I see. I gave too much weight to the fact he was hiding phone calls again. Okay, would it be more accurate to say his committment to being open is kind of hit and miss, but not so badly that it's raising red flags for you?

Yes, Plan A cannot go on forever. If he keeps sitting on that fence, something must be done. It looks like you've given some thought to Plan B. My only question would be whether it might not be better to have a friend, instead of a family member available to do the pass offs? Family members tend to take sides, even when a person would swear it was very unlikely. It could create difficulties somewhere down the line. Just something for you to consider and decide.

TFC, his denial will continue for a long time, as will his lack of remorse. That's almost routine. I don't have a good feel for how long it takes for the WS's resistence to admitting what he/she has done and be sorry for it.

Hmmmmm

How about this. Why don't you start a new thread asking for some MB folks to give personal accounts of how long it took for their WS to begin feeling remorse, etc? You've seen all kinds of threads out here...you'll know how to word it. When the purpose of that thread has been completed, you can come back to this thread. Whatcha think?

Good idea. He feels that his A was completely justified b/c of mine. I think neither of ours are ... we don't see eye to eye on this. Or much of anything else about recovery. For example, he thinks that I should stay home and not go out with him until we've fully recovered (if that happens) and I feel that during our recovery he should make friends aware that we are working on the M.

He actually told me today that I should feel grateful about whatever attention I get from him. I am still a human being! And I am grateful that he decided to stick around for now and make an effort at things. But I don't think I should have to be groveling every second of every day. I don't think I should be told I'm lucky for whatever I get from him. I think we should join forces to fight this battle together - respectfully, lovingly. Am I totally off base?

He says that 4-5 months is such a little time and that he wouldn't be able to make a decision for years to come ... I don't think I should have to wait for years for him to decide if he wants to give our M a shot or not. Am I expecting too much?

Okay, I'll look forward to seeing your new thread. I think it would be a great idea to reach out for such folks as believer, Melody, and Mrs W, and others whose names escape me at the moment. When there's only one person posting, things can get missed.

It's upsetting to begin hearing of your husband's new attitudes and behavious, or are you just now writing about something that's been on-going? Either way, it's disturbing. He's restating that entitlement thing and he's building fences in his life, segregating wife and daughter into one place...and who knows what's going on the other fenced off places? Compartmentalization is never a good thing. It allows secrets to exist and grow. No, you’re not at all off base. (Suggestion: make his attitudes a part of the question in your new thread.)

Actually, you know...you’re not the lucky one. It could be argued his is the greater transgression because, before he engaged in his adultery, he already knew how much destruction and agony he would be inflicting. One might conclude he is the lucky one because you’ve stuck around.

TFC, there is manipulation written all over his “new” behavior and in his words. If he’s also decided he doesn’t have to tell you about phone calls and text messages, then a seriously bad trend is developing...and very quickly too. I’m beginning to wonder what other manipulative techniques he might be practicing AND I wonder what his endgame is.

His suggestion he’s putting off a decision for “years” is another indication of attempted manipulation and it’s a way to dominate the relationship…to punish you further, perhaps, and keeping you dangling, under his thumb (to use a cliché where the opportunity presents itself). These aren’t good signs and they might mean a Plan B is closer than I would have dreamed this time last week. If his new (?) behavior becomes entrenched and hardens, the process of recovery becomes more difficult or even impossible.

Yesterday was the first time you’ve mentioned something like this, TFC. Are there any other things you’ve hesitated to tell us here at MB?

This is certainly new now ... the last 2 weeks have been full of kindness and efforts. Now we are sort of back to the same attitude that he had during his A.

We just had a long talk. He doesn't necessarily want a separation, but can't say he's willing to try at the M either. Can't imagine what to do next ...

I don't think I've failed to mention anything that might be significant.

Btw, Longhorn - I've posted that thread ... let's hope I can get some answers on this!

You have really been a lifesaver these past weeks and I can't thank you enough for your generosity and advice!

<sigh>

This is very strange. I wonder if it's just one of those bumps in the road or a trend that will continue. I just do not care for the implications of some of the things he said. Now are the times I wish someone's mind could be read. (Still no way he'll go to counseling?)

Continuing your Plan A is the only thing to do, for as long as you have decided you will. You don't have control over his thought processes, TFC, and you aren't responsible for his recent behavior. Don't let this get you down. The past two weeks might be a false recovery or this may be just a low point he, and you both will look back on as just a minor glitch. Plan A, being courteous and atttentive to him while working on being the best spouse and partner you can be, will set up the maximum effect of Plan B.

Hang tough, TFC and stay with the program Dr. Harley has found to work, okay?

After this morning, I will need to Plan A really well for at least another month before going into Plan B. I had some major LBs ... I raised my voice and wasn't as thoughtful in my wording as I have been making it a habit to be.

I'm hoping this is just a low point, but it is really low right now. I agree that some of the things he said have some terrible implications. Mind reading would be genius right now!

Just talked to H ... turns out both XOM and XOM's XW called him last night. I asked (yet again) why he didn't tell them both to go away - still no real answer.

I'm guessing that this most recent contact between them all has stirred up some really negative feelings about me and this could be what is causing his relapse into old attitudes & behaviors.

In addition, he couldn't deny that he was only sticking around until it was more convenient for him to move out.

So ... I am ultra-confused, but I am guessing that a strong Plan A is in order for a while longer, barring any unexpected disasters.

Darn. I suspect you're right. I'm curious why he's allowing the contact to continue. It doesn't make sense to me. Plan A, but get your Plan B tuned up, TFC. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

He seems confused as well. For instance:
Today he asked what he can do while out of town that would make me happy. I told him that I always really appreciate when he takes time to call and text me. Later when we were talking about how great we get along in a semi-long distance M, he notes that we are "just friends". Later I got the ILYBNILWY speech.

Sometimes I wonder if he actually does want to work on the M, but doesn't want to admit it to himself or to me. Like admitting it would mean that he gave in to my A and let me "win". I truly wonder if this manipulative behavior is a control thing, an ego thing, a self-preservation thing. Maybe I am just too hopeful and he really wants out?

It’s obvious he's actively working now to keep you at arm's length but I agree, his motives aren't clear at all. He may not know himself what he wants to do. Manipulative techniques are tools we human beings use for all sorts of reasons and that use doesn’t have to be a conscious thing. The heartbreaking thing about it is, the best course of action that would clarify things for him in his own mind, and yours, is the one thing he apparently won't do – professional counseling.

A second problem is he doesn't see this limbo can't go on indefinitely. Though he speaks of years before he'll make his decision to stay or go, it's too volatile a situation to remain unsettled for that long. If your marriage is to be salvaged, he must be shocked out of that frame of thought and made to see what he’s doing to himself and his family.

(Have you expressed your disagreement with his X-number of years plan?)

Regretfully, the shock value of a great Plan A, followed by a dark Plan B may be the only thing that gets through to him. He wouldn’t be the first.

TFC, I think it may be necessary to talk to your attorney about filing for a legal separation or actually petition for divorce in order to get him out of the house for a good Plan B. Just "filing" of those actions is not binding...they don't have to be carried out to the last extremity...and a skillful attorney can draw them out almost indefinitely while your Plan B does its work in your husband’s mind. Maybe you should check with your attorney, tell him/her about your purposes in doing this and see what advice you get?

I am going to talk to MIL to see if she can help influence him to get in IC at least.

He is well aware that his years-long plan is not going to fly with me. I told him the same thing I've said here: I understand that it will take years to see if things can work out or not, but in the meantime a decision needs to be made on trying to make it work.

I must admit that I am so afraid of Plan B and D. I think it would actually be harder for me to go without talking to him than vice versa.

I was just reading another thread on here and it reminded me that I should note that I have been trying to discuss recovery too much lately ... falling off Plan A there. He said that he was sick of the "Dr. Phil conversations" (lol), so I obviously need to cut it out. I need to study a bit more on Plan A (as previously mentioned) - I've always been a straight-A student and I seem to be around a C-student on this subject! Wish me luck on that.

I hope MIL can get him to see some sense in that. Plan B and D ARE scary, TFC. If they weren't to you, I'd be concerned about your chances to recover your marriage.

You're right, relationship talk isn't advisable, but no one does a perfect Plan A. When you fall off the horse, get back on and ride on down the road.

I miss my H! I have longed for some affection for some time now. Affection & SF are in the top of my ENs ... SF is met, but without affection. Before he went out of town yesterday, I didn't even get a hug! I've been getting hugs before he leaves, but not this time. I got a squeeze on the shoulder instead. I am feeling the distance ... big time!

Some small things that did make me feel good:
1. He asked me to get a babysitter one night next week to do something with him.
2. He told me yesterday that I looked pretty ... he hasn't done that in a while.
3. He mentioned having a surprise for me in the next couple of weeks.

Looks to me like he gives you some affection and some hopeful words when he's preparing for a trip, or actually on one...long distance, as it were.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

A date night is good news; I hope it happens. I don't know what to make of the "surprise." Could you read your husband's eyes and body language when he said it?

Some affection, yes - but not how I want/need it. It is a bit concerning that he is nicest just before going away and while gone, isn't it? My best friend thinks it is his way of keeping me "in line" - not sure I agree with her.


LOL ... I didn't think about how "surprise" would come across online! It was nice, there was a pleasantness about it - so, no, I'm not expecting anything like D papers. He just said that he thought I would be very pleased with him sometime over the next couple of weeks. When I asked why, he noted that he had a surprise. He's never been good at keeping surprises secret - but he's been good about this one, I have no idea what it could be. I'm guessing I'll find out when he gets back in town next Monday (still so sad he won't be home for Mothers Day <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />).

Okay, I admit I sometimes automatically go to the glass half-empty thing. It sounds a lot better with some clarification. As for him keeping you “in line,” you’ll know in time if he’s just throwing you crumbs with that intent in mind.

I'll work on seeing the glass half full, okay?

Well, I probably see the glass half-full waaaaaaay too much! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

You ever get that feeling that something just isn't right? That's how I feel half the time. I am so confused by all the mixed signals and I'm trying my best to not let it affect me, but I'm not managing it well admittedly.

Longhorn - An update from the thread about remorse: The timeline for showing some remorse seems to be about 6 months. No one really commented about a timeline for choosing to work on the M.

I am beginning to feel half-empty ... like our M is doomed. He's out of town and is being nice, but not attentive. Does that make sense? He calls whenever, which is not much, but is nice and shows an effort at good communication when we talk. But if I text message or call, he doesn't respond. Maybe it is that control thing again?

What can I do?