Yes.

IS there just compensation in my case?

I have really struggled with how to apply this concept.

Or do I just need to accept that there is no appropriate or just compensation, and "it is what it is?"

BV

BV,

I think your mountain is a very high one.

AM

Just compensation would be pretty steep

With all those d-days it seems like it is over and done with and maybe time to realize your mate is not mate material

Some people just will not grow up

Thinking about your screename and remembering something from the good book that was shared in a devotional about earthen vessels

As we go through life we do not perfect experiences and we also have wounds that are sometimes not healed

In the bible that is sometime called a broken vessel, with cracks in it, not perfect or holding everything perfectly or completly

As we are filled with the love of God it pours out onto others, yes the love of God can be seen and recognized because we are broken vessels, with cracks in us because we are not perfect and do not have perfect lives

Please stay here and share as you heal, we all need to hear how God will work in your life, as I am sure He will

On the radio show from yesterday, Dr Harley said "resentment leaves when the present is happy." That has been true in my case.

However, I don't know if the present can ever be happy when there have been multiple affairs. I remember the case of Krazy, who walked in on his wife having sex. His resentment was insurmountable no matter what he did - and he and his wife DID actually use this program. So I do believe there are rare situations where the resentment cannot be overcome.

Typically when I see resentment that lingers for years, it is because this program has not been used, though. Most people with lingering resentment REFUSE to use this program.

This is my problem. I haven't been happy since 9/26/10 (DDAy #6 - see signature, below). I was able to regain some happiness after each preceding DDay, but not this last one.

We "did" the MB program (looked at the website, read all the books, counseled with Jennifer, etc.), but husband didn't "get" it. In fact, he NEVER "got" MB, as it is. He THOUGHT he got it, but didn't, and this was a HUGE obstacle to our recovery. However, he "got" "Leadership and Self-Deception," (a book recommendation from a former poster here, who he really connected with), and with this insight, was finally able to apply MB in a real way, beginning late 2010.

Resentment (especially concerning the length of time it took him to get on board, and my own uncertainty and resulting inaction regarding Plan B) is definitely standing in my way of taking the risk to build a marriage. I have the feeling that if I could be compensated, I would gladly accept the compensation and move on.

BUT (coming full circle here), I don't know what I want for compensation.

My husband has said many times that he would like to change the past, but he can't. All he can do is be a better person in the present and future, and that only time will show me that he's able to do this. I just have to decide if I'm going to give him that time.

He's right, of course, and when I was in IC (he came to a few sessions with me), my therapist said this was a healthy attitude.

Still pisses me off to hear it, though.

More resentment.

Struggling.

BV

This is why Aphelion is one of only two on my ignore list. His advice is generally inconsistent with Dr. Harley's, and when I chose to heed Aphelion's counsel, the results were negative in my marriage. But he is very intelligent, and a very effective arguer with logical justifications for his positions. If you accept his premises, his conclusions typically are consistent with them. I choose to reject the premises & ignore the arguments at this point based on the results of experimenting with taking his advice.

Back on-topic, it's really important to never sacrifice to meet ENs. But on the other hand, when you're in the first year of recovery, it is difficult to enthusiastically meet your spouse's needs if you aren't in love with them. So there's "enthusiastic", and there's "indifferent". In both of those cases, as long as you have no NEGATIVE feelings as a result of engaging in the EN, you should meet the EN.

One example is fixing minor things around the house. I'm indifferent to it. Many of them I would just as soon ignore, as they are irrelevant to me. But if I do fix them, I don't experience anger or frustration. Just kind of a bored disinterest. But I know doing so deposits HUGE $LB$ for my spouse. And the alternative to doing them is hiring someone to do it, which requires huge $$ that we don't have So they get done nonetheless.

Chores are often in the same kind of category.

The important thing though, is nobody fell in love with anybody for washing dishes. The four INTIMATE emotional needs are the top priority, always:
1. Intimate Conversation
2. Recreational Companionship
3. Sexual Fulfillment
4. Affection

Spend 15 hours a week meeting THOSE needs. Meet the others in your spare time; many of the other ENs are necessary, but don't require your spouse to be present.

Addressing Mels comment on how most people will choose resentment instead of the program

I think that is true because those people have control of that emotion and it's a stable one, has a reward attachment so to speak and protection

And of course in some cases very warranted and nessesary protection also.

Then we must guard ourselves against resentment becoming our new love also, where we visit it whenever we are lonely

" Vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord", and when you leave ppl alone with themselves as they reap thier circumstances from thier actions, you leave them alone with the God of thier conscience.

As we see people are still human beings and the ground rules of living still apply and God will not be mocked, we realize also the obvious conclusion that we all need God first and another human being second in our lives

It's the obvious conclusion, " How can two walk together unless they be agreed?"

Give God the resentment and let Him handle it, He knows best and is thier answer, and yours

What is just compensation BV

Because my Wife is passed away now, I don't have that question to ponder anymore, but being at the recording end of countless drunken affairs and ONSs , that would be a question I would be pondering if she were still here.

Even her death with all of the craziness that brought it about does not answer my personal issue of why, but that is one I ask of God, and not of her

Then God answers," I warned you that she was damaged, and you insisted you could help her, when I warned you also that she was not really serious about Me either. You chose to be her provision, and you believed the line of crap set up for your own glory"

Yes all the sweet words and promises, and I bought them, as any fool does. I was sold a bill of goods and I bought it. Not wishing to be alone and the promises were to big for her to keep.

Such is the start of many relationships, and I knew that also. I was the practical one who had patience and understanding, and was going to be there till the end. But even to the end I still don't feel compensated

Putting my trust in God for those details of compensation, and waiting on him to understand in myself what I didn't do right, but I must remember that I am only human, and some things are out of my hands.

What I am trying to say BV, is that your husband can provide only the compensation for what he has done, and the questions of why you have been through this might have to come from God

I am still looking for that understanding, and because I believe there is a reason for everything, I expect God to answer my questions and issues. In time I have every confidence he will, and I will continue looking under rocks till then

Bless your journey

My emphasis added � You are exactly right, BV. Meeting ENs, avoiding LB�s, and being faithful is what we (waywards) were supposed to have been doing all along. Turning around and doing all that now is a bit like trying to pour water in a bucket full of holes�when the WS is the one who shot the bucket full of holes to begin with. Following MB is only doing what we *should* have been doing from day one, when we said our marriage vows. Aph said something similar on my thread a while back:



Consider that along with the case of the �typical� WW, who may give JC, but never even apologizes for her actions. (John & Sue story)


I think Mel has hit the nail on the head here: that ��there are rare situations where the resentment cannot be overcome.� Krazy walked in on his WW having sex, and he could not overcome his resentment. Mirrormirror walked in on his wife sitting in the OM�s lap and kissing, and if I remember right she was partially unclothed. They (at least last he checked in) seem to be doing well. I don�t believe the resentment hinges so much on the act itself, because we have seen marriages recover from a very wide range of atrocities. It seems to depend on the individual who has been betrayed. I don�t view that as any fault of the BS, because the resentment wouldn�t exist at all if we hadn�t given our BS something to resent in the first place. Again, back to the fact that this (JC) is what we were supposed to be doing all along�and PROMISED to do. What is possible for one may not be possible for another. Would I resent the person who took the life of my child? Could I forgive them? Some have. Me, I don�t know if it would be possible and hope I never have to find out. And Dr. H has often mentioned that people who have suffered both being the victim of adultery and the death of a child say that being a victim of adultery was more painful.


I wonder�is it still resentment per se, or is it apathy? Has broken gone past his resentment to the point where he just doesn�t care one way or the other? Is there a difference? Is one more �active� vs. the other being more �passive�? Does the distinction even matter? There are less angry outbursts (the last one was a couple months ago via text and while I was the recipient, the object was something that my mother had failed to do). It�s more just being ignored unless he wants me for something. It�s more little, mundane, day-to-day things than any overtly unloving action. I�m not sure that makes sense. Rather than being subjected to unloving actions, it is a lack of loving actions. It is a persistent state of withdrawal that no amount of need-meeting has been able to crack. The withdrawal is not only emotional, it is a literal, physical withdrawal � even though he moved �home,� he spends the majority of his time in the bonus room where he has a computer and TV, doing his own thing. Yet still, I don�t blame him for resenting me. I�d be lying if I said my LB$ wasn�t in the red or that I wasn�t hurting, but if I hadn�t cheated, maybe we could have fixed the problems that existed in our marriage. Now, I�ll never know.

I don�t know what my timeline is. Most days I think, at least once a day, that I can�t do this anymore, but then on the heels of that I�ll take a tentative step to try and nudge him out of withdrawal�a text, an email�last night I asked him if he�d like to go with me on a business trip I�ve got to take next week. Or out of the blue there�s something I take as a positive sign, like last week we actually had the closest thing we�ve had to a real �date� in ages�but, well, I guess you can go out to dinner with someone you don�t really like because, after all, you gotta eat something and maybe you just don�t feel like cooking.


*sigh* I know. I will. My daddy would hate it. Did hate it.

WPG .... looking at this quote made me smile ...

I promise everyone on MB that I have not always been the spouse I promised to be, was supposed to be.
I promise I did not always try my best to make Mr Pep's life with me enjoyabe.
I promise I was downright mean at times.
I was inconsiderate, not attentive, and on rare occasions even cruel.

So there ......

We all must own our individual crappy behavior.

I'm constantly struck by how important a desire to change is in this recovery process. If both spouses are willing to be better, it goes pretty easily. I know mine did, relative to the hellish existence many relate on this board. If one is reluctant, it's a much tougher process but often works.

But then there are the cases where one is reluctant to change and remains reluctant to change indefinitely. I have friends who act that way, and as a Yellow personality (I'm basically a happy person who embraces change and humor as a way of life) I simply cannot wrap my head around a complete unwillingness to try something new to improve my life.

Dear Pepperband:

Thank you for responding.

Answering the questions above, in an easy-to-hard order.

My husband does lots of DS and RC things I really appreciate (and certainly don't want him to stop doing), but they don't fill my love bank. I WISH they did, but they just don't. Also, I am continuously suspicious of his motives, as in the past, he would do "nice" things for me to rationalize his behavior and throw me off track. (And a lot of the time, they were things he wanted to do anyway (especially RC), so it wasn't a big stretch to do them).


My top two ENs are (you may want to sit; this may shock you - okay - ready?) openness and honesty ;-) and admiration. Now, here are my three "stuck areas" in allowing my husband to meet these needs.

Stuck area #1 - Openness and Honesty. I don't know if he can ever meet this need. On the surface, I have "transparency." He (for now) works from home; his work computer is locked down tight by his company; I am the account holder for the phones; I am (much) more computer literate and I am our bookkeeper. Absolutely no unaccounted for time or money. Recreationally, we do everything together. But, COULD he have, for example, a pay-per-use cell I don't know about, or could he go somewhere while I'm at work? Sure. He couldn't devote a whole lot of time to a secret life, but he could have a quiet, little hobby on the side. My personal experience has taught me that if I don't see it with my own eyeballs, it's suspect. Also, is he open and honest with me about his thoughts and feelings? I don't know. He SAYS he is, and I don't have any "evidence" to support that he isn't, but I can never really KNOW. This is a DJ, but I'll say it anyway: I think he is very reluctant to say anything remotely negative to me to 1) avoid conflict and 2) because he doesn't feel he has the "right" (for lack of a better word) to, as he was the one who had the affairs and lied. This makes me worried that the conditions that precipitated the affairs will be re-created.

Stuck area #2 - Admiration. What I would like him to do is compliment me, and this might make a deposit. HOWEVER, the qualities I would like him to compliment (maybe "assure" is better) me about are not qualities he sees/likes in me (PA and conversation). The qualities he DOES appreciate and compliment me about (one particular body part, the one I LEAST like to be admired for; FRUGALITY, of all things; and loyalty (sticking by him through the affairs) are not qualities that make me feel like a wife; they're qualities that make me feel like an employee. If I ask him to compliment me about the other qualities, he would have to refuse or be dishonest. (See #1 EN, O & H, above). And, of course, guess what ENs the OW met? OW #1 - PA; OW #2 - PA and conversation.

Result? Resentment.

Stuck area #3 - Financial Support. My third need would probably be (now) FS. To some degree, I can take care of this myself, but I experienced an economic hit this year that will take me (minimum) three years to recover from. I DO NOT WANT TO HAVE TO WORK TWO JOBS FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE OR HAVE NO CHOICES IN MY LIFE DUE TO LACK OF INCOME. My mother (who lives with us) falls into both categories; my MIL falls into the second. THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE ME. Lots of uppercase words; this is really important to me. My husband has been inconsistenly employed since 2008 and OW #2 was a major reason this happened. His longest stretch was 17 months out.

Result? Resentment. (I should add, though, that I don't blame him for not finding another job. There is no work).

Do I use resentment to punish my husband? It's never my intention, but certainly coud be a result. I'm just having a hard time reconciling that he got everything that he wanted, and I got nothing. That he has forgiven himself for hurting me and has personally "moved on" and I haven't. That his affairs made him (ultimately) a better person while they made me a worse person. That I HELPED HIM become a better person, but he CAN'T help me. That I am alone to deal with this all this resentment, and I can't say anything to him, because it would be "bringing the past into the present," "maing conversation unpleasant," an AO or a DJ. That I am left to my own devices to just "decide" to be happy. That everyone else can make this decision but not me. That I feel like a tantrumming toddler to even list my resentments.

I really pinned my hopes on just compensation, but I can't seem to make it work.

Long, rambling, venting, and hoping I made at least some sense somewhere -

thanks to anyone who had the patience to read this to the end.

BV

BV, do you have your own thread? I couldn't find anything recent and I thought if you started your own thread you could get more specific guidance to your sitch and the struggles you are having in your own recovery. Just a thought.

BV, Your dilemma is above my pay grade.
If you want sound MB advice, I'd go straight to the source.
If not, consider divorce because you sound absolutely miserable !!!

Sorry.

I do agree with Pep, and I see a long road back for you, but you will need someone you can trust your heart to help

I forgiveness possible? Will you be able to forgive Him? But most important is will you be able to trust him with your life?

I am the poster child for doing the wrong thing and if you knew me you would know that. I made the best out of a situation that I got myself into, but I failed at doing what I should have for myself at the right time, and also for my messed up wife

Trying to do it alone was my biggest mistake, and pride got in the way. I wanted to be a knight in shining armor and I bought the whole package as sold to me. I really believed I could help her, but became an enabler

It's the most easiest thing to do and is part, part of love

But it's not the whole picture, and we are afraid of letting go of something that makes is feel so important, so valuable, once we buy into it

As you know, when the honeymoons over, we are left seeing the true person underneath it all. That is when we make the choice to love them even with all the warts and blemishes. Will we stay faithful? It's a personal decision and personal beyond anyones understanding.
We cam become martyred very quickly to a cause and still be afraid to leave, out of pride and fear of losing what we invested in

The resentment will fade as you let go of it as your personal reward for what was done to you. Yes just compensation. Even my wifes death is not compensation enough for me, and I direct those issues to the Man upstairs. But answer is letting it go, which after 20+ years together I still learning of how selfish I am

You have time and years of habits and emotional baggage to deal with. With this site, your mind and free will, and the proper help I know it can happen for you to get better and feel better. Get help and support now, you are worth it

Isn't that what God has been telling us all along?

BV ..... read about PROGRESS when one of the Harleys gets involved.

** LINK ** to SAA thread Read what the BS wrote about his WW's progress once they called in the professionals.

That's what I was afraid of.

Thanks for trying, though!

My last, random thoughts on this thread:




I totally agree.

Infidelity, though, was for me a low and mortal blow. I could come back from many other acts of omission or commission, but (it seems) not this. Anything else, but not this.

I have asked my husband many times if the things I did and didn't do hurt him as much as his infidelity and lying hurt me.

In which case, I would be really, really, really sorry.

He said no.

And I guess that's as much as I can do, otherwise, I'm making a disrespectful judgement.

*Sigh.*




Thank you, ConstantProcess. A lot to think about here. (You took the time to post to my husband a couple of years ago when he was posting here - thanks for that as well).

I think about what you said above often. Do I accept the warts and blemishes of infidelity and lying? If no sin is greater or lesser than another, do I stand by him through future occurrences of infidelity and lying, knowing that this is the way he is imperfect, and that he will always struggle with these imperfections and sometimes fail? Is this only right and just if I expect him to stand by me through depression, withdrawal, angry outbursts and disrespectful judgements, knowing that this is the way I am imperfect and I struggle and sometimes fail?

Does the vow "for better or for worse" mean even if things are really, really worse for me?

(An aside: Previously, I always interpreted this this promise to mean when EXTERNAL events were "worse" - illness, death in the family, unemployment, financial struggles, natural disasters, etc. I never thought about it in terms of the marriage itself being worse).




Are we both equally imperfect and as such, it is neither right or just to ask for or expect compensation? Is the only right and just reward bestowing grace, and is the only right and just response to be thankful? (Can an imperfect person bestow grace? I don't know; I'm getting outside of my realm here).

No answers expected; just wanted to let you know that I think about the points you made quite a bit.

Now that I've taken a sharp turn and sped away from a discussion about MB principles and procedures -

I'm signing off for now; thanks, as always, to all.

BV

My advise:

2 choices ....

1. File for divorce.
2. Call the Harley's for coaching.

Either choice is ethical.
Staying indefinitely where you are miserable is not an equally ethical choice, IMO. (that is MY opinion)

The thing is .... if you go for choice #1, that's that.
If you go for choice #2, that leaves choice #1 still available.

Wanna know a secret?


Know that newer article, "How to Make Your Wife Happy?"


That was my script.


My final flame-out was about me realizing how much resentment I had willingly built... because "If momma ain't happy..."


I had built a crap sundae, and infidelity was the turd topping... and I was tired of eating it.



The final truth is this, resentment doesn't just punish my wife, it is self-punishment. It is self abuse.

Resolve it, refuse it.


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand.... I'm out of gas. 32 hours in 2 days and another 8 today.