Hi,
I am new here and have some questions. I am reading and reading MB and trying to apply it to my M. We have been married 8 years, and are in our 40's. My H had an A, I found out last July, we have been in MC and he is in IC. He and the OW lost their jobs over it, so there are financial issues now too. It's been hell, of course.

We are making two steps forward, then one back, progress. It's progress.

I feel that his IC is hindering our M though. He had a LOT of childhood trauma. Could be a movie of the week. He hasn't dealt with it. Now he is, and he is giving the IC permission to talk to our MC. The IC doesn't have our M as a goal at al. She is interested in him becoming healthy only, and if the M is still there, great.

While is he listening to the MC also, I feel that the IC is not a friend of our marriage.

Thoughts?

An IC usually is not a friend of marriage. And more often than not, neither are marriage counselors. An IC will help your H pursue his feelings de jour, at the expense of the marriage. It is just a DISTRACTION from the real problem, which is the marriage. Dr Harley says that when a counselor gets off into childhood issues, you may be there for years, diverted from solving present day problems. He believes it is a way to keep people coming back for years, paying for your services, but never helping the person.

Dr Harley is a credentialed, licensed psychologist, who has saved thousands of marriages, and this is what he says:


here

here

here

p.s one does not have to go into their childhood to solve problems of the present. That is ridiculous. That is just a DISTRACTION and DIVERSION from changing current behavior.

Melody - thank you! I think so too! The IC is convinced that she will help him heal and then he will be good for the M. She said to him "you aren't good for anybody right now, including yourself." While this is true, dredging all this stuff up for the past 6 months hasn't really helped him or us.

They don't even focus on the A. They do focus on his trauma and PTSD, the consequences of his A decisions - job loss, loss of reputation, loss of friends, almost lost marriage, legal impacts, etc. She does hold him accountable for his A and the bad decisions he made.

But it seems to stop us from moving forward as well as we could. The MC is helping. She uses MB principles and she specializes in infidelity. She is helping him learn to help me heal, but also helping us both to develop a better M.

This is not how people get better and change their lives. This is just a needless distraction.

So do I ask him to quit IC? Or perhaps talk about it with our MC?

His mother is here visiting and she agrees. She wants to go to IC with him on Monday and he has agreed.

If it were me, I would print up the Dr Harley quotes and hand them to him. Explain to him that IC is cute and trendy, but it is a distraction from the real problem. It is a complete waste of time. He does not have to resolve childhood trauma to solve adult problems. And if he is busy focusing on the past, he won't be focusing on ways to make the present GREAT.

Another good resource that addresses this little "counseling" fad is One Nation Under Therapy by Christina Hoff Sommers and Sally Patel, M.D. This book reviews numerous studies that show that counseling can sometimes be harmful and distracting. I know it was for me personally. I felt cute and trendy but it did nothing to solve my current problems.

On the other hand, my life changed dramatically in Alcoholics Anonymous, which is a BEHAVIOR BASED program much like Marriage Builders. And they didn't want to hear my CRAP when I went to AA. They told me I needed to shut and listen, since the only thing I knew how to do was screw up my life. Shutting up and listening was the best thing I ever did!

That is such good advice. You know, he has been saying that he "needs a plan", "has no direction" and the IC keeps focusing on the trama and having him read books about self-esteem and abandonment. He has remarked that they are good, but they need to have endings that direct readers on what to DO rather than just focus on feelings only!

We have a friend who is a recovered alcoholic - 18 years - and she says that she is so glad she is one because of AA. She knows what she is, she can go somewhere where they tell you what to do and you need to do it!

Maybe he should find a 12 step program to join!

Marriage Builders IS that plan for struggling marriages. It is a very detailed plan that is based on behavioral changes. I would follow the program outlined in Surviving an Affair and Lovebusters and ditch the IC! Good luck!

I will chime in with one kind of IC that *does* IMHO tend to help, if applied correctly. It's called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy or CBT. The "bible" of this kind of therapy is The Feeling Good Handbook by Dr. David Burns. But as ML has said, I think the reason it works is because while it acknowledges past issues as real, it doesn't focus on them. It focuses on changing current thought processes and behaviours.

If your H's therapist isn't doing CBT work with him, I agree it'll just be more of the same on and on. IMHO, CBT can and does work well with MB. You might see if he's willing to switch to a CBT IC for his personal issues. They deal with PTSD and anxiety issues very well.

The bottom line is he doesn't need individual counseling to resolve marriage problems, he needs a good marriage program and a qualified marriage counselor. Focusing on ones childhood to fix a MARRIAGE is a distraction and a diversion. Very trendy and cute, but basically worthless.

Speaking as someone who had an A and - as a bipolar - has some experience with IC, I agree with both Mel and AC. The best kind of IC is CBT. My first IC wanted to spend time tracing back my earliest feelings of rejection back to kindergarten while my M lay bleeding in the wake of my A. Useless. And let me tell ya, my childhood wasn't perfect.

I would talk to your H about these very valid concerns. If you two call the Harley's they will be able to give you even better guidance about IC's. As far as his IC wanting to help him work through depression all the consequences caused, those are normal. I cheated, and there were consequences both for me and for the innocent family I hurt. The key to REAL self esteem is to face the ugly honestly, make amends, and become once again a H who can love and care for his family.

I am so sorry that you are going through this. My last suggestion would be to try to find him a male IC. My most recent encounter with a counselor who was a man was an exercise in discomfort - he basically hit on me.

Your H needs good counsel on finding the right IC. This is something you can help him to see, esp if his mother agrees.

He is doing CBT with the IC. They are focused on overcoming the trauma. But to me, after 6 months, I question whether or not he is making progress or having a plan to follow.

She says he is making progress and he feels he is, too.

I will dissent to a degree. Only in that YOUR most important issue is your MARRIAGE, whereas he lives within himself 24/7 and you have no real idea what he thinks about nor what he feels in any given day or time.

While I absolutely agree that for MARRIAGE COUNSELING, dredging up the past is of little use. The real issue for HIM is that he might have some crap running around in his brain which has stopped him from relating to the world in general in a productive way. And while I agree that Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is the best way to deal with it, simply ignoring that HE has issues in order to get your MARRIAGE back where you want it is self-centered.

You might see the marriage as the biggest issue... He might see his LIFE as the biggest issue.

I absolutely agree that MB principles make the most sense. But don't get caught on what YOU perceive as the thing you want solved most as being the only thing of consequence. I absolutely agree that there are a TON of crap counselors out there who don't really understand how to improve a person's life in a realistic way. I absolutely believe that there is alot of crap psychology/psychologists out there as well. He might need something different, all I am saying is don't discount what HE needs for himself in an effort to gain from him what is most important to you.

D&S, please get that book I recommended above. I also had a very traumatic childhood and this book explained why my counseling kept me crippled. It did not resolve any problems, rather it kept me triggered and angry and focused on the PAST.

And as long as that was the case, I was not focused on solutions for the PRESENT. [marriage problems AND living problems] Dr Harley does NOT say this in conjunction to only solving marriage problems, either. He does not believe one needs to IC to examine their childhood to change current behavior.

The truth is that we do not have to explore our childhood to change CURRENT behavior. We simply need to focus on the PRESENT.

What problems is your H seeing this counselor FOR?

here

I know that certain things about my life and how I was raised affected my behavior. But all I really needed to do about that was identify it, learn how to let go of it, and change patterns. I think the idea of dissecting every painful event and thought we have ever had is NOT healing; it's just navel gazing and keeps us stuck. I am a thinker, so I could sit in this chair and analyze why I think, what I think, how I think it, and how it all makes me think I feel for the rest of my life -- literally. This does not give me depth or heal my psyche, it just means I atrophy and the dishes don't get done.

Bottom line for me, the deep thinking bipolar who is adopted and suffered sexual abuse, ACTION is the key. I can visualize forgiving my abuser all day long. If my present life and marriage are crappy, none of that matters.

I am not opinionated at all am I? Maybe I should ponder that for awhile.....:)

I am ordering the book today, thanks Melody!

He is seeing the IC because he realized the A was all his fault and he wanted to "fix what is wrong." He is an unhappy, angry person who how felt entitled. He doesn't have a good moral compass. He doesn't take responsibility for his actions, and doesn't know how. He has trouble making friends. He is very self-centered and selfish.

In his attempts to be O and H, he gave written permission for the IC and our MC to talk and share information. I also went to IC with him once, to meet her and ask any questions I wanted. The IC and MC said he is very wounded, doesn't know how to be empathetic and is learning, and is making progress towards taking responsibility and being less self-centered.

The IC flat out said that our M and the A are not her concern. Her concern is getting my H healthy. The behaviors he had which damanged the M and let to do the A are her concern.

This is all so confusing. Thank you all for helping me make sense of it.

Bingo! The same here. All I had to do was CHANGE my behavior. I didnt' need to know why I was that way to change it. In fact, trying to figure out why was a waste of time and a distraction. I will probably NEVER know why. Who cares?

I spent years flapping my gums in a counselor's chair and never got anywhere, except angry, depressed and bitter. I caused more holes in the ozone than all the Aquanet being sprayed in the state of Texas. That really made my life better, NOT!! So, I went into AA and they told me they didn't want to hear my crap, that I should shut up and listen to THEM.

Once I focused on changing current behavior, my life started changing in a dramatic and effective way. I discovered a very simple truth that separates the successful programs from the duds: FEELINGS FOLLOW ACTIONS. The successful programs are action oriented, bring the body and the mind will follow.

A waste of time. Dr Harley will tell him why he had the affair FOR FREE and he is a clinical psychologist and the founder of Marriage Builders:

here

There ya go! Now he knows why he had the affair!

I think so too! He needs to take action instead of passively waiting to feel better. He isn't feeling better, he is feeling worse! Not to mention all the focus on me-me-me all the time.

I have a hard time seeing how understanding why he treats people badly will help him stop. He just needs to stop! Once he treats people better, they will respond, and he will feel better!

He thinks I am simplifying too much, but heck, it works for me in my life!

If I were in your shoes, I would go to a Marriage Builders weekend. That way, you would both have daily access to Dr Harley over on the weekend forum. You are also assigned a marriage coach who contacts you weekly to guide your lessons. When someone is messing up, Dr Harley works them over. And he is a clinical psychologist.

It is an ACTION plan that sets goals and gets results. They don't mess around with any nonsense. They have an exceptional track record of success. That is how I would go if I were you. [my H and I went this route] You will start seeing immediate changes.

I will ask him to go. It seems expensive but so are months and months of therapy! Thanks for the suggestion.

Listen, my H used to have angry outbursts. They ended when Dr Harley told him to go to anger management classes and KNOCK IT OFF. That was back in 2007 and he STOPPED THAT DAY.

Who cares WHY he does that? He doesn't need to know that to stop. He needs to knock it off.

You will see results RIGHT AWAY. It is worth every penny. Others here who went are tst and SMB, Mr and MrsW, Vittoria, marriedforever, LousyGolfer; [just off the top of my head] we all have great marriages.

I occasionally visit a forum for people with bipolar disorder. I can't take going there very often. Most of it is a dissection of obsessive thoughts, detailing over and over what they all did while manic, and a lot of online crying. Now, sometimes I DO need a good cry, and I do need DH to hold me while I vent all the jumbled thoughts and feelings. But mostly I need to take my meds and put one foot in front of the other. That doesn't mean my pain or disease isn't real; but it means that I can't LIVE there.

I have a DH and two children. Waiting until I understand all of my feelings before I lift a finger to make THEIR lives better is not going to work. My kids will be grown and my marriage will be over. My kids and my M are PART of who I am, and any IC I have had better be concerned about them.

I hope your H will consider the MB weekend. I have never been, but I can imagine it would be just what the doctor ordered (no pun intended).

I hope he will consider the MB weekend also. I see him just wallowing in his grief and sadness, and it doesn't get him or us anywhere. He is full of sorrow and sadness, and it's a negative downward spiral.

We know what his issues are, and while it is NOT fair that he underwent trauma, he is almost giving into it and letting it control him and our marriage and family. When I push to move forward, I am told that I don't understand. Maybe I don't; I didn't have those experiences. I have experienced betrayal (from him in the form of an A) so I have some understanding of what intimate betrayal feels like.

I can so relate to this. When my son was killed I was pushed into an online forum for grieving parents. I RAN FOR MY LIFE!! The devastation, the reliving of the trauma triggered me so bad that I knew I would be an emotional cripple if I stayed there.

I discovered years later that the people who stayed there were just as torn up and dysfunctional YEARS LATER as they were when it first happened. They are emotional cripples. My solution to the grief was to throw myself back into life and stop talking about it all the time.

In the book I recommended above, they cite studies that show that folks who participate in grief counseling,[for traumatic events] support groups, etc, actually DO WORSE than those who DON'T. They stay depressed and grief stricken much, much longer than those who have no counseling whatsoever.

I just found the book on ebay - like new condition and only $5 with shipping!

I wonder if my BAN support group is going to hinder my healing from my H's A? It feels so good to have people who understand, though!

I would suggest his IC is keeping him depressed just as Dr Harley said.

I would also point out that you underwent a WORSE TRAUMA when he had his affair. This affair was as psychologically traumatic as RAPE OR THE DEATH OF A CHILD. And he did that purposely to you. He ABUSED you and he needs to do something about the abuse he inflicted on you rather than wallowing around in self pity. What about YOUR GRIEF? Your trauma? What is he doing about that? check out this video and article: here

It depends. If they sit around and waller in their pain and talk the problem to death, they probably won't be much help, but if they focus on solutions, it would be productive. I found the SAA forum very helpful, on the other hand, because they focus on solutions. In AA they don't sit around and yap about getting drunk or feel sorry for themselves, they talk about how to use the program and get better.

The BAN group does focus on solutions and moving forward. We agreed when we started that it wouldn't be a husband or wife bashing group. We sometimes laugh at the crazy things we've done back when we found out, and also try to help new members who just found out. It's the usual advice - no contact, getting tested for STDs, exposure. Some of the members have a sexually addicted spouse and know of some 12 step programs locally. Others have referrals to good MCs, doctors if the new member wants or needs ADs. And, of course, those who have moved on to a better marriage and healed give hope to those of us who are working towards that goal.

I don't understand why such anti-social, anti-civilization, anti-marriage psychopaths are allowed to be counselors.

I really don't understand how anyone with this mindset could be a counselor. Keeping one's wedding vows are not optional!

I also don't understand why a husband or wife who goes to a counselor, individually or together, wouldn't immediately kick to the curb any counselor who talked like this. Before seeing Steve Harley for telephone marriage coaching, my wife and I saw three marriage counselors. That was always my first test with them: if any of them had suggested we end the marriage, I would have never come back. One of them came very, very close to suggesting that I needed to end the marriage, and then hid in a cloud of psychobabble and feigned innocence saying she hadn't suggested anything and revealing that she really didn't know what "decision" she was talking about when she told me I had to make a decision. We quit seeing her very shortly thereafter.

I am GLAD that I do not understand these people, and I hope I stay that way for the rest of my life. Everybody should understand that these attitudes are not normal and are anti-civilization!

I hate to tell you, but mainstream clinical psychology and individual counseling is predicated on individual happiness, and even the latest methods, such as Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, are directly evolved from Freudian and Jungian psychoanalysis of childhood trauma.

Dr. Harley's approach is outside the mainstream because is focused on the marriage, and subordinates the individual to the marriage. It also deals with the present, by taking action on cognitive awareness of what you are doing in the present - stop doing the bad things and do more good things. Happiness will come from being happily married and feeling loved, not from self-indulgent diversions or blaming your parents, teachers and siblings for being the source of your bad feelings, bad beliefs, bad attitude, and bad behavior.

disgustedandsad,

I agree with TACs post above and I am experiencing it now.

Although some of the people here advised me to NOT see an IC, I have to tell you seeing an IC has helped me 100% and it is assisting me as I am doing the MB program. My therapist is using CBT just the way TAC is describing. We talk about my issues with my family only as needed to address what we're working on in the CBT. I found that the past (& present issues) are useful examples for the CBT. I do not feel like we're dwelling on them, and my IC told me up front that CBT has a definitively finite course. At first that surprised me, but what I have experienced with CBT for myself is how darned rapidly it works.

Where I part ways with the IC Is A Waste of Time crowd is this:

You can't have a healthy marriage with an individual who is psychologically unhealthy.
For example, take a person who is addicted to drugs or alcohol, clinically depressed, schizophrenic, or bipolar and try to have a GOOD MARRIAGE with them. What do you think you'll experience? The IC Is A Waste of Time crowd likes to cite Harley as saying IC can keep you in IC for years digging up the past (very true!), but they don't cite where he says that addiction and other psychlogical issues will serve to block Marriage Building activities. Here's what Dr H says about Depression: Treat the Depression first and then the Marriage.

I hear you saying that you think this IC is a waste of time and not a friend to your M. If that's the case, and your H is in need of IC please consider seeking an IC with a program which will help him and IS a friend to your M. That's what I did & the benefits were swift and clear.

Something to consider.

D&S,
Maybe a good question would simply be "Spouse, what is your goal for IC?"

If it was to recognize all the bad things that you can use as excuses to keep doing stupid or bad things now then you have already exposed all the bad things that happened decades ago.

Next.

As in Next is your turn to state a goal for marriage like "Spouse I know you had a tough childhood and you were treated cruelly and I really want to help you overcome that by having a great life now with me in a great marriage that will make up for all the crappy stuff you had to deal with years ago. Can I help you with ...

(I'd go out on a limb here and make the offer for SF knowing most men put that atop their ENs list but you say whatever you think is best at the time)

I want to echo what Chris just said... You can't have a healthy marriage with someone who is psychologically unhealthy. Now, none of us are perfect, BUT. When one person in a marriage cannot even relate in an honest way and keep agreements or even see realistically what the issues are because of their psychological issues, all the MB in the world won't help. They have issues of their own to deal with first. MB didn't stand a chance in my marriage until my H had IC. I had to go first with some clear boundaries (this was the ownership I had to take in the issues - my boundaries were non-existant in all practicality, and *I* needed IC to do THAT) and refuse to stay in a marriage like that, and basically tell him to get IC or get out. Once he got IC, and fixed some of the major issues, MB then had the fertile ground on both sides to work. But it had to be the right kind of IC, because I *DO* agree with Dr. H that most IC are NOT interested in keeping marriages together, and most don't know how. My IC doesn't, but her function was to get my head straight about boundaries.

I get upset when I hear all IC being slammed as being horrid, when my experience is that IC has supported MB, and has been a completely positive experience for both me and my H.

I don't see *ALL* IC's as good, but I don't like hearing people warned away from IC if they need it.

Thanks for the all the information to think about!

My worry about IC not being a friend of the marriage was because the IC stated that she was interested in getting him healthy, and THEN worrying about the M. That bothered me. The IC is tough, and she doesn't let him make excuses or use the past as an excuse. The IC wants him to make changes in how he behaves, and that part I like.

My H has been clinically depressed and is finally on good meds. He is learning to be empathetic, because that is something he didn't learn growing up. His IC is also focused on boundaries, because his are terrible of course.

I am just frustrated that we can't work on M as thoroughly and quickly as others can.

Chris, her husband is none of the above. He is going to counseling in an attempt to resolve his childhood problems BEFORE he works on his marriage; a collosal waste of time. NOWHERE does Dr Harley tell people to go to a counselor to resolve their childhood problems. In fact he CLEARLY STATES right here:


While he does advocate getting help via anti-depressants, he DOES NOT tell anyone they need to go to an IC to yap about their childhoods in order to resolve current problems. That is just a distraction and a diversion that keeps the person DEPRESSED.

And keep in mind that Dr Harley is much more credentialed than a "counselor." He is a psychyologist.

And secondly, people who are addicted to drugs or alcohol DO NOT benefit from IC; it is a WASTE OF TIME. Counselors are not qualified to help addicts. In fact, counselors come to AA and NA for their own addictions. They call we AA members to take their clients to meetings. What they benefit from is 12 step programs that focus on changing CURRENT BEHAVIOR.

Many of us have been brainwashed into believing we have to get "counseling" to discuss childhood problems in order to be happy as adults. That is nonsense. Anyone who believes that, needs to treat themselves to the book I recommended above - One Nation Under Therapy by Christina Hoff Sommers and Sally Patel, M.D. - that outlines how the counseling culture in the US has harmed people, rather than helped them.

Don't include me as being against IC. A lot of times it is appropriate, and is necessary to clean up severe personality disorders, depression, etc in order to be able to work on your marriage.

But when there is not a serious personality disorder, drug addiction, alcohol problems, chronic depression, IC is not necessary as a prerequisite to start working on your marriage. Depending upon the therapy and therapist, it may be at odds with the marriage counseling or individual efforts.

Each case is different. Use some common sense, and see if it serves your marriage and individual problems, or not.

If you follow the link I provided earlier, you'll see that Dr H said the same thing about "The Depressed Spouse". You can also read in the newsletters here that Dr. H says the same thing about spouses who are addicted to drugs / alcohol.


As you can see, treating a psychological problem and then the marriage doesn't mean a therapist is not a friend of the marriage.


Now we have the real issue out in the open. In that case, my input is: Have patience.

You should be seeing clear improvements in your H after a few sessions, especially since he's taking his meds and they seem to be "good" as you put it. If not, time to pick another IC and take another look @ his meds. In the meantime, get all schooled up on MB. Read the books, etc. Set a date for hime and you to evaluate his progress together (say a month?)...This way you will not feel like you're just sitting idle. If his progress is good and contiues on an upward trend, you can start MB together while he continues IC

What do you think about those suggestions?

Chris, if she follows that link, NOWHERE does Dr Harley tell people with depression or addictions to go to an IC and waste time talking about their childhoods. Please read what he is actually saying. He CLEARLY advocates the OPPOSITE as posted above. Her H is not "addicted" and even if he were, the solution is NOT to go to a counselor dredging up childhood traumas. That is a DISTRACTION and is clearly NOT recommended.

Agree. And even with addiction problems, counseling is a complete waste of time. Frankly, I don't know of any conditions that would be remedied by exploring one's childhood. As one who suffered from depression, addiction AND a traumatic childhood and traumatic adulthood, yakking about the past was NEVER the solution.

While Dr Harley does recommmend anti-depressants for depression, he does not tell people to go to counselors and yap about their childhood.

Taking a somewhat opposite tack here, I will say from the research I've done and the counseling I've had, people who are afflicted with Cluster B personality disorders (Narcissistic, Borderline, Histrionic and Antisocial/Sociopath) are very difficult to treat.

In the words of Colleen E. Warner, Psy.D., even therapists are loathe to treat them due to the high emotional cost to the therapist:

I think it may be very important to understand if one is dealing with a disordered person, because dealing with them is bout as successful as dealing with an active alcoholic or addict, as ML states.

Cluster B personality disorders are learned behaviors, caused by traumatic and dysfunctional experiences during childhood. They are not based on genetics or chemical imbalances.

markos, and this seems to be the way of psychobabble artists, they never want to be held accountable so they speak in vague, incoherent ambiguities. Dr Harley touches on this somewhat in his book Effective Marriage Counseling. You know how traditional psychotherapists don't really give guidance or opinions, but ask the client to discuss his feelings? This is based on the belief that the true answer to the problem is "within" and if the client just yaps enough he will figure it out on his own. What amazes me most about this process is that it doesn't seem to occur to the founder of this silly philosophy that the clients best thinking got him in this mess in the first place. His thinking is the PROBLEM, so how can it be the solution?

But the cool thing is that the "counselor" can NEVER be held accountable for the FAILURE since the "plan" comes from "within" the client by yapping endlessly. The counselor can therefore blame any failures on the CLIENT. Nice, huh?

Dr Harley, on the other hand, not only proposes a PLAN, but he tracks his progress and HOLDS HIMSELF ACCOUNTABLE FOR FAILURES IF HIS PLAN FAILS. For a long time he wouldn't even CHARGE clients until he came up with a winning plan.

That is how MB and other behavioral programs differ. They are not based on this kind of nonsense. Rather they hold that the person who screwed things up should shut up and listen and learn NEW BEHAVIORS from someone who knows how to solve the problem.

As a person with a very screwed up past: alcoholic, abuse victim, etc, etc, etc, I only knew how to screw things up. I was very good at that. I needed someone to teach me how to live the RIGHT WAY. And that solution was not to be found in my "childhood." I have made dramatic changes in my life since I changed my behavior and those changes did not come from flapping my lips, but from shutting up and listening. Tomorrow will be 25 years since my LAST DRINK, btw.

Chris makes some very important points.

AFAIK one cannot legally get ADs without a medical doctor's prescription. That often means seeing a *psychiatrist* (not a psychologist, who cannot write prescriptions). Sure, a person can often go to their GP and talk them into writing a script for the latest feel-good drug they saw advertised on TV, but is that recommended? IMO, no.

Then, the psychiatrist will hopefully monitor the patient or have them continue to see a psychologist or other IC, because it is highly unethical to hand out ADs like candy and not follow up. There are many different kinds of ADs and it is NOT a one-size-fits-all. There are many side effects, some dangerous, including an increased risk of SUICIDE when starting new ADs.

There are more reasons to see an IC than just to "yap about their childhood."

I *strongly* urge ppl seeing an IC and starting new ADs to NOT suddenly stop seeing their IC.

Interesting, Fred! And as a longtime member of AA, how many times have you seen "counselors" come to AA for their own addiction problems?

I agree that one should see a psychiatrist to get on AD's if they are depressed; that is exactly what Dr Harley recommends. And this guy has done this. However, that misses the point. He is seeing an IC to yap about his childhood. THAT is the issue. That is a waste of time, JUST AS DR HARLEY STATES.

disgustedandsad, stick to what Dr Harley says, and don't believe for a minute that your husband has to resolve issues of the past in order to resolve his marriage problems. HE DOES NOT. It is a good way to keep your H coming back for years, accomplishing nothing. As you can see, nothing has changed while your marriage crumbles more and more every day.

Here is what Dr Harley says and he is a pretty smart fella:

Mel,

She said he is Depressed & on meds.



My comments did not address resolving childhood problems. Here's exactly what I said:




Agreed. Addicts need to be treated cia AA / Alanon as you pointed out - not IC.

My main point was that we can't have a healthy marriage when our spouse is addicted to alcohol / drugs or if they are psychologically unhealthy.

Dr H himself said that in the newsletters.

This one pertains to Drug / Alcohol Addiction:

This one pertains to Depression:


In this second one Dr H seems to be saying meds is the way; however, many people do use therapy and meds conjointly to treat certain psychological probs. Also, most Psych MD's will not prescribe meds without sessions to assess / evaluate the patient.

Chris, again, NOWHERE does he tell anyone to go to an IC and yap about their childhoods. He advises AGAINST THAT. He tells depressed people to get on anti-depressants, THAT IS ALL. The problem here is this woman's H is going to counseling to "resolve childhood trauma" before he will work on the marriage. That is a waste of time.

One does not need to go to a counselor to resolve childhood issues in order to fix their marriage. That is what this man is doing. AT THE EXPENSE OF HIS MARRIAGE. Like Dr Harley has said, when they bring up your childhood, you know you will there for YEARS without ever finding a solution.. It is just a good way to keep clients coming back for years.

This seems odd to me.

CBT sessions should be focused on Stimulus --> Thought --> Emotion.. not on "overcoming the trauma." Also, CBT is a short process. He's been CBTing for SIX months?

DAS, what's going on here?

Mel,

Can you show me where I am saying that going to an IC to talk about childhood issues is useful?

Thanks.

Well, I am not a medical doctor and even if I were, I wouldn't try to diagnose someone I had never met, over an anonymous forum. I still maintain that if a psychiatrist thinks it is worth prescribing ADs and continuing to monitor the patient, then ITA with the psychiatrist's judgment. (As if he/she needs my blessing!)


Yep, that's enough for me to think it is unethical to encourage that person to drop their sessions with the best person to monitor their treatment.

But YMMV. I am not a medical doctor. You can follow your medical doctor's advice... or someone else's.

I have bipolar disorder, and IC is part of the deal from time to time. Right before my hospitalization, MB people here encouraged IC. However, if I waited until I was no longer bipolar to address my M, well......

You see, I will always be vulnerable to depression. I may always be vulnerable to mania. If I wait until I feel good or completely stable to take care of my M, I might as well just pack my bags. The DAY I got home from the hospital, H and I talked about the M. Was I still fragile? Yes. Was I still depressed? Yes. But life isn't a to do list. I don't become "perfect" and put all other relationships on hold. I have to do some things simultaneously.

Where is the line between getting the help I need first and using it as a reason to avoid the hard stuff in my M? I don't know. But I don't want to cross it, and if that means I have to suck it up and be a wife even when I am struggling, then that's what it means.

Chris, do you realize that is what this thread is about? "Re: childhood trauma, IC and MB"
That is what this man is doing.

And I am not just speaking up on behalf of the OP. Also expressing caution toward whomever else may be reading this, starting new meds... *please* follow your doctor's advice.

Yet you contradict DR HARLEY's credentialed, qualified advice, Jayne.

Mel,

I sure do.

Can you show me where I am saying that going to an IC to talk about childhood issues is useful?

Thanks.

I agree 100%

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Excellent points Jayne.

Everyone remember: This is a peer support environment & clearly some people here are against IC while some are in favor of it.

Your mileage may vary in these discussions & debates, but - no matter what - please listen to your doc!

I think some folks are not aware of why this thread was begun and have lost all perspective. The OP's husband is going to an IC to delve into his "childhood traumas" before he works on his marriage.


THAT is the problem.

No one ever said that a depressed person shouldn't get on anti-depressants or they should STOP anti-depressants, that is not the issue. [Dr Harley does recommend this too] The issue is the DISTRACTION of delving into one's childhood to solve ADULT PROBLEMS. That is a DISTRACTION, just as Dr Harley states it is.

Just to get folks refocused, here is what Dr Harley says about that:

It's been 6 months of weekly IC (and weekly MC but that is helping).

Things have not been great in that time period. OW worked with H, and once exposed she made harrassment complaints and legal complaints of harrassment. She's been a nightmare. Big investigation at work that went on for 3 months, then they were both on leave, now they are both fired. Meanwhile, the court stuff is crazy also - having to defend her accusations which go on and on - get crazier and crazier. This week, I am filing a RO against her in fact.

IC has been supporting him to get through these issues, talk about childhood issues that he never dealt with also. The IC believes that he has a sort of arrested development back to when the abuse started when he was 8-10 years old. She is trying to help him grow up, basically. She has had action plans for issues in his life that center around getting along with people, completing projects (the last 2 chapters of his doctorate, which have been unfinished for 4 years).

Please refrain from personal attacks and help the poster with Marriage Builders concepts. That is what we are here for, folks! There is no need for personal attacks.

Thanks, MBSurvivor

D&S, please consider counseling with someone who is qualified to save marriages. Dr Harley states this kind of counseling is a needless distraction. [delving into childhood] His daughter, Dr Jennifer Chalmers, is one of the MB coaches and she is also a psychologist. If your H has any issues like that, she can address them in a way that benefits your marriage. Just because someone told you he needs to examine his childhood does not mean you need to blindly accept that.

Ok Melody, I've been following this thread and have to ask and in doing so, reveal to the board my personal past childhood trauma.

I was sexually abused between the ages of 5 and 6, by an 18 year-old uncle and on top of that my father was a severe alcoholic.

With that comes for me anyway the baggage of anxiety, a pessimistic attitude and the rest I feel I can't even begin to articulate.

I can go on meds (which I not on at the moment) and work on my marriage using the MB's concept, but how will that help me with the anxiety, the pessimistic attitude and other underlying issues?

Do I just mask the problems with drugs, because dealing with my past will be a distraction?

My marriage isn't headed for a divorce, and there's no affair, but the anxiety, the pessimistic person and other crap I can't identify or understand isn't helping matters any...

I will tell you one way those problems won't be resolved, and that is by "delving into your past." Examining your childhood does not solve pessimism or anxiety. The solution to your problems is in the present, not the past. Delving into the past does nothing for the present except keep you depressed, angry and triggered. I wasted years in counseling doing that very thing and it availed absolutely nothing.

What did work was focusing on changing my current behavior. By exchanging my pessimistic attitude with a positive one; learning appropriate ways to handle my anxiety. One thing I have learned is that one does not have to go into the past to resolve adult problems. It is a needless distraction from the solution.

MRAnderson, I am bumping this post because it might be helpful.

In a book I am reading called The Celestine Prophecy, it talks about being able to recognize and become aware of our behavioral patterns that resulted from our childhood influences. Basically it means we are all subject to our parents (dis)functions and they influence us daily. Until we learn to recognize how those dramas conditioned us, we cannot step back from them to recognize our own learned patterns of disfunction.

For instance, if a woman is freaking out everytime her spouse goes out on Thursday to play pool at a bar it would be helpful to him and her to know that maybe she is subconciously reacting to her (hypothetical) childhood experience of her father going out to the bar and coming home liquored up and beating that young girl time after time. Thus IC = value. But once uncovered, check it off the list and lets move to behaviors.

So to the point the IC helps uncover why you behave like you do, its valuable. No need to continue to dwell on it but it is necessary for an individual to see the WHY in order to move beyond their ingrained behaviors and evolve to something better by stepping outside of those patterns.

For instance my pattern I learned from my Dad was withdrawal anytime anything got serious or real strong emotions came out. He hid from emotions. I learned this pattern only during my marriage crisis. It would have been better to learn it before the crisis with an IC session or two. Luckily I grew beyond it or my marriage would have been lost. No amount of MBers would have helped my wife or me see that. It wasn't an obvious love buster.

I now recognize my first tendency to withdraw from emotions (my wifes anger for example) and turn it around to engage her, acknowledge her anger, help her prevent it from becoming a love buster (its just a signal something is wrong THANK YOU ML and LA) and find ways to affirm her and solve the situation (my apology if needed).

My wife is learning her pattern which she learned from her mom of not being able to express physical affection to me when around others. Not groping, just hand holding. Now fortunately we don't need an IC because we have all you smart people helping us learn but for others I can see that uncovering these childhood patterns with an IC is indeed very useful. I think even AA would say you have to face and own your behavior before you can change it. Knowing why we learned to act like we act IMHO seems to help tremendously. Again not for months and months in IC but if we know why, we can much more easily recognize it and change it.

Just a couple of things:

I realized that my parents' excessively high standards and inability to encourage without a big "But" at the contributed to the fear that I will never be good enough

I realize that being ridiculed for my unattractiveness as a young child undermined my confidence as a young adult/adult

I realize that suffering sexual abuse at puberty awkened some feelings in me I was in no way prepared to deal with.

I realized all these things before I ever entered a therapist's office. Because they make sense. Now, there were benifits to discussing those things briefly, but there was one thing that changed EVERYTHING with regards to parents, childhood trauma and bullying, sexual abuse....

For me, that thing was forgiveness. Now, many well-trained people out there argue AGAINST forgiving an abuser. But that is what freed me. Not talking ad nauseum, not exploring how my fellow first graders made me FEEL, not talking to a pillow and pretending it was my mom to get my feelings out.

Now some people (close friends even) have suffered things I could not dream. But the bottom line is, EVERY family is somewhat dysfunctional and EVERY person had a "bad" childhood, depending on how you look at it. I refuse to let that teenage boy, those cruel children, that trusted family friend, and even my own well-meaning mother determine how I live and what kind of M I have.

One thing that I have learned is that one does not have to examine their childhood or understand the source of their behavior problems in order to solve problems. In fact, looking into the past is a distraction, because there is really no way to know WHY a person acts the way they do. Just think, if we had to know the WHY of every behavior, we would probably never change because that is an impossible mission.

For example, when I feel anxiety, I don't have to examine my childhood to resolve it, I can do that without knowing the cause. If the only way to resolve adult problems was to find their source in one's childhood, I think most people would stay pretty sick because that is unrealistic goal.

Additionally, I was not raised in an affectionate home and was never exposed to such behavior. But I did not have to examine my childhood to change that; all I had to do was adopt affectionate behavior.

I do know that bringing the trauma of the past into the present is not productive and does nothing to make the present great.

AA does not advocate delving into one's childhood at all. They don't want to hear your crap. What they focus on is changing PRESENT behavior, just as does Dr Harley.

here, here!! Well said. Agree with every word.

Another thing I learned the hard way that was that continually BLAMING my mommy for my poor lot in life kept me crippled and kept me distracted from my OWN bad behavior. My childhood was horrendous, just horrendous; I was born to 2 ALCOHOLIC 16 year old hippies who didn't know right from wrong and who abused me horribly. They were terrible parents, but you know what? The buck stops right here when I turn 18. I am fully responsible for my adult behavior and fully in control of it. I don't need to yap about my mommy in order to change. I just have to CHANGE IT.

The greatest relief came when I stopped blaming them and forgave them. They were dumb kids. If I was going to crow and complain about them accepting me, I had to learn to accept THEM, warts and all.

As an adult, my relevant "PAST" started when I was 18. I am responsible for everything thereafter and that is all that matters. Bringing childhood trauma into the present is to just punish me twice. To that, I say NO THANKS.

This is a great post Luri.

How did you get to the point of forgiveness?

To be honest, I think the big factor for me was my faith and my understanding that after all Jesus had suffered to offer me forgiveness, I could not refuse to offer it to others. But some was harder than others. The mean kids? They were kids, just like me. Kids don't really grasp the effects of their actions. The teenage boy? Sort of the same thing. He was most likely drunk, and who knows what kind of a life he might have had to endure. The family friend was tough. I got good and mad about that. But I also saw him for what he was after he had to step down from his position over an A with his secretary - he was a pathetic, unhappy, rudderless man who really deserved more pity than bitterness. Mom? Well, that's a work in progress. Her love for me overall generally balances out the crap...but strong boundaries help that.

I don't see forgiveness as an event, or even a feeling. I see it as a choice of thought. And sometimes that choice has to be made over and over before it "sticks." It's something that frees ME.

Ugh, Now I sound like a therapist!

You sound like a GOOD therapist! The feelings led to different behaviors, which led to different feelings!

ML...

Sorry for the personal attack. It was unwarranted and uncalled for. I just cracked. No excuse.

Thanks....I can be nice with the right meds - tee hee hee:)

Thank you, Cantfigureitout, apology accepted.

She is also funny as hale!

So what's next for you DAS?

Thanks for asking!

I want to go to a MB weekend but the next one is impossible - I need to have surgery, it has been rescheduled once, and my MIL is flying across the country to help take care of me and already has her tickets. We need to get it over with because we are paying for COBRA insurance, my WH lost his job over the A but is applying for more and might have one soon meaning he can't take sick days immediately to take care of me. It's the same week.

My WH is reading on MB online, I have ordered books and they are on their way, and is going to come onto this board.

We need to make a better plan for our new, improved marriage. I don't want to wait out IC, I want to take the bull by the horns and do it now!!

How's that for a plan?

Good plan! Can you put that money towards some Marriage Building coaching? I agree there is no reason to wait.

Melody,

Are you suggesting the money which would have gone to COBRA premiums be used for Marriagebuilders? OR Are you suggesting that her H, who is currently being treated for depression and is ONE MEDS stop using IC and use the money spent on that towards Marriagebuilders?

I am not saying this IC is any good but her H is on MEDS for Depression. He needs to be under a doctor's care either way. Plus medical insurers (COBRA included) will not pay for Marriagebuilders coaching. Maybe you're sating something else. I HOPE you're saying something else.

Just what are you suggesting? Please clarify.

Chris, I believe it was pretty clear. I will repost so you can read again!


One does not need to get "individual counseling" to take MEDS; she can put that money to better use and get marriage coaching..

Whats up with pasting the Harley's mission statement in your signature? Was someone confused about this?

.

IC can be extremely important in understanding a lot of things.

Frankly, the understanding of some of my childhood issues greatly improved some of my adult relationships.

It is the understanding of some of those issues that lead to a great deal of my personal healing.

****edit****

cinderella, it is ridiculous to assert that quoting Dr Harley's professional opinion is a "diagnosis" or a "HIPPA violation." ****edit****

****edit****

cinderella, is Dr Harley being "unprofessional" and making a "HIPPA violation" when he says this:

Folk - Let's keep this constructive for the original poster. Please remember the sign on the door - MARRIAGE BUILDERS

That's true.

When I first posted here, many moons ago, my primary goal was to save/improve my M. I was one meesed up puppy - wayward, bipolar, manic....it was not pretty.

But almost 16 years ago now I made a vow before God, family, and friends, and since then I have given birth to two beautiful children who need their mother and father. So what I needed then, and what I need now, is the tools to start TODAY being the wife God called me to be for the marriage I committed to God to be part of and the children I committed to God to raise.

I am a member of Nami, and a bipolar support group, and a Christian forum. They all serve wonderful purposes in the world. But when I am here, it is because TODAY I want my M to be what it should be. TOMORROW, six weeks from now, when I am 50, is not soon enough for me. I am a school teacher, not a doctor, not a counselor, not a therapist, not a sign waver or flag holder or anything else. I am also a FWW who recovered from infidelity and is striving to put into practice marriage principles. I also know how to read. And I think God intended marriage to be loving and wonderful and passionate.

Does that get me a membership to the AMA? Nope. Does it mean I am capable of encouraging other people? Yup.

Mel,

I already gave you feedback saying that you wrote wasn't clear to me, so re-phrasing it to clarify may work better towards communicating your idea / ideas to me rather than re-posting it and expecting me to re-read the same UNclear message. To break it down Kindergarten style for you, what has transpired between us was this:
Hey, I didn't understand what you wrote. Can you explain what you meant?
Well, I'll re-post it so you can read it again!

IMO, that statement appears to me to be argumentative (and possibly condescending) rather than one designed to communicate.


And, Mel - you are incorrect with what you said here.


No one can (legitimately) receive a script for meds without seeing an MD and no one can (legitimately) receive a script for psychotropic meds without Psych sessions (for at least initial evaluation / baseline & monitoring...). That just how our healthcare system works.

Also, I think that mental health is a key ingredient for happy & healthy interpersonal relationships. Some people need assistance with mental health and it seems that disgustedandsad's H is one of those people according to what she has shared with us. Personally, I hope that her H continues to seek care even as they work on their Marriage. Perhaps the person treating him right now isn't right for him; however, he is on meds for depression and needs to be under a doctor's care. To suggest they redirect funds to Marriagebuilders INSTEAD of taking care of her H's mental health seems ghoulish to me.

To be clear - both working on the marriage & working on his mental health is the ideal; however, if it's an either-or type situation I would choose his mental health first. You have given good and great advice on many occasions Mel, but I hope they don't listen to you on this one.

Please keep in mind that I am a big supporter of Marriagebuilders, I believe it works & I have experienced real changes in my marriage because of it. Also my H & I purchased the Marriagebuilders program for ourselves. I just feel it's irresponsible (and scary) to suggest someone stop seeing an MD.


Mel, it's an excerpt from the text in the Welcome area above.

Why did I use it in my signature? I think a few people are confused about what this environment is meant to be and what it is. There are people here who need to be reminded that this is a PEER environment - some of these people are on the giving end of the "advice" and some are on the receiving end of the "advice."

Luri, I am glad you mentioned NAMI. Here's something from NAMI which may help us to clarify the finer points of this discussion as it currently stands.


DAS's current IC may not be solving his problems. Perhaps the approach isn't appropriate...None of us can really be sure; however, if he's on meds, the man needs care. If DAS & her H are not satisfied with his progress in IC, they can seek someone else.


DAS, Dr h also made statements like the one above which bothered you in newsletters about addiction and depression so please don't let that bother you. Your H should be seeing some progress esp after 6 months. If you're not seeing improvements with his condition, perhaps another MD can help him.

My hope for you is that you can start working on your marriage asap & that your H can experience mental health & wellness.

There is a huge difference between an evaluation for anti-d's from an MD and getting individual counseling for "childhood trauma," and THAT is what we are talking about here. [see title "childhood trauma, IC and MB"] People get anti-depressants every day after a simple evaluation. They don't go through months of counseling.

I just want to remind you that this IS Marriage Builders, Chris, not the format for your personal opinion when it conflicts with Dr Harleys. We need to stick to what Dr Harley says, and not substitute our own personal opinion. Dr Harley has stated in numerous places that delving into one's childhood is a NEEDLESS DISTRACTION that diverts one from working on the REAL PROBLEM. He is a psychologist, Chris, you ARE NOT.

Telling this woman to pursue this path is irresponsible and detrimental to her marriage; it goes AGAINST everything Dr Harley suggests. I wonder if you missed this part of the mission statement:

Just a refresher on DR. HARLEY'S professional opinion about this type of counseling - and that is what we are here for, after all. We ARE NOT professionals, only peers, which is why it is important to stick to HIS opinion and not substitute our own:


here

here

here

Mel,

You aren't a psychologist either are you? My question to you is: How do you know what my occupation / field of expertise is and how is it relevent here? All of us (SAHMs, SAHDs, bus drivers, painters, musicians, bankers, lawyers, construction workers, clerks, dental hygienists, astheticians, etc) in the MB forum are using our own individual interpretations of Marriagebuilders concepts & what Dr H has written in books and newsletters and we are discussing things and working through our issues here. Are you asking me to stop doing what is normally done in the forum ?

I saw what Dr H wrote in the Marriagebuilders newsletters about ineffective therapists keeping their patients trapped in an ongoing therapy do-loop...which is what you seem to be referring to in this discussion as well as the discussion where you discouraged me from seeking the help of an IC. The thing is - I also found several comments in the Marriagebuilders newsletters which supports my POV in this particular discussion. IMO, your suggestion conflicts with a concept which was clearly laid for me when I read what Dr H wrote in the newsletters pertaining to Addiction & Depression: Addiction and Depression must be treated before work on the marriage can begin. It also seems in poor form to advise someone to take money set aside for treatment of mental health issues and spend it on Marriagebuilders (assuming it's an either-or choice.)

With regard to DAS's H, I stand by my original opinion. believe that if he has a diagnosis of "Depression" and he is taking psychotropic medication, he should be under a physician's care.

As I said before my hope for DAS is that she & her H can beging working on their marriage asap and that her H experiences mental health & wellness.

My first version of this post was incomplete. I am reposting below.

Chris, you are correct, I am NOT a psychologist, I sell soft drinks. Which is why I continually REFER back to Dr Harleys quotes. I don't substitute my own personal opinion for Dr Harleys as you are here.

And I have pointed out to you over and over, and you continue to ignore it, that NOWHERE does Dr Harley advocate months of IC to delve into one's childhood. NOWHERE. You have produced articles where Dr H suggests getting treatment for addiction and depression, but NOWHERE does he ever advocate going to months of IC to delve into one's childhood. You can see, that he advocates AGAINST IT.

You do this woman a grave disservice by going against what Dr Harley has CLEARLY said is a waste of time. This woman's marriage is going into the toilet because her H is convinced that he has to go to months and years of "counseling" delving into his childhood before he can ever work on his marriage. That is an irrepsonsible path that will destroy this woman's marriage.

The solution is EXACTLY WHAT Dr Harley subscribes in the numerous quotes I have provided. THAT is what we need to help this woman with, rather than debating what Dr Harley has CLEARLY STATED.

It is outrageous that this woman is subjected to this needless debate about CLEAR direction from Dr Harley, rather than helping her find solutions. It is an abuse of this forum, in fact. I would refer you back to the moderator, Dufresne's words on this thread:

"Please remember the sign on the door - MARRIAGE BUILDERS"

If you are going to help newcomers here, Chris, you need to stick to Marriage Builders and leave the personal opinions at home. That is a disservice to newcomers who come here for help.

I didn't substitute my opinion for Dr. Harley's at all. I stated which parts were my opinion very clearly using phrases such as "I think"..."I believe"... and "IMO" and I also referred to what I read from Dr. Harley - separately and distinctly.




That is untrue...I have not ignored this. I referred to it in my last post and before that I NEVER said that spending months in therapy talking about one's childhood is useful or appropriate. I even asked you to point out where I said that and you couldn't. That's because I never said it.



I stated to her more than twice that she should be seeing results and if she isn't, a change may be in order. You suggested something which I, along with several people in the discussion, found to be scary and irresponsible.

To be clear, what I have been saying in this discussion is: I am not suggesting that DAS's H spend months in therapy digging up his childhood. I never suggested it and I don't think it's a good idea. I do think he needs assistance since DAS shared he has Depression and is on meds. I am 100% a supporter of Marriagebulders becasue I believe it works. I have experienced real changes in my marriage because of Marriagebuilders and my H and I have purchased the program for ourselves; however, I think it was awful to suggest a redirection of funds away from someone's mental health & into Marriagebuilders if it's an either-or choice. I hope that makes things a bit clearer for everyone.

I think you are misunderstanding MelodyLane's suggestion. She is not saying that he should not be under a physician's care. In fact, she specifically said "There is a huge difference between an evaluation for anti-d's from an MD and getting individual counseling for "childhood trauma," and THAT is what we are talking about here. [see title "childhood trauma, IC and MB"] People get anti-depressants every day after a simple evaluation. They don't go through months of counseling. " So her expectation is anti-depressants prescribed by a physician -- which would mean she completely expects him to be under a physician's care!

She is not saying to stop taking anti-depressants or to continue taking them without a physician's care. She is saying to stop spending money on individual counseling and suggesting that money be spent on Marriage Builders instead.

There is no suggestion here of a depressed person not being treated by a physician. I think what you are really reacting to is the difference of opinion over individual counseling. But don't allow that to get confused with the issue of treatment by a physician.

Since you aren't saying that months in individual counseling is useful or appropriate, and since MelodyLane isn't suggesting that the depressed husband forgo anti-depressants or a physician's care, what exactly is it that you are taking issue with?

Chris, lets be clear here. A change obviously is in order. He is spending his time in IC delving into his childhood. THAT is the change that needs to take place. There is nothing "scary" about that. That is EXACTLY WHAT Dr Harley says in his quotes, that spending time examining one's childhood is a WASTE OF TIME and a distraction. To advise her NOT to change is what is scary and IRRESPONSIBLE.

We need to stick to Dr Harley's words, here, Chris and help this woman follow HIS PLAN, not ours. This should not be up for debate.

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I am being clear and saying that I found your comment about the money to be inappropriate. I do disagree with your personal outlook on psychotherapy but that's besides the point.

This is exactly right, Markos; she has confused the issue at hand. The issue, as I have pointed out ENDLESS TIMES is right in the title of this thread, and really can't be missed: "childhood trauma, IC and MB"

Maybe now we can get back to the real issue.

Lets keep posts productive and get back on track. The bickering needs to stop. Help this poster learn Marriage Builders or please refrain from posting. This forum is to help posters learn and understand Marriage Builders.

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We're done!