I am posting here because the anger my wife has towards me is similar to what I imagine she would have if I had had an affair. There have been no affairs on my side and I' pretty sure not on her side either.

My wife wants to divorce and I do not, we are still living in the same house but sleeping separate. I am feeling a lot of hurt and pain and would like to come up with a plan to fix things, she wants no part of it.

Here is our story:

My wife and I have been together for 30 years. We been through a lot together, including her being gang raped at gun point with me there. We have 2 great children together. Have been separated 2x, for 6 mo's each time many years ago. Both times we got back together without addressing our issues.

To make a long story short, our relationship has never been that good. I have also felt like I was not adequately supported for most of our marriage. There have been a lot of good times, but we never learned how to support each other, despite going to counselling 4x.

She told me in the summer that she wants out. She calls it a midlife crisis, wants a fresh start, is not in love with me anymore, can't forgive me for all the mean and controlling things I have said, wants someone who is nice to her, cant be herself around me, says that I hate everything about her and would be happier with someone else. She does not want to work on the relationship. She has been clinically depressed for 14 years (since her father died), and now tells me that the cause of her depression is me, once she leaves me, she will be happy. She has issues with shopaholism and binge eating/ purging. 3 of her friends have separated or divorced and are telling her how much happier they are now. They are on their 2nd and 3rd marriages now. She thinks that if she had left me a few years ago she would be much happier too now.

I spent 2 months begging, pleading, arguing, convincing. Sometimes it seemed to help, but ultimately drove her to the point of avoiding me and putting deadlines on when I should move out by. I did a massive internet and soul searching exercise.

I spent the last 2 months started to try reconnecting by stopping arguing etc, and making self improvements. Huge change, she started reciprocating, being nice and friendly, stopped talking about when I need to move out by and stopped threatening divorce. My daughter also had an emotional breakdown about her wanting to divorce me that I think had a big impact on my wife.

I plan to stay the course of using intimacy to continue to build the love back until love returns. Problem is I feel stalled, things are steady or going back slightly, she is returning to wanting to not be around me as much and leaving me with very little chance for interaction. Main problem now is she is still harbouring a huge resentment for all the things I have done to hurt her, which she bringa up every week or two. She has a list so long I don't remember many of them. Most of her hurts were during an argument, not intentional or meant to hurt her, but she took them that way. I have apologized many times over for the same hurts. There has never been physical abuse, substance abuse, violence or even much name calling etc.

She is already telling me she cant forgive me, so me telling her to either forgive me or not likely result in her saying "I cant forgive you, so lets end this".

After coming upon this site I thought getting counselling here by phone would be a great way to resolve her deep resentment and finally resolve our maritial issues. Many of the problems discussed on the site are present in our relationship. She also seems to be genuinely nice to me and trying now. I discussed the idea with her. She told me she does not want to do it. I managed to get her to warm up to the idea by saying that it is not successful for everyone, and any skills we learned would help both of us in future relationships if we do divorce. I think she is afraid that she will change her mind and things will get better, but only temporarily, and she is determined to follow through with her decision to divorce. I think if she saw what we had to commit to, she would not do it. I left it with I will send you the link, but I don't think I should unless she is ready to work on the relationship.

She works at a place where she is constantly serving customers and being flirted with. She loves her job and just recently started full time there. She has already told me her plan is to date one of them if they catch her eye, and she does not wan't me visiting her there. She says we should just be friends. I feel like I am sitting on a ticking time bomb...

Any suggestions?

How are you pretty sure? Have you snooped?
The reason I ask is because your wife is sending up several red flags by the things she is doing and saying.

These are all signs of a woman in an affair. You need to snoop. It's possible she isn't having one yet, but even if she isn't, she is very vulnerable to having one.

You need to rule out an affair first, because your next course of action depends heavily on whether or not she is having one.

I agree. You need to snoop.

Can you check her phone?

I spent first 4 weeks absolutely convinced it was an affair. She is pretty sneaky, history of lying to me, but about small stuff (I think!). I think she is very good at covering tracks. This is what I did:

- looked at her phone record history, no recurring #'s or long calls, most I could pinpoint, a few unidentified, but not recurring
- she has not lapses in time, although she could have easily prior to the dear John moment
- she swears no, and there havn't been unexplained absenses
- she said she was entertaining making up a fake affair to get me to stop trying so hard.
- her best friend says no
- my friend who frequents her workplace has asked around and heard of nothing
- looked at texts and email, nothing found (but she could easily delete these)

I have had unexpected access to her phone a couple of times and found nothing.

Pole,

Has she ever said "I love you but am not in love with you" ? Or some variation on that phrase?

God Bless
Gamma

That is exactly what she told me.

That's a red flag of an affair.

Does she have any OS friendships? Any man she talks about alot?

She talks about a few guys a lot, but most are 20 years older than her, more like fathers than partners. She is pretty mum about the men closer to her age who come in and flirt. Even her friends can't understand who she would try to date at work. She gets very friendly with a lot of her customers, telling some of them "everything" as she puts it. Small town, so word would spread pretty quickly if she started something. A lot of people know me and her through both of our jobs.

I think she is more interested in the fantasy/ idea than having actually done something after I uncovered nothing.

I'm convinced there is no affair, although an EA would not surprise me. If there was something I think it is on hold now or an EA during work hours. Even that should surface with the gossip and knowing everyone in this small town. The other red flag for me was that she wanted me out fast and in the worst way originally, first in 4 wks, then 6, then 10, and now no talk of wnen.

Is there anything else I could do to find out?

Any suggestions if there is no affair?

Thanks

Well first you need to rule out that she isn't having an affair.

If there isn't an affair, then you eliminate all your love busters and meet her ENs.

What are her complaints about you?

I'm not sure how to rule out an affair...

Her complaints are that I'm critical, controlling, and don't like her.

She has in the last month kept saying "if only you would have done this 2 years ago..." when I am supportive of her. Also says "If I could (bring back the love), I would, but I can't. Bringing up trying again and suggesting that this method is much more effective than what we had been trying did not work..

Pole,

You wrote, That is exactly what she told me.

The thing is that it is so very common, almost 100%, for the "I love you but am not in love you" to indicate at least an EA. An EA btw is just a PA waiting for an opportunity since the WW is already in love.

And again almost 100% when a WW wants their husband gone quickly it's because she wants to move in an OM or in some cases an OW.

Most posters cannot believe their spouse is in an affair initially, and waste time denying when they should be snooping.

I think from your description of your WW she works at a restaurant it could be the owner, someone who knows how to be discrete, or the kitchen staff. Don't discount the older men either, they've had years to hone their seductive skills.

Can you hire a PI to track your WW? You might also want to put a voice activated recorder in her vehicle.

God Bless
Gamma

I would look for an affair phone and place a VAR in her car. That might get you some intel. Nothing you said here convinces me she is not in an affair.

x2.

OK, I think I know now. Went out with a buddy and his good friend who I think is the OM/EA. It makes sense now, especially the timing. WW mentioned he is very good looking and she tells him everything a few weeks back. This is what I have:

- a couple of years ago OM divorced his W to be with OW. This co-incides with a crisis in our M. I had a gut instinct that I never had before that she was having an affair. Things have been going downhill between us ever since.

- OM is a lot like me in looks and demeanor (a soft spoken, easy going nice guy), but more of a womanizer, always on the lookout, does not want to commit to his current GF. I overheard W saying about the same time if she were single she would take home guys she meets at work when she needs sex and not get into a long term relationship

- OM and OMGF are having problems, she wants commitment, he does not (I met her last nite too). Which con-incides with W wanting out fast. OM has since been on and off with OMGF, which might explain W's easing up on seperation and divorce.

- W a few weeks ago said I should hookup with OMGF, since she was looking for another OM.

- W knew who I was going out with and texted, emailed and called me while I was out with them. She has had almost 0 contact with me this way in past 2 mos.

- W was still awake when I came home and asked if I had fun. This was 3 hrs past when she normally is fast asleep after getting up early for work.

She sees this guy almost daily and has for years at work (cafe). He is very personable and says he does not think or know of my wife having an PA, but would and will tell me if he finds anything out. My wife is not very communicative, so I'm not sure if OM knows of her ambitions, but I think OM is meeting her EN. I also think there are several others who are meeting her EN's at work, from firsthand experience seeing her at work, and seeing the occasional email to one of them.

My other buddy who knows us both, says there is no way OM is having PA with W, he has no interest and would not do that, they frequent the nite clubs together chasing women.

W is having a staff party next weekend, she does not want me there (she cant "be herself" with me there). But OM and OMGF will be there.

Maybe I'm reading too much into too little though, pretty sketchy...

I don't understand what this means. You went out on a DATE with another woman?

No date, I went for a night out with a few friends to a bar. OM and OMGF were there with me and 3 other guys.

Well you definitely have enough red flags towards an EA.

What route can you go to prove or disprove an affair? Hire a PI?

And you definitely need to attend that staff party with your wife.

A non-WW would never suggest her husband hookup with another woman. That's asking "permission". She is wayward.

And quite frankly, your " friends" wouldn't tell you the truth. Your friends are an ex WH, OW, and a womanizer, by your account. It would be no surprise.

OK, I am suspicious again. If its an EA, which I think is more likely than a PA, how would it be handled? Would you still confront and expose it? It could easily be rationalized with the excuse of "we're just friends". What sort of calls do people having EA's make? What does an EA look like

Best would be to have a stealth phone app, but the thought of doing that sickens me, and it wouldn't catch an "affair phone".

VAR in car is good idea, easy to do.

Any ideas on where to begin looking for an affair phone?

Look for it in her vehicle, and her purse.

Have you seen these?
What is an Affair?
Are "Friends" a Threat to Your Marriage?

Thanks, the friends one has a lot of parallels to my situation.

Spending 15 hours per week together would be near impossible right now, she is unwilling and would probably feel smothered. She submerses herself in the internet at home and is pretty limited in her communication time to both myself and our children.

She won't want to spend anytime at all as long as she's in an affair. Your priority is to find, expose and kill the affair.

You might want to start documenting all the time that she's internet/gaming and not taking care of your kids.

Here DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT

When will you be doing this?

Put a keylogger on the computer too.

I have been thinking about this all night. The problem is I believe all of her EN' are being met on the job during work hours. Spying wont and hasn't turned much up so far. There are many times when she is alone with individual (OM) in the shop for extended periods of time. This is why she is now "uncomfortable" with me visiting her there and "cant be herself" when I'm there.

Her EN's weren't being met by me, so she has always had a second life. I always wanted more emotionally from her and felt like I was living in an emotional desert. All my attempts to get her to do more with me and talk to me more were taken by her as me being controlling and jealous. Anytime we had a common goal, moving, kids, reno's etc, things were good because it brought us together.

She came from a nasty divorced family when she was 13, and I have always felt she held back from intimacy with me for fear of being hurt. I was her rock, steady, calm and patient for many years.

My EN's were not being met either, and I did for a while look outside the marriage for that, I think I was trying to have an an EA as well, but then stopped and concentrated on getting my EN's met with my children and brothers for the past few years. All my attempts to get closer to my wife have been rejected in the past 2 years, she has been critical and rejecting of even doing things which should have built love between us.

I think she has several people she confides in and shares intimacy with, and now has fallen in love with at least one of them and is trying to move that relationship forward.

Anything I suggest about us working things out gets met with automatic rejection from her and causes her great anguish.

Because I'm pretty sure of who the OM is and am friends with his friend, I am in situation of being able to try things from both sides of the EA.

I think trying to expose it cause WW, OM, and everyone else chalking it up to a jealous H. It would only re-inforce WW's opinion that I am jealous and controlling and she needs to get away from me.

Right now my plan is to work on making deposits as long as she is willing. She is much more responsive/ reciprocates and nice to me when I do that most of the time now, but then gets stalled and I worry. I am trying to move the relationship back to where her love for me returns and she is willing to try again.

My urge is to try to explain what I think is happening to WW. But I think it would not work and would drive her further away instead.

I don't know how to tackle this from the OM end. He seems like a nice and reasonable guy, with more than one iron in the fire. Anything I tell him may get back to WW. He has been going to Mexico in past years for months this time of year because of his type of work, I don't think he is doing that this year. Having him out of the picture would be my best bet to give me time to reconnect with WW.

Pole, your plan is not strategic and will not save your marriage. First off, you can make only a minimal impact on her love bank as long as she is having an affair because her love bank is closed to you. All the need meeting in the world will not compensate for an ongoing affair. Her love bank is closed to you as long as she is in an active affair.

The affair is the Titanic and the ship is sinking. It will continue to sink until you stop the affair. All the window dressing in the world will not stop that. You cannot "play nice" your way out of an affair.

Your plan should be to get the evidence of the affair and then expose it. Put a key logger on her computer, VAR in her car and do everything you can to get some hard evidence. If you won't do that, then I think you should prepare for divorce, because your marriage is doomed.

You need to get moving because the longer you dawdle, the harder it will be to save your marriage. The longer this goes on, the more entrenched the affair.

Please listen!

We are not ignorant as to how workplace affairs transpire. We realize that OM and your WW will talk while at work. That doesn't matter.

What you don't realize is that most affairees become so addicted to the OP, that they want constant contact. You may even catch your WW talking to someone ELSE about OM.

OK, thanks for all the advice. I'm pretty naive about all this, never thought she would do this to me, to say the things she has said to me, I still feel very betrayed and shocked, in denial its happening to me. This is the most painfull thing I have ever had to deal with, worse than her gang rape.

VAR in car coming. Uses tablet, I had password until recently changed. She's pretty guarded about her cell, had password last week, she may have changed it again (that would be a dicy midnight tiptoe operation). Searched for affair phone, none found.

We had a very open and good talk today about our issues and how we got to where we are. Feels like best place we have been in 4 mo's, making future plans together, but no commitments or I love you etc. She was actually much more open and constructive than any other talks in past 4 mos. But we have been close to this state before several times in past months and I have been lulled into thinking reconciliation is just around the corner, only to have her tell me she hates me, cant stand sight of me, can't let go of the anger, has no feelings for me, doesn't love me anymore, her depression is because of me etc. a few days later. I'm getting gun shy, but at least I will sleep tonight! 5 hours sleep a night for 4 mo's isn't cutting it. Its been a hell of a rollercoaster ride!

***EDIT***

I'm going out of town for a few days now, I am real curious if things will be better (miss me?) or worse (more time with OM?) when I come back. Its been the latter for past 4 months, but used to be the opposite.

She won't miss you because she will be more free to carry on her affair while you are gone. Traveling out of town ENHANCES the emotional detachment in your marriage. Why are you going out of town??

I think we have completely different goals, Pole. Your goal is to get her to be nice to you. Our goal is to save your marriage. You seem to think that the Titanic is not sinking when she is nice to you. That is a dangerous illusion that will distract you from saving your marriage.

Thanks,
Going out of town to arrange funeral services for my dad, who is probably not going to be here a year from now. I also need to do something for myself, visit friends for support. I'm emotionally drained from rejection. I know she still has a lot of feelings for me and is trying hard to deny them, this will create some uncertainty about who I am with and what I am doing. Most of our gains have been triggered by her insecurities about me going out without her or the kids.

Saving marriage is my goal, but I don't know if I can pull off snooping without her catching me doing it. I also suspect the evidence will be tenuous, I don't think I will see a lot of very intimate evidence that would indicate an obvious EA that I can expose.

Without some compelling evidence of an EA I don't think the big stick approach will work, even then she might just side with OM and try to end it with me (which has been her goal all along). She has told me several times that she needs space, wants a fresh start, too much water under the bridge, it will be easier to find someone new than fix this relationship, maybe she does not wan't me, she want's to be with someone different, she is biding her time in this relationship etc. It has only been through my shear determination and reluctance to let go that I have changed it from "you need to move out in 4 weeks" and "I'm very sorry, but I'm filing for divorce", to telling me that spending time with our son is more important than finishing the renos (before I move out), and not mentioning divorce or moving out at all.

My plan up to now was to have her reconnect enough to wan't to go back for counselling, this time with a more specialized program for our situation.

The only way I have gotten to this point is by trying to reconnect with her by stopping arguing, etc. I think she is realizing that divorcing will be more difficult than she thought.

Sad part is, I initiated this process several years ago in counselling by saying "I want a divorce". We never acted on it, and I told her several times after that that I don't want a divorce, telling her that it was a mistake to say that. She has been hatching a plan ever since, so resolving some of the underlying relationship issues is what needs to happen, and yesterday we had a good talk about our issues. She is responding with more affection right now.

As long as things are improving I feel good about our future, it worries me that she might be manipulating me though.

I hardly know where to start with this, you are so off track. How do you think you compete with another man who is flowering her with attention, while you try to "trigger insecurities" and make her wonder who you are with? Who do you think will be more attractive to a woman? I promise you it won't be you. Surely you can see your strategy is not working?


You have no idea what the evidence is until you see it. Idle speculation will not save your marriage.


This is why you need to get the evidence. Nothing can move forward until you do this.

Women want a man who will fight for them and show great care. A man who tries focuses on making her "insecure" will always look bad, especially when there is a new point of comparison who makes her feel great.

If you want to make this work, you need to get snooping and get off your butt and start COMPETING FOR YOUR WIFE.


This is all the language of someone who has found someone new. And you PALE in comparison.


That is a losing plan. Marriage counselors have an 84% FAILURE rate and have not the slightest idea how to save a marriage.


Stopping the arguments is a good first step, but it won't bring her back into the marriage. You have to do much better than that. Do you think she is atracted to another man just because he "doesn't argue" with her? You need to wake up and realize you are in a competition.


She has just been waiting around for a BETTER OPTION to come along since you broke her heart. HE HAS ARRIVED from the sounds of it.

Thanks,
What I didn't mention is that along with me stopping "love busters" I told her I don't want to force her to stay in an unhappy marriage, I want her to be happy (that was the turning point). I have been using agreement and empathy to get get her to relax, open up and start talking to me again. I am doing many things she has wanted for years and she is very grateful and happier, but also angry that it took the threat of D to get to here. Worked very well for a while, then stalled.

My focus isn't to make her insecure, but to remove some of the security she has always had being with me, so she looses the comfort of knowing that I will always be there if she needs me to fall back on. She needs to know that I can make it without her.

By doing these things I thought I was competing for my wife. How do I compete for my wive without driving her away? In her mind we should just be friends right now.

BTW I do plan to start snooping more.

"That is a losing plan. Marriage counselors have an 84% FAILURE rate and have not the slightest idea how to save a marriage."

That has been my experience too, however I was impressed by the marriagebuilders coaching center/ counselor and had planned to suggest using them.

You guys have such horrible marital habits, it is no wonder this marriage is ready to flat line. Her words are "I've got something better elsewhere" and your words and actions say "I care, but not very much". Your plan is the opinion of a person in a terrible marriage, why take your own advice? Dr. Harley has saved many marriages and he advises the opposite of most of your plan.

She needs to know that you can be a great husband. That is what you should working very hard on right now. If she is having an affair, she already has your replacement lined up and is deep in a fog.

That is a relief. They have a program that does work.

What about hiring a PI?

Do not play mind games where you try to show her you can live without her. That won't make a lick of difference. Focus on how the Love Bank works.

When???


These are all signs that she is having an affair. I would quit dragging your feet and get snooping.

OK, did snooping. Recorder in vehicle, tablet, phone, text messages, facebook, call logs, found nothing, even in all deleted texts going back to Bomb drop day. I still think she is emotionally attached to a customer at work right now.

Things are slowly getting better, the week I went away I texted her and and kids that I missed them, she initiated texting the next day, and she was very happy to see me when I returned.

She is up and down, weekends are good, she wants to spend time with me it feels like we are connecting well.

Weekdays Mon-Thurs good, by friday she starts to withdraw.


Her love bank seems to be opening up, more and better hugs and more talking about the relationship is starting to happen slowly.

Question, how do I proceed? Try to meet her emotional needs and do and be attractive? If I try too hard I fear I will push her away again, even without any love busters. Right now she seems to be happy, and much more receptive to spending time together. But she told me "its not real" (how well we are getting along and connecting a couple of days ago. How do I know if I am trying too hard?

Also, I think she may figure out I have been snooping because of icloud password. Any suggestions on how to handle this if she asks?


Thanks

Until that emotional affair ends, you are wasting your time with all your other efforts. You need to expose the affair. She may need to leave that job if she can not never deal with that customer.

Wife says the suspected OM is "not her type", which I know is a lie. OM's GF is apparently one who is calling shots in their relationship, which is on and off again. Suspected OM is apparently madly in love with his GF. He will be going away for 2 wks soon to get away and think about his relationship. I will be gauging my Wifes reaction. Problem is there is no evidence, suspected OM is a friend of a friend who is feeding him/ me info about Wife. Both my friend and suspected OM say neither of them knows or is having PA. Suspected OM thinks she is "moving on".

I have planted the seed of moving (far) away with kids and wife, kids are excited at prospect, wife is not saying much, not agreeing nor disagreeing. I don't think she will go for it right now if I push it.

I have no way to expose an EA, it may be one sided or "Limerance". Wife is pretty private as I found out by snooping.

My plan right now is to build the love bank until she is more receptive to working on relationship. Because I have no evidence, I will look like a jealous controlling husband if I confront her. I have mentioned to her that I suspect she is having her EN's met at work and could be in an EA, she neither confirmed or denied it.

Since she already told me she want's a D and has not changed her mind about that, its the only option that makes sense right now. That is the recommended route by several others on the internet specializing in reconciling. As long as its moving in the right direction, I am hopeful I can get her reconnected enough to try again.

After scrutinizing her tablet bookmarks, I did find some disturbing ones:

***EDIT***

I think they are recent, I only have her texts to Mid Nov right now (which are clean including the deleted ones). I need to get into her phone to update the icloud password & backup, but she has changed it. She did freely give me her tablet one last week when I made an excuse to use it.

She did get very squeamish late Nov about her phone, but entered her password in front of me yesterday (which I didn't catch).

Things are actually going much better, may sound weird, but she picked at my face for about 10min yesterday. We also did some shopping together, dinner and movie with kids etc.

I'm dying to see her deleted texts from the past month. What would be best way to get in?

The talblet bookmarks were "I am helplessly in love with a married man" (as in affair), and "100 top sexting examples"


This is what I think I need to do:

What to Do with an Unfaithful Wife
Letter #5

I would be careful on the var. if caught I believe this is a felony!

In most circumstances it is OK. It depends on the laws of the state in which you live. Few waywards would ever want to file charges when it will bring to light their own misdeeds. Fighting infidelity is war, and if you are going to be cowed by every little legal threat, it is a war you are likely to lose.

Do not disrupt this thread anymore! If you want to warn someone about spy resources, do it once and then leave the thread alone. Keep your posts helpful to this OP or please refrain from posting.

Since you now know that she is texting, and that is where the most incriminating evidence is, what device could she be doing that with?

She either has an affair phone, or she is using an app you haven't checked, like WhatsApp, BBM messenger etc. Or she's using an app on her tablet. I'd guess something like WhatsApp because you can also send pictures practically for free (sorry).

Can you get spyware on her tablet?

Also, it's great news that he is married. (Any idea who?) You can easily run him off with the help of his wife. Your wife will come to see that she was being used as a side dish and you will be the hero who saved her from that degradation.

We have lots of success stories like that. But it's imperative you don't play your hand without evidence.

Everything rests on you getting good proof and quickly too.

Thanks Indiegirl

I've used wondershare and teensafe. Found 2-3 suspicious texts that are most likely just to her (girl) friend (not all deleted info comes back). There are no hits on WhatsApp, etc. in Teensafe.

She also did some searches on what Genital herpes looks like. Which is also suspicious but I don't know if she actually has it. I have had type 1 for years, but she has not had more than the odd blister down there.

We had a good talk today about the relationship. I was hurt because I was convinced she had a PA after snooping the texts and bookmarks. She became defensive and upset when I told her I had found some things out which hurt. I suggested she might be seeing other men. She wanted to know what my evidence was.

I told here there were a few things that were suspicious, but I wanted her to tell me what is going on between us and if she is seeing other men. She told me when would she- she does not have time, which is true except for during work hours and maybe just after work. She also started saying that she did wan't a divorce and I didn't. I backed off the probing because I sensed a lot of anger and it was not going to go well if I persisted.

She proceeded to tell me the work gossip which she believes I have heard 3rd hand that might lead me to believe there was an affair. She was pretty convincing, and I really wan't to believe her.

I do have a suspected OM, but no evidence. I know and see him and his friends occasionally and think if he wasn't scared off before he would be now with all the questions and baggage. I'm picking up that my W is also angry with him (OM).

W has been really good and last 2-3 weeks things have improved dramatically. She told me she is no longer angry with me. Many more hugs, talking, doing things together, no fighting or arguing. No pullbacks in almost 2 weeks. I don't have any evidence so far, so plan is to keep looking but to concentrate on building the love bank.

My wife suggested I talk to her if I am suspicious instead of getting suspicious. So I may bring up the web sites and search history in the next few days when we are alone and ask her what they are about.

I have full access to both her devices right now of her free will.

That is a horrible idea. You have just forewarned her so she can be more careful in the future. It is very likely, from what you have told us, that she is having a workplace affair. Stop talking about it and stop asking her. Just keep quietly snooping in more creative ways.


It doesn't take a genius to carry on an affair at work.

You should not ask a spouse if they are cheating, because a) they are not going to tell you the truth if they are b) if they are not, they will just be offended.

Unfortunately, you have just made it harder to figure out if she is having an affair.

You can retrieve deleted texts with this program: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2826225#Post2826225

OK thanks, won't talk to her about it anymore.

I did manage to see all texts in past 2 days, nothing suspicious in last month. Got me baffled, but she keeps insisting there is no one else and she is not seeing anyone. Might just be a idea she is mulling over and has not acted on so far -?

But do you have spyware on both of them???

She can always hide/delete information all she wants. There are messaging apps and the such she could be contacted him. There are still too many red flags.

No spyware, all require a jaibreak which worries me (if it goes bad). I should do it while I can though, if things change I will be kicking myself (I have already been there in past months) for not having used the opportunity while I had access....

Yes, please get spyware on those devices.

Good news! My wife would like to work on the marriage again!!! I cant believe how quickly things changed. Less than 4 weeks ago she just wanted to be friends.

When I started down the path to trying to reconcile with my wife, one of the questions I couldn't get answered is "how long" will it take. For me it was 2 months of doing everything wrong and almost losing her, followed by 3 months of doing things mostly right (with the help of 2 pro-marriage coaches over that time), before she was willing to try again, after 21 years of marriage.

This has been the most stressful 5 months of my life. Now I hope we can embark on a journey to fix what was broken in our marriage.

Thank you for all the support and advice!

Awesome! Keep us posted

How long does it take depends on how depleted her love bank is and how well you are by not committing any love busters.

What actions has she done to work on the marriage?

Have you contacted Dr. Harley, free of charge?

Also, since you haven't completely ruled out an affair her words are meaningless, sorry.

Why would she search what genital herpes looks like unless she has some concerns? I think you're ignoring too many red flags.

Can you afford a PI?

OK, been a long time since posting. Here is the ugly truth that came about by snooping as suggested here. There was a lot more in the texts than I originally thought because many of the texts were showing up under her friends name on her phone when I did get access, which seemed a little weird given their suggestive nature at the time. So I dismissed them too quickly originally.

Wife was involved with another man, not one I thought, but nearby business owner who is 15 years older, and was visiting her 4-6 hours per day. Told her everything she wanted to hear, listened to her flirted with her etc. This man is married for 38 years and is a well known "player" in the area. I had dealings with him at work many years ago and stopped using him as a contractor because he was a workplace bully. Feeling of dislike for each other is mutual. His own relationship is very shaky because he has had so many similar affairs. Small town, I know a lot about his personal affairs, we have many common aquaintances.

Here's the thing, my wife did not admit to any of this until I confronted her and said, do you really want me finding this out from your friends first. Even then she only let out things which I knew about from her texts. She eventually did tell me the "whole story ", which included many details which she could not have made up.

She lied so convincingly and for so long that now I do not trust her. I don't trust that she has told me everything. She adamantly tells me it was only emotional, not physical. What she is saying is almost believable. I have re-assured her that whatever it is I will stand by her many times, told her to move forward she needs to tell me the whole truth etc. She is now getting frustrated and angry that I can't let this go. Its been 3 weeks since she admitted there was something.

Her best friend is telling me I should dump her, that she slept with him, but then tells me, don't know for sure, just saying.... She won't come right out and tell me if she knows or just suspects.

I know she went somewhere with him for an hour and a half in mid Nov. She says just talking. Texts could be interpreted either way. Thing is there is nothing jumping out in the texts about having a great time or doing something to each other, just references to being horny, diddling herself thinking of him, etc. I was watching her closesly that day when she returned because it was one of the few unaccounted for times away from me. She was not showered, perfumed, and didn't look radiant at all, just looked like she got off work and smelled the same.

She got a genital piercing because he thought they were hot, and she always wanted one.

Best thing I could do is believe her and move on. Things between us are fairly good and getting better, she says she is fully committed to making this work. She told him we were working on it in early Mar, he tried to restart it in mid Mar and she disssed him. She told him a few weeks ago that I did not want him visiting her at work anymore, so he stopped. I have been visiting her daily at different times since.

I think she believes that if she admits the truth, it is so ugly and painful that it could end our marriage, or forever taint it.

She seems to be protecting him and says he is a nice guy, a lot like me, she believes that there really was something between them not just being played. She does not wan't me telling his wife, "why mess his and her life up?", she admits what he did was wrong, but feels partly to blame. In her texts, she seems to be the persuer. She tells me that he told her he didn't want a relationship and was not leaving his wife, but then would flirt incessantly and suggestively with her at work. She kept asking to spend time alone with him to talk (at work there is almost always other people around, so intimate conversations are limited).

I know I am opening up a whole can of worms here but this is what I am wondering:

- sure fire way to get her to tell the whole truth, or to tell is she is still lying?
- way to tell if it was more likely emotional or physical
- way to help me move on instead and accept what she has told me even though there are some holes in the story?

First, you need to get the book Surviving an Affair and follow the plan within it to the letter.

Here is an excerpt from it on Extraordinary Precautions. What on this list has been done? What is left to do?

From Surviving an Affair, pg 66-67

The extraordinary precautions do more than end marriage-threatening affairs; they help a couple form the kind of relationship they always wanted.

These recommendations may seem rigid, unnecessarily confining, and even paranoid to those who have not been the victim of infidelity. But people like Sue and Jon, who have suffered unimaginable pain as a result of an affair that spun out of control, can easily see their value. For the inconvenience of following my advice, Sue would have spared herself and Jon the very worst experience of their lives.

Checklist for How Affairs Should End

_____The unfaithful spouse should reveal information about the affair to the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should make a commitment to the betrayed spouse to never see or talk to the lover OP again.

_____The unfaithful spouse should write a letter to the lover OP ending the relationship and send it with the approval of the betrayed spouse.

_____The unfaithful spouse should take extraordinary precautions to guarantee total separation from the lover OP:

_____Block potential communication with the lover OP (change e-mail address and home and cell phone numbers, and close all social networking accounts; have voice messages and mail monitored by the betrayed spouse).

_____Account for time (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a twenty-four-hour daily schedule with locations and telephone numbers).

_____Account for money (betrayed spouse and wayward spouse give each other a complete account of all money spent).

_____Spend leisure time together.

_____Change jobs and relocate if necessary.

_____Avoid overnight separation.

_____Allow technical accountability.

_____Expose affair to family members, clergy, and/or friends.

The affair is physical, no matter what she says. Accept that now.

Is she still in contact with him?
Did you expose the affair?

Have you exposed her affair?

Who have you exposed her affair to?

Yes you dismissed examining the texts closely because you DID NOT listen to our advice.

We KNEW there was an affair.
We KNEW you could get evidence, if you tried hard enough.

You wanted to try to fix the marriage by skipping over the affair stuff. We kept redirecting you back to the snooping. Then you disappeared.

Recovery is a NARROW path. We can't help you if you dismiss our advice and try skipping steps. It WILL NOT WORK. Period.

Schedule a polygraph test for your WW. You will then get the truth.

Thanks for the replies. I know I was pretty naive going into this, couldn't happen to me, didn't want it to be true, still don't. He's overweight, balding grey out of shape and a cheat, and everyone but my wife seems to have known that. There were some signs that it was him early on, but I never believed my wife would go for gramps, he does have money, and looks a lot like her late father...

Pretty much everyone knows except possibly the other mans wife (although I suspect she knows or soon will too), its a small town, but my wife's versions which is it was an EA. Her boss confronted her yesterday about why their "best customer" was no longer visiting and my wife told her. She's cousins with one of his secretaries, both big gossipers. I've told most of my friends and colleages, its very humiliating and embarrassing to expose it, I'm ashamed that she picked him and that it happened.

I am waiting to expose it to the OM's wife, right now I know I have some leverage for him to stay away from my wife. He will not divorce his wife because it will cost him too much money and she will turn his 5 grown kids on him. I also wan't to ensure my wife and I are well on the road to recovery before I open up this mess (no idea how OM and his wife will react). OM told my wife she is insanely jealous, but no one seems to know anything about her other than she is catholic.

Wife claims their is no contact, I believe her, she torched her cell phone a few days after realizing more texts could be on there.

My wifes best friend insinuated that only way this will work is if I leave it alone and accept that she slept with him but don't expect the truth from her.

Dr Harley would encourage you expose the affair far and wide ESPECIALLY to the OM wife

The BS can never believe what the AP or WS says about the AP's BS. There is never any benefit to delaying exposure and I have seen harm happen too many times because of delaying.

People always 'affair down'. That's so standard it's a clich�.


Please give everyone the truth. Everyone 'knows' her version. She has presented you as a cruel, neglectful husband and OM as just a sympathetic shoulder to cry on.


When you expose to OMW (which you need to do today before the two of them concoct some story that you are a gun toting crazy man that she needs to stay away from) , be sure to tell her this as she may be able to retrieve at her end.

For sure they are still in touch. Wife has a burner phone now, find it. Be surgical and ruthless, you are fighting for your family.

Pole
You are doing it wrong!!!
I suggest you re-read EXPOSURE 101, and your own thread.
Listen to the veterans here, not your wifes best friend who knows nothing about affairs.

Your story is so predictable and right out of the textbook for waywards.

FINISH what you need to do.

She admitted was a physical affair this morning, after I told her the truth no matter how bad needs to come out, and that I did know something because someone told me.

She had sex with him once right after work late Sept, drove up a dirt road and did it in his truck. She said it was [censored], she used a condom and he barely got it up, didn't take long. Second time in mid Nov says it was talking and making out. Swears that this time its truth and those were the only times anything happened.

We've got the book Getting past the affair, going to follow it.

I'll re-read exposure 101. Wife is very concerned about telling his wife and does not wan't the whole town knowing what happened. Apparently his wife did some snooping and visiting my wife at work at one point, so probably suspected something was up.

My wife is a little angry right now, thinks I will never get over this and it will always be out there, despite me trying to re-assure her. She's sort of remorsefull, but keeps bringing up all the nasty things I said to her over the years. I am almost relieved that I finally know and can stop trying to second guess what really happened.

When will you be exposing this? When will you be telling OMBW??

The name of the book is Surviving an Affair. Do you have it? Dr. Harley is the leading expert on saving marriages after an affair. We can't help you if you don't use the program!!!


Expose the affair, starting with the OM's wife. This should be done IMMEDIATELY - TODAY. We are not in the least bit concerned about your wife's "concerns." The more people who know the more people to hold her accountable.

Don't forewarn your wife, just go inform the OM's wife and then move onto exposure to your family and friends.

If you won't follow the program, there is nothing we can do for you because this is hopeless.

This should be done NOW; it does not give you "leverage" to help them hide the affair. ALL IT DOES IS FUEL THE AFFAIR. Affairs thrive on secrecy, so if you are helping hide it, you are an accessory to the crime.

We cannot help you if you choose to be an ENABLER, Sir. Stop helping the affairees cover up their secret affair.

Your wife's best friend has no earthly idea how to save a marriage. What are her credentials and how many marriages has she saved? We have saved our marriages using Dr Harley's program. The question is: are you going to take the necessary steps to save your marriage or are going to waste our time blogging?

OK, I've started trying to contact OM's W. My wife has responded much better after I had a 2 hour talk with her about her needing to decide if and what she wanted in our marriage. She is finally stepping up an researching/ reading how to fix our problems, up till now this was only me and me telling her what we needed to do.

Amazingly she told me that this site was very good and I should read it!!! Who knows, maybe OM is onto this also? I probably have too much specific info about what she told me happened that will hurt me in getting to the truth. Might be a matter of time before she reads my thread and figures out who it is. Irony is I was trying to point her here back in Nov, but did not because I knew it would just be another example of me controlling her.

Exposing affair. I'm thinking this through. It would be very damaging. W seems like she is finally on board, realizing that OM is a serial cheater and said everything she wanted to hear, got what he wanted then told her it would be better to go back to me because he was might get caught. Not ruling it out, but thinking I could do more damage discreetly, I have easy acces to and know probably 80% of his bussiness clients and friends since we work with all the same people.

So, have you decided to do nothing? That's ok if you do. I just want to point out that you are wasting our time if you won't take the advice. I don't come here to read people's blogs. This is not a blogging forum, but a step by step program that is designed to save marriages. Are you here to use this program?

What exactly does this mean?


What is damaging is your enabling. You have become an accessory to the crime and are only contributing to your own demise.

Oh boy, here we go again.

You IGNORED our advice when we told you there was an affair and to SNOOP. You "dismissed" suspicious texts because you want to sweep the "affair proofing" part of the plan under the rug.

That will BACKFIRE. You can try to convince us otherwise...but it won't work.

Blogging will not save your marriage. Following these steps WILL. If you refuse to take the advice, then please don't waste our valuable time.

Still doing it wrong.
Oh well good luck.