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Oh it WOULD be optimistic of me to think I can overhaul Aphelion's views after all this time. He clearly has his own reasons for believing ENs should be met on demand and it is rewarding for him to hang on to those reasons.

It's more I remember being a newcomer here, and when taking people's advice I would look at their registration date/status/number of posts. People looking at Aphelion's registration date might think his counsel to sacrifice is standard MB advice.

I feel a lot better now we have Dr H's words on this page.


What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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I just wanted to make sure you knew that he is not asking these questions out of a sincere effort to learn, because that is not what he is here for.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I just wanted to make sure you knew that he is not asking these questions out of a sincere effort to learn, because that is not what he is here for.

So why is he here then?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I love the example of Mr and Mrs. Pep. A hug seems to be the perfect thing to "say".

My H gets upset by adultery in the media and culture and he is certainly remorseful. If he weren't, I am sure I would have much more continuing resentment. In the past, I would be much more upset than H, be physically ill when I saw or heard an adultery reference.

The radio show had a segment talking about women's guilt and responsibility in an affair. Dr. Harley talked about a researcher who interviewed 600 women who had been in affairs. When asked how many of them took responsibility, the researcher's answer was none. All of them thought their affair was their husband's fault. I think this attitude could contribute to a BH's resentment.

In "Surviving an Affair", Sue never apologizes to Jon. Yet, Dr. Harley talks about them being happily married today. Maybe, it is a gender thing, but I don't understand how there can be just compensation without remorse.

I think Pep hit on something when she talked about feeling resentful and depressed versus using resentment as a weapon to purposefully hurt a spouse.



AM




Last edited by armymama; 07/20/12 06:52 AM.

BW - 70
WH - 65
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
H broke contact 11/1/09
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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I just wanted to make sure you knew that he is not asking these questions out of a sincere effort to learn, because that is not what he is here for.

So why is he here then?

Good question. think


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I just wanted to make sure you knew that he is not asking these questions out of a sincere effort to learn, because that is not what he is here for.

So why is he here then?

Good question. think
I wonder if we'll get an answer?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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I've been following this thread with interest, and felt compelled to comment on a couple things, although as a FWW I don't know that I'm qualified to speak on BS resentment per se...at this point in our marriage, overcoming indifference is a far greater issue than overcoming resentment.

Aph, you said:
Quote
� The fact that the adultery is abuse is irrelevant to the issue because it is in the past. We need to deal with the present. �

This is a reasonable analogy? A man�s arm and leg have been chopped off. The wound is healed. He�s not lying bleeding on the floor. So, it�s all in the past. Time to forget the past and move on. He is still missing an arm and a leg, though. Is MB saying the equivalent that he should act as if he isn�t?

As you've given me a similar analogy, this resonated with me.

A man who has has his arm and leg brutally chopped off - i.e., a betrayed spouse - I think that's an apt analogy to what we do as adulterers to our spouses. Let's add to that by saying that many times, there was no warning. The man was simply walking down the street, thinking all was fine in his world, when he was jumped by the criminal who popped out of an alley or from around a blind corner.

It is what that criminal - the offender - does at that point that I see as critical. Do we leave the man to lie bleeding from his wounds on the sidewalk? Some do. Some adulterers walk away from their crimes, without a backward glance. Do we recoil in shock at what we've done and run for the hills, leaving our victim to fend for himself? Yep. Some do that too. Do we stop and try to help our victim, but do it all wrong, oftentimes inflicting further damage through our incompetence? Yep. Some do that too.

Me, I was in that last category. I stopped my initial offense - I put down my machete, in other words...but while I tried to bandage the wounds I gave broken, I didn't clean the wounds out first. I left lies in there to fester and cause infection. I was frustrated because he wasn't healing as fast as I wanted him to, and I took that out on him. I was ready for him to get up and start running again with one arm and one leg, and when he couldn't run, I kicked him with trickle truth while he was down.

I gave my victim a lot to resent.

What about the offender who feels remorse? What does the offender do with that remorse? More often than not, that remorse doesn't happen instantaneously. Oh, we might feel bad initially, when confronted with the extent of the damage we've done, but the key with remorse is making amends.

Sometimes our victim doesn't want our help (amends). Sometimes they would rather heal as best they can on their own. They may make it to a hospital (here to MB) and learn how to best clean and bind their wounds, to regain mobility, replacing their limbs with artificial ones.

Sometimes the victim accepts the help of the remorseful offender, if they believe the remorse is genuine.

In any of the above cases, they will always have scars, whether they choose to recover with a remorseful offender or whether they choose to recover on their own, or whether they are left on their own by the offender who abandoned them to their fate. The artificial limbs don't work the same as the old.

In some cases they are stiff and unnatural. They cause the limping of resentment. They settle for the limitations, and refuse any attempts at physical therapy. In some cases, victims recieve limbs that are amazing technological marvels, similar to those that athletes in the paralympics may utilize. They learn to operate them skillfully and in recovered marriages, they learn to rely on their spouse when they need assistance with an obstacle - to trust that their spouse will be there to help them. The limbs don't work the same...they'll never be the original arm and leg, but the victim adapts, survives, and goes on to live a fulfilling life.

Some victims don't want replacement limbs at all. They may "need" two arms and two legs, but decide they can function well enough without them. They will simply stop doing some things they believe they are no longer capable of doing. Some will resent the offender for taking those things away from them, and some simply decide that they don't care...that perhaps they never really needed those things to begin with. Or at least they convince themselves that they no longer need those things.

The past has the capability to scar all of us. I have scars that have nothing to do with my infidelity, nothing to do with my marriage. As Pep brilliantly pointed out, it is all about choice. We have the ability to choose what we do in response to those scars.

Here's another thing I want to comment on:
Originally Posted by WhoAreWE
As a FWW, I have a hard time swallowing this statement:

"After all, an affair is hatched with full knowledge of how much pain it will inflict on an unsuspecting spouse after it's discovered. It reflects a wanton disregard for the feelings of someone that was supposed to have been cherished and protected for life."

If I had full knowledge of how much pain it would inflict on my dear husband I would have had the sense of reality needed to stop myself. I certainly agree with the second sentence. How do I accept the first sentence about myself so my husband can heal and have less resentment?


I don't have a hard time swallowing that statement at all. As GO pointed out recently, affairs rarely begin because you bump into someone attractive in line at the grocery store and say, "Excuse me! Oh, hello there, my, you're good-looking. Whaddya say we hop on over to this motel next door and have sex?" Infidelity - at least in my sitch - was akin to walking down a set of stairs. Respoding to POSOM's "friend request" puke on FB - one step down. Sending text messages, emails back and forth - another step down. Allowing myself to enjoy the attention and flattery - another step down. Get it? At each step along the way, I made a conscious choice to proceed. At any point, I could have made the choice to stop and run back upstairs to the safety and sanctity of my marriage. No one can rationally believe they didn't know how much it would hurt their spouse. If they did, they'd be shouting the news of their burgeoning adulterous relationship from rooftops instead of skulking around secretly. If we truly didn't think infidelity would harm our spouse, we wouldn't do it in secrecy.

Perhaps that is correlated with the comparative rarity of remorseful FWW's to FWH's...I don't know. I do know that in no universe can I truthfully say that my adultery was broken's fault. Sure, we had issues in our M. Sure, both of us had unment EN's and LB'ed each other. Both of us were at fault for the problems in our M. But *I* was the one who deliberately chose to take each distinct step down that staircase. broken did not push me down the stairs. broken did not say, "Hey, why don't you go down those stairs and see what's at the bottom?" I've never understood why that gender disparity in remorse for adultery exists, because I simply can't understand NOT feeling remorseful for what I did.

On a personal note...as I said, I gave broken a lot to resent. I didn't give him a "false recovery" in the technical sense, as my affair ended upon his discovering and confronting me with it, but I gave him a fraudulent recovery based on lies. I try to put myself in his shoes, and even though there is no way I can possibly comprehend the totality of the damage I did to him, I cannot blame him for resenting me, being indifferent to me, even hating me. I can still see the tears of joy in his eyes at our wedding. I can hear him speak his vows (he practically shouted them out, because as he told me later, he wanted everyone in the church to hear how much he loved me).

I do feel like broken has chosen to live with one arm and one leg. And I inflicted the damage. I can't abandon him to live with the consequences of that.

For anyone who managed to read this far, I apologize, I didn't mean for this to turn into a novel, and I hope I made some sense with my rambling! smile


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"Snow and adolescence are the only problems that disappear if you ignore them long enough." ~ Earl Wilson
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Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
I've been following this thread with interest

smile

WPG, dear WPG, I started this thread with you specifically in mind, so you have more "right" to comment than anyone else. At least in my mind. smile

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awww, Pep! hug


FWW

"Snow and adolescence are the only problems that disappear if you ignore them long enough." ~ Earl Wilson
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Originally Posted by WPG
Sometimes the victim accepts the help of the remorseful offender, if they believe the remorse is genuine.

Usually not right away.
In the immediate aftermath, the only "help" that can be unquestionably 100% genuine is physical sort of tasks. i.e.: Making dinner, filling the car with gas, etc.

Emotional support from their WS is going to be perceived as (possibly/probably) disingenuous for quite awhile.

The quality of another person's remorse is a very difficult thing to gauge. Especially for a newly wounded BS who has a sudden distrust for his/her own perceptions. The BS questions what is real and what is not. Not just things about their beloved WS, but everything in their world. The BS fresh from the grenade has no sense of trusting anything they used to think was genuine.

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Originally Posted by Pepperband
In the immediate aftermath, the only "help" that can be unquestionably 100% genuine is physical sort of tasks. i.e.: Making dinner, filling the car with gas, etc.

It's excellent advice to offer to the new WS trying to help their BS catch his/her breath. Perform a multitude of real-life-helpful-tasks .... a TON of them.
Take over the grocery shopping/cooking/cleaning/laundry/child care, etc.

These things are measurable offerings of help. The BS can "see" the effort. Whereas all the apologies in the world will fall upon skeptical ears and stone cold eyes.

"I'm sorry"
"I'll make it up to you"
"You can count on me"

all yada yada yada

For the wayward not gaining traction with their betrayed spouse .... do measurable physical tasks for your spouse. Not asking for praise or even recognition .... just do these things quietly and with a glad heart.

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WPG,

Your post is brilliant, and made me remember an analogy my W said early in recovery:

"Our marriage is like a vase. You may have done behaviors that put cracks in it, but I picked it up and smashed it on the floor."

Now it's a matter of putting it back together....if we choose to together, with the person who shattered it, knowing the whole time that wile we may be able to superglue the pieces (MB) together, it will never be the same...


Pep,

My God....you absolutely nailed how I was feeling as a BS, but could never find the right words.

Thank you.

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Resentment for me at least is directly correlated to letting go of the past and feeling safe in the M, which is difficult. Memories never die even when just compensation and commitment to rebuild with MB has been established.

Safety: Knowing that your spouse will never again inflict pain on you. Knowing that your WS is never going to hurt you again. Getting to the point where some level of trust has been established where you feel safe to let your emotional guard down.

Our FR is making feeling safe very difficult. Some have said, waiting for another bomb to drop. This is so true.

Very difficult to completely let go of resentment even under the best of circumstances. Once the WS has shown you what they are capable of (A), letting that guard down emotionally is..well. Tough!

No BS ever wants to be hurt again.







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Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
Safety: Knowing that your spouse will never again inflict pain on you. Knowing that your WS is never going to hurt you again. Getting to the point where some level of trust has been established where you feel safe to let your emotional guard down.

For me ..... Safety = trusting myself to be able to recognize trouble and respond accordingly. I let my emotional guard down about 12 years ago, but I did not abandon my common sense or my powers of observation.

My dear sweet husband has hurt me during our years of recovery. As I have hurt him. By love-busting. Not with adultery.


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Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
Safety: Knowing that your spouse will never again inflict pain on you. Knowing that your WS is never going to hurt you again. Getting to the point where some level of trust has been established where you feel safe to let your emotional guard down.

For me ..... Safety = trusting myself to be able to recognize trouble and respond accordingly. I let my emotional guard down about 12 years ago, but I did not abandon my common sense or my powers of observation.

My dear sweet husband has hurt me during our years of recovery. As I have hurt him. By love-busting. Not with adultery.


At what point were you able to let your emotional guard down? What made this possible?

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Pep thank you for starting this thread, I have been reading and re-reading it, trying to get me thoughts clear about my own personal thoughts and I am having trouble, but just reading others have helped.

WPG � thank you for your comments � I appreciate your thoughts and think you provide valuable insight.

What are thoughts on the other side of resentment, when the WH/WW is resentful (angry) with the BS, for past failures in the M? (I know its blame shifting) but has anyone ever dealt with this and how?


Me 44- yes ugggh
WH 47
together 26 years M 19
serial cheater big time
DD1 2.24.11
NC letter sent 3/7/11
NC letter to OW2 april
final truths 5/8-- all of them poly confirmed 5/18
working the plan

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Originally Posted by 20YearHistory
At what point were you able to let your emotional guard down? What made this possible?

Firstly- we suffered no FR. That is critical, IMO.
Secondly- Mr Pep stopped his EA/PA on the day of discovery and went to the OWH in person to confess & apologize (with me by his side).
Thirdly- Mr Pep immediately stopped drinking and started going to AA (still goes, 16.5 years later)

These circumstances made it possible for me to even consider recovery. I had less to resent than many on this forum. Of this, I am fully aware & grateful.

So, you cannot really "compare" recovery timelines with mine.

I will answer your question like this:

Imagine your resentment is a mountain. The size of your mountain is bigger than mine was. Yes? With me so far?

How do you make that mountain go away? It's a damn mountain, after all !
You make it "disappear" from your reality by walking away. It gets smaller with every step, but it might not seem like it is any smaller for quite awhile, because it is such a large mountain.

Eventually, you will notice, when you look behind you, the mountain appears smaller as it lowers on the horizon.

One day, you won't be able to see it.
You know it is there, but instead of choosing to walk towards it to see it again, you keep walking away.

I hope this visual helps.

Your time line will depend on how big your mountain is, and how much you walk in the opposite direction.

Of course, if your spouse piles more resentments on the mountain, it grows.

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Originally Posted by chickadee1
What are thoughts on the other side of resentment, when the WH/WW is resentful (angry) with the BS, for past failures in the M? (I know its blame shifting) but has anyone ever dealt with this and how?

Fix past personal failures. Constantly evaluate & update your own side of the marriage equation.
Both spouses.
Resentment will give way to the filling of love bank deposits and the elimination of love-busters.

It really is that "simple". Simple is not always easy.
Old bad habits die hard. At lease some of mine did. smile (some sneak back in, now & then & I have to whip myself with a wet noodle)

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Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
Here's another thing I want to comment on:
Originally Posted by WhoAreWE
As a FWW, I have a hard time swallowing this statement:

"After all, an affair is hatched with full knowledge of how much pain it will inflict on an unsuspecting spouse after it's discovered. It reflects a wanton disregard for the feelings of someone that was supposed to have been cherished and protected for life."


No one can rationally believe they didn't know how much it would hurt their spouse. If they did, they'd be shouting the news of their burgeoning adulterous relationship from rooftops instead of skulking around secretly. If we truly didn't think infidelity would harm our spouse, we wouldn't do it in secrecy.

.... I do know that in no universe can I truthfully say that my adultery was broken's fault.

....I can still see the tears of joy in his eyes at our wedding. I can hear him speak his vows (he practically shouted them out, because as he told me later, he wanted everyone in the church to hear how much he loved me).


wulffpack_girl,

During the affair would you see the tears of joy in his eyes on your wedding? Did you imagine how much it would crush him on d-day? I know our affairs were nobody's fault but our own. But did you really enter the affair and participate in the affair "with full knowledge of how much pain it will inflict". Could you ever have imagined the pain your husband has experienced and taken another step down the stairs of the affair? There is no way I could have imagined the pain I saw on d-day.


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DD-7, DS-11, DD-15
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Pep,

The mountain analogy is perfect.

Re. the "full knowledge of how much pain it will incflict", I believe the WS is so selfish and so self-centered that BS feelings are not considered at all. As soon as the WS starts to keep secrets, the WS KNOWS he/she is doing something harmful to their spouse.

AM


BW - 70
WH - 65
M - 35 years
D-day - 17 Apr 08
H broke contact 11/1/09
Back in love after the worst thing that every happened to us.
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