for serial dating shows some signs that he is a buyer at heart. I would be more concerned if he didn't care that she was dating others at the same time.

I think that this thread would be more useful if the focus was on how he treats Indie and if he is able to meet her needs or not as it seems kinda silly to discuss how committed she is when she has mentioned over and over that she is taking it slow, is open and perusing other prospects to date, but wants to take the time to see where this one goes.

ak

As for continuing to post, I think I have to think exactly what do I want to get out of this thread? I do very much want other people to be able to take something from my experiences. But I also need to think about myself first.

I think I have reached the point where I don�t want feedback. I'm feeling more confident about my instincts and it's too hard wearing on my feelings to have those instincts critiqued in the way they have been.

I have taken some offence at things said on this thread. But I ASKED for opinions, so I have no right to moan if I am specifically asking for it.

It's just all gotten rather personal. It was one thing when I was asking 'Should I see this random internet man this weekend if he hasn't called me yet?' It was fine getting feedback on that question.

But the issues have stepped up a gear. It is now my relationship attitude being criticised. That hurts. There is also now a RL person who I care about and am dating who will be examined and picked apart on here if I continue. I am not sure if that is something I want to invite, or if it is wise to do so.

For now, I'll answer some points, give you all an update and then I will have a really serious think about the direction I want this thread to take.

Update:

So last night was great. When he showed up to pick me up, he brought me some chocolates. We went for a quiet drink some places where we knew we could get some talking done. I keep being very impressed, not only by his interests and insight but by his relationship attitude.

He was showing some interest in the 30 dates concept. How did it work, why had it appealed to me, was I happy with my decision to date him; he was very insightful to talk to.

He's made a point of mentioning that he hates arguing. He's been in some relationships with people who think it's 'normal and healthy' but he just hates it. I was curious what WAS his conflict resolution approach then? I feared it was conflict avoidance. No. He basically gave me a layman's description of POJA. He said he felt that people 'damage' you when they are angry. And that 'It changes something in the brain when people behave like that towards you". I said people should take the Hippocratic oath before entering a relationship: "First, do no harm" and he was very taken with that idea.

I'm seeing him tonight too. Not sure what we're doing yet. And tomorrow we're going to go look for the first snowdrops, take a few pictures and get lunch.

I reeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaalllllllly like him.

No that would be so rude. I am interviewing for the post of his spouse too, remember. I want to make a good impression.

In fact I am not flirting AWAY from him either. I am prepared to, am looking to and would do, but I am not finding company stimulating enough that compares to him enough to do any flirting. At this point.

yes!

It's not you AGG, it's the way I set up the thread. Asking for feedback worked up to a point and now it doesnt feel like it is working any more.

I just told him I had a good Texan friend who has lots of guns

Thanks Lets, I did encourage the debate because I do like it normally. I am over it now!

Thank you ak, that means a lot

I think this is all perfectly understandable. This is your thread, after all. It was the reference to a specific Harley recommendation that got everything started...

You don't have to run your dating life according to anyone. And if you don't want feedback/criticism on this particular guy, you are entitled to post to minimize the chances of that.

I'm glad you still like him.

What she said.

Very happy for you!! You know who could be a great help is the poster optimism. I think he was even on the radio show with Dr Harley fine tuning his program while he was dating.