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�
Note that a wife's need, or desire, for SF can be low, or as the above quote puts it �remote�, but she must still meet her H�s EN for SF anyway - whether she wants to enthusiastically or not (see letter # 2 in particular). No he doesn't. Even though my H's top need is SF, I can enthusiastically meet that need because one of my top needs is affection. This way, both of our needs get met. When a couple is in love, they have no problem meeting each others needs. What Harley does tell people is that it is important to avoid sacrifice because pretty soon people stop doing what they don't enjoy. So the goal is to make having sex enjoyable. When a couple has a bad relationship, I do not begin by encouraging more sex. First I fix the relationship, and nine times out of ten, sexual problems disappear, with or without unresolved childhood experiences. I spend very little time fixing sexual problems these days because most couples I counsel don't have sexual problems after they have learned to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. This takes us back to the original starting post of this thread. The subject BH is not getting his EN for SF met nor in the way he wants it met. He probably, I would bet Homer Simpson a donut on it, often believes this is because his WW still wants, fantasizes about or otherwise remembers OM. Yes, even ten years later. The "way he wants it met" misses the point. In order to have a successful fulfilling sex life, it must be done in a way THEY BOTH WANT IT. Let's say he wants oral sex and she hates it. The solution is to NEVER have OS, of course. It is to find a way they both like. But this is all stuff you know since you have been here almost as many years as me.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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� The subject BH is not getting his EN for SF met nor in the way he wants it met. . Because he never asked for it to be met. Accusing a FWW of wanting to sleep with a man at the next table is in no way akin to asking for your SF need to be met. If I accused the grocery store man of being a thief, I won't get any groceries, will I? It isn't logical.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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SF is my #1 EN, and I can say that when I don't get it it has a dramatic affect on my ability to engage with my spouse.
Everyone has a most important EN, I am not suggesting SF is more important than any other EN's, but it is 'different' in the fact that it can ONLY be given by your spouse, nobody else.
I see many situations where SF is NOT given. Because, as you say, it is an intimate need and needs to be enthusiastically given, and understandably it becomes even more difficult to be enthusiastically given during an A situation. So it becomes OK to not provide that need, unless you are mentally enthusiastic about it?
In my thread I talk about domestic support as a high need for my H. And how much I hate doing it. I'm not lazy I would just much rather be in the barn pitching manure than vacuuming. But I have succumbed to (attempting) to clean for 4 hrs/day to keep a house that is in line with filling my H's most important EN. I am not 'enthusiastic' about it in any sense, I simply do it because I have to in order to fill his needs.
Yet I should only get SF when he is 'enthusiastic' about it?
I am not arguing your general point here. I just feel a little like your comment is discounting the need of SF and suggesting that it should ONLY be filled when your partner is as into it as you are. That could be a recipe for disaster for many folks.
I agree with you that it cannot be 'angrily demanded' but I believe it should not be any less 'expected' as an asset of recovery than any other need, if not more, given the fact that it is again a need that ONLY your spouse can meet. I hear you, as its a need that's in my top three and was very low for my H. I have demanded SF from my H in the past. He even 'succumbed' to keep me happy. Do you think that helped meet my need in a way that made me feel sexy and desirable? Nope. There's a difference between saying. "This is what I need. What do you need in order to BECOME enthusiastic? What can we do about this?" Not demanding with the threat of tears, sulks or unpleasantness. In no way am I suggesting that people put up and shut up. And I do think the reluctant-to-meet the need spouse should be willing to talk, try and discuss. A big bugbear for me was his refusal to see a Dr about his sex drive. That is something he could easily have done to demonstrate a willingness to ACHIEVE enthusiasm. Sometimes I want to feel sexy and desirable and so you are right that would not really meet that need. But sometimes I just want to get some. In which case, I don't really care if I feel sexy and desirable. Now I have already in my own sitch been working with my H to find out what I can do to HELP him want SF more, such as, clean 4 hrs/day! Lol. Not that I can necessarily complain, but more is better:) However, I think some of it, as you mentioned, comes strictly down to a hormonal drive. Yes there are things a spouse can do to find out why their drive is low, but there are some people where that is not going to change. In that case, they may have to 'just do it.' Right?
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� The subject BH is not getting his EN for SF met nor in the way he wants it met. . Because he never asked for it to be met. Accusing a FWW of wanting to sleep with a man at the next table is in no way akin to asking for your SF need to be met. If I accused the grocery store man of being a thief, I won't get any groceries, will I? It isn't logical. Well actually, I don't believe the letter gives us that information. Perhaps he does ask for it and his WW is just unwilling to meet that need. Which over time has caused his built up resentment and constant internal comparisons to the OM. The problem with reacting to a letter like this, is that it is probably 1/10th of the story in total. Although I understand the Harley's must advise on the information they are presented, nothing more.
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Unwritten it sounds like you are both sacrificing for the other.
Tit for tat, taking turns to be happy instead of being happy together, is what renters do.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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� The subject BH is not getting his EN for SF met nor in the way he wants it met. . Because he never asked for it to be met. Accusing a FWW of wanting to sleep with a man at the next table is in no way akin to asking for your SF need to be met. If I accused the grocery store man of being a thief, I won't get any groceries, will I? It isn't logical. Well actually, I don't believe the letter gives us that information. Perhaps he does ask for it and his WW is just unwilling to meet that need. Which over time has caused his built up resentment and constant internal comparisons to the OM.. The full version of the letter does include an accusation of the wife enjoying the man at next table looking at her. In no way is that a thoughtful request for SF! In what logical world will that work? And I don't see why resentment building up over the years could possibly be an excuse for AO. AOs are the individiual's responsibilty. If you are unhappy, resolve or leave. Don't try to force your spouse using anger.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Sometimes I want to feel sexy and desirable and so you are right that would not really meet that need. But sometimes I just want to get some. In which case, I don't really care if I feel sexy and desirable. I would take the time to do it right. MB isn't about settling for crumbs. Find out what is needed to create enthusiasm. There is a problem here being swept under the rug.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Why is it you think cleaning will make him want sex?
Does having sex make you want to clean?
Or do you think you are both supposed to be unhappy while doing things as long as you get a reward?
Puzzled.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Just read the title and decided to comment without reading the content, so hope I am not stepping on anyones toes
The resentment issue, how it can eat us all up inside.
Dr Harley has explained the time allowed on the norm for the memory to heal from past wrongs done to both sexes, the male counterpart understood to be longer, from both the chemical makeup and natural makeup disregarding the details, which to most men, are just excuses.
But what really counts is the ability for forgiveness, to which I quote the saying, "To err is human, to forgive is divine"
There is a limit we as humans must understand as to our part in the marriage vows, and then transfer our spouse over to the divine, of which we are not.
So living and hurting with resentment is just a waste of effort, for other forces are better prepared for instruction, and also do a better job of it than we do
"Vengence is mine" is also an instruction, so let them have it, as circumstances will reveal the truth
Me 56 Former BS Widowed 5-17-09 --married 25 years. 4 children DS-35 previous marriage--18-22 DGrandSons 6 and 4 Me former BS DD-29 with DGDs 5 and 1yr DSs 26 and 23 Teilhard de Chardin..“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.” ...Sounds about right to me.
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[
In my thread I talk about domestic support as a high need for my H. And how much I hate doing it. I'm not lazy I would just much rather be in the barn pitching manure than vacuuming. But I have succumbed to (attempting) to clean for 4 hrs/day to keep a house that is in line with filling my H's most important EN. I am not 'enthusiastic' about it in any sense, I simply do it because I have to in order to fill his needs. unwritten, then you should not meet his need in that way. Making sacrifices is what leads to resentment and creates incompatibility. You should find another way to meet his need about which you are both enthusiastic. For example, you might hire a cleaning lady, teenager or buy a roomba. But you should meet his needs in a way that makes you both happy. What you should not do is make sacrifices that benefit only him.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Just read the title and decided to comment without reading the content, so hope I am not stepping on anyones toes
The resentment issue, how it can eat us all up inside.
Dr Harley has explained the time allowed on the norm for the memory to heal from past wrongs done to both sexes, the male counterpart understood to be longer, from both the chemical makeup and natural makeup disregarding the details, which to most men, are just excuses.
But what really counts is the ability for forgiveness, to which I quote the saying, "To err is human, to forgive is divine"
There is a limit we as humans must understand as to our part in the marriage vows, and then transfer our spouse over to the divine, of which we are not.
So living and hurting with resentment is just a waste of effort, for other forces are better prepared for instruction, and also do a better job of it than we do
"Vengence is mine" is also an instruction, so let them have it, as circumstances will reveal the truth Not really understanding this part. Do you have a link to where Dr. Harley talks about this?
Last edited by Hopeful_Hubby; 07/18/12 07:52 PM.
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Now I have already in my own sitch been working with my H to find out what I can do to HELP him want SF more, such as, clean 4 hrs/day! Lol. unwritten, that is not likely to motivate him to want sex. First off it is not an intimate emotional need and it would do nothing to visually stimulate him. Have you asked him what it would take to motivate him? Has he had his testosterone checked? Yes there are things a spouse can do to find out why their drive is low, but there are some people where that is not going to change. In that case, they may have to 'just do it.' Right? Just doing it when you find sex unpleasant is how full boat aversions are created.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[quote=ConstantProcess]The resentment issue, how it can eat us all up inside.
Dr Harley has explained the time allowed on the norm for the memory to heal from past wrongs done to both sexes, the male counterpart understood to be longer, from both the chemical makeup and natural makeup disregarding the details, which to most men, are just excuses.
Not really understanding this part. Do you have a link to where Dr. Harley talks about this? Dr H makes a joke (sort of, I think) in an article about resentment where he says that women have better memories than men, and so are capable for resenting for longer. Poor men! (Something like that.) I'll look for it, but Brainy will probably find it first.
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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[quote=ConstantProcess]The resentment issue, how it can eat us all up inside.
Dr Harley has explained the time allowed on the norm for the memory to heal from past wrongs done to both sexes, the male counterpart understood to be longer, from both the chemical makeup and natural makeup disregarding the details, which to most men, are just excuses.
Not really understanding this part. Do you have a link to where Dr. Harley talks about this? Dr H makes a joke (sort of, I think) in an article about resentment where he says that women have better memories than men, and so are capable for resenting for longer. Poor men! (Something like that.) I'll look for it, but Brainy will probably find it first. Okay gotcha. I buy that, because memories are typically formed from a strong emotional connection, and since women are typically more emotionally oriented than men, most women do have stronger long-term memories.
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"Some people are better at remembering than others I read recently that estrogen replacement significantly improves memory in women. Great! That's all I need. A wife that can do an even better job remembering everything I've ever done to offend her. It's true that the better your memory, the more difficult it will be to overcome resentment. That's because resentment is tied to memories, and if you forget the painful event, the resentment is lost along with it." Coping With infidelity: Resentment
BW
Married 1989
His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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Gods, I�ms goings to regrets this. But you asked.
�What she describes to me in her letter is abuse, pure and simple.�
Agree, it is a type of abuse. But is it more or less abuse than the original adultery? Is abuse relative? Of course it is. All things are relative. (Relatively speaking.)
So, the BH still uses the adultery 10 years later to force an occasional argument. Maybe the adulterous wife should not argue in the first place. Maybe it is not all that often he brings it up. The original letter sounds to me like the WW still wishes it would all just go away: H, I demand you pretend it never happened. She definitely sounds like that kind of caught WW to me.
There are a dozen posters here on MB that would say to this BH if he posed this same story from his perspective that the BH is still not getting his ENs met. They would be all over this WW about how she is obviously still not giving the BH something he needs to recover.
And of course there are posters here who would demand this WW issue the same ultimatum recommended by Dr H (and it is indeed an ultimatum, which elsewhere he says never to do � oh well) and then D.
My, MB is a big tent, isn�t it. What if the correct answer is to do both? Those 2 suggestions don't contradict, as you attempt to imply, but complement. The tent is even big enough to include those who want to pettifog the issue without the use of linear logic.  For example, if a BH is resentful after 10 years, the reason is the marriage never recovered. It could be for many reasons, and all those need to be examined. Someone who has not recovered in 10 years is typically too lazy to use the program and too lazy to do as Harley suggests and get out. When I see a bitter, resentful BH on this forum years after the affair I know he did not follow this program. So I would start off by asking lots of questions to pinpoint the problem. And of course the WW would want her H to stop bringing it up. Who WANTS to be perpetually reminded of their past crimes? Doing so just erodes in the love in the marriage so it hurts the BH just as much. AND... guess what ..? I would tell the BH to stop bringing it up. The fact that the adultery is abuse is irrelevant to the issue because it is in the past. We need to deal with the present. So, this poster would say BOTH. How do ya like them apples?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Yeah no time like the present.
In time once the EPs are in place things will improve
My issue was that it was over the first time, and EPs were not in place and I lived the death of 1000 cuts
No medals for that either, just a dunce cap
But still there is forgiveness, and it is sweet all round
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[quote=ConstantProcess]The resentment issue, how it can eat us all up inside.
Dr Harley has explained the time allowed on the norm for the memory to heal from past wrongs done to both sexes, the male counterpart understood to be longer, from both the chemical makeup and natural makeup disregarding the details, which to most men, are just excuses.
Not really understanding this part. Do you have a link to where Dr. Harley talks about this? Dr H makes a joke (sort of, I think) in an article about resentment where he says that women have better memories than men, and so are capable for resenting for longer. Poor men! (Something like that.) I'll look for it, but Brainy will probably find it first. You found it first Sugar. I'm not on my A game ***Edit**
Last edited by JustUss; 07/18/12 11:27 PM. Reason: tmi
FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.
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Yeah maybe I got it wrong, because I know women have better long term memories, being ussually the victims
It's probably the pain that effects them being that long term
Oh of course I am kidding, women only feel pain?
Lol well that is another subject of course but men feel pain also, just not expressed the same in the type of ways
At least when I was growing up, we weren't supposed to whine and were supposed to shut up and take it
Not saying there are not and were not strong women who bore emotional pain also, or men who complained loudly for nothing
What I remember was that somewhere men were not as forgiving naturally as women, and I appear to be wrong on that front also, please forgive me if I misquoted or misrepresented Dr. H
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Indiegirl and Melodylane,
For the responses that were directed at me, I have replied to them on my own thread so as not to t/j. If you care to weigh in I would appreciate your insight, thanks.
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