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#2535679 08/15/11 04:38 PM
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Howdy, folks! So here I am two years later, and wanted to drop in to give an update. I'm a big believer that focusing on fundamentals won't steer you wrong when it comes to MarriageBuilding. What are the fundamentals?

  • The Policy of Joint Agreement. Never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse.
  • The Policy of Undivided Attention. Give your spouse your undivided attention a minimum of fifteen hours each week,
    using the time to meet the emotional needs of affection, conversation, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment
  • The Policy of Radical Honesty. Reveal to your spouse as much information about yourself as you know; your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes, dislikes, personal history, daily activities, and plans for the future.


So how are we doing? We're meeting our fifteen hours a week, by and large. When we don't make it, we start mentioning how we feel to one another and find a way to fix it. My work schedule the past month and a half has been extremely hectic, so we took a two-day "mini vacation" together to compensate. This is a pretty common strategy for us when we start getting behind: jump-start meeting the hours again by scheduling time away.

POJA is how we do almost everything now. And what a huge difference it makes! Our default question if we want to do something is "how would you feel if I...?". And if our spouse does something that bothers us, we state the hurt in terms like "I'd love if it..." There are very few exceptions to the rule, and by and large they are only areas where we did not realize our spouse would be offended, and Radical Honesty allows us to address them in short order. We've had a lot of conflicts -- daily, sometimes hourly in fact! -- but haven't had a fight since we met with Jennifer Harley Chalmers in January of 2010.

The only long-standing exception to the POJA is her church involvement. We negotiate about activities, but not the attendance itself. Dr. Harley advised me personally to leave resolving this issue alone for a few more years and ensure we're continuing to do everything else right before attempting to tackle the issue together.

The church issue, in my opinion, remains a wedge preventing some intimacy in our relationship. It was the crack the other man used to get my wife to open up to him. It remains foremost in my mind as the most likely vector for any man to come close to her again. She strictly polices her boundaries with other men and is also aware of her weakness there; she never intends to allow any man other than me to be a close friend again.

But as of a few months ago, she still feels she lacks a feeling of "spiritual intimacy" with me. When she discusses spiritual things, I'll nod encouragingly and listen attentively, but she knows I typically don't agree with what she's saying, so doesn't share a lot. Part of it, I realize, is the whole "enemy of good conversation" thing: when she begins to discuss spiritual topics, I stop being such an active participant and become more of a listener. If I say what I'm thinking at that point, she sees my disagreement as a disrespectful judgment about her beliefs. Kind of a no-win situation at present.

Radical Honesty? We do try to share all our feelings, particularly if something bothers us. The vast majority of our conversations are positive, but Radical Honesty allows us to deal with problem areas before they fester. We also follow this approach with our kids, and the children have learned to warn their friends that we are Radically Honest in our household, and to expect bluntness and potentially embarrassing conversations smile This change has also helped our two teenagers to keep the lines of communication with us open, and we feel we can have extremely frank discussions with them.

Over the past two years, I've noticed very interesting trends. One of them is that although my wife says Domestic Support is her #1 need, her behavior says otherwise. Based on how she acts when needs are met, I'd say that her most important needs are Intimate Conversation, Financial Support, Family Commitment, and Affection. In particular, going shopping together and spending time together when prior to the affair we'd have spent time separately seems to result in the most Love Bank deposits all around; when I'm doing a lot of work on my second or third jobs and money is not tight, she seems much happier.

That said, Affection seems to encompass a lot more than just physical affection. It's helping out around the house when she's overburdened. It's doing things for her when she doesn't have time to do them by herself. It's buying things for her and taking her places, giving her things to look forward to, taking care of minor issues around the home, etc. Although she maintains it's the "Domestic Support" she wants, just doing chores around the house does not seem to increase my Love Bank balance with her in any visible way. It's the action of showing her affection in several different ways *including* doing things around instead of her having to do them that results in her acting as if she's in a state of Intimacy with me.

Think more Five Love Languages in terms of 'Acts of Service' than the way a typical male thinks of Affection and you'll get my drift.


I've watched my needs change over the course of the past two years, as well. Immediately after her affair, Honesty & Openness topped my list. Getting her to open up about her thoughts was hugely important to me, and I felt a greater love for her when she did so. That need has diminished somewhat as she's consistently been open & honest about herself and I've verified the information from time to time. Now simple Radical Honesty is typically enough.

Sexual Fulfillment has also moved down the list. I'm not twenty-five anymore (38 now!), and my interest has waned considerably. I don't think I need to see a doctor about my lack of interest yet, but once or twice a week is about all I need to feel good in that area.

Conversely, my needs for Recreational Companionship and Domestic Support have increased considerably I think it's time to re-evaluate our needs using Dr. Harley's "Imagine that if you don't list it in these five needs, your spouse will never, ever meet that need again in any way" guideline to filling out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire. I think doing it that way will help us get a handle on what our actual most important needs are now.

Anyway, so that's where we are. Are we better than we were before the affair? Absolutely. Are we better than we've ever been? In terms of Love Busters, and meeting each others emotional needs, absolutely. In terms of spiritual connectedness, we were better back when I was Mormon, and I'm really not certain how -- or, if I'm to follow Dr. Harley's advice, if at all -- to address that. It's a fairly deep incompatibility, yet we find other ways to remain in love despite it and do our best to ignore it.

Overall, Dr. Harley's method works. Both of us agree it saved our marriage. It affected my wife so profoundly she plans to set up a marriage coaching practice based on the Harley principles. I still listen to Dr. Harley's broadcasts nearly every day, and doing so helps to keep me grounded in my priorities.


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Originally Posted By: Doormat_No_More
I've watched my needs change over the course of the past two years, as well. Immediately after her affair, Honesty & Openness topped my list. Getting her to open up about her thoughts was hugely important to me, and I felt a greater love for her when she did so. That need has diminished somewhat as she's consistently been open & honest about herself and I've verified the information from time to time. Now simple Radical Honesty is typically enough.


As such; sometimes the most important needs are the ones not being fully met. At least a year behind you, and I'll say that O&H is still #1.

Quote:
Sexual Fulfillment has also moved down the list. I'm not twenty-five anymore (38 now!), and my interest has waned considerably. I don't think I need to see a doctor about my lack of interest yet, but once or twice a week is about all I need to feel good in that area.


Dr. W. F. Harley prediction in action. Quite simply, when you really put the "F" in "SF," men will typically be "OK" with once or twice a week. On this part, I can tell you that I am not too different (and 6 years younger), though I would say that twice a week (for now) is pushing FWW's limit. I could probably go a week or two. Don't know, not allowed to go that far!

Quote:
Conversely, my needs for Recreational Companionship and Domestic Support have increased considerably I think it's time to re-evaluate our needs using Dr. Harley's "Imagine that if you don't list it in these five needs, your spouse will never, ever meet that need again in any way" guideline to filling out the Emotional Needs Questionnaire. I think doing it that way will help us get a handle on what our actual most important needs are now.


RC inventory sheet?

I take it that you are more of a mechanical and/or scientific thinker?

Well, if you refer to the article "Together When You Are the Happiest" here, you will see mentioned by Dr. Harley that the reason behind spending your RC time exclusively with your spouse is because part of the excitement of that activity is attributed to the person whom you share it with. Refer to the website "You Are Not So Smart" and the article on "Misattribution of Arousal" for further explanation and confirmation.

What you might do, is to put together a "Bucket List" of exciting activities for you and your W to learn together. Look around, and see if there are some inexpensive weekly dance lessons. Learning something new together, while also being an RC activity, will also help you grow together, as you partially attribute that to your wife.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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DNM,

That was a great update! smile





Recovery began 10/07;

Meeting my wife's EN's is my "thank you" that refuses to be silenced.
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DoNoMo, thank you. You are one of my favorite posters, and I am glad that things are going so well for the two of you, and I feel privileged to read your update. smile


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2535749 08/15/11 08:37 PM
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Regarding Domestic Support and Affection, if you read Dr. Harley's online Q&A about Affection carefully, you will see that he lists "doing the dishes" as affection. So the boundaries are a little vague. smile

Affection is anything that demonstrates your care and commitment to your spouse. (In a way that is meaningful for them.)


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 17 years, who is a beautiful angel.
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Originally Posted By: Doormat_No_More


Overall, Dr. Harley's method works. Both of us agree it saved our marriage. It affected my wife so profoundly she plans to set up a marriage coaching practice based on the Harley principles. I still listen to Dr. Harley's broadcasts nearly every day, and doing so helps to keep me grounded in my priorities.


dance2

Wonderful update.

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Thanks for the update, DNM! smile


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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DNM,

Thank you so much for taking time for your update...as someone whose M is in the early recovery stage, your story gives me a glimmer of hope...continued success!

Thank you.

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So happy to hear a success story and the process it took........
It is a wonderful feeling to be connected to someone you feel safe with......
Continue the path you are on............
Wishing you more success in the future...........
jessi


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Haven't been on this site forever, but I'm glad that when I did I got an update from you! Glad things are settled down and calm.

I agree that the spiritual thing is huge. I'm more along the lines of your way of thinking..... but thinking about your situation and wondering -

What would be so bad about sacrificing your atheism/agnosticism and returning to church with her and the kids?

I was just thinking that since it's so hugely important to her, and your goal is to be her husband for life, and she is your #1 priority, then couldn't you bite the bullet intellectually and feign a spiritual reinterest/recovery?

If not, isn't that placing your intellectual superiority ahead of your marriage?

Just musing.....honestly, I don't know what I'd do in your situation on that particular issue - it's a tough one.


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Now in a committed relationship with a woman of character who loves me so much better and deeper than I ever dreamed possible. I had no idea what I was missing out on and am so grateful God gave me a free "second chance" at love and life.
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Arpeggi's post struck a chord with me, and for what it's worth, I thought I'd chime in.

I know that spiritual intimacy can be tough when you and your spouse are on two different trajectories. In my case, my husband was planning to become a pastor when we got together. Some years later, he finished his M.Div., but had become an agnostic/atheist in the process! My faith had deepened, and the gulf between us around spiritual issues was huge.

More recently, I went back to school with his blessing (and partly at his suggestion) and am now a pastor! He attends church with me whenever he can, and he takes care of many details there. He still considers himself to be agnostic/atheist, and he does not take communion (his decision).

So, in some ways, maybe, I can shed a little insight on what's going on in your wife's heart and mind. My husband's "loss of faith" was devastating to me. I already knew things were problematic on that front (when I tried to share my experiences in prayer, he'd become defensive, for example)... and I knew that his "loss of faith" was a move in the right direction, toward greater honesty and integrity... but I was still devastated. It was as if I had a sense in addition to the 5 physical senses which saw this incredible, rich, and challenging "world" - and he not only lacked the sense, but was in denial that the "world" I saw existed, if that makes sense. It's a huge barrier.

His willingness to support our family's church-going has been important to me. It means a lot.

Ideally (though not always in practice), being part of a worshiping community is about presence - not belief. Belief ebbs and flows and evolves and may disappear for a season in even the most devout, but the community itself is about connection - connection with one another and (for those who believe)especially with God and also with the larger world.

I hope you and your wife can find ways to be "present" and supportive of one another in your "faith" journeys (for lack of a better word!).

I do disagree with Arpeggi that agnosticism/atheism is a position of "intellectual superiority" - and if that is an assumption you carry, it is in itself a real barrier. It may look like that, but for your wife, it may be that there are other ways of knowing - other data - for her to integrate into her calculations.

Being that your wife's "spirituality" is part of the scenario which resulted in infidelity, I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't be better for you both if you both were to seek out a somewhat different faith community where you both would be willing to be "present" together, despite your differences in belief. Just a thought...

Kudos to her for trying to speak about "spiritual things" with you for the sake of intimacy in your marriage. It's not easy.

I realize none of this may be applicable, and I have great respect for the integrity with which you are seeking to live out your marriage and your position on faith. Best wishes!


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Interesting thoughts, @little_t. Read your post aloud to my wife. Three responses:

1. She understands how you feel,
2. She does not believe I would be enthusiastic about joining any faith community,
3. She would not be enthusiastic about any other faith community.

It's important to understand that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints regards itself as the only "true and living church upon the face of the earth". All other churches save this one are regarded as false, and dead. To abandon the religion -- particularly to join another -- is apostasy, with deep theological and practical/familial repercussions. Even my way, of simply not going any more and telling anyone who asks that I'm a nonbeliever, is generally preferable to joining another Christian church.

In fact, the LDS scriptures clearly state the opinion of God himself on the topic (Joseph Smith History, 1:18, "Pearl of Great Price"). Joseph's account of his visit with the Father and the Son is recorded as below:

"""
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time.
"""

Last edited by Doormat_No_More; 09/20/11 09:32 PM.

Doormat_No_More
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I have a caveat to my immediate prior post. Apologists will commonly indicate that the LDS church is very tolerant of and cooperative with other churches. In fact, they'll often point to the Articles of Faith, verse 11, to bolster this argument:

"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."

The Articles of Faith were written by Joseph Smith, Jr. to explain his church's beliefs in an era of widespread antipathy toward the church. Mormons get along with non-Mormon neighbors; it is a founding creed!

However, in many cases the same tolerance is not extended to ex-members.

I guess what I'm saying is, if my family continued to observe some form of Christian practice, it would still be a tremendous positive step to get away from the suspension of disbelief, active exclusion of non-member family and friends from weddings, and objectionable group-think necessary to devout Mormon practice and temple worship.

Makes me think that perhaps I ought to start attending Mass. If embracing another religion -- if not in belief, than in community & practice -- might help them consider alternatives, perhaps it should be something I explore myself first.

Lead by example, eh?


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It sounds like a tough place for you and your wife to be - and I like your problem-solving spirit. For you, the "other options" sound almost like a change of religion rather than a change of worship community and tradition. I'm sure your wife (and other family members, it sounds like) would be uneasy about it all.

I suspect that like every religion, there's a spectrum to be found within Mormonism. What you describe sounds like elements of what can be found among many Christian denominations (and I assume other religions as well). The grass is not always greener on the other side (much like marriage!), though breaking with the negative aspects that you've identified would be easier if you start somewhere new - ideally somewhere that doesn't claim exclusivity and celebrates inquiry.

It may sound strange, but I asked God a question much like the one Joseph Smith asked. For me, part of the answer was "Jesus Christ" - that was the one aspect of my childhood faith that I couldn't let go of. The other part of the answer was to stay in the very same denomination in which I had been raised, for better or worse. Not because it was the "right" one for everyone but simply because it was where God was calling me to be. What are your wife's basics that she cannot let go of (this may be something to be sought through much prayer)? Do you have any basics of this sort (maybe not)?

But like I said, this is tough in your situation! May you both be blessed with all the creativity, love, persistence, and kind communication that POJA helps us to learn!


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Decided to provide a quick update. This weekend we're heading to a resort near a remote mountain lake. We'll be going snowmobiling together. One snowmobile, two people, as long as we're within weight limits. Gabriel Iglesias has six categories of fat: "Big", "Healthy", "Hefty", "Fluffy", "DAYUM!", and "Aww, Hell Naw!". We're both somewhere around Healthy or Hefty, so I hope we can find a snowmobile that can carry 400 pounds between the two of us.

Anyway, then Saturday morning we're driving to the eastern shore of the lake to watch the total lunar eclipse, and enjoying some quiet time together in a remote location with all the technology turned off or left at home. The closest grocery store is thirty miles away, and the lake is almost snowbound this time of year.

What a wonderful way to celebrate seventeen years together!

As always, appreciate the support we get from everyone.

Although every so often it comes to a head, by and large our "happy medium" of faith observance currently is that I simply don't observe anything. After reading more of Dr. Harley's materials on resolving religious conflict, involving myself in some other faith just ain't worth it. It would likely become a source of conflict, and I'm just not that interested in religion -- any religion -- to feel like taking that step any time soon. So taking a queue from Dr. Harley's writings, I'm the "weak faith" partner, while she's the "strong faith" partner. And I'm basically OK with that, except when it takes time away from one another. My wife's enthusiastic about me staying home & I'm enthusiastic about me not going to her church, so that half of the POJA is pretty well nailed down smile

Let's see, let me think, any other conflicts I could use help brainstorming ideas on...

By and large, we've resolved most of them. Biggest outstanding ones -- besides the whole religious question, which may never be resolved -- are:

* Both of us dislike the house we're in, her more than me. See thread history for details, long complicated story, but ultimately we'd rather be somewhere else. But this house is upside-down like so many. We're investigating a few short sale options and have never missed a single payment, but finances are often extremely tight and the extra $1000 of a big house payment often is the difference between living comfortably and worrying. Now would be a good time to inherit a hundred grand from a dead relative. Too bad I'm the richest relative I know!

* Related to that, we often have small conflicts about home improvements that are fairly quickly resolved. Wife wants them to improve our quality of life, but doesn't want to spend much money improving a house she wants to short-sell. Always requires some give-and-take to improve what we can for cheap, and the look & feel of the house is starting to reflect some of those budget-oriented choices. On the plus side, I'm getting better at fixing things myself, when I've never considered myself much of a home repairman. No more really big projects laying around waiting for someone to do them anymore, though, just small stuff.

* Junk. So much junk around our house! And neither of us like to throw things away, so it's really hard de-junking. I have to kind of hold my nose and throw stuff away anyway, but either one of us always runs the risk of offending the other if we throw away the wrong thing. We're making progress, but if we don't put in at least 4-8 hours a month de-junking, we end up collecting more than we get rid of...

But on the plus side, we get plenty of UA time, we've found some fabulous restaurants together recently, we are going to the gym together more regularly, lots of good things. I'm really not worried about a repeat performance of the events that started three years ago, but both of us keep up much better boundaries than we had before!


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Great update, DoNoMo. I like to hear how you guys are doing, and I'm glad you're doing well. smile You are one of my favorite Marriage Builders success stories.

Speaking of junk, you've probably heard from Dr. Harley the suggestion of renting a storage facility. I strongly recommend it. Out of sight, out of mind! Even if you are both enthusiastic about keeping the junk, you may like this idea. Prisca is enthusiastic about me keeping my junk as long as it's in storage.

Currently our kitchen is about to have some major repairs and we have almost everything cleared out of there. I was looking at it last night thinking how great it looks, and I started to think maybe I'd like to put almost everything I own in storage, and live in a near-empty house with few possessions. smile


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Sounds like things are really going well for you two, DoNoMo!


Originally Posted By: Doormat_No_More
We're investigating a few short sale options and have never missed a single payment,


Re the short sale...
Atty #1 said to me: Your credit will be "dinged".
Realtor who is selling my house now said: Your credit will be hurt but let's take things one step at a time.

I have pretty good credit and make a decent salary plus the added income of CS, I thought that I would have no problems taking out another mortgage.

Oh, no, that isn't the case. Recently found out if you go the short sale route where you don't make up the difference at closing, you will NOT be able to take out another mortgage for at least 3 years. Not even as a cosigner. It doesn't matter how good your credit was previously or how much $$ you make or how much you will be able to put down. Just wanted to warn you in case nobody else has yet.


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This thread is short enough that I'm OK appending rather than adding a new one. Quick update:

UA time no longer an issue. We meet 15 hours easily; we book 1-3 lunch dates a week, have "date night" every Saturday for 3-5 hours, go to the store together, do stuff around the house together, go to the gym together 3-5 times a week, taking long walks together, yard saling together, etc. The only time it's suffered is when I've had to go out of town for business. Luckily, that is a very rare (once per year or so) experience, and both of us are very honest about missing our time with our spouse! So we make up for it.

Those of you who've followed my story are aware that a difference of faith lay at the heart of my wife's EA and most of our conflicts. So that's pretty central to what we need to make up for, as her Independent Behavior of ongoing church attendance definitely causes some resentment on my side. Dr. Harley even mentions in some of his articles that differences of faith are some of the most intractable issues couples face; typically, one or both partners must be the "weak faith" partner in order for the marriage to succeed. If both are strong & passionate about their respective faiths, the conflict tends to run too deep and they divorce.

In our case, I'm a former Mormon, now nonbeliever, and intentionally embrace the "weak faith" role. I'm a passionate atheist -- of the "there is no evidence for the supernatural" persuasion, not the dogmatic "there is no such thing as the supernatural" persuasion -- but for the good of my marriage I choose not to be an activist or evangelist atheist. She's a very devout & active Latter-Day Saint.

Sundays are less of an issue. I took up cycling, and routinely take a 3-6 hour bike ride on Sunday mornings as part of my fitness goals. Getting out of the house during church preparations -- so that I'm not getting recruited to do things I'm not entirely enthusiastic about, like helping kids get ready for church meetings I'm not a fan of -- really does help a great deal. I come back from the long ride refreshed, ready to cook a meal for the family for dinner, and with a positive outlook. Getting back into fitness routines has been hugely helpful. Spending much of my fitness time with my wife -- even though we have different routines! -- is hugely helpful. There's that endorphin rush from exercise, and we associate that with one another even though (against all logic) we were just in the same BUILDING together, not actually working out together most times.

And being able to work from home 2-3 days a week really helps us keep up with UA time, too, in a flexible way.

Meeting ENs? By and large, the time together does a good job, as we stay really keyed in to our needs. I found that going "turbo" on chores didn't really do that much for how my wife acted or felt. Helping her with her chores seems to really be the ticket. So I will frequently see what she's doing and hop in to help out. Works well to meet that Domestic Support/Affection/Conversation trifecta.

Love Busters? About the closest I can come to is that on rare occasions we'll lapse into the habit of telling our partner that s/he is wrong about something. We talked about it 3 months ago when a week had gone past where we'd made disagreements of fact about something (conflict) and rather than immediately being honest about how that disagreement made us feel, allowed it to queue up for a while. Haven't had a relapse in some time. And it was always about stupid stuff, like the distance from our house to someone else's, how much time it takes to go somewhere, that kind of thing. Rather than saying "that's wrong, it takes 3 hours to get there", I usually respond with a question like, "How certain are you of that?" or a statement like, "I'm not certain about that", while she usually will say something like "I don't agree." Helps us with an "easy out" method of dealing with conflicts, because it takes the focus from "you're wrong" to "I don't think we see this issue the same way".

This one was quite difficult for me. For a long time, I was of a very stereotypically Male type of position on these things, like "a question of fact is not a difference of opinion". I've come to realize, however, that if you treat a misstatement of fact just like you would negotiations about a difference of opinion in your marriage, you make Love Bank deposits instead of withdrawals! So I threw another long-cherished point of "personal consistency" away in pursuit of an excellent marriage. If you bumped into me at work, you'd find me my old adversarial self: quick to put facts together, insisting on clarity in speech to avoid misunderstandings, etc. But I've learned that marriage is a very special case. When the goal is to reinforce love, clarity of fact is largely irrelevant. Clarity of feeling is HUGELY relevant, so even a difference over facts should be handled in a manner that reinforces love.

Basically, I'm still of the opinion the program works if you work it. UA time is the cornerstone. Your spouse must be more important to you than any earthly obligation, and they need to know it. My wife and I are more in love every day, and the improvement in our relationship today compared to even a year after we were married and still in the "honeymoon phase" is STAGGERING. Meeting ENs is natural when you're in love!


Doormat_No_More
(Formerly Barnboy)
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what a fantastic update! good for you, DNM. thanks for letting others know the programme works! hurray


fBW 49
xWH 55
DD 22
DDay 6/07
D 8/15
Letting Go

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