Coping with infidelity part 4 *link* OVERCOMING RESENTMENT

My favorite part:



What do you think?

Personally, I love the "Listen Buster" beginning of this conversation.

Gods, I�ms goings to regrets this. But you asked.

�What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple.�

Agree, it is a type of abuse. But is it more or less abuse than the original adultery? Is abuse relative? Of course it is. All things are relative. (Relatively speaking.)

So, the BH still uses the adultery 10 years later to force an occasional argument. Maybe the adulterous wife should not argue in the first place. Maybe it is not all that often he brings it up. The original letter sounds to me like the WW still wishes it would all just go away: H, I demand you pretend it never happened. She definitely sounds like that kind of caught WW to me.

There are a dozen posters here on MB that would say to this BH if he posed this same story from his perspective that the BH is still not getting his ENs met. They would be all over this WW about how she is obviously still not giving the BH something he needs to recover.

And of course there are posters here who would demand this WW issue the same ultimatum recommended by Dr H (and it is indeed an ultimatum, which elsewhere he says never to do � oh well) and then D.

My, MB is a big tent, isn�t it.

�There is no excuse for the way her husband keeps bringing up her moment of weakness she experienced years ago. He is disrespectful and abusive.�

Moment of weakness? Really? A moment of weakness???

Ok, well then, we will have to ignore this other quote from DR H (in the same article, too): �After all, an affair is hatched with full knowledge of how much pain it will inflict on an unsuspecting spouse after it's discovered. It reflects a wanton disregard for the feelings of someone that was supposed to have been cherished and protected for life.�

A bigger question: Is adultery impossible for some people to get over? MB says to the BS simultaneously it can always be gotten over and go ahead and D if you aren�t going to get over it.

But, it is never made clear how much time the BS has to make this decision. Again, some posters say never D in a rush, take your time, decide what you really want, wait and see, don�t do anything you might possibly regret later. And after a few years have passed and the BS is still not over it the general consensus is either 1) it�s their own damn fault or 2) the WS is not on board with pure unadulterated MB and is not giving the BS what they need to recover completely.

My own unofficial research tells me that it�s the former if the BS is a BH and it�s the latter if the BS is a BW. There is definite gender bias in this regard.

Anyway, if adultery is just a �moment of weakness� then gosh, none of us need to be here at all. Adultery is a bagatelle, and anyone upset by it is a fool, an abuser and a loser.

�I suggest that she look him right in the eye and say to him, "Listen Buster, do you love me? Do you want me to love you? Do you want to spend the rest of your life with me? If the answers to any of those questions is 'yes' you sure are going about it the wrong way. You are not doing things that I admire, you're doing things that I find disgusting!"�

It would have been nice for the adulteress to have given this same speech to herself at the moment of adultery. Opportunity lost forever.

Perhaps it is just as appropriate he look her in the eye and say listen sweetie, I know beyond the shadow of a doubt you did not love me and never did and your adultery is absolute proof of it. After all, what adulterer loves their spouse? What part of adultery is loving one�s spouse? What part of adultery is caring for one�s family at all? What part of adultery and the desire to pretend it didn�t happen 10 years ago is loving?

Oh wait, it�s just A Moment�s Weakness. I forgot for a second.

�What if he says, "Fine, then lets just get a divorce and end it all."

To that I would say, "It's up to you. I married you for life, but if you want a divorce, it's your call. If you want to be in a love relationship with me, however, you're going to have to treat me much better than you have been treating me. You must never again bring up my affair, and if you are upset with me, you will have to treat me with respect until we can solve the problem. If you are upset with our sexual relationship, I want us to discuss it as adults and solve it with mutual respect. I refuse to be treated like this, especially by the man I love."�

OK, here we go with the I married you for life speech from an adulterer. Sheesh, I got one too. That speech is just more proof to any BH she is still a liar and a cheat. Applies in spades to the adulteress in the original letter. I am amazed Dr H would appeal to this time worn standard adulteress fog babble.

There is actual evidence in the adulteress�s own handwriting (or typing as the case may be) supporting this. Read carefully her self-justification for her adultery. Ten freaking years later she still blames outside forces for her � wanton disregard for the feelings of someone that was supposed to have been cherished and protected for life.� No wonder this abused BH is not over her adultery!


The main MB point left out of this entire letter is the adulteress is still not meeting his ENs, SF apparently in particular. According to MB that is grounds for D right there. The BH should have been advised to get a D right then and there and to make sure the adulteress gets absolutely nothing in the settlement, including no custody of any children.


But you asked!

Thank you.
I'm pleased you still take the time to read any of my posts.

Random.

Since my recovery thread is about resentment, I shall chime in here.

I remember reading this article a long time ago, and thinking to myself that it was a little hard on the BS. There isn't a lot of explanation as to what type of recovery work has been done, what type of just compensation has been made. I can understand how, if an A is swept under the rug and no recovery work is made, or if no just compensation is made, you never get beyond it and it continues to resurface.

In my sitch, I did brow beat for awhile. I did this not because I wanted to hurt my WH, but because I wanted him to 'get it' and understand the pain and devastation he had caused. Adultry unfortunately is all around us, we hear about it every day on talk shows, in papers...we are almost desensitized to what it actually MEANS. Until, it strikes our life. Then we know exactly what it means. A loss of great proportion, a devastation to the very ground you stand on. I felt that my WH thought of it as painful, yes, but in a desensitized 'no big deal' kindof way. I could not rest until I made sure he understood this, because if he thought it 'no big deal' then would he do it again?

I really think for me, bringing my very (how shall I say this) egocentrical husband, who thought himself above the law so to speak, who felt he was OWED more in life than the next guy, who felt that he was OWED these indescretions because he was great and deserved more than me, bringing him down to his knees was the only way to bring him back up again, as a humble and remorseful FWS. I suspect this is against many MB principles, but in my case it worked. He does claim now that had I just discussed the A, then never brought it up again, and not continued to express to him the pain it has caused, he would never have been able to make this transformation.

That's just my experience.

That being said, I do have a friend who's H continues to bring up past indescretions, and I use that term loosely. I mean things that happened 20 yrs ago when she was 16 and they were in HS, like she 'went to see a male friend in the hospital.' She is not wayward in ANY sense of the word and hasn't been, he on the other hand is IMO. So I think he uses these past elements in his favor to manipulate conversations, and even to take the spotlight off of his own behavior. In this case it is very abusive. Perhaps in my case it was too, IDK.

Aphelion,

You know that Dr. Harley openly confesses that he is harder on husbands than on wives, right? And that there are reasons for that?

Yes, there is "gender bias," because men and women are different. I think Dr. Harley has gotten clearer about that in recent years, just judging by comparing some of his older writings to some of his more recent comments.

It's good that he's researching, continuing to learn, and continuing to share the results.

I can tell you for a fact that Dr. H is much harder on me than on my wife, and also tell you for a fact that it is worth it. I have much, much more capacity to be the "pump primer" when we have empty love banks than she does, and I'm grateful for all my coaches who have helped me to do more than I thought was possible so that I can have a better marriage!

Very good observation.


10 years after the A stopped?
Naw........


OK
Thanks for sharing.

We all continue to learn, thankfully.

I've learned that I get to choose what sort of person/wife I am today.
I can choose to be loving and "forgetful" when it is kind to be so.
I can choose to be happily married.
In fact, I can choose not to feel resentment on a day-to-day basis.
I can also choose to leave/change any situation that does not allow me to be fulfilled, happy, or open to grace of God.

Recently I've been reading many Corrie Ten Boom quotes. Amazingly spiritual woman.

It's a beautiful thing this recovery from a very long illness. I've gained so much perspective about myself and my powers of attitude.

Not 10 years, no. About a year and a half. I would still probably be brow beating if I didn't think he 'got it' or had transformed his attitude. Actually, about the time of the transformation I was at the point where I just wanted to go, so I guess ten years is as much a punishment to the BS as it is to the WS, or more.

It is too soon for me to comment, I think, on this. I think I have done VERY well on avoiding any love busters and bringing the A. I hope that I will not using it as a weapon with my H 10 years from now

Incidentally, Aphelion, I can think of THREE former male adulters who benefited from this principle of Dr. Harley's, just in the last year on this site. It does go both ways, to some extent, although I'm not sure Dr. H recommends a husband ever take the "Listen, Buster" approach.

What I have noticed is that resentment occurs when we get somewhat lazy about scheduling and executing our UA time properly. Then we might lose this intimacy which actually takes care of fond memories and leaves no room for bad ones. Not enough UA time somehow brings back those bad memories, starts to focus on "what you did to me", you feel uncared for and that is not easy to overcome. The key is proper UA time.

That way, forgot to add, resentment itself can be a real burden and punishment for a BS, really.

Agreed. The letter/article is too vague and also I am always leery if the source is the F(?) WS...is he/she really being objective? There's not enough info to tell what the story is. However, if the BH simply can't live with the A (whatever his reasons are) then he should divorce. There are consequences to staying and to leaving...pick your poison. Same goes for a BW.

I was flame on/flame off for the first year. My last flameout was while we were on a trip to a little resort in the next state over just past the time that OM had moved out of town.

After that, I simply made a promise to myself that I would never again let resentful thoughts drag me into ignition again.

I just push those negative thoughts back... but I have recently questioned it.

2 weeks ago, my best friend told me he is in end-stage renal failure and is beginning dialysis. NGB was more effected by it than I was. I felt... nothing.

I don't know. I'm rambling. It just feels like to contain things I have turned off my capacity to hurt... it feels weird.

At what point does the PORA come into play?

There are times I get overwhelmed by the entire situation (6 mo�s into R) and my mood can shift at the drop of a dime. Depression, sadness, resentment and anger seem to be right at the surface ready to explode at any time. Keeping them at bay is a challenge at times.

To clairfy, just compensation has been made. She is making great effort to meet my EN and to make me feel safe. Fully incorporated MB principles into our lives.

I am not a good poker player. If I am happy you know it, if I am sad you know it. FWW picks up on this and says �hey are you okay, what is going on?�.

Should we just respond, �hey I am just having a moment, I will be okay�. Or using PORA should we share that �yes, I am in pain right now as a wave of emotions just swept over me reflecting on the entire situation. The reality of your betrayal is very painful at this moment�

Once again I am reminded at how important UA time is to this issue.

H and I have been working hard on logistical things the last week. We had been working so hard to meet our UA time we blew everything else off for awhile, until things started to pile up to the point where they HAD to get done. Such as booking hotel rooms for an upcoming vacation, projects around the house, etc.

In an effort to commit to getting those things off our plate we instead blew off UA time. Last night, guess what? I started thinking about the A right in the middle of some great SF. (Come on I'm not giving everything up for logistics!) That hasn't happened for a long time. It quite ruined the moment for me. Guess I just felt disconnected due to the lack of UA time and that gave the A and its resentment counterpart the opportunity to sneak up on me.

UA time/need meeting is essential at warding off resentment. When you are happy and connected it is MUCH more difficult to be unhappy and resentful at the same time.

You know, HHH, I can relate to this. Yesterday I literally had to pull into a parking lot because a wave of grief hit me and I started bawling over something I hadn't let myself feel: something I should have grieved over long ago... It was weird. At that moment I realized how much I have bottled up, just to keep myself from letting negatives take control.

It's good that we don't LB our spouses due to hurt and resentment, but it's important to get that stuff out. It's people that bottle everything up that end up hurting their own health, ya know?

Personally, I never flamed at my FWH - not even once that I can recall. So, if I have, it has been extremely minor.

20 - at 6 months you are still VERY early into recovery. It is normal to have those emotions still under the surface. I remember going through it and being told that it is typical, esp. at the 6 months and year mark, to have bursts of anger pop up.

Early in recovery you are busy working things out; hysterical bonding can occur even - where you are hurt, but just happy to be back together. As we go through the stages of grief and life settles back in, flashes of the betrayal hit us and we're mad that we had to go through such pain, even if we are learning great lessons from it.

POJA is a crucial part of the recovery process! Although, you said PORA twice - so I'm not sure if you're speaking of the same thing. Are you talking about radical honesty or about joint agreement?

Keep in mind that you do need to be honest but you also want to keep the past in the past: that means keeping talk of the A out of your marriage, including triggers. I didn't quite understand this either; had a whole discussion about it on my thread.

Your first example is much closer to what you would want to say...you tell your wife that you are having a rough moment and also, let her know exactly what you need from her to help you through it. That could be anything from a hug, a reassurance of her love and commitment...holding your hand... whatever. You DON'T mention the "betrayal" stuff. That would be a lovebuster and reminder of the A for both you and her. (Yes, I realize when you are triggering you are already reminded of the A, but it doesn't do you any good to dwell on it. Trust me.)

We need a nodding head icon thing. This is VERY true. Been there!!!

Mrs Ren. mentioned this upthread as well.

I do! It is an assertive and non abusive way of refusing to take abuse.

When I first read this article, my WH was bringing up everything I had ever done wrong and flinging it in my face. Typical wayward style. I fell in love with the 'hey buster' approach and have used it ever since.

It does not matter whether you are the WS or BS. Abuse is abuse. And taunting someone about a past they cannot change is ABUSE!!!

A BS has every right to respectfully request needs
Every right to ask for EPs
Every right to ask for MB recovery conditions
Every right to decide the enthusiasm of the WS is sub par..
Every right to leave if that is so.

But NO one has ANY right to use someones unchangeable past to beat them about the head.

No right to DEMAND needs, particulaly the gift of SF with abuse.

My husband abused me with his affair. He could not have been crueller.

Does that means I get to abuse him with an RA?

Take him back so I can get my way every time with AOs and demands?

No, no, no, no, no.

That is not MB. That is the temptation of power,of being 'right' which first deceives, then hardens, then destroys the soul.

I don't want to be a vengeful spouse. I would rather be alone forever.

If the recovery is not respectful, you leave. You do not go power mad with vengeance and demands.

We have had great success with POJA. Radical Honesty is where I struggle that is why I mentioned it twice in terms of sharing with her what is going on with me.

Last night we were talking. I had been triggered by something while I took my son to his sporting event. It was actually Pepperbands thread on Lurkers Gift. Things in the thread took me back to our very dark time.

When I got home, I was feeling overwhelmed with the entire situation. Now, they typically pass within an hour or two vs. a day or two.

I realize now that I must never say anything at all about the betrayal or the A. But, how can I be Radically Honest with her if I don�t share with her exactly what is on my mind?

IG, great post. I especially was struck by the above! What an incredibly intelligent and insightful statement.

Its a quote Pep has posted elsewhere. I stole it!!!

Your pain is a CURRENT condition you must be honest about. Its OK to ask for help with it and describe what you need. That's RH.

Just be respectful.

I understand exactly what you are going through. I'm going to point you to the discussion that was on my thread as it discusses ALL of that and more, for several pages. Starts on page 26 or 27: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986&page=27

The jist of it is, your wife knows when you are down. She doesn't need to be told that her past actions are the cause, more than likely. There's nothing she can do to change that; she can only be there for you now - in whatever way you ask her to be.

Dealing with triggers effectively can be tricky business, for sure. You just have to trust that discussing them with your spouse is not the best option - it does not make your marriage better.

NICE!!!!!

I might have to steal it too! I mean - hey - even if it wasn't yours originally, you had the good sense to remember it.



Edited to add....THANKS, PEP!!!

SunnyD, what should I do when kiss wants me to talk about what is bothering me (when a trigger happens, etc) and I don't want to? I would rather just say "having a bad moment, I'll be OK" and move on but lately he wants me to talk about it. I don't get why?

I feel like my wife and I go through this same thing a lot. Often times, especially last week, I just hold it in thinking I can just 'get over it' myself, but it really just festers within me. When I was able to 'unload' the other night to her, it seriously just allows me to move forward. But I think the timing and delivery are the critical components. Like my wife said to me, I can't understand how you're feeling unless you reveal it to me. In some ways it brings us closer together. Now re-hashing all the A and what not has gotten pointless, but if the focus is on how I was feeling then(repeatedly rejected) we may disagree on things, but at least we understand each other and it moves us closer together in that realm. You can agree to disagree on certain issues, but it's imperative that you care for and understand one another too and then a lot of time the differences either, don't matter in the grand scheme of things, or one or the other may decide their stance isn't the best, or better yet, a win-win is approved upon by both parties.

I am curious as to why you would pull out SF in this statement?

Personally, this is MB advice I have not always adhered to. Because it is fuzzy to me too, at which point I use my best judgement.

Like I said, in my sitch, I brought up the A a LOT before my H actually made the transformation of realizing just how much damage he had caused. Not in the middle of a fight. But in ways to remind him that his actions were the cause of my pain. Right, wrong or indifferent, in my case this DID bring him to his knees and make him understand just how devastating to me and to our M his behavior had been.

Now, going forward, I never bring up the A in the same way. I don't want to grind him into the ground. Now that he 'gets it' and is committed to recovery, it is time to build him up to be the amazing man I know is there.

But that being said, I DO still discuss things regarding both of our infidelities. If they are on his mind, or mine, in a civil and O&H way, not blaming him or holding it over his head, but if it is a roadblock to us in some way then I do whatever I need to to remove that roadblock and sometimes, that brings about a discussion about our lengthy history. It was a decade of our life and marriage, and we have come a long way, but I am not going to pretend that the decade didn't happen. It is what shaped us into who we are.

So I guess when I have a bad day, or he does, we do talk about it. We don't fight about it, use it against each other, or in any other way 'rehash' anything. We just discuss it, almost matter of factly in the way we discuss a bad day at work.

I might add, as true recovery takes place, I don't have a NEED to discuss it, because the bad days get less and less.

Because sex is, or should be, a mutual and enthusiastic expression of love.

It is a horrendous abuse to demand it. Next door to forced sex. Sex should never involve anyone who appears remotely unwilling or unenthusiastic.

While unenthusiastically agreeing to go eat Chinese when you're not a fan is an abuse of POJA. Chinese food is not an expression of love. Chinese food is not sacred..Sex is.

Sex should never be degraded in that way. We should not allow it to be. We should not ask for it to be.

It may sound ironic for a WS to say so.

But any BS with half an ounce of sense should know it anyway.

I have heard sex recommended as a healing tool when both are still hurting, which may not count as exactly enthusiastic....

....But it is not angrily demanded which is much more greatly offensive.

Exactly.

It is not abusive to tell someone WHAT THEY CAN DO to help.

It IS abusive to beat a refrain of 'you cheated, you cheated, you cheated' to cause pain without any option for the WS to do anything to stop it.

The WS can not hop into a time machine. But they can pay JC and do the work to complete healing.

Any WS who needs persistant, escalated demands for healing is not serious anyway. Plan B exists to prevent AOs at someone who is not serious.

SF is my #1 EN, and I can say that when I don't get it it has a dramatic affect on my ability to engage with my spouse.

Everyone has a most important EN, I am not suggesting SF is more important than any other EN's, but it is 'different' in the fact that it can ONLY be given by your spouse, nobody else.

I see many situations where SF is NOT given. Because, as you say, it is an intimate need and needs to be enthusiastically given, and understandably it becomes even more difficult to be enthusiastically given during an A situation. So it becomes OK to not provide that need, unless you are mentally enthusiastic about it?

In my thread I talk about domestic support as a high need for my H. And how much I hate doing it. I'm not lazy I would just much rather be in the barn pitching manure than vacuuming. But I have succumbed to (attempting) to clean for 4 hrs/day to keep a house that is in line with filling my H's most important EN. I am not 'enthusiastic' about it in any sense, I simply do it because I have to in order to fill his needs.

Yet I should only get SF when he is 'enthusiastic' about it?

I am not arguing your general point here. I just feel a little like your comment is discounting the need of SF and suggesting that it should ONLY be filled when your partner is as into it as you are. That could be a recipe for disaster for many folks.

I agree with you that it cannot be 'angrily demanded' but I believe it should not be any less 'expected' as an asset of recovery than any other need, if not more, given the fact that it is again a need that ONLY your spouse can meet.

In my case, it was not to cause pain, but to get him to understand the pain and devastation. I think it is a process for a WS to understand exactly what they did. I think every WS's thread on here is a testament to that process. Not even HerPapaBear came on here with his first thread indicating that he totally got it, I'm sure.

Just as the MBers who are 'helping' a WS to see the damage they have caused, this was my intent with my WH.

And he had options to fix it, he just did not choose to take them for a long long time.

For the record, Plan B would have worked SO MUCH BETTER for me, but alas, I did not know of such a thing back then. Fortunately for me it worked out anyway.

I hear you, as its a need that's in my top three and was very low for my H. I have demanded SF from my H in the past. He even 'succumbed' to keep me happy.

Do you think that helped meet my need in a way that made me feel sexy and desirable? Nope.

There's a difference between saying. "This is what I need. What do you need in order to BECOME enthusiastic? What can we do about this?"

Not demanding with the threat of tears, sulks or unpleasantness.

In no way am I suggesting that people put up and shut up.

And I do think the reluctant-to-meet the need spouse should be willing to talk, try and discuss.

A big bugbear for me was his refusal to see a Dr about his sex drive. That is something he could easily have done to demonstrate a willingness to ACHIEVE enthusiasm.

The stick of Plan A is the one circumstance where Dr H allows and encourages one spouse to make life very hard on the other.

But the difference with a foggy wayward is the discomfort/pain is self created. Exposure disgust is earned. The BSs sobs of pain are mere honesty. Saying you can't stay married unless thay are safe is an inescapable consequence.

But there is a time limit to Plan A demands they get on board. If they do not, a BS should not choose demands as a way of life.



I wish I had known about it years ago!

�Sex should never involve anyone who appears remotely unwilling or unenthusiastic.�

This seems suspiciously off the MB reservation. Carefully study these letters:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013_qa.html

Note that a wife's need, or desire, for SF can be low, or as the above quote puts it �remote�, but she must still meet her H�s EN for SF anyway - whether she wants to enthusiastically or not (see letter # 2 in particular). SF is treated in DR H�s advice the same as all other ENs - just do them. Women are advised the same as men � just do it, enthusiastically, even when you don�t really feel like it.

Now, before anyone goes ballistic, it�s DR H saying this, not me. I think we can all agree if one is sick, wounded or otherwise not all there the occasional postponed meeting of any EN, including SF, can legitimately be POJA�d.


This takes us back to the original starting post of this thread. The subject BH is not getting his EN for SF met in the way he wants it met. He probably, I would bet Homer Simpson a donut on it, often believes this is because his WW still wants, fantasizes about or otherwise remembers OM. Yes, even ten years later.

I see no hope for that BH. No fix. Not when his WW is still as foggy ten years later as her own letter indicates. The BH needs to D her and move on. And take the children with him.

In that case the WW got away with it. And she is still blaming her BH to boot!

Yes I have read those.

The difference is that Dr H counsels that she WILL become enthusiastic when the relationship is better.

He advises that she become enthusiastic FIRST. It is also a situation where a wife is seeking a way to fill her Hs lovebank and is enthusiastic about SF to do that once she becomes enthusiastic in MB.

It is q different to a demand being issued.

When Dr H POJAd with Joyce his decision to do a PHD, neither were enthusiastic about the hard work and long hours.

But they were enthusiastic about the results of the work they would see. They both agreed they would enthusiastically welcome those results. And agreed with the method to get them.

The same is done in MB, enthusiasm can be achieved.

You can't row the boat alone. All the demands in the world won't get someone on board if they don't want to be.

No he doesn't. Even though my H's top need is SF, I can enthusiastically meet that need because one of my top needs is affection. This way, both of our needs get met. When a couple is in love, they have no problem meeting each others needs. What Harley does tell people is that it is important to avoid sacrifice because pretty soon people stop doing what they don't enjoy. So the goal is to make having sex enjoyable.



The "way he wants it met" misses the point. In order to have a successful fulfilling sex life, it must be done in a way THEY BOTH WANT IT. Let's say he wants oral sex and she hates it. The solution is to NEVER have OS, of course. It is to find a way they both like.

But this is all stuff you know since you have been here almost as many years as me.

Because he never asked for it to be met. Accusing a FWW of wanting to sleep with a man at the next table is in no way akin to asking for your SF need to be met.

If I accused the grocery store man of being a thief, I won't get any groceries, will I?

It isn't logical.

Sometimes I want to feel sexy and desirable and so you are right that would not really meet that need. But sometimes I just want to get some. In which case, I don't really care if I feel sexy and desirable.

Now I have already in my own sitch been working with my H to find out what I can do to HELP him want SF more, such as, clean 4 hrs/day! Lol. Not that I can necessarily complain, but more is better:) However, I think some of it, as you mentioned, comes strictly down to a hormonal drive. Yes there are things a spouse can do to find out why their drive is low, but there are some people where that is not going to change. In that case, they may have to 'just do it.' Right?

Well actually, I don't believe the letter gives us that information. Perhaps he does ask for it and his WW is just unwilling to meet that need. Which over time has caused his built up resentment and constant internal comparisons to the OM.

The problem with reacting to a letter like this, is that it is probably 1/10th of the story in total. Although I understand the Harley's must advise on the information they are presented, nothing more.

Unwritten it sounds like you are both sacrificing for the other.

Tit for tat, taking turns to be happy instead of being happy together, is what renters do.

The full version of the letter does include an accusation of the wife enjoying the man at next table looking at her. In no way is that a thoughtful request for SF! In what logical world will that work?

And I don't see why resentment building up over the years could possibly be an excuse for AO.

AOs are the individiual's responsibilty. If you are unhappy, resolve or leave. Don't try to force your spouse using anger.

I would take the time to do it right. MB isn't about settling for crumbs. Find out what is needed to create enthusiasm.

There is a problem here being swept under the rug.

Why is it you think cleaning will make him want sex?

Does having sex make you want to clean?

Or do you think you are both supposed to be unhappy while doing things as long as you get a reward?

Puzzled.

Just read the title and decided to comment without reading the content, so hope I am not stepping on anyones toes

The resentment issue, how it can eat us all up inside.

Dr Harley has explained the time allowed on the norm for the memory to heal from past wrongs done to both sexes, the male counterpart understood to be longer, from both the chemical makeup and natural makeup disregarding the details, which to most men, are just excuses.

But what really counts is the ability for forgiveness, to which I quote the saying, "To err is human, to forgive is divine"

There is a limit we as humans must understand as to our part in the marriage vows, and then transfer our spouse over to the divine, of which we are not.

So living and hurting with resentment is just a waste of effort, for other forces are better prepared for instruction, and also do a better job of it than we do

"Vengence is mine" is also an instruction, so let them have it, as circumstances will reveal the truth

unwritten, then you should not meet his need in that way. Making sacrifices is what leads to resentment and creates incompatibility. You should find another way to meet his need about which you are both enthusiastic. For example, you might hire a cleaning lady, teenager or buy a roomba. But you should meet his needs in a way that makes you both happy. What you should not do is make sacrifices that benefit only him.

Not really understanding this part. Do you have a link to where Dr. Harley talks about this?

unwritten, that is not likely to motivate him to want sex. First off it is not an intimate emotional need and it would do nothing to visually stimulate him. Have you asked him what it would take to motivate him? Has he had his testosterone checked?


Just doing it when you find sex unpleasant is how full boat aversions are created.

Dr H makes a joke (sort of, I think) in an article about resentment where he says that women have better memories than men, and so are capable for resenting for longer. Poor men! (Something like that.)

I'll look for it, but Brainy will probably find it first.

Okay gotcha. I buy that, because memories are typically formed from a strong emotional connection, and since women are typically more emotionally oriented than men, most women do have stronger long-term memories.

"Some people are better at remembering than others

I read recently that estrogen replacement significantly improves memory in women. Great! That's all I need. A wife that can do an even better job remembering everything I've ever done to offend her.

It's true that the better your memory, the more difficult it will be to overcome resentment. That's because resentment is tied to memories, and if you forget the painful event, the resentment is lost along with it."

Coping With infidelity: Resentment

What if the correct answer is to do both? Those 2 suggestions don't contradict, as you attempt to imply, but complement.

The tent is even big enough to include those who want to pettifog the issue without the use of linear logic.

For example, if a BH is resentful after 10 years, the reason is the marriage never recovered. It could be for many reasons, and all those need to be examined. Someone who has not recovered in 10 years is typically too lazy to use the program and too lazy to do as Harley suggests and get out. When I see a bitter, resentful BH on this forum years after the affair I know he did not follow this program. So I would start off by asking lots of questions to pinpoint the problem.

And of course the WW would want her H to stop bringing it up. Who WANTS to be perpetually reminded of their past crimes? Doing so just erodes in the love in the marriage so it hurts the BH just as much.

AND... guess what ..? I would tell the BH to stop bringing it up. The fact that the adultery is abuse is irrelevant to the issue because it is in the past. We need to deal with the present.

So, this poster would say BOTH. How do ya like them apples?

Yeah no time like the present.
In time once the EPs are in place things will improve

My issue was that it was over the first time, and EPs were not in place and I lived the death of 1000 cuts

No medals for that either, just a dunce cap

But still there is forgiveness, and it is sweet all round

You found it first Sugar. I'm not on my A game ***Edit**

Yeah maybe I got it wrong, because I know women have better long term memories, being ussually the victims

It's probably the pain that effects them being that long term

Oh of course I am kidding, women only feel pain?

Lol well that is another subject of course but men feel pain also, just not expressed the same in the type of ways

At least when I was growing up, we weren't supposed to whine and were supposed to shut up and take it

Not saying there are not and were not strong women who bore emotional pain also, or men who complained loudly for nothing

What I remember was that somewhere men were not as forgiving naturally as women, and I appear to be wrong on that front also, please forgive me if I misquoted or misrepresented Dr. H

Indiegirl and Melodylane,

For the responses that were directed at me, I have replied to them on my own thread so as not to t/j. If you care to weigh in I would appreciate your insight, thanks.

Very interesting thread. Lots of thought provoking comments.

Resentment had been a huge problem for me. I think some of it was related to the false recovery and how long it took my H to start providing just compensation. There was much to resent and it took a toll on me, physically and emotionally.

I have an excellent memory. All the things that made me successful professionally worked against me and recovery. I could easily get into a funk that would spin into resentment.

One time, I posted about an incident on the private forum. Dr. Harley's advice to me was to politely deliver the "Listen, Buster" message for me to not talk about the A. That topic is an enemy to good conversation and makes both H and me feel bad. It still took too long a time to not blurt out what was bothering me. I probably should have had the Bob Newhart Show "Stop it" segment.

I think the delivery of just compensation is the main contributor to dissipation of resentment. Without just compensation, resentment can linger for years and turn into one of those long-term bitter relationships, if there is any relationship at all.

AM

I love every word of this post.

ArmyMama~

You may find it interesting that 16.5 years later .... my sweet Mr Pep brings up the topic of adultery far more often than I.

Usually in this sort of context ...

"I'm so glad it's him & not me. That is really a terrible way to go through life. Disconnected from God and constantly looking over your shoulder."

We hardly discuss our past at all. When we do, it is about the lessons we've learned.

I usually hug him.

I don't recall this comment.

Resentment is a normal reaction to the pain suffered.
Resentment is proportional to the extent of the damage.


It is normal for emotional associations to fade over time in the absence of new painful events.
It is also normal for emotional associations to increase over time in the presence of new painful events.


There are circumstances where extended resentment is normal, not irrational.

The expected normal resentment compounds with certain choices the wayward may make after discovery.
IMO, abandonment by the wayward means Plan B, the sooner the better.



This above situation is exactly why Plan A has a time limitation.
The extended "cake eating" period causes massive resentment if the couple ever tries recovery.


This is where many betrayed fail to understand the difficulty of recovery when there is a huge steaming pile of justified resentment awaiting.
For wives, depression is the expected result of unresolved resentments.
For husbands, anger is the expected result of unresolved resentments.

IMO, the larger the pile of resentment, the more difficult the recovery, the GREATER the need for working directly with one of the Harley coaches.

And then, there are "The lies" .... the gift that keeps on giving .......


IMO, all those lies do more LONG TERM damage to the marriage than the screwing/kissing/etc.
Lies after discovery are resentment multipliers, not added resentments, multiplied resentments. X10, X 20, etc.

What is a false recovery without additional lies? I think that is what makes the FR soooooo toxic to any possible recovery. Which is why we urge the BS to be careful, set the bar high, and to keep snooping at all times.

And, back to this .....


Here is what I get out of this paragraph.... (the entire article)

Rational/normal resentments are self-protective. The emotional consequences of having a resentment is heightened vigilance and supervision over the situation. A reasonably resentful spouse is more likely to be "on the look-out" for further betrayals.

When a betrayed uses resentment to control or punish, resentment is no longer a self-protective response. Guilting one's spouse to "behave" is more than irritating, IMO it's a "sick" response. When resentment is extended in order to have power or the upper hand, it's not a self-protective response. Why not? Because once the past infidelity has been properly dealt with, it has been effectively neutered as a threat to today's marriage.

That is the major difference I see.
There may be more differences.

Ah Pep as usual, you hit the nail on the head

Lately it has been commented on how good my memory is, and I know that added to resentment in my marriage, but as stated in Dr Hs comments, the repeat offenses really set the mark in my emotional response

Forgiveness was easier, when the offenses were in the past, and reoccuring offenses just made the skin get tougher, and more resentful

Back again to Dr Hs comments on addiction in marriage, and the need to deal with that issue, before attempting to repair the marriage

I'm my case it was over way back when I left the first time, and all the praying and bullcrap Chistianity that was implored was not true accountability before God, no matter how it looked to those on the outside

"Say what you mean and mean what you say!"

One of the values I remember my Dad and his family having to give to us
And how sweet is that truth, as in the end, the truth will set us all free, from even our foolish hearts

I love your response to Mr Pep BTW. Truly you are a blessing to his life

As a FWW, I have a hard time swallowing this statement:

�After all, an affair is hatched with full knowledge of how much pain it will inflict on an unsuspecting spouse after it's discovered. It reflects a wanton disregard for the feelings of someone that was supposed to have been cherished and protected for life.�

If I had full knowledge of how much pain it would inflict on my dear husband I would have had the sense of reality needed to stop myself. I certainly agree with the second sentence. How do I accept the first sentence about myself so my husband can heal and have less resentment?

WhoAreWe, did you attempt to keep your affair secret from your BH? Why would you do that?

This is more of the quote from Dr Harley. You are disagreeing with Dr Harley's years of study, knowledge & experience.



Please not the following:


it could take a very long time, WhoAreWe.

Not to beat this topic to death, but I am still confused regarding a couple of resentment related matters. Background: my resentment was huge and it lasted for a long time. Now I don�t care at all one way or the other. It�s kind of moot. But, I do remember being so very, very angry for so very, very long. I even got myself a T-shirt about a year after DDay with the little Martian guy from old Bugs Bunny cartoon�s on it where he is saying in his high squeaky voice �I am soooo angry.�

Anyway, in no particular order �

� The difference is that Dr H counsels that she WILL become enthusiastic when the relationship is better.

He advises that she become enthusiastic FIRST. It is also a situation where a wife is seeking a way to fill her Hs lovebank and is enthusiastic about SF to do that once she becomes enthusiastic in MB.

It is q different to a demand being issued.

When Dr H POJAd with Joyce his decision to do a PHD, neither were enthusiastic about the hard work and long hours.

But they were enthusiastic about the results of the work they would see. They both agreed they would enthusiastically welcome those results. And agreed with the method to get them.

The same is done in MB, enthusiasm can be achieved. �

I don�t understand this post. It appears to be inconsistent. It starts off with one will become enthusiastic about meeting any given EN once the relationship is better � which implies one should start meeting all top ENs before one is necessarily enthusiastic. Then it transitions to one must be enthusiastic first, before one should meet any EN. Then it transitions back to one will become enthusiastic eventually (if things have been improving, which is a rather large assumption IMO) if one just does it even if one is not enthusiastic about doing so at first.

As a BH I was not enthusiastic about meeting WW�s ENs after DDay. I was too angry. Too resentful. I was not able to do it. Period. I could not even try. I could barely stand to be in the same room with her. Besides, she eventually admitted I always had been meeting her ENs very well. Yet she still had a 10 year-long VLTA. So, meeting her ENs did not prevent the adultery and did not make me safe. Someone explain that to me.

Even now, years out from DDay2 of the VLTA, when I occasionally think of SF I get irritated. I get physically ill. I no longer desire SF at all. I don�t want it. Too risky. I don�t think I could even perform. I will never allow myself to be that vulnerable again no matter how remorseful she is. I don�t care what the marital consequences might be. It is better to be safe.

And I best not get started on the lost children. Children she said she wanted (and I wanted) all while she was secretly on birth control for 10 years so pregnancy would not inconvenience her adultery.

Or her telling me over and over for ten years it was my fault she wasn�t pregnant and, as a matter of fact, I was terrible in bed too.

All of which she says she regrets now. Well good for her. Will get her into heaven, right?

The lies. So many lies, lies of commission and omission. All calculated to manipulate and use me. My need to feel safe after a decade of living a total lie outweighs everything else under the sun. And that is the way I want it. Enthusiastically.


� The "way he wants it met" misses the point. In order to have a successful fulfilling sex life, it must be done in a way THEY BOTH WANT IT. Let's say he wants oral sex and she hates it. The solution is to NEVER have OS, of course. It is to find a way they both like.�

This is not is in the original MB instructions. One must meet one�s partner�s ENs in the way they want them met. Not that those instructions cannot be changed, but a requirement they both need to want an EN in the same way was never in the first principles. That is something relatively new.

But the H is your example really does want OS. That is what he most wants. It is his top EN. You just stated he can never have it. He has to sacrifice it on the altar of what she approves of. Enthusiastically sacrifice it, in fact. Now, that particular example is quite OK by me (read above) but it does not actually support your argument.


�Because he never asked for it to be met. Accusing a FWW of wanting to sleep with a man at the next table is in no way akin to asking for your SF need to be met. �

Agree, accusation is not asking. Rather passive aggressive of him. But the woman�s original letter did not claim that is all he ever did. It was one example. The rest of her letter implies she shoots him down in flames more often than not herself. That seems very non MB to me and more than just passively aggressive.


� If I accused the grocery store man of being a thief, I won't get any groceries, will I? �

If your grocer was a thief, why would you do any business whatsoever with him in the first place? Remember, we are talking about proven thieves here - not mere rumors of thieves.


�Just doing it when you find sex unpleasant is how full boat aversions are created. �

I agree completely. Which is why I do not do it any more (see above). I probably do have a full boat aversion. Image of her with OM still float around in my head whenever I even remotely think of SF. But those thinks are very far apart now. Many months apart.



� What if the correct answer is to do both? Those 2 suggestions don't contradict, as you attempt to imply, but complement. �

Ah, good for you. Superpositions are entirely acceptable. Very few pure states exist in nature.

� For example, if a BH is resentful after 10 years, the reason is the marriage never recovered. It could be for many reasons, and all those need to be examined. Someone who has not recovered in 10 years is typically too lazy to use the program and too lazy to do as Harley suggests and get out. When I see a bitter, resentful BH on this forum years after the affair I know he did not follow this program. So I would start off by asking lots of questions to pinpoint the problem. �

No need to be coy, Mel. I am still happy to learn from you.



� The fact that the adultery is abuse is irrelevant to the issue because it is in the past. We need to deal with the present. �

This is a reasonable analogy? A man�s arm and leg have been chopped off. The wound is healed. He�s not lying bleeding on the floor. So, it�s all in the past. Time to forget the past and move on. He is still missing an arm and a leg, though. Is MB saying the equivalent that he should act as if he isn�t?

I don�t think the world works that way, but feel free to correct me.

And I still believe the original WW�s letter to be foggy. She was no where near meeting her BH�s ENs or providing just compensation or fire proofing the M. Not even loce. So no wonder the BH was still pissed after 10 years.

Aphelion you're forgetting POJA. Never do ANYTHING (including meet ENs) without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse and vice versa.

Nowhere in MB is anyone told to blindly meet ENs in ways they dislike.

You have to WILLING to sit down and POJA the EN. Until it is met. Enthusiastically.

No one implies that because it is not true.

One must ALWAYS be enthusiastic about meeting an EN

It is not MB otherwise. Where do you get the idea that you meet needs unenthusiastically?

The relationship is improved with a WILLINGNESS to meet needs and POJA. Not lazy obedience.

It is lazy to jump when your spouse shouts EN! You have to negotiate a mutual POJA �GREEMENT.



One must ALWAYS be enthusiastic about meeting an EN. The position here does not change.

You make assumptions and put words in my mouth.


Needs have nothing to do with the decision to have affairs. Poor boundaries do.


You don't understand POJA. People must not have their arm twisted anywhere in a marriage and particularly not in bed. Not very nice. There is always an alternative when people POJA correctly.



You like the word imply, don't you? Its a good way for you to raise assumptions when there no facts.



In a true recovery, he wouldn't feel that way. He has been too lazy to do one because its easier to use her past to manipulate her.



If you think you can spot a foggy wayward better than Dr H you need to revisit the concepts.

It is not foggy to object to abuse and seek help from an expert.

This should clear up any confusion about enthusiasm.

It has always been that way. Harley has always counseled against sacrifice. You just aren't familiar with his works.
I won't take the time to educate someone who is too lazy to educate himself after 8 years on the board.

If you don't know the answer to these questions, you need to get off your [censored] and read the material like the rest of us. A poster who has been here for ONE year, Indiegirl, shouldn't have to educate you.

indiegirl, don't waste too much time on Aphelion. He is not interested in learning the concepts of Marriage Builders. If he were, he would have made the effort to learn something in the 8 years he has been here. He is just trying to waste your time for his own amusement - he is not here to fix his own marriage.

Just look at his register date, he has been here almost as long as me and Pepperband and is still in a sorry marriage and still doesn't even understand very basic concepts. Don't waste your time educating someone who is too lazy, disinterested to educate himself.

Oh it WOULD be optimistic of me to think I can overhaul Aphelion's views after all this time. He clearly has his own reasons for believing ENs should be met on demand and it is rewarding for him to hang on to those reasons.

It's more I remember being a newcomer here, and when taking people's advice I would look at their registration date/status/number of posts. People looking at Aphelion's registration date might think his counsel to sacrifice is standard MB advice.

I feel a lot better now we have Dr H's words on this page.

I just wanted to make sure you knew that he is not asking these questions out of a sincere effort to learn, because that is not what he is here for.

So why is he here then?

I love the example of Mr and Mrs. Pep. A hug seems to be the perfect thing to "say".

My H gets upset by adultery in the media and culture and he is certainly remorseful. If he weren't, I am sure I would have much more continuing resentment. In the past, I would be much more upset than H, be physically ill when I saw or heard an adultery reference.

The radio show had a segment talking about women's guilt and responsibility in an affair. Dr. Harley talked about a researcher who interviewed 600 women who had been in affairs. When asked how many of them took responsibility, the researcher's answer was none. All of them thought their affair was their husband's fault. I think this attitude could contribute to a BH's resentment.

In "Surviving an Affair", Sue never apologizes to Jon. Yet, Dr. Harley talks about them being happily married today. Maybe, it is a gender thing, but I don't understand how there can be just compensation without remorse.

I think Pep hit on something when she talked about feeling resentful and depressed versus using resentment as a weapon to purposefully hurt a spouse.



AM

Good question.

I wonder if we'll get an answer?

I've been following this thread with interest, and felt compelled to comment on a couple things, although as a FWW I don't know that I'm qualified to speak on BS resentment per se...at this point in our marriage, overcoming indifference is a far greater issue than overcoming resentment.

Aph, you said:
As you've given me a similar analogy, this resonated with me.

A man who has has his arm and leg brutally chopped off - i.e., a betrayed spouse - I think that's an apt analogy to what we do as adulterers to our spouses. Let's add to that by saying that many times, there was no warning. The man was simply walking down the street, thinking all was fine in his world, when he was jumped by the criminal who popped out of an alley or from around a blind corner.

It is what that criminal - the offender - does at that point that I see as critical. Do we leave the man to lie bleeding from his wounds on the sidewalk? Some do. Some adulterers walk away from their crimes, without a backward glance. Do we recoil in shock at what we've done and run for the hills, leaving our victim to fend for himself? Yep. Some do that too. Do we stop and try to help our victim, but do it all wrong, oftentimes inflicting further damage through our incompetence? Yep. Some do that too.

Me, I was in that last category. I stopped my initial offense - I put down my machete, in other words...but while I tried to bandage the wounds I gave broken, I didn't clean the wounds out first. I left lies in there to fester and cause infection. I was frustrated because he wasn't healing as fast as I wanted him to, and I took that out on him. I was ready for him to get up and start running again with one arm and one leg, and when he couldn't run, I kicked him with trickle truth while he was down.

I gave my victim a lot to resent.

What about the offender who feels remorse? What does the offender do with that remorse? More often than not, that remorse doesn't happen instantaneously. Oh, we might feel bad initially, when confronted with the extent of the damage we've done, but the key with remorse is making amends.

Sometimes our victim doesn't want our help (amends). Sometimes they would rather heal as best they can on their own. They may make it to a hospital (here to MB) and learn how to best clean and bind their wounds, to regain mobility, replacing their limbs with artificial ones.

Sometimes the victim accepts the help of the remorseful offender, if they believe the remorse is genuine.

In any of the above cases, they will always have scars, whether they choose to recover with a remorseful offender or whether they choose to recover on their own, or whether they are left on their own by the offender who abandoned them to their fate. The artificial limbs don't work the same as the old.

In some cases they are stiff and unnatural. They cause the limping of resentment. They settle for the limitations, and refuse any attempts at physical therapy. In some cases, victims recieve limbs that are amazing technological marvels, similar to those that athletes in the paralympics may utilize. They learn to operate them skillfully and in recovered marriages, they learn to rely on their spouse when they need assistance with an obstacle - to trust that their spouse will be there to help them. The limbs don't work the same...they'll never be the original arm and leg, but the victim adapts, survives, and goes on to live a fulfilling life.

Some victims don't want replacement limbs at all. They may "need" two arms and two legs, but decide they can function well enough without them. They will simply stop doing some things they believe they are no longer capable of doing. Some will resent the offender for taking those things away from them, and some simply decide that they don't care...that perhaps they never really needed those things to begin with. Or at least they convince themselves that they no longer need those things.

The past has the capability to scar all of us. I have scars that have nothing to do with my infidelity, nothing to do with my marriage. As Pep brilliantly pointed out, it is all about choice. We have the ability to choose what we do in response to those scars.

Here's another thing I want to comment on:

I don't have a hard time swallowing that statement at all. As GO pointed out recently, affairs rarely begin because you bump into someone attractive in line at the grocery store and say, "Excuse me! Oh, hello there, my, you're good-looking. Whaddya say we hop on over to this motel next door and have sex?" Infidelity - at least in my sitch - was akin to walking down a set of stairs. Respoding to POSOM's "friend request" on FB - one step down. Sending text messages, emails back and forth - another step down. Allowing myself to enjoy the attention and flattery - another step down. Get it? At each step along the way, I made a conscious choice to proceed. At any point, I could have made the choice to stop and run back upstairs to the safety and sanctity of my marriage. No one can rationally believe they didn't know how much it would hurt their spouse. If they did, they'd be shouting the news of their burgeoning adulterous relationship from rooftops instead of skulking around secretly. If we truly didn't think infidelity would harm our spouse, we wouldn't do it in secrecy.

Perhaps that is correlated with the comparative rarity of remorseful FWW's to FWH's...I don't know. I do know that in no universe can I truthfully say that my adultery was broken's fault. Sure, we had issues in our M. Sure, both of us had unment EN's and LB'ed each other. Both of us were at fault for the problems in our M. But *I* was the one who deliberately chose to take each distinct step down that staircase. broken did not push me down the stairs. broken did not say, "Hey, why don't you go down those stairs and see what's at the bottom?" I've never understood why that gender disparity in remorse for adultery exists, because I simply can't understand NOT feeling remorseful for what I did.

On a personal note...as I said, I gave broken a lot to resent. I didn't give him a "false recovery" in the technical sense, as my affair ended upon his discovering and confronting me with it, but I gave him a fraudulent recovery based on lies. I try to put myself in his shoes, and even though there is no way I can possibly comprehend the totality of the damage I did to him, I cannot blame him for resenting me, being indifferent to me, even hating me. I can still see the tears of joy in his eyes at our wedding. I can hear him speak his vows (he practically shouted them out, because as he told me later, he wanted everyone in the church to hear how much he loved me).

I do feel like broken has chosen to live with one arm and one leg. And I inflicted the damage. I can't abandon him to live with the consequences of that.

For anyone who managed to read this far, I apologize, I didn't mean for this to turn into a novel, and I hope I made some sense with my rambling!

WPG, dear WPG, I started this thread with you specifically in mind, so you have more "right" to comment than anyone else. At least in my mind.

awww, Pep!

Usually not right away.
In the immediate aftermath, the only "help" that can be unquestionably 100% genuine is physical sort of tasks. i.e.: Making dinner, filling the car with gas, etc.

Emotional support from their WS is going to be perceived as (possibly/probably) disingenuous for quite awhile.

The quality of another person's remorse is a very difficult thing to gauge. Especially for a newly wounded BS who has a sudden distrust for his/her own perceptions. The BS questions what is real and what is not. Not just things about their beloved WS, but everything in their world. The BS fresh from the grenade has no sense of trusting anything they used to think was genuine.

It's excellent advice to offer to the new WS trying to help their BS catch his/her breath. Perform a multitude of real-life-helpful-tasks .... a TON of them.
Take over the grocery shopping/cooking/cleaning/laundry/child care, etc.

These things are measurable offerings of help. The BS can "see" the effort. Whereas all the apologies in the world will fall upon skeptical ears and stone cold eyes.

"I'm sorry"
"I'll make it up to you"
"You can count on me"

all yada yada yada

For the wayward not gaining traction with their betrayed spouse .... do measurable physical tasks for your spouse. Not asking for praise or even recognition .... just do these things quietly and with a glad heart.

WPG,

Your post is brilliant, and made me remember an analogy my W said early in recovery:

"Our marriage is like a vase. You may have done behaviors that put cracks in it, but I picked it up and smashed it on the floor."

Now it's a matter of putting it back together....if we choose to together, with the person who shattered it, knowing the whole time that wile we may be able to superglue the pieces (MB) together, it will never be the same...


Pep,

My God....you absolutely nailed how I was feeling as a BS, but could never find the right words.

Thank you.

Resentment for me at least is directly correlated to letting go of the past and feeling safe in the M, which is difficult. Memories never die even when just compensation and commitment to rebuild with MB has been established.

Safety: Knowing that your spouse will never again inflict pain on you. Knowing that your WS is never going to hurt you again. Getting to the point where some level of trust has been established where you feel safe to let your emotional guard down.

Our FR is making feeling safe very difficult. Some have said, waiting for another bomb to drop. This is so true.

Very difficult to completely let go of resentment even under the best of circumstances. Once the WS has shown you what they are capable of (A), letting that guard down emotionally is..well. Tough!

No BS ever wants to be hurt again.

For me ..... Safety = trusting myself to be able to recognize trouble and respond accordingly. I let my emotional guard down about 12 years ago, but I did not abandon my common sense or my powers of observation.

My dear sweet husband has hurt me during our years of recovery. As I have hurt him. By love-busting. Not with adultery.

At what point were you able to let your emotional guard down? What made this possible?

Pep thank you for starting this thread, I have been reading and re-reading it, trying to get me thoughts clear about my own personal thoughts and I am having trouble, but just reading others have helped.

WPG � thank you for your comments � I appreciate your thoughts and think you provide valuable insight.

What are thoughts on the other side of resentment, when the WH/WW is resentful (angry) with the BS, for past failures in the M? (I know its blame shifting) but has anyone ever dealt with this and how?

Firstly- we suffered no FR. That is critical, IMO.
Secondly- Mr Pep stopped his EA/PA on the day of discovery and went to the OWH in person to confess & apologize (with me by his side).
Thirdly- Mr Pep immediately stopped drinking and started going to AA (still goes, 16.5 years later)

These circumstances made it possible for me to even consider recovery. I had less to resent than many on this forum. Of this, I am fully aware & grateful.

So, you cannot really "compare" recovery timelines with mine.

I will answer your question like this:

Imagine your resentment is a mountain. The size of your mountain is bigger than mine was. Yes? With me so far?

How do you make that mountain go away? It's a damn mountain, after all !
You make it "disappear" from your reality by walking away. It gets smaller with every step, but it might not seem like it is any smaller for quite awhile, because it is such a large mountain.

Eventually, you will notice, when you look behind you, the mountain appears smaller as it lowers on the horizon.

One day, you won't be able to see it.
You know it is there, but instead of choosing to walk towards it to see it again, you keep walking away.

I hope this visual helps.

Your time line will depend on how big your mountain is, and how much you walk in the opposite direction.

Of course, if your spouse piles more resentments on the mountain, it grows.

Fix past personal failures. Constantly evaluate & update your own side of the marriage equation.
Both spouses.
Resentment will give way to the filling of love bank deposits and the elimination of love-busters.

It really is that "simple". Simple is not always easy.
Old bad habits die hard. At lease some of mine did. (some sneak back in, now & then & I have to whip myself with a wet noodle)

wulffpack_girl,

During the affair would you see the tears of joy in his eyes on your wedding? Did you imagine how much it would crush him on d-day? I know our affairs were nobody's fault but our own. But did you really enter the affair and participate in the affair "with full knowledge of how much pain it will inflict". Could you ever have imagined the pain your husband has experienced and taken another step down the stairs of the affair? There is no way I could have imagined the pain I saw on d-day.

Pep,

The mountain analogy is perfect.

Re. the "full knowledge of how much pain it will incflict", I believe the WS is so selfish and so self-centered that BS feelings are not considered at all. As soon as the WS starts to keep secrets, the WS KNOWS he/she is doing something harmful to their spouse.

AM

Thank you. Yes, I follow you. The further down the road we go I realize the FR created a much greater mountain. Oh, if FWW would have implored the same strength as your H to end it the way he did and move to R.

Maybe I put too much pressure on myself to heal. I am very much a �doer� and fixer. I get things done plain and simple. If something is broken, I problem solve, fix it and move on.
She is doing everything and more and has been for several months now. I appreciate it greatly.

When you have been with someone for 20 years as I have and trust is shattered overnight, that mountain seems like Mt Everest.

Marathon not a sprint. Marathon not a sprint. I keep telling myself this.

The person you are arguing with is Dr Harley. Not WPG.

I do understand what you are saying, however.
I was totally blind-sided by my H's adultery.
He was not.

The steps the WS takes to HIDE their activities means they don't want to be caught.

The usual reason waywards say they don't want the A exposed to anyone outside the marriage is that they don't want others to "be hurt". They are aware that if discovered, their spouse WILL be hurt. In your heart, you understand that the pain of a discovered adultery will be far greater than the pain of a discovered fender-bender you tried to hide. You may not have wanted to REALLY consider that, but you actually knew that.

When I told my dear Mr Pep that he had to confess in person to OWH, his response was: "Can't we stop the hurt here?" My husband KNEW full well he was hurting others. He chose not to think about it. I asked him about this multiple times.

Most adulterers can't see beyond their own selfish desires to notice how much potential hurt they bring. Yet, they HIDE their activities because they KNOW that what they are doing is both shameful and hurtful.

WhoAreWe, are you aware that the lies are the most hurtful things about your adultery?
The wayward mind says "What they don't know won't hurt them." ..... and this is probably the core of what you are saying. You thought you would not be discovered, ergo .... no hurting would transpire.

Am I close?

All that was on my mind during my adulterous relationship was me myself and I. Getting another hit of the drug. So no, I wasn't thinking of broken and the tears in his eyes on our wedding day. And I suppose that truthfully, we adulterers will never know the *precise* degree of pain our betrayed spouses feel, and likely will never know, until or unless we were also betrayed. Even then, the pain one person feels won't be *exactly* like another's. But I think that's just semantics.

Before I committed adultery, I did know how much destruction it could cause...maybe not firsthand, but I had watched the marriages of both my mom's brother and her sister implode after infidelity...I saw what it did to the children. I have heard my aunt, an unrepentant adulteress, talk about "following your heart" for years. I saw the devastation of the children involved. I saw my uncle lose his home. I would see shows on TV where adultery was a plot point, or hear on the news about another philandering politician, and I'd think, "B*tch/B@stard" and how I'd never do that, or put up with that.

Ironic, huh?

I smoke cigarettes. I know that it is doing horrible damage to my body. Every time I light one up, I know it is the wrong thing to do. It is bad for me. You cannot escape the news articles, the public service announcements, that tell me smoking is bad. I can't escape my mother telling me, "You know, your grandfather died with lung cancer, it runs in the family, you are killing yourself." But I do it anyway. I light up a cigarette with full knowledge that each one takes me that much closer to my demise.

Can't turn around and say on my deathbed that I had no idea what the darn things would do to me.

ETA - PS, Pep, I love the mountain analogy. Especially the part about choosing to walk away, rather than turn around and walk back towards it.

20Year


I cannot even begin to know the amount of pain you suffered having a FR.
How much it made your "mountain" grow.
I "see" it all the time on these forums, which is why I asked for help from those who had a FR to describe how that happened. Could you help out on the FR thread?

Here is ***the link***
The way I look at this is that if you can use your bad experience to prevent even one FR for someone, then you become a blessing. And, just maybe, one more small step further away from your mountain.

Thank you, 20Yr.

WPG-

As a BS myself, an A is a massive hit to our ego, self-worth and confidence. I often wonder if FWW views OM as the one that got away or just is digusted at the thought of him. I will never ask her this question as I refuse to give him 1 minute of discussion air time.

It is painful to read Dr Harley's writings where the WS had such amazing SF with OM and a seemingly deep emotional connection (real or not).

I think this question is inappropriate for the topic I have chosen to discuss.

Thanks.

Start a new thread?

.

And yet ..... People make the choice to tackle that huge thing.
The mind boggles at the human spirit once it sets sight on a goal.

Pepperband,

Isn't thinking "FWW views OM as the one that got away" a major cause for resentment? If the BS imagines the FWW pining for the OM, resentment will boil. It seems that BS on this forum try to focus on the fact that the FWS has chosen them and that the BS has won. If the BS sees themselves as second best, the consolation prize, how can they heal?

I strongly REJECT and OBJECT to any request (from anyone) that WPG ever put thoughts about OM into her head. It's NOT GOOD FOR HER !!!!! And, I care about WPG.

Maybe. It's a pretty terrible disrespectful judgment, as well.


Didn't one of Dr. Harley's couples in Surviving an Affair have exactly that situation? Have you read it?

Point taken. I appologize. Removed from my post.

Imagine Mr Pep is posting on MB. (He doesn't, but just imagine he does)
And, a BW asks MY HUSBAND to go back and recall any fond memories he has/once had of OW. Especially sexual memories.
How disrespectful of MY marriage would that be?

I respect WPG and her H and her M.

I know you meant no harm, but I trust you now see this from the perspective of harming another marriage. I feel certain you will correct others who may make this same error.

I have ready SAA, HNHN, and started LB. I will look back for a part of a story talking about getting over the feeling of being "second best or the consolation prize".

Are you walking away from your mountain of resentments?

Thank you for your FR share.
You may not realize how many people you help.

Hang in there.
It will get better.

I was called out and rightfully so! No intentions of inducing painful memories to anyone on this board for me to gain perspective.

Pepperband,

I am the FWW, we are walking away from our mountain of resentments holding hands. But there are days that we must teleport back toward the mountain for a few hours or a day.

Ha! ... "teleport".

I know you are the wayward. Waywards usually have a "mountain" as well.

What is your timeline?
D-day?
More than one D-day?
How fast were you to surrender all you could about your affair?

OK, back to resentment.


I haven't suffered as much as some people, but I do know what BS pain feels like and I could NEVER have imagined it.

If I thought about it at all, I assumed a Betrayed Version of Me, (BVoM) would be a sort of Beyonce video, throwing his bags out the door and assuring him I could 'get another you in a minute'

Then kicking back with friends and laughing his lying [censored].

Then I would come back with a bump to 'reality' and realise my H would NEVER do that to me and I didn't really have to worry about it.

I had no idea that the real BVoM would take nearly a year to limp away from pain that felt PHYSICAL. Like a rusty knife in the gut. I'd had no idea that emotional pain could manifest physically. That it would make me cry out like a wounded thing.

So I'm not sure how a wayward could know that.

Nevertheless they DO KNOW it will hurt. And consider it worth the price of getting what thay want.

I'm a year out and I can honestly say I'm not resentful.

I can still see the mountain, but it doesn't loom. I am not in its shadow.

I don't hate and resent my H. I hope he becomes a good person on his own, after I move on.

Instead of resentment, I am moved to pity for the day he sees the mountain he created is casting a shadow so dark that nothing grows in his life.

I wonder how he will free himself from that darkness. But I have.

And this is why YOU, Indiana Jones, are a MB success story !!!!!

Our only D-Day was a year ago. We "honeymooned" for a few months then he went through a long angry phase with a lot of resentment. That is when I tried to hold on to the honeymoon memories. Now his angry moments are fewer but somehow they hurt more and bring out my resentment more. Got to hold on to the good moments.

You guys are truly a success story

Thinking about the "sacrifice" thing, I came upon another outlook I thought was interesting

When we get married, we are not individual anymore, we are one

When we are a sacrifice, we do it alone. When we sacrifice what has allready been sacrificed above and beyond what as mere humans we can sacrifice, we frustrate grace, for ourselves first, and then for others

Sacrifice has been done allready for our sakes, we cannot exceed it, no matter how good we try to look

Does that make sense? Lol I hope so

Screwed up that post coming from my cell phone sorry gonna GP fix it at my PC

Tried to delete the last post and then edit it, both failed...

Think of Rosana Rosana Dana...

"Nevermind"

indie, I have to say, I thought this was awesome:



This thread prompted me to read a little more about resentment. I found lots and lots of articles giving advice about "letting go" of resentment, and they echoed what you said, indie.

Just some interesting bits:



I highlighted the part above that made me think about your post, indie. Says a lot about us waywards - a very particular state of mind and a particular way of viewing life...limited skills and abilities. I know for a fact that I am not the same woman I was in 2009. That woman had a very particular, wayward state of mind. A particular way of looking at the world. Looking through wayward-colored lenses.

I have painfully gained wisdom now...but to the detriment of my marriage I didn't have it three years ago.

Your WH is not just in the shadow of the mountain he created, he's chained to it. Until he finds it in himself to break those chains, he'll never be free of that mountain. He's not wiser and more aware. He may never be. And for that I pity him too.

Good post WPG. Resentment to me at least is a method to extend punishment. As if total destruction of me mentally and physically, humiliation in front of our family, having to carry a brutal mental lode herself, having a husband who has basically little or no trust in her, among dozens of other things, isnt enough of a punishment.

I gave me her some resentment based stuff over the phone last week on travel. No yelling. Just trust based stuff. She said, "I will forever try to earn your trust and maybe someday I will be successful...but I know I trust myself and right now thats all I have to go on. I know you are angry, I know you have moments and images still, I know I did it to you. This is what i created. Know that i love you. I loved you while I was hurting you, too. That may seem unimaginable, but when I think about what I did, its true. I have spent the last year trying everyday to make you happy and to feel safe and its very difficult with the emotions you are facing. I will never stop trying."

The point Im trying to make is sort of what is quoted above how resentment has no effect on the person it was directed towards. It only serves me, the resenter, to make open a wound in her, to punish. My wife doesnt let moods affect her focus. She doesnt cry or yell back, just listens and calmly retorts.

In some way, my wife's ability to handle my resentment so well is contradictory to her actually entering an affair. If you believe in the limited abilities concept, how then is she able to be all she is today? This is at the heart of my issues, how can she be the great wife she has turned into while just a short time ago she was living a morally corrupt, inevitably disasterous and moronic existence?

Thanks WPG. I often pity waywards, especially those waywards who seem 'chained' to it. In spite of the often extreme hedonism it doesn't look like a very happy life.

But I NEVER expected to gain enough distance to pity my own wayward. To feel ..a sort of mini prayer he delivers himself.

I knew hate would hurt me more than him..but active compassion? I wasn't even attempting that goal.

I think Pep is just so right about the mountain analogy. It may seem impossible to escape but just keep walking, walking, walking and there's no telling how far you might get.

BR: If I knew what I needed, I�d probably be where I could get it.

But, actually, I am not sure I need anything. I have placed my M at arms length and I am safe. I not only feel safe, I am safe.

The VLTA is never mentioned nor is the entire decade it happened in. It�s interesting living with a 10 year-long gap in one�s shared history. It�s sometimes an elephant in the room all by itself.

I find it interesting a poster takes issue with an individual word of mine. I think it would not matter, the word, though. A word would have been found to matter. To resent, if you will.

Resentment is what caught my attention. I had it in spades. But I don�t have it now. Wondering if others had as much to resent, maybe. If they got over it the same way I did. Apparently not. The advice on this thread tends toward the Suck It Up variety.

I agree with the following. No one should be abused. For any reason.

�I don't want to be a vengeful spouse. I would rather be alone forever.�

I also agree with Pep - a FR, is way huge. A five year-long FR in my case. Two false recoveries in fact. And the lies. Lies upon lies upon lies. Lies about lies. Unrelenting never ending hell of lies. For a decade. Sheesh. Seemed to matter to me, anyway, no matter what some posters here say.

Dr H says LTAs are very difficult to overcome. He writes this in several different places and in several different ways. That means (implies - if a certain poster needs a word to bite onto) many if not most do not recover no matter what they do (and I did every bit of MB). Otherwise a VLTA would not be difficult. Just tedious.

I feel recovered, personally recovered. What else is there after a VLTA? Nothing I want.

I will be gone for quite a while again soon. More travel to the East. While gone I plan to assess whether I should come here any more. I seem to irk people off. That is not my intent.

WPG � I am starting to think you will do quite well in the end, after all. Good for you. My best wishes to you, and to your BH.

I am not the same woman I was in 2009.
So much has changed.
Some sorrowful events. Some wondrous events. Plenty of mundane days as well.
Not to mention some terror-filled experiences.
This is life, WPG. You changed your lens, that is what matters.




A lot of wisdom is painful. Much of it involves being on one or both sides of the weapon. The life lessons we better learn from FAST are the lessons where we have chosen to shoot ourselves in the foot!
The real dummies in life are the ones who shoot their right foot, hobble about on crutches until well enough to walk again, then shoot their left foot.



�We forge the chains we wear in life.�

~ Charles Dickens

That is the human condition, WPG, not just you. Not just former waywards. All of us.

WPG, I see your beauty when you do not.
Trust me, it's there.

I do not think it is your best interest, or the best interest of your M, to be punished with resentment much longer. Think about what timeline you think is appropriate for the day of reckoning. Your "mountain" grows with every unloving action addressed to you.

WPG - quit smoking.

Look at how I changed this. (in red)

Now his angry hurting moments are fewer but somehow they hurt me more and bring out my resentment more.

Your H's hurt is expressed with anger. Not unusual. Hurt for men = frustration = anger. Men are generally "fixers" .... a BH is powerless to "fix" the past .... and when he is triggered/reminded his hurt boils over into anger and his anger hurts you.

Change your response from self-focused hurt/resentment to husband-focused compassion. You will be rewarded, I promise.


The difficult moments are growth opportunities. The good moments are breaths between challenges.

It's all a matter of attitude adjustment.
I recently had my attitude challenged. Not with adultery, but by serious health problems. I had a choice. I could choose my attitude, but not my disease. My surgeon told me that my attitude would impact my outcome.
Paying it forward.

As allways peps advice and comments are something to reflect upon and respect

Like listening to a professor at college, or a teacher at a lecture, such words of wisdom are lost in the online community, where they are not allways given the respect of reflection as we are forced to and expected to in that type of teaching environment

" A word in season" Pep..

I also remember from the reflection on the Charles Dickens quote about the chains we forge, another philosophy shared by Greek scholars about thier God Pan

Pan was blamed for our human weaknesses and transferred into Satan in the Christian belief system, blaming Pan for all of our problems and claiming he had chains attached to us. Like " The devil made me do it"

When in truth we as humans chain ourselves willingly to these things, lust, rebellion, and resentment.

Great words Pep

Thank you CP.
That was nice to read.

Sometimes I suck at being eloquent;


You can ether drag all those chains behind you on the ground, writhing with every step... OR you can pick them up, and carry them forward with you.

This is a VERY relevant thread; I just finished reading it.

I definitely fall into the "resentful and depressed" category.

I struggle most with the concept of "just compensation."

From Dr. Harley (the "Can't We Just Forgive and Forget" article):

"Your husband should guarantee that he will never have another affair, and learn how to meet your important emotional needs, as you should learn to meet his. I'd say that's just compensation, wouldn't you?"

No. My husband doing what he should have been doing all along, ESPECIALLY not having another affair, does not feel like just compensation to me.

And I have no idea what WOULD feel like just compensation.

However, I think if I could feel compensated, I could move forward.

BV

Six D-days.
Oh.
I cannot fathom.
Your H certainly screwed up royally.
You feel robbed by the man who was supposed to love & protect you.
I'm so sorry

Like!

Yes.

IS there just compensation in my case?

I have really struggled with how to apply this concept.

Or do I just need to accept that there is no appropriate or just compensation, and "it is what it is?"

BV

BV,

I think your mountain is a very high one.

AM

Just compensation would be pretty steep

With all those d-days it seems like it is over and done with and maybe time to realize your mate is not mate material

Some people just will not grow up

Thinking about your screename and remembering something from the good book that was shared in a devotional about earthen vessels

As we go through life we do not perfect experiences and we also have wounds that are sometimes not healed

In the bible that is sometime called a broken vessel, with cracks in it, not perfect or holding everything perfectly or completly

As we are filled with the love of God it pours out onto others, yes the love of God can be seen and recognized because we are broken vessels, with cracks in us because we are not perfect and do not have perfect lives

Please stay here and share as you heal, we all need to hear how God will work in your life, as I am sure He will

On the radio show from yesterday, Dr Harley said "resentment leaves when the present is happy." That has been true in my case.

However, I don't know if the present can ever be happy when there have been multiple affairs. I remember the case of Krazy, who walked in on his wife having sex. His resentment was insurmountable no matter what he did - and he and his wife DID actually use this program. So I do believe there are rare situations where the resentment cannot be overcome.

Typically when I see resentment that lingers for years, it is because this program has not been used, though. Most people with lingering resentment REFUSE to use this program.

This is my problem. I haven't been happy since 9/26/10 (DDAy #6 - see signature, below). I was able to regain some happiness after each preceding DDay, but not this last one.

We "did" the MB program (looked at the website, read all the books, counseled with Jennifer, etc.), but husband didn't "get" it. In fact, he NEVER "got" MB, as it is. He THOUGHT he got it, but didn't, and this was a HUGE obstacle to our recovery. However, he "got" "Leadership and Self-Deception," (a book recommendation from a former poster here, who he really connected with), and with this insight, was finally able to apply MB in a real way, beginning late 2010.

Resentment (especially concerning the length of time it took him to get on board, and my own uncertainty and resulting inaction regarding Plan B) is definitely standing in my way of taking the risk to build a marriage. I have the feeling that if I could be compensated, I would gladly accept the compensation and move on.

BUT (coming full circle here), I don't know what I want for compensation.

My husband has said many times that he would like to change the past, but he can't. All he can do is be a better person in the present and future, and that only time will show me that he's able to do this. I just have to decide if I'm going to give him that time.

He's right, of course, and when I was in IC (he came to a few sessions with me), my therapist said this was a healthy attitude.

Still pisses me off to hear it, though.

More resentment.

Struggling.

BV

From an earlier post ........ And a questions at the bottom.


Questions:

1. In your opinion, are you punishing your husband with verbal expressions or non-verbal expressions of your resentment?

2. In your opinion, are your resentments self-protective based on his extensive past history?

3. What's going on with your love-bank balance? Do you allow him to make deposits or not?

4. If you allow H to make love-bank deposits, which sort of deposits do you appreciate the most?

This is why Aphelion is one of only two on my ignore list. His advice is generally inconsistent with Dr. Harley's, and when I chose to heed Aphelion's counsel, the results were negative in my marriage. But he is very intelligent, and a very effective arguer with logical justifications for his positions. If you accept his premises, his conclusions typically are consistent with them. I choose to reject the premises & ignore the arguments at this point based on the results of experimenting with taking his advice.

Back on-topic, it's really important to never sacrifice to meet ENs. But on the other hand, when you're in the first year of recovery, it is difficult to enthusiastically meet your spouse's needs if you aren't in love with them. So there's "enthusiastic", and there's "indifferent". In both of those cases, as long as you have no NEGATIVE feelings as a result of engaging in the EN, you should meet the EN.

One example is fixing minor things around the house. I'm indifferent to it. Many of them I would just as soon ignore, as they are irrelevant to me. But if I do fix them, I don't experience anger or frustration. Just kind of a bored disinterest. But I know doing so deposits HUGE $LB$ for my spouse. And the alternative to doing them is hiring someone to do it, which requires huge $$ that we don't have So they get done nonetheless.

Chores are often in the same kind of category.

The important thing though, is nobody fell in love with anybody for washing dishes. The four INTIMATE emotional needs are the top priority, always:
1. Intimate Conversation
2. Recreational Companionship
3. Sexual Fulfillment
4. Affection

Spend 15 hours a week meeting THOSE needs. Meet the others in your spare time; many of the other ENs are necessary, but don't require your spouse to be present.

Addressing Mels comment on how most people will choose resentment instead of the program

I think that is true because those people have control of that emotion and it's a stable one, has a reward attachment so to speak and protection

And of course in some cases very warranted and nessesary protection also.

Then we must guard ourselves against resentment becoming our new love also, where we visit it whenever we are lonely

" Vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord", and when you leave ppl alone with themselves as they reap thier circumstances from thier actions, you leave them alone with the God of thier conscience.

As we see people are still human beings and the ground rules of living still apply and God will not be mocked, we realize also the obvious conclusion that we all need God first and another human being second in our lives

It's the obvious conclusion, " How can two walk together unless they be agreed?"

Give God the resentment and let Him handle it, He knows best and is thier answer, and yours

What is just compensation BV

Because my Wife is passed away now, I don't have that question to ponder anymore, but being at the recording end of countless drunken affairs and ONSs , that would be a question I would be pondering if she were still here.

Even her death with all of the craziness that brought it about does not answer my personal issue of why, but that is one I ask of God, and not of her

Then God answers," I warned you that she was damaged, and you insisted you could help her, when I warned you also that she was not really serious about Me either. You chose to be her provision, and you believed the line of crap set up for your own glory"

Yes all the sweet words and promises, and I bought them, as any fool does. I was sold a bill of goods and I bought it. Not wishing to be alone and the promises were to big for her to keep.

Such is the start of many relationships, and I knew that also. I was the practical one who had patience and understanding, and was going to be there till the end. But even to the end I still don't feel compensated

Putting my trust in God for those details of compensation, and waiting on him to understand in myself what I didn't do right, but I must remember that I am only human, and some things are out of my hands.

What I am trying to say BV, is that your husband can provide only the compensation for what he has done, and the questions of why you have been through this might have to come from God

I am still looking for that understanding, and because I believe there is a reason for everything, I expect God to answer my questions and issues. In time I have every confidence he will, and I will continue looking under rocks till then

Bless your journey

My emphasis added � You are exactly right, BV. Meeting ENs, avoiding LB�s, and being faithful is what we (waywards) were supposed to have been doing all along. Turning around and doing all that now is a bit like trying to pour water in a bucket full of holes�when the WS is the one who shot the bucket full of holes to begin with. Following MB is only doing what we *should* have been doing from day one, when we said our marriage vows. Aph said something similar on my thread a while back:



Consider that along with the case of the �typical� WW, who may give JC, but never even apologizes for her actions. (John & Sue story)


I think Mel has hit the nail on the head here: that ��there are rare situations where the resentment cannot be overcome.� Krazy walked in on his WW having sex, and he could not overcome his resentment. Mirrormirror walked in on his wife sitting in the OM�s lap and kissing, and if I remember right she was partially unclothed. They (at least last he checked in) seem to be doing well. I don�t believe the resentment hinges so much on the act itself, because we have seen marriages recover from a very wide range of atrocities. It seems to depend on the individual who has been betrayed. I don�t view that as any fault of the BS, because the resentment wouldn�t exist at all if we hadn�t given our BS something to resent in the first place. Again, back to the fact that this (JC) is what we were supposed to be doing all along�and PROMISED to do. What is possible for one may not be possible for another. Would I resent the person who took the life of my child? Could I forgive them? Some have. Me, I don�t know if it would be possible and hope I never have to find out. And Dr. H has often mentioned that people who have suffered both being the victim of adultery and the death of a child say that being a victim of adultery was more painful.


I wonder�is it still resentment per se, or is it apathy? Has broken gone past his resentment to the point where he just doesn�t care one way or the other? Is there a difference? Is one more �active� vs. the other being more �passive�? Does the distinction even matter? There are less angry outbursts (the last one was a couple months ago via text and while I was the recipient, the object was something that my mother had failed to do). It�s more just being ignored unless he wants me for something. It�s more little, mundane, day-to-day things than any overtly unloving action. I�m not sure that makes sense. Rather than being subjected to unloving actions, it is a lack of loving actions. It is a persistent state of withdrawal that no amount of need-meeting has been able to crack. The withdrawal is not only emotional, it is a literal, physical withdrawal � even though he moved �home,� he spends the majority of his time in the bonus room where he has a computer and TV, doing his own thing. Yet still, I don�t blame him for resenting me. I�d be lying if I said my LB$ wasn�t in the red or that I wasn�t hurting, but if I hadn�t cheated, maybe we could have fixed the problems that existed in our marriage. Now, I�ll never know.

I don�t know what my timeline is. Most days I think, at least once a day, that I can�t do this anymore, but then on the heels of that I�ll take a tentative step to try and nudge him out of withdrawal�a text, an email�last night I asked him if he�d like to go with me on a business trip I�ve got to take next week. Or out of the blue there�s something I take as a positive sign, like last week we actually had the closest thing we�ve had to a real �date� in ages�but, well, I guess you can go out to dinner with someone you don�t really like because, after all, you gotta eat something and maybe you just don�t feel like cooking.


*sigh* I know. I will. My daddy would hate it. Did hate it.

WPG .... looking at this quote made me smile ...

I promise everyone on MB that I have not always been the spouse I promised to be, was supposed to be.
I promise I did not always try my best to make Mr Pep's life with me enjoyabe.
I promise I was downright mean at times.
I was inconsiderate, not attentive, and on rare occasions even cruel.

So there ......

We all must own our individual crappy behavior.

I'm constantly struck by how important a desire to change is in this recovery process. If both spouses are willing to be better, it goes pretty easily. I know mine did, relative to the hellish existence many relate on this board. If one is reluctant, it's a much tougher process but often works.

But then there are the cases where one is reluctant to change and remains reluctant to change indefinitely. I have friends who act that way, and as a Yellow personality (I'm basically a happy person who embraces change and humor as a way of life) I simply cannot wrap my head around a complete unwillingness to try something new to improve my life.

Dear Pepperband:

Thank you for responding.

Answering the questions above, in an easy-to-hard order.

My husband does lots of DS and RC things I really appreciate (and certainly don't want him to stop doing), but they don't fill my love bank. I WISH they did, but they just don't. Also, I am continuously suspicious of his motives, as in the past, he would do "nice" things for me to rationalize his behavior and throw me off track. (And a lot of the time, they were things he wanted to do anyway (especially RC), so it wasn't a big stretch to do them).


My top two ENs are (you may want to sit; this may shock you - okay - ready?) openness and honesty ;-) and admiration. Now, here are my three "stuck areas" in allowing my husband to meet these needs.

Stuck area #1 - Openness and Honesty. I don't know if he can ever meet this need. On the surface, I have "transparency." He (for now) works from home; his work computer is locked down tight by his company; I am the account holder for the phones; I am (much) more computer literate and I am our bookkeeper. Absolutely no unaccounted for time or money. Recreationally, we do everything together. But, COULD he have, for example, a pay-per-use cell I don't know about, or could he go somewhere while I'm at work? Sure. He couldn't devote a whole lot of time to a secret life, but he could have a quiet, little hobby on the side. My personal experience has taught me that if I don't see it with my own eyeballs, it's suspect. Also, is he open and honest with me about his thoughts and feelings? I don't know. He SAYS he is, and I don't have any "evidence" to support that he isn't, but I can never really KNOW. This is a DJ, but I'll say it anyway: I think he is very reluctant to say anything remotely negative to me to 1) avoid conflict and 2) because he doesn't feel he has the "right" (for lack of a better word) to, as he was the one who had the affairs and lied. This makes me worried that the conditions that precipitated the affairs will be re-created.

Stuck area #2 - Admiration. What I would like him to do is compliment me, and this might make a deposit. HOWEVER, the qualities I would like him to compliment (maybe "assure" is better) me about are not qualities he sees/likes in me (PA and conversation). The qualities he DOES appreciate and compliment me about (one particular body part, the one I LEAST like to be admired for; FRUGALITY, of all things; and loyalty (sticking by him through the affairs) are not qualities that make me feel like a wife; they're qualities that make me feel like an employee. If I ask him to compliment me about the other qualities, he would have to refuse or be dishonest. (See #1 EN, O & H, above). And, of course, guess what ENs the OW met? OW #1 - PA; OW #2 - PA and conversation.

Result? Resentment.

Stuck area #3 - Financial Support. My third need would probably be (now) FS. To some degree, I can take care of this myself, but I experienced an economic hit this year that will take me (minimum) three years to recover from. I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO WORK TWO JOBS FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE OR HAVE NO CHOICES IN MY LIFE DUE TO LACK OF INCOME. My mother (who lives with us) falls into both categories; my MIL falls into the second. THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE ME. Lots of uppercase words; this is really important to me. My husband has been inconsistenly employed since 2008 and OW #2 was a major reason this happened. His longest stretch was 17 months out.

Result? Resentment. (I should add, though, that I don't blame him for not finding another job. There is no work).

Do I use resentment to punish my husband? It's never my intention, but certainly coud be a result. I'm just having a hard time reconciling that he got everything that he wanted, and I got nothing. That he has forgiven himself for hurting me and has personally "moved on" and I haven't. That his affairs made him (ultimately) a better person while they made me a worse person. That I HELPED HIM become a better person, but he CAN'T help me. That I am alone to deal with this all this resentment, and I can't say anything to him, because it would be "bringing the past into the present," "maing conversation unpleasant," an AO or a DJ. That I am left to my own devices to just "decide" to be happy. That everyone else can make this decision but not me. That I feel like a tantrumming toddler to even list my resentments.

I really pinned my hopes on just compensation, but I can't seem to make it work.

Long, rambling, venting, and hoping I made at least some sense somewhere -

thanks to anyone who had the patience to read this to the end.

BV

BV, do you have your own thread? I couldn't find anything recent and I thought if you started your own thread you could get more specific guidance to your sitch and the struggles you are having in your own recovery. Just a thought.

BV, Your dilemma is above my pay grade.
If you want sound MB advice, I'd go straight to the source.
If not, consider divorce because you sound absolutely miserable !!!

Sorry.

I do agree with Pep, and I see a long road back for you, but you will need someone you can trust your heart to help

I forgiveness possible? Will you be able to forgive Him? But most important is will you be able to trust him with your life?

I am the poster child for doing the wrong thing and if you knew me you would know that. I made the best out of a situation that I got myself into, but I failed at doing what I should have for myself at the right time, and also for my messed up wife

Trying to do it alone was my biggest mistake, and pride got in the way. I wanted to be a knight in shining armor and I bought the whole package as sold to me. I really believed I could help her, but became an enabler

It's the most easiest thing to do and is part, part of love

But it's not the whole picture, and we are afraid of letting go of something that makes is feel so important, so valuable, once we buy into it

As you know, when the honeymoons over, we are left seeing the true person underneath it all. That is when we make the choice to love them even with all the warts and blemishes. Will we stay faithful? It's a personal decision and personal beyond anyones understanding.
We cam become martyred very quickly to a cause and still be afraid to leave, out of pride and fear of losing what we invested in

The resentment will fade as you let go of it as your personal reward for what was done to you. Yes just compensation. Even my wifes death is not compensation enough for me, and I direct those issues to the Man upstairs. But answer is letting it go, which after 20+ years together I still learning of how selfish I am

You have time and years of habits and emotional baggage to deal with. With this site, your mind and free will, and the proper help I know it can happen for you to get better and feel better. Get help and support now, you are worth it

Isn't that what God has been telling us all along?

BV ..... read about PROGRESS when one of the Harleys gets involved.

** LINK ** to SAA thread Read what the BS wrote about his WW's progress once they called in the professionals.

That's what I was afraid of.

Thanks for trying, though!

My last, random thoughts on this thread:




I totally agree.

Infidelity, though, was for me a low and mortal blow. I could come back from many other acts of omission or commission, but (it seems) not this. Anything else, but not this.

I have asked my husband many times if the things I did and didn't do hurt him as much as his infidelity and lying hurt me.

In which case, I would be really, really, really sorry.

He said no.

And I guess that's as much as I can do, otherwise, I'm making a disrespectful judgement.

*Sigh.*




Thank you, ConstantProcess. A lot to think about here. (You took the time to post to my husband a couple of years ago when he was posting here - thanks for that as well).

I think about what you said above often. Do I accept the warts and blemishes of infidelity and lying? If no sin is greater or lesser than another, do I stand by him through future occurrences of infidelity and lying, knowing that this is the way he is imperfect, and that he will always struggle with these imperfections and sometimes fail? Is this only right and just if I expect him to stand by me through depression, withdrawal, angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements, knowing that this is the way I am imperfect and I struggle and sometimes fail?

Does the vow "for better or for worse" mean even if things are really, really worse for me?

(An aside: Previously, I always interpreted this this promise to mean when EXTERNAL events were "worse" - illness, death in the family, unemployment, financial struggles, natural disasters, etc. I never thought about it in terms of the marriage itself being worse).




Are we both equally imperfect and as such, it is neither right or just to ask for or expect compensation? Is the only right and just reward bestowing grace, and is the only right and just response to be thankful? (Can an imperfect person bestow grace? I don't know; I'm getting outside of my realm here).

No answers expected; just wanted to let you know that I think about the points you made quite a bit.

Now that I've taken a sharp turn and sped away from a discussion about MB principles and procedures -

I'm signing off for now; thanks, as always, to all.

BV

My advise:

2 choices ....

1. File for divorce.
2. Call the Harley's for coaching.

Either choice is ethical.
Staying indefinitely where you are miserable is not an equally ethical choice, IMO. (that is MY opinion)

The thing is .... if you go for choice #1, that's that.
If you go for choice #2, that leaves choice #1 still available.

Wanna know a secret?


Know that newer article, "How to Make Your Wife Happy?"


That was my script.


My final flame-out was about me realizing how much resentment I had willingly built... because "If momma ain't happy..."


I had built a crap sundae, and infidelity was the turd topping... and I was tired of eating it.



The final truth is this, resentment doesn't just punish my wife, it is self-punishment. It is self abuse.

Resolve it, refuse it.


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand.... I'm out of gas. 32 hours in 2 days and another 8 today.

Ha-Ha .... You are starting to write like I do.
Veddy-nice.

PS: Don't work so hard you get sick!

Okay, THIS is my last post! ;-)


I consider choice one. Trying to wrap my mind around living the second half of my life alone and working more to fulfill my responsibilities. Misery Door #1 or Misery Door #2? Trying to decide which door leads to somewhat LESS misery overall.

Once-bitten, twice shy about choice two. We did counsel with the Harleys for a year, after affair #2 (2006) ended. My husband was a highly motivated liar, though - he stuck with his story and did all the right things and we were graduated from counseling.

(Counseling with the Harleys "worked" for my husband; why didn't it work for me?

So, I went to IC for about two years to work on why I couldn't move forward.

IC didn't work for me. I didn't move forward. Why not?

The "why" is in my signature.

At least the fact I made no progress at all for four years made sense).

If my husband is not going to be open and honest with me about his thoughts, feelings and struggles, I doubt he's going to be open and honest with the Harleys. It doesn't seem to make sense. He also says he's happy with our marriage. If he sticks with that story, I'm possibly in for ANOTHER false recovery, which I don't know if I'm up for at this time.

I do think about counseling options though - we just may need face-to-face help.

I would consider myself having moved from the precontemplative to the contemplative stage of behavior change.

Maybe that's my progress?

Thanks again, and REALLY leaving this thread alone, now!

BV

Have I offended you?

(I feel like a character in a B-level horror film who keeps coming back!

No, no, no! You certainly didn't offend me - you were very helpful! I appreciate your time and I thank you!

I just don't want to monopolize the thread with my non-MB musings - time to pass the talking stick on to someone else.

Leaving this thread now, but expect me back later! ;-)

BV

Aphelion,

Thanks for your musings! It made my day. I just joined this forum last night ****edit*****but first had to say that your post made me laugh and I really needed that! Keep being honest. It takes the edge off the harsh world of affair survival. Loved: "if affairs are just a moment of weakness...anyone upset by it is a fool...". My being upset is just silly. Right? Guess my wanting to share my feelings with my husband is just weakness? This may look good on paper, but the real world is a big messy pile of sh*t. I'm not complaining. I've found happiness in it, but admitting that it really hurts to have your love cheat, lie, and crush your soul is okay! better than okay...it's part of the path to recovery.

Bye.

I hope your reading comprehension improves once you reach that greener pasture..

From another discussion in the "recovery" forum.

Ah BV I think it is all MB related what your going through

Hence MB and Dr H say it sometimes is the wise thing to do, divorce

I certainly get how you feel you can't trust him, and like Pep says it is over out pay grade. I think even if you choose to divorce you will still need counseling for healing, so let's start there maybe?

It's all up to you anyways and this place, as well as anyplace that wishes to represent God, damn well better be about healing. I believe all of us can agree on that

Yes in time you can recover your marriage, but it's not all on your shoulders. 1 affair or 50, it's his job to win you back, and I know how bad it gets when the issues multiply

Does he go to counselling for his bullcrap? Or does he plan on using the God card over and over again?

That should be the deciding factor, does he really believe or is it a convenient way out

God don't play that so he better not either. That's my advice to Him ; )

I agree. Very relevant to MB and Dr Harley's discussion about resentment.

An excellent radio clip on resentment.

The BW found out her WH had an affair for 7 years with an OW from work and she the OW was having affair/s with 4 OM at the same time. The WH wants his BW to just "get over it".

Radio Clip on Resentment

Dear ConstantProcess:

He's doing all the right things, but the problem is, the basic tenets of MB aren't working for me. (And by "working for me" I mean "making me feel safe").

Transparency. Got it, BUT....

If you don't want a secret, second life, just a quiet, little hobby, transparency is VERY easy to fake. Especially if you've posted on MB, read all the ways information can be gathered and know how to fly under the radar. So, the fact that I have "transparency" does not make me feel safe.

EPs. Got 'em, BUT....

At the end of the day, it's up to the individual to monitor and maintain boundaries. Some EPs are easy to "see" (e.g., no nights apart), but what about no flirting? No fantasizing? EPs that cover internal events are up to the individual. So, the fact that I have "EPs" in place does not make me feel safe.

Radical Honesty. Do I have it? He says I do. BUT, I'll never KNOW....

Honesty regarding external events (e.g., personal history), is, theoretically, verifiable - you could, for example, ask another person who would know. But honesty regarding opinions, thoughts, feelings, etc.? It's 100% up to the person. Maybe the person has motivation to be dishonest (to avoid conflict, as just one example). You'd never know. And what can you do to feel safe? Ask the person? Suppose he says YES, I'm being radically honest. That shuts discussion down immediately, because if you disagree, you're making a disrespectful judgement.

Policy of Joint Agreement. Do I have it? He says I do. BUT, I'll never KNOW....

Policy of Joint Agreement hinges on radical honesty (see above). No more to say here.

And I won't even get into the Rule of Protection. I'm struggling with a lot here. But I can't talk about it with my husband because then I will be a source of unhappiness for him, or minimally, I would make conversation unpleasant. I resent this. And now, my husband is a source of unhappiness for me.

Ultimately, I think (as Pepperband pointed out, although not in these words), the only things I can do are: 1) Suck it up, shut up and roll the dice. 2) Get a divorce and live alone. 3) Get a divorce, and MAYBE, at some point, sort through all this baggage with someone else.

No guarantees with any choice.

Sorry to be so depressing. I don't see a light; I just see darkness.

BV

(I'm hoping to win the MB recycling award for saying the same thing the most number of different ways....)

BV, what about extra EPs like his agreeing to take a poly regularly or whenever you want in the future. Does he have the attitude of someone who desperately wants you to feel safe? If he's a serial cheat surely EPs have been designed so there would be no opportunities for him to flirt? Or how about a post nup guaranteeing you get everything if any future infidelity.

I know one thing and that is you can't live under the shadow of resentment forever. You just can't! So 'sucking it up' is NOT an option.

Either the harleys can help guide you into a tighter plan that makes you feel safe or..you can move on.

That choice isn't misery either. I'm doing it and it rocks! You just choose places, people and things that make you happy and work with that (no POJA either!) Its very hard at the beginning but then it gets awesome.

A good dosing of truth HHH.

But, I don't think I'll ever be able to eat a hot fudge Sunday again, so thanks for that.

BV you should start your own thread in recovery. You seem like you have a lot of questions and I think people would be more apt to answer them on your own thread.

I agree with Indie, one thing that stands out to me in your posts is that you seem to have a 'fear' of Plan B/Plan D and being alone. I think you need to challenge your thinking on this, and ask yourself what is there to be afraid of? We have many amazing Plan Bers on these threads that have walked the walk and can guide you into a good Plan B and possible Plan D, and can attest to the self healing powers it brings.

MB is not marriage at all cost, and it certainly does not promote making decisions based on fear. Being miserable with a partner can not possibly be better than being happy alone (and there is no reason for you to believe that, with self healing, you cannot find a mate that is more interested in a dedicated fulfilling marriage in the future either).

Indeed. I am proof of this.
In addition, I will say that eventually, I am responsible for making my half of the marriage pleasant for him.

Once (if) both spouses make the marriage pleasant for the other .... the ship sails splendidly. It feels natural. Just an occasional adjustment to the rudder, a quick check of the gauges, and a nod of recognition & agreement from my co-captain .... and off we sail towards the land of love. Once in awhile we need to pull out the map/GPS/instructions and make a major adjustment. But, we recognize the need for a major adjustment a lot sooner than we used to !!!!

ATTENTION --- NEW QUESTION:
*
*
*
*
*
How much/quickly/completely does resentment kill what remains in the love bank

I agree.
Please start update your own thread.
NOT for the benefit of this thread ... but to better help you .

From memory ... my resentment filtered love bank deposits my H was making.

"Is this real? probably not."
"What does he want in return?"
"Can his kindness/affection be trusted?"
"He probably did this (nice thing) for OW too. It means nothing."
"He can't be trusted, ergo his attempts to please me can't be trusted."

etc etc etc

Trying to remember how this cycle ended.

More later .......

Example from my life:


During the EA phase, H did a super nice thing for me. He hired a limo to take myself and my best friend to the airport. She had a free trip for 2, and asked me along.

One week after we returned (another limo ride) .... H asked if I would mind if he went to visit his parents. His Dad was ill. Who could refuse such a sweet man, right? Off H went to visit his Dad for a few hours, then spend his first week-end tryst at a motel with OW.

Once I learned about this .... the *grand gestures* H tried to make were automatically considered counterfeit currency.
His efforts, no matter how 'sincere', no matter how 'great' made my resentment deepen. NO LOVE BANK DEPOSITS were being accepted.

at first .......

to be continued ...............................

Example from first 6 months of recovery:

H sincerely says: "I love you."

Resentment-Pep: "Did you tell OW you loved her?" (I already know the answer .... this is a trap!)

H (condemned man face): "Yes. I did."

Resentment-Pep: "Don't use words you don't understand."

H (sad puppy face): "I do love you."

Resentment-scary-red-faced-Pep: "Did you love me when you were (naming various sex acts) with OW?"

H: *sigh* "Yes."

Resentment-hell-on wheels-Pep: "Then what good does it do me to hear you love me?"

SEE how awesome I was at killing love-bank deposits !!!!!
Do I win a blue ribbon?

Can any of you match or exceed my love-bank rejections?
(coming to my point eventually)

I was not "walking away" from my resentment mountain.
I was standing atop and throwing rocks.

Love-bank deposits?
Methinks not.

A little Dr Harley to keep this on topic.......

One of the big wounds made by adultery-discovery is the betrayed's inability to distinguish between what is real and what is not.

I remember looking through photo albums of pictures taken during H's secret adultery. I thought we were happy. I thought those times were as happy and as meaningful for H as they were for me.

It did not help that I read WH's love letter to OW and he said something like:

"Is this real? It's so good, is must be real."

My conclusion? Their reality during those *secret adultery* times was "real", while my reality during those times was not real. I read this same thing a lot from the newbie-BS on the SAA forum.

Love-bank resistance and resentments both seem insurmountable when the BS cannot tell real from not real. Or, more precisely put, cannot trust his/her own judgment to discern the difference!

~~~> It is my opinion that the BS cannot begin their walk away from resentment mountain until they trust themselves and their own judgment.

Attempted Love-bank deposits by the FWS will be rejected by their BS (or analyzed to death) as long as the BS has a significant level of self doubt.

Stunning logic, Pep. The A makes everything feel fake and counterfeit. AND IT WAS. For a while there...

It's why I think I have 'the Truth will set you free' in my sig.

In a way though, isn't the resentful spouse wise? As long as she can temper it and keep it respectful?

After being paid counterfeit money for so long, there's nothing wrong with saying:

'Show me the REAL money'
'Prove it's validity'.
'Your credit and ability to make LB deposits at this bank is ruined for the forseeable future'.

But a bank owed funds wouldnt turn down money, when it's backed up by a guarantee.

That's why a polygraph, NC letter, Post Nup, are together worth more than the sum of their parts. It is the WS trying to rebuild credibility with proof through actions.

Even after that, there is a test of stability and consistency to be proved over time.
Much like a credit rating

EXCELLENT stuff. Please keep going.

AM

Your obviously an intelligent woman and have struggled with resentment BV. Not to be flippant but I'm sorry you are so smart. At the time these mountains come into our lives, most of us in a personal relationship try to handle it all, and the result most of the time is resentment

Why me? I gave them every chance, I operated with integrity and forgiveness, why can't I put it in the past?

The intelligence God gave you WILL eventually lead you out of the woods, where you will find peace from all this, whether you recover your marrige or not. I hope you recover, and because you think, your thoughts will be the key

I'm not trying to tell you you must comply to recovery, or convince you to forgive him, this site has the tools better than anything I recognize, but that is up to you, your own personal journey, emotions, and of course, your free will choice. That is clear from Dr Hs teaching, and spirit that keeps marriages alive and healthy. They are supposed to add to us, not reduce us

That's why God is involved

Divorcing him does not mean you are not a Godly person either, so I won't go there.

Start your own thread, and let us all dedicate ourselves to your situation. I can't promise the help like from a professional like Dr H, but the care and interest that will be shown you will help you sort out what you need to heal

�We forge the chains we wear in life.�

~ Charles Dickens

I refuse to waste my life throwing rocks!

I refuse to live in victimhood.

I cast away both those chains.

Then what?

Corrie ten Boom is my heroine.


When my rock-throwing-pitching-arm grew weary ... (By the way, all that rock-throwing made me look stupid to myself )

.... but my heart was still breaking .... What did I do?

Stay tuned.

I support all of these MB-based actions as the waywards journey back to the marriage. You are correct - these are all WS-centric activities. Wayward credibility.


It is my opinion that none of the above WS tasks adequately addresses the betrayed's lack of confidence in their own ability to discern truth from lies in the future.

I believe the lack of confidence you are talking about is huge. Although I had had many professional and personal successes, after the A and especially after the FR, I felt almost no self confidence. I felt like the "nothing" in the "The Neverending Story". I was unsure of my preceptions, was out of tune with current events around me. And I couldn't even consider the future.

I think the only thing that can change this lack of confidence is time. The more current reality is consistent with preception, the better the confidence. I think, maybe.



AM

I surrendered.

I was in my bedroom closet, door closed.
On my knees weeping. There, I surrendered.
I hated my rock throwing.
I hated my lack of confidence.
I hated not having the answers.

I surrendered.

The origin of The Serenity Prayer is attributed to Niebuhr:


I acknowledge this as my blueprint for expunging my heart of my resentments.

I once wrote to BobPure ... "Sooner or later you will have to give up hope for a better yesterday."

This is surrendering.

The most important thing is this: We accept that we cannot change the past.
We cannot change others.
We have the courage to change ourselves.

Off soap box now.

After surrender ... what then?

Back to MB basics, naturally.


Just 4 simple rules.
How hard could it be, right?


OMG it's sooooooooooooo hard!

But, there it is.
4 simple (not easy) rules.

Using resentment as a punishment is a direct violation to rule #1.

Once a couple considers themselves to be "in recovery" process .... the rules are not divided.

Such as:
Rules for the BS.
Rules for the WS.

No. Dr Harley is very clear.
One set of rules.
Love bank filling.
No withdrawals.

Excellent!

I hated my rock throwing.
I hated my lack of confidence.
I hated not having the answers.

I surrendered.

To.....?

Fate? Chance? The Almighty? Your WH's whims and choices?

Your timeline is not all that clear as to the date of your capitulation, Pep, and how long your rock-throwing endured, but I'm not sure all BSs can comfortably...abdicate...management of their own recovery process to anyone/thing. (From an extremely limited sample-size, it appears to be a gender-based issue.)

For me it required the mental construct of "ending it" with bride number 1, and concurrently beginning a new life with bride number 2 (or anyway, bride number 1A). I invested and assigned all resentment to that first person, leaving myself free to dispassionately analyze the potential of the second to NOT betray me as did the first. Some of the other BHs here have heard this from me, and it seems to have helped them (or at least they were kind enough to inform me I was full of **it!).

Regardless of the methodology, though, it does seem necessary (theoretically and experientially) that there needs to be some way of forming a break between the reality of what happened, and the forecast of what will never happen again, if the marriage is to re-flourish, resentment being an alias for "suppressed suspicion".

Statistically speaking, it is much harder to detect falsehood from a spouse than from a stranger. In repeated, controlled studies on the topic, people average about 50% falsehood detection when a stranger is telling the falsehood. These same people average about 25% falsehood detection when a spouse tells them the falsehood.

Moral of the story: you're inclined to give your spouse the benefit of the doubt much more than a stranger would, and if your spouse is lying to you you are MUCH less likely than a stranger would be to detect it.

The most important take-away is this, as Dr. Harley often says on the radio show:

"You can trust everybody under some conditions, and you cannot trust anybody under other conditions." He commonly uses the example that your spouse is probably perfectly trustworthy when you are snuggled up alone together on the couch at home talking and exchanging affection. The spouse would be less trustworthy if out at a singles bar with some friends.

Trust is not a lightbulb. The purpose of "extraordinary precautions" is to create the conditions in your marriage under which you can trust one another. If those conditions are not present, you cannot trust one another to one degree or another.

Under what conditions can you trust your spouse? Under what conditions can you not trust them? Figure that out, and you're well on your way.

Pep,

I read your story yesterday with interest.

I have a question:

Would you say that the change you made was a change in behavior, a change in beliefs, or a change in feelings?

That is powerful imagery...building on that, what about the possibility that there are others who stand on top of their mountain of resentment and don't necessarily throw rocks, but have instead built themselves a fortress? I wonder if in those cases, the FWS can never hope to breach those walls. And, you (the FWS) can't blame them for needing to protect themselves from you, especially after giving them a reason to need protection.

I think this is why it is especially important to have a plan you have confidence in. When you lose confidence in yourself, you still have the steps to follow that you can grab onto - like a ladder in the pool when you are tired and feel like you're going to drown. And that ladder is there whether it's personal recovery or marital or both.

(I like using that analogy because it's something my H said I was to him...)

Edited to add... lots of good stuff here on these past couple of pages - I'm just out of time to comment on it all!

My changes began with a change in my attitude.
Asking God to take the wheel, because I was wildly all over the road and crashing into things. I knew I was causing more damage, and I knew I had to stop (for my own sake), but I did not know how.

Please, remember, this was all pre-MB forums.

My feelings were just like every other BS. Helplessness + anger = one crazy lady.

The first behavioral change I made was to become quiet and shut-the-hell-up! My 'rocks' were verbal.

My belief in my God was briefly shaken, then grew stronger.

This is why I asked you about your timeline.

It is my opinion ~~~> that if the BS has created a never-ending impenetrable wall keeping their husband/wife at a distance ... then they should divorce. Especially if years have past and the FWS has done every effort asked of them.

Like MBer Krazy ... his wife did the right things reaching towards recovery, but Krazy finally came to the conclusion he could not ever lower his defenses and allow himself to become vulnerable to love his wife again. In those circumstances, it is kinder to divorce than live in an ice house. IMO, Krazy did his wife a favor. He tried. He could not. He acknowledged he could not. He filed for divorce. IMO, his divorce was an ethical choice. He was honest. He did not fail. He tried.


The wall of protection may be used as a weapon .... if used dishonestly to keep the FWS in a forever limbo.

My God.
I surrendered my pridefulness.

TRUE !!!!


Cool phrase.




Also, figure out under what circumstances you can trust yourself.

Wonderful! Thanks.


awwwwwwwwwwww

I call a "time out" on this. (picture me, wearing a striped referee shirt, making the "T" sign with my hands)

Your H is allowing you to do things FOR HIM but not accepting love-bank deposits in order to build a loving relationship with YOU.

I call this dishonest bullcrap. I don't call it "protection". Protection is Plan B.

DoNoMo got the quote I liked
Recovery really begins when you can trust yourself

Let's take the other partner out of the picture, Plan B as it is practically used.
There is where the resentment lies, within yourself about yourself. Also the evidence of trusting what your spouse says about 25% of the time and what strangers 50% makes sense too

I love the quote made to BobPure also Pep

So where does healing and strength begin? It's within yourself

Many marriages can be healed at the same time, but separating the subjective from the objective is a nessesary process that takes time

"How could I have been such a fool? Why did this happen to me?" Ask god and his counselors
"Why did they lie? Why did they cheat?" Ask the cheating spouse or thier counsellors

Trusting yourself comes first

Thanks for this thread Pep may God continue to richly bless you

Oh just picked up on it that you healed your affair issue Pre-Mb Pep

Much like what drew me to Dr H and the forums, when I read about plan B and had accually done it myself years ago.

Just makes sense huh?

Them aliens

My God. I surrendered my pridefulness.

As I try to interpret this, you were able to subordinate your resentment of, and innate distrust in, WH to your faith that He would protect your interests?

If so, I'm impressed (obviously not for the first time!), all the more because that would have been impossible for me to accomplish. I know that because I tried it.

The problem that kept raising its head was that I knew that bride and I had made all the sacred vows in His presence on our wedding day. If to Him was to be ascribed the ability to ensure/assure bride's fidelity in the FUTURE, what failure caused Him to not attend to that detail in the PAST? (Let's not even open the discussion of the impossibility of failure on His part!)

Please don't take this discussion as my doubting that it worked for you, or might not work for others. I just cannot envision ever having enough personal faith in the Almighty/spouse linkage to trust it.

Not exactly.
I surrendered that I did not know what I was doing.
I was lost.
I was going to need His guidance.
I had faith that I would make better choices because He was going to slap me around (or, gently guide me if possible) if I made wrong choices.

Mr Pep could have gone off to fly flaming poo kites in the pouring rain .... for all I cared at that time.

I was focused on myself and my need for His Grace.

Yeah I hear ya NG
For years I had said when I got to heaven I had a bone or two to pick with God
" You said this, and allowed that, WTH?. I did all you asked and was ready to die for it, but you leave me like a fool in this world? You better have an answer!"
Such is the male response

Seems like I was right years ago when I left her because she drank. Not bringing in God at all, just common sense and survival.

Yeah heard it all then too, eventually I would be OK, but I needed support and didnt look for it because of pride as I hardened my heart

That doesn't work either because our hearts were not designed to be hard. We eventually fall again for what my friend called then," The tender trap"

In my case I went out to find zactly what my wife had done, with all the same bullcrap, like we warn others here when they think,"I just am so lonely and need to be loved" what a sucker, and falling into that set ME up for a false recovery with my wife. Which turned out to have deadly consequences as you know
The game of love, where the cards are stacked in Gods favor" Who is first shall be last"
The resentment takes years to overcome, and as two years approached when wife was clean and things looked up, I was still processing the resentment from the past, when it all started again, but now we were going to church, involved with ministy out saving souls and of course it would be alright, God was looking out for us, forgivness was the answer.
So I personally went for round two of the suffering savior role. Or round three, lost count

When will we realize Christ allready died so we could have life and stop trying to mimic him?
We own resentment and it's a hell we embrace as just compensation for wrongs done to us that in some way I guess we asked for

This is a very sad image WPG. A BS has the right to walk away..but stand still and build a fortress? How woefully depressing for all concerned.

If my H comes to repentance after a D, I will not walk with him. But not because I am walled in to the mountain, but because I have already walked away in such a fashion he cannot follow. And that is kinder. He can heal and close his lovebank for me (even if it is just the cake-eating kind) without me there.



No matter what the past, two people are needed to make a couple. One person cannot be asked to give and give.

That is the dangerous deception resentment tries to con the betrayed into 'Get whatever you want! On demand! They OWE you!'


Its OK short term, but not forever.

Yeah Indie you got it
Even the passion and self seeking anger of resentment wanes after a time, and what a waste of time
We are spiritual beings and we gotta ne honest about that, our emotions are running our lives
So it's no wonder when Peter walked on the water in the bible, ( the water being in many beliefs to be like our emotions and simulates them in us), that when he became aware of what he was doing, he plunged back into it again.

The emotions don't think, they react. They make little sense

Building that fortress is natural for men, like the mancave, but women do it too when they seek shelter

Thanx, Pep. I think the concept made it through the casaba this time.

You weren't expecting Him to assure WH's new fidelity;
you were putting in His hands your welfare regardless
of whether or not WH got with the program.

Hmmmmmm......I have to think on that one.

WPG:

Your H is allowing you to do things FOR HIM but not accepting love-bank deposits in order to build a loving relationship with YOU. I call this dishonest bullcrap. - Pepperband

This is kinda the issue I've been anticipating discussing with you on your thread. In essence, there are only four "Plans" open to a BS, long-term:

Plan A, Plan B, Plan D, and Plan M.

I'll wait for you.

Me? WPG?

I'm a little thick this morning.

Edit to add:
Plan A is not supposed to be long term.
By "Plan M" I think you mean marital recovery, am I correct?
Are you posting from mobile device?

No, you're not thick, Pep. I was trying to get a point to WPG. From her posting on her thread, she got it.

Yes, I know Plan A is not really long-term. What I should have said was steady-state, as in "once all the oscillations stop".

And Yes, Plan M is "Plan Marital Recovery/Marriage".

An excellent show that the Harley's talked to the BW and WH. You could still hear the resentment (understandably so) in the BW's voice. Also Dr. Harley explains how if he didn't live by his EP's he would've been just like the WH.

Radio Clip on a BW and WH married for 38 years and he had an affair for 8 years
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4
Segment #5

Another excellent two part series. The callers back in May after the BW just found out about her WH's affair from 6 years ago.

Radio Clip on Affair from 6 years a...ly friend and BW just found out about it
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Here's the follow up call (from the couple from May's call) and Dr. Harley finds out that they aren't following the program.

Radio Clip
Segment #2
Segment #3

This has been an excellent thread for me.

I have been thinking about Pepperband's early recollections each day for the past few weeks, and GREATLY appreciate her sharing them.

Headed over to my old thread (on Surviving) with this, if anyone wants to stop by.

You may want to bring your own flashlight, as it tends to get pretty dark at times.... ;-)

BV

A Good clip on resentment.
Radio Clip on Resentment

Thank you..I will be listening to this tonight after work...

I wonder, is this why plan (R) revenge sounds soooooo good. I've worked so hard at letting things go and seen karma work it's magic several times, even years down the road. In the end their was always someone at that point willing to turn the wrong to a right even years. Why can't it be me?

Plan R is all about your ego.
Look at what you wrote...

You think you can drive the karma bus! Really? Are you OZ, the powerful & mighty wizard?

The karma bus tosses out and runs over the ego who try to steer it.

Renters always think Plan Revenge sounds good.
After all their years of sacrificing, are they not due for some self-help justice?

I'd like to think I'm not a renter. I initally gave up the buyer attitude after the first ILYBNILWY (she used it once) and it didn't make sence. She finally told me the same day 6 years into our marriage she'd had sex with someone else when I broke up with her for a week when we were dating. Her expectation was I'd divorce her...surprise...I didn't as we had two small kids. After that the resentent started setting in.

I tried to put it behind me and make the marriage better. I think that was her exit stratigy and when it didn't work she became even more uncareing.


That's when my plan (R) was hatched!...Yes, I've been know to hold a grudge.

Let's pretend is for another time, another game ..... Not this time my friend.



Grudges are heavy, aren't they?
Your arms must be exhausted by now.
It's interesting how you chose your MB forum name ... not so tuff.

NST,

We all want revenge. It's in our nature to seek justice and sometimes the only kind we can see is payback. But thats childish at its very core. Keeping grudges is nothing more than trying to hold onto excuses to seek revenge. That itself ties your hands up from doing anything productive to save your marriage.

It's time to put away your childish behavior and become the man you were destined to be. In the end, this is the ONLY thing that YOU can control. What she might do should not change how you behave now. Become the man ANY woman would want and you might find that your wife will be one of them. In the end, if your wife doesn't want recovery, then you'll already be whole when you face the next season of your life.

Yes, I am not so tough. I�ve been through what I think is hell but reading SAA�.I really have respect for those folks as I�m pretty sure I�d end up on the front page of a newspaper.

Revenge sounds as sweet as honey but I know that will never happen. I�ve long given up childish things and look for �the way� best way forward. I don�t want to hold resentment in my heart�I have to admit in the darkest corners nothing would make me happier than to see the karma bus roll into town. AS Pep already mentioned it doesn�t work like that. The more you hate (try to drive the bus) the more likely you�ll be ran over. This thread helped me understand why even little things bothered me so much�it felt like I�d just been through a prison shower.

Sorry about that...everyone tells me I add too much visiual imagery to what I'm saying.

self edit for vulgarity

googling "prison shower " now.....

NO!
Don't google that!

Lol, I didn't! I promise

I was going to pull into this argument about the Greek God man Hercules..and the Nemean lion, which was his Ego..Which in legend..Hercules had to kill the lion/ego, so he could wear his skin.

Thus conquering his own ego, it was now a protective skin he could wear..

See a lot of us have been through that..and until you go through it, you don't understand it..

Please listen to the wise Pep, and yes all this will pass, in time my freind

Just watch the movie American History X.

Bumping this thread. I just read through the first 20 pages or so of it again. I know I still hang onto resentment and wish I could just let it go! I love Pep's analogy about the mountain.

BTW, I miss Pepperband.

Radio Clip on Resentment

This is a very insightful and helpful thread. I think I read a little some time back but wasn't in a place where it made the sense it does now. Thanks for the bump.

I know this is old.

But what do you do when your Wife resents you so much that she says nothing will fix it and can't be with you anymore?

You focus on killing her affair, Nick. You do not waste time bumping threads in areas of the MB site that are intended to deal with couples in Recovery (i.e. - not you). You do not use the MB forum to blog and ponder "what if"s. You focus on killing the affair, because if you never attempt to do that, your wife's affairs will multiply and she will leave you for someone else.

You expose as you've been advised to do.

You take your courage in your hands and you fight for the future of your small children. If your wife goes off with the scumbags to whom she has been sending naked pictures, she will have your children with her half the time, and they will be at risk of sexual abuse from her low-life sexual partners.

You've been here since Sunday, and between all the posters, HOURS have been spent posting to you and trying to guide you through the steps - and yet here you still are, no further forward than you were nearly a week ago.

Blogging on this forum, and bumping old threads, is not going to save your marriage. Only tackling the affair, starting with exposure, can do that.

Didn't want you to miss this very important fact. Expose her affairs for your kids.

You learn and follow the Marriage Builders plan. That's what you do. That's what I did.

And if you can't stick to the plan you see a doctor about getting some medication to think you help rationally for the duration. That's what I did. It's part of the plan.

***EDIT***

RmrsflChtr16, please start your own thread and introduce yourself and your situation to the community.

Please familiarize yourself with the Marriage Builders concepts before posting on other threads, or refrain from posting.

***EDIT***

RmrsflChtr16, please check your email.