My wife and I have had our ups and downs. We have been married 13 years and have a 10 and 8 yo. I surprised her with a trip to Napa Thur- Sunday. We have 2 big dogs as well. I arranged it so I had someone covering the kids and dogs. All she had to do was enjoy. We are staying in San Fran just for Thursday night our flight gets in 2:30pm. We will leave for Napa in the morning. She is really excited. She really wants to see San Fran as much as Napa. I found out I have cousins in San Fran. I met my Aunt 3 times(she came to our wedding) and now I can meet for the first time my cousins. I arranged them to meet us at Fishermans Wharf for an hour. My wife flipped!! She said there is not enough time for this. We are only in San Fran for 1/2 a day. I told her they are meeting us where we are for an hour and it was important to me. We arent going out of the way. She is acting like a little kid and being so selfish. I know this sounds petty but If we were just dating I would end this relationship. Its hard to say that but I am so disgusted. I couldn't be with someone that wouldn't give up something so small that she knows would make me so happy. Like I said we have had our ups and downs but where did this side of her come from?? I've never seen this from her. She is really upset yelling and screaming how the trip is ruined. I dont even want to go on the trip anymore. The romance is gone and I wont be able to fix this in time. What to do...

Is this the first time she has yelled and screamed at you?

No. This time I look at her differently now after 13 years.

You are engaging in independent behavior, as defined by Dr Harley. You then compound the crime by making a disresepctful judgement by calling her "selfish."

here

She shouldn't be having angry outbursts, but you should apologize for making plans without her consent. That was extremely thoughtless. AND....it doesn't work in marriage. AS YOU HAVE DISCOVERED!!

These are all true. I am just a family guy. I shouldn't assume she would be happy for me to meet new family members. This took me by surprise and I should have asked her first. I am just so bummed about this trip. We haven't gone on a vacation in 7 years and I plan a trip to Napa for the 2 of us. Couples massages, wine tasting, and no kids and there will be NO other extra curricular activities now. Great....

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.htmlttp://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3550_give.htmlf I may guess, the two of you have not been spending enough time together to stay in love.

Because you both love each other and want your marriage to work, you planned this exciting trip (marvelous idea) and your wifewas very excited about it.

Then it went wrong. And it went wrong exactly then, when she expected you to sacrifice for her and you expected her to sacrifice on your behalf.
If the two of you would be dating you would probably be in love and to reach an agreement that makes both of you happy would have been easier.

Please stop thinking bad things of her, just because she does not feel as you do at this point. She on ths other hand should find ways to make her needs known to you in a more constructive way.

Read up on the giver and the taker here under "basic concepts".

You feel "bummed" because of all the lovebusters flying between the two of you. You have been demanding and disrespectful and she has had angry outbursts. This will drain any person's love.

So, make a commitment to never be demanding or disrespectful again. Read up on these lovebusters to learn how to avoid them. Also read up on the Policy of Joint Agreement.

Go on the trip with your wife. Focus on each other WITHOUT the lovebusters, and you will start to feel better.

Feels like a lot of woman commenting. I will read to try improve things. Seems like we are becoming more distant lately so i will try anything. Thanks for all the advice...

I would imagine you guys have probably fought a lot in your 13 years. Have you read Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts? He explains the concept of the Love Bank - behaviors like fighting result in love bank withdrawals, leading to your feelings for each other going from love, to like, to neutral, to dislike. Eventually the feelings will go to hate.

Your wife is asking you to not put your desires above her feelings. This is a good rule to follow in marriage - it prevents love bank withdrawals, leading to sustained compatibility and happiness in marriage for life. Any time a husband or wife does what they want to do regardless of their spouse's feelings, it is a love bank withdrawal - this kind of behavior, repeated, leads to the destruction of a marriage.

The way your wife is asking for your consideration is a love bank withdrawal - an angry outburst. It has a negative effect on your feelings for her. But what she is asking for is not wrong - it's the kind of consideration that is necessary in order to make a marriage work. If either spouse decides they have to do something regardless of how their spouse feels about it, it will eventually lead to the destruction of their feelings for each other, and of their marriage.

I would suggest the two of you get the book Love Busters. In it, Dr. Harley teaches you how to stop fighting and learn to live in a way that is considerate of each other and does not have any love bank withdrawals. It took me a couple of years to learn these new habits, but now we don't fight any more, and my marriage is very happy!

I know but a chance to meet cousins for the first time ever? They are going to be where we are at. It can't get any easier. My cousin even said this is your time to relax without the kids. Some hugs and pictures is all they need. She said next year we can plan a longer meet. I don't really feel like I am asking too much am I??

I would highly suggest it! Dr. Harley's recommendation is that whenever either one of you wants to do something, you ask the other "How would you feel about ... ?" and if the other does not feel enthusiastic, you don't do it and instead look for an alternative you will both feel enthusiastic about.

You'll never go wrong following this suggestion. My wife and I follow it all the time now and the result has been that we are both happy after several years of unhappiness in our marriage.

That's my thinking exactly - this is a special time without the kids - so DON'T fill it up with other people! Use it to focus on the two of you. I think both my wife and I would be upset if either one of us invited other people into a trip we were taking without the kids. (We have six, with one on the way.)


Well, you are asking to get your way at the expense of your wife's feelings. That's the kind of thing that makes for unhappiness in marriage, and ultimately destroys marriages. I think it's not a very good idea!

You are asking the wrong person(s). Does your W say it is too much, out-of-line, for her?

By creating an interdependent relationship where all decisions are made together you'll avoid these kinds of "bummers". FYI the trip isn't wrecked it if you realize what you've done to create this tension and rectify it with her. People that are in love forgive so long as there's a plan for avoiding the hurtful act.

Please understand this from her perspective (likely perspective). A beautiful vacation with just you two, and now she has to spend part of that 1/2 day in San Fran by meeting practical strangers. Some wives would be fine with that, some would not. What matters here is that your wife is NOT.

When she voiced this to you (in a disrespectful manner as an AO) then you deemed her selfish rather than consider that imposing your plans on her was selfish.

Understand you are placing the importance of meeting strangers (yes, blood related, but you are both adults so these are basic strangers) above the vacation happiness of your WIFE and mother of your children.

So, back to the drawing board. Time for POJA. I would approach her and apologize for imposing demands. I would talk to her about the concept of POJA and decide a mutually enthusiastic decision.

If I were here, I think I would be more than happy for him to go meet his cousins but I would dread such thought for myself. I would be happy to be dumped the hotel spa for an hour instead. I would agree enthusiastically to that, which would make us both happy.

Your thoughts on working with her on this issue - rather than the blame game? You might get what you want and so can she.

I have already apologized. I am upset but I want this to work out. We wont be able to take another trip like this for a long time. I will keep you posted....

Have you talked to her about the concept of POJA? Remember, it's a method for to get "her way", it's a way to make both of you enthusiastically happy! It's win-win.

So what does DVD do to address the angry outbursts? That's completely unacceptable, and he indicates that this is not the first time it has happened.

DVDman, Markos is exactly right, you can't go wrong following this suggestion. My own husband really hates being roped into family/friend gatherings so I have learned to make sure he is enthusiastic before I ever make plans. I have learned the hard way that roping him into reluctant agreements always translates into an unhappy experience.

Independent behavior with family can be devastating to a marriage. Focus on living in the present this weekend with your wife and make it the most enjoyable experience possible. If you do look back at this event, the only thing you should do is learn from it. Ideally you would have said, "Honey, how would you feel about carving out an hour to meet the aunt and cousins for the first time at Fisherman's Wharf?" You might also learn from this event that she might say "no" and that means you wouldn't go because you both don't agree. Lastly, you might consider that you could have suggested alternate workarounds that your wife my be ok with such as seeing them another time, for a shorter period of time, etc.

Something like, "You know, I realize that I made that decision without you which was wrong and I'm sorry. I won't do that moving forward, I'll always ask first to make sure we both agree on our agenda on vacation. When you got angry at me for what I did, it made me feel awful and I'd appreciate it if in the future you let me know how much it hurt you without getting angry."

Not to distract too much from DVD's thread, but I meant the angry outbursts in general, because we know that a good marriage is not sustainable when they happen. He has to have some recourse....

Can you take this to your thread instead?

I think she was excited about finally having a vacation after 7 years, and a romantic one at that. A second honeymoon lasting a short 4 days. Then you tell her that you want to share this romantic honeymoon with other people - dining out time to boot. I'm guessing she felt you were doing something to show her she's special to you, then dashed that feeling by telling her one of your most important things on the itinerary is to spend time with other people. Essentially, letting other people in on your intimacy and this takes the romance out of the trip.

Let this be your time with her alone and pick another time to visit your cousins.

Well everything turn out perfect! The night before We left when we were fighting she woke me up in the middle of the night for a little pre vacation fun. I was thrown off by this because she only does this a few times throughout the year. These are the things that confuse us men but I am not complaining. It broke the tension. We saw my cousin the next day for an hour. It was great seeing them and I think she saw how happy it made me and was fine. Napa Valley a must if you want a romantic get away!

Props to your wife for caring for you and your m!

But....it seems she solved this by giving in. You don't want to have that happen again. You still have some repair work to do.

Read the material on POJA. Start with small decisions and begin applying POJA in you marriage.

Congratulations. You gained at your wife's expense.

This is not a long-term sustainable way to do marriage.

You "think" she was fine, but she was very clear with you that she was not "fine" with seeing your cousins. You browbeat her into submission to your agenda.

Come to think of it, you ignored every poster's advice here, too. If you continue to operate this way, you'll be a lonely man someday.

To quote Luke Skywalker, "I have a bad feeling about this."

Sounds like it was perfect for one of you...

I doubt your wife feels the same way. BUT...She has probably built the habit of giving into your selfish demands over the years. Her resentment will build and it will come out sideways...

...and you'll say you were 'blindsided.'

It is possible that his wife had a change of heart and decided it was okay to see the family. And, maybe, he badgered her into it. We don't know based on his post.

There have been times when my wife or I have not been enthusiastic about something the other spouse wanted to do. And then after thinking about it for a bit, we realized we were having a knee jerk reaction and that it really wouldn't be that big of a deal.

For example, perhaps she realized that she was going to have a great time overall and that his seeing his family would make him happy. And, that in turn, would make her happy. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.

I doubt Dvdman even knows the answer to that, based on how he has described their relationship here. They do not have the skills to negotiate a problem this big. He really needs to find out if his wife has sacrificed for him, even if he didn't "badger" her into it. ANY sacrifice is detrimental to their marriage.

As adamant as she was about not meeting the family, I doubt her feelings on the issue really changed. Sacrifice is a more likely possibility.

My husband had a very BAD HABIT of capitulation in order to keep the peace. This has been one of the hardest things to break him of in our marriage. And he just did it again last month!! I suspect the wife did exactly that, she capitulated in order to avoid his disappointment.

....tough crowd. She did not feel guilty and give in. It was about 1 in the morning and I was in a deep sleep. She WOKE me up. I asked her why she honestly did that since everyone here pointed the finger at me. She said she manipulated her pills so she wouldn't get her period the same week of our vacation! Must have messed with her hormones! Sometimes you just get lucky.

As a woman, I find her behaviour quite like women who try to apologize/capitulate with sex and blaming moods, rather than a genuine change of heart. Changing pills around to fit vacation? Sorry DVDMan but I think that is something a woman might say to a man (who doesn't necessarily understand cycles) in order to mask her upset over an issue.

POJA... you guys need it. There is only so much capitulating before resentment builds.

I don't see anything in that post that suggests she didn't decide to make a sacrifice for you by seeing your family on vacation. She was adamant about not wanting to meet them on your trip, and all of the sudden she just changed her mind? You just got lucky? Feelings don't typically just change like that.

You would be wise to read up on sacrifice and why it is bad for your marriage.

She changed her pill cycle for our honeymoon too so it wouldn't be that time on our honeymoon. I remember this trick. I guess you could be right but she is not the type of person to "give in that way". She was still upset that we saw my family don't get me wrong, but I think she saw how excited I was and she calmed down. I personally think i just got lucky. Her hormones were off and being being in Napa can change your mood quickly.

DVDman, this is how resentment is created in marriages. She capitulated to do something she didn't want to do and it is not something she will soon forget. This is why reluctant agreements are so bad for marriage. You gained at her expense.

She capitulated.

Your wife was still upset, in other words, you still did this despite her feelings. Was the purpose of this thread to help learn how to negotiate things so that you are both happy? Or was it for us to just call your wife selfish and tell her you are right?

She probably tells you what you want to hear and blames various things like hormones or whatever, to brush it off. There is only so much of that until she starts getting resentful of the fact that you don't wish to negotiate to make her happy.

Would you like to learn how to negotiate so you are BOTH happy?

Of course I would. We are doing well. Always open to learning...

I would say you are doing well ... in the moment. Unfortunately LBs like IB create withdrawals from your LB scorecard. Once you do something else that is a LB to her she'll add this incident to the tally of her Bank.

This is an opportune moment for you to have a discussion with your W on how you realize she may have sacrificed and that that has no place in your M. Don't sweep this under the rug. It could be a defining moment in your R ... and to do it while you're riding the high of "doing well" ... even better.

Anything EXCEPT consider her feelings about meeting your family...

You may not see this now, but in a few more years her resentment will have built, and she'll walk out. You'll beg for her return, tear out your hair and wonder, "what went wrong?!"

You might want to read some of the threads on this forum by men who have lost their wives after years of walking over their feelings. It's pretty heart-breaking.

In the meantime, a great first step would be to apologize for gaining at her expense, and to promise to never do ANYTHING again without BOTH of your enthusiastic agreement. It's called POJA, and it's what will save you from the fate of those other men.