I was recently part of a panel discussion at a writer's convention where the subject was "Flirting - Do's and Don'ts."

There were a fair number of people in the audience, including three high school girls.

The panel immediately started off with how harmless and fun flirting is. The other female on the panel, a cute younger married woman, mentioned how much she enjoys getting those zings of attention (she actually said that) from other men and considered it harmless fun - just something to get her through the day.

I wanted to ask her if her husband knew about her harmless fun zings of attention, but I didn't. (He was not there. I wonder why.)

At my turn, I said, "Please don't flirt with people who are married. It's massively disrespectful to that person's spouse."

Everybody's face fell and said "oh - well - but it's harmless - uh - uh - "

I said, "The difference between being friendly and being a flirt is that flirting is ALWAYS sexual."

(startled looks from the audience) "uh - what? huh?"

"Of course it's always sexual. When was the last time anybody here flirted with their parent? Or with their sister or their brother?"

(stunned looks as realization dawns)

At this point the cute young married female said, "I wouldn't have any problem with my husband flirting with other women! He's kind of shy and I think it would be cute! It would be good for him! I wouldn't mind at all!"

I put my head down on the table for a minute and tried not to have another meltdown on the spot. Then I said, "I used to think the same thing. I used to think it was cute when my husband flirted with other women and they flirted right back at him. I used to think I shouldn't let it bother me.

"I don't think that way anymore.

"The biggest problem is this: Getting those sexual zings of attention is exactly like a drug to many, many people, both male and female.

"As with any drug, you soon need bigger and bigger and bigger hits to get the same thrill.

"It isn't long before just getting a smile or a reaction out of the waitress or the co-worker isn't enough.

"To get the same zing, you have start spending more and more time with that cute co-worker.

"You have to start going to breaks with them.

"You have to start putting them in your car and driving them off-site for lunch.

"You have to start taking them with you on your business trips

"You have to start taking them to dinner

"And to shows

"And sightseeing

"And to bars

"And drinking with them

"And you have to walk back with them to their hotel because it would be rude if you didn't

"And you have to start lying about all this every single day to your spouse or your significant other so they won't find out and interfere with you getting your harmless fun zings

"And you get to find out what all that lying and unaccounted time does to your spouse's ability to trust you

"And you get to find out what happens to a marriage when you have destroyed your spouse's trust with lies."

The place was dead quiet. The three high-school girls were sitting on the edge of their chairs and their eyes were huge.

"Well, I really didn't mean to bring the panel down like this. I just want to point out that there is a MASSIVE difference between being friendly and courteous to someone and and being a flirt - and that if you don't understand the difference, you *will* destroy good relationships."

At this point the high school girls jumped up and said, "Yeah, we know what you mean! The guys at school are awful! They are all over us all the time! They DON'T know how to just be friendly or nice! They gotta flirt and push all the time and if we don't do it back they get mean and call us - uh, nasty names!"

I gave them one word: "Boundaries."

"Boundaries define the difference between flirting (sexual) and being friendly (normal)."

"Boundaries."

They all looked very happy and the mom of one of them found me later and thanked me for talking to the girls at the panel the way I had.

Just for the record, I worked as a waitress for a while in an airport coffee shop in San Antonio. I did not mind talking to men who were friendly and courteous, but most of them weren't.

They just wanted to flirt.

Remember, I was young and cute then, and 99% of the men I waited on (most of them wearing wedding rings) would flirt, and flirt, and push and dig for that zing of attention to be returned, and they would get very annoyed and refuse to tip if it wasn't returned.

One of them called me "rude" and "a b*tch" even though the service had been fine. The only problem was I had not returned his flirting.

I hated it. I felt like a wh*re. I wasn't there to serve coffee and food - I was there to provide strange men with zings of attention and flirtation and THAT'S what they were tipping me for.

My husband behaves the same way. How many times have I heard him say, "Oh, well, this one's getting negative tip points" - and it is ALWAYS because she refuses to flirt with him. I have always been sitting right there and seen this countless times.

It might dawn on a man someday that that waitress or check-out girl he's trying so desperately hard to get that "zing" from is almost certainly somebody's girlfriend or somebody's wife

It might dawn on him that MAYBE she's trying not to disrespect her own boyfriend or her own husband by flirting with YOU.

I can tell you, the vast majority of men behave with waitresses and with ANY OTHER WOMAN IN A SERVICE JOB exactly like my husband does.

They behave like it's part of that woman's job to flirt with them and provide them with zings of sexual attention no matter what she's really there for - and if she won't do that, she's a rude b*tch and it's negative tip points for her.

I have been subjected to this many, many, many times by married men and I ALWAYS hated it.

I was happy to be friendly and courteous to men who were also behaving in a friendly and courteous manner AND WHO TREATED ME WITH RESPECT, but I quickly started DESPISING the ones who insisted that I return their flirting - that I give them a nice little sexual zing of attention along with the rest of the service - or they'd refuse to pay.

To me, that's how you treat a wh*re. And I honestly don't think these men have the first clue of how to relate to a woman any other way.

Why is it that places like Hooters and casino bars and even the geisha in Japan are so bloody popular?

Because those women are PAID to flirt with men as part of the service. When men go in there, they can be guaranteed of having their flirting returned and getting those zings of sexual attention that some of these rude frigid b*tches working in restaurants and in other service jobs (like me) just won't provide.

All they have to do is pay for it.

The trouble is, there are plenty of women who WILL respond to flirting because they've learned that it will give them whatever they want

Like tips

Like money

Like attention

Like gifts

Like lunches

Like dinners

Like trips

Like Broadway shows

Like evenings in fancy sushi and sake bars

Like promotions

These women ARE wh*res in ever sense of the word. They care nothing about the husbands or fiances or boyfriends they might have at home - they are absolutely willing to trade flirting, sexual attention, sucking up and often a whole lot more to ANY man who is in a position to give them anything on the list above.

He can be a total stranger or he can be their boss - they do not care as long as they get what they want from that list.

And boy, do they ever get it.

But women like me, if we try to insist on being treated with courtesy and respect at all times, are

frigid
rude
a b*tch
nasty
controlling
need help
need medication
need to find somewhere else to live

And get ignored in favor of the wh*res.

I am happy to treat other men with friendliness, courtesy and respect.

I will NOT flirt with them because I an a married woman and it is NOT part of my job to provide strange men with zings of sexual attention.

So, somebody come in here and defend flirting among married people. Go ahead, make my day!
Mulan

*APPLAUDS*

Holy mackeral, Mulan. That was a very long rant!

I'm glad you spoke up to the younger ladies. It's good to hear other people talk about flirting vs friendliness.

I was bartender/waitress for many years and I hate flirting. Even as a young, single girl I couldn't bring myself to flirt. I like to talk, to be friendly and mostly to be treated with respect from customers.

I ignored the types of guys you are talking about, and still do. I ran into one of those jerks when GB and I were in Nashville not too long ago. And do you know that idiot flirt actually asked me if I had thongs on? I felt like kicking him in the shins, but all I did was turn around and completely ignore him.

That panel you were on sounds very interesting and like a lot of fun, btw.

Great rant Mulan.

My FWH is a very friendly person and woman usually flirt with him with me right there. So it is definitely a two way street kind of thing. There was one woman who's son was on my son's baseball team and i could not believe some of the things that she said to my H with me sitting right there.

stillcrazy,

How do you handle that? Do you just laugh it off? A lady was flirting really obviously with my husband and I actually took her arm and removed it from where she had laid it on his. Then she took a hike, but I was really getting angry, and am kind of ashamed I couldn't have handled it better.

I need your advise?

Mulan....you are my hero for today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think that cute young married woman on the panel must have been my ex... Definitely her outlook on flirting...

AGG

The one with the son on my son's ball team happened a couple of years ago and I did not handle it well I must admit.

I would get upset with my H because I felt like he should tell her that what she was saying was inappropriate. I told him that if i said it she would just think I was a jealous wife (which i was of course). I mean she would say things that were really bad. My husband at the time said that she was just being friendly because sometimes her husband was there too. My daughter actually finally said something to her about the fact that something she said was inappropriate and she finally quit after that.

Not too long ago he was talking about it to someone and he said how bad she flirted with him and i said I thought she was just being friendly and he said no it was way more than friendly.

Everyone should follow your lead and start awaking the general populi's inability to recognize how insidious and destrcutive cheating is for everyone involved.

Gdman we need a powerful movie showing the devesation of cheating not romancing the power of destiny and fate of two adulterous lvoers.

Please do not ever be ashamed of being called "jealous" when some stupid b**** is pawing and drooling over your husband.

I do not understand why calling someone "jealous" in this situation is supposed to be a taunt and an insult.

If a burglar walks into your house and starts looking through your belongings, are you "jealous" and "insecure" if you throw him out??

Jealousy is nature's way of telling you that something you value very much is in danger of being lost and you had better step up and protect it.

If that's something to be ashamed of, then please call me "jealous" every day.

If it happens again, just look her right in the eye and say, "You are being extremely rude and disrespectful by touching and flirting with my husband. I expect it to stop right now."

If she protests that she's not flirting, just say, "Yes, you were flirting with him, and I am very offended by your behaviour."

If she keeps arguing or keeps trying to flirt, then it's time for your husband to step up.

If he won't, then just say, "You know, maybe you're right. Maybe he does deserve you and not me after all." Then get your purse and take a taxi home.

I have every intention of doing exactly this if I'm ever in such a situation again, and I kick myself every day for not stepping up and dealing with such rudeness and disrespect a long, long time ago.
Mulan

Mulan,

That was awesome. I could visualize the audience sitting their dumbfounded and then some of them, beginning to "get it".

I would say, just what that mom said to you would make the whole day worth your effort.

AWESOME!!!

Plus if you do this you don't get mad and in a fight with your husband, because it's not really his fault. Mine is so friendly but not at all a flirt.

I was so ticked off with the girl that was flirting with GB, I just couldn't stop myself.

I guess I handled it right. Stilcrazy, when I did that GB wasn't in the least bit angry. I think he thought I was pretty cool for standing up to her. It was upsetting to me, though.

Well when i said that she was being inappropriate my H just said she was being friendly so i am not sure that he would have felt the same way if i said something. Like I said it was not until way later that he admitted that she was flirting with him.

I mean she would be wearing her short shorts and bend over right in front of him and she would say things like "I am going to have to go home and wring out my underwear from sweating so bad". One game she came up behind him and poured cold water down his back and asked him if that felt better. The thing that she said where my 15 year old daughter told her that was enough was a mention of a hooker.

OMG it was all I could do not to just start punching this woman right there on the ball field.

I like your DD!

It's too bad you couldn't have grabbed a long stick when she bent over and shoved it...you know where. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Maybe when she said that about her underwear you could have said "yes, there is an unGodly smell coming from somewhere."

My mom told me one time there was a woman like that and she got her alone and told her "if you don't stop what you are trying to pull, I am going to knock you down these stairs". And that was all it took to stop her.

Wow, I think this statement is a great way of explaining it. Bravo.

I have been reading this post and I am finding it very interesting. I have seen flirting all the time and sometimes you just don't know what to do when you are the one being "flirted" Sometimes I walk away, sometimes I say something. There was one time that sticks in my mind that was over the top. DH, myself, my sister and BIL and a few other people were leaving a football game. I was walking behind our croud with my sister. This guy walking the other way cops a feel of my a$$ when he goes by. He must have thought it would be so quick I would think it was an accident but a cupped hand on your cheek is no accident. I went after him. I asked him what he thought he was doing, would he like it if someone did that to his sister etc. He was speachless and looked like he wanted to crawl in a hole and die. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
I don't think he will be trying that any time soon! My sister couldn't believe I did that (I am a bit shy) and my husband was po'd at the guy but proud of me for standing up to the guy.

After hearing how some men behave with waitresses and tipping I am glad DH is all about the service when it comes to tips!

"Flirting" is getting an unmet need MET. And if married, that need meeting belongs to your spouse and no one else.

Great post, Mulan. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Nothing wrong with righteous jealousy. Even the Bible says that God is a jealous God!

“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God” (Exodus 20:4-5).

Nice rant Mulan and I totally agree.

Mulan,
So I was trying to find the packers/cowboys game tonight and I went on the internet. DH said maybe they are changing over to the nfl channel and he was right. This is a channel the cable stations have to pay extra for and pass on to us. So I am reading an article on line about it (the changeover starts tonight) and this is the end of the article I found ....


And that's where we are. It sucks if you can't get the game, and I'm sorry for that ... but it won't kill you to embrace the sports bar experience for one night. Go out, have some chicken wings, get hammered, flirt with a waitress who finds you repulsive, tip her more than she deserves, and make things up about how you were a long snapper for the Seahawks in the early 80s. It'll be fun.


OMG!!!!!!!!!!! There it is in print! No wonder men think it's ok! Here is the link if allowed. http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/11/2...-itself-useful/