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More homework! ... LH you are a tough, but wonderful teacher! I will call the radio show tomorrow, and I will study the links you provided.

I wanted to break down what I've learned from Sadmo's thread, so that I can develop my plan more accurately and thoroughly. Hope you all don't mind! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Step away and let him come find you. He needs to make the greater effort

I think I can handle this.

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Part of the beauty of the plans....it doesn't require as much work as many BS might think

What did you mean by this, Orchid? It seems to be requiring a lot of work ... how can I make it easier on myself?

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I think that a lot of my confusion is that I was WS first ... so I feel like I can't be as tough with my plan as another BS.

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It's definitely a complication, but others have gotten past it. If you've been as radically honest about your inappropriate relationship when talking with your MIL and those others you've exposed to, I think the complications can be managed.

Don't buy into his "justified revenge" theory though. The old saw about two wrongs not making a right clearly applies. Additionally, it could be said his was the worst betrayal because he knew first hand the depth of the emotional impact it would cause. Revenge isn't the best of motives in any human endeavor, btw. I don't like people who act out because they want to "get even."

Your MIL is a counselor, right? Maybe it's time to sit down with her some morning for a nice conversation over a cup of coffee? Or how about bringing it up with your IC?

BTW, any progress with finding WH an IC?

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Part of the beauty of the plans....it doesn't require as much work as many BS might think

What did you mean by this, Orchid? It seems to be requiring a lot of work ... how can I make it easier on myself?

Once the BS makes their plan A self-improvements, they become the attractive spouse. Inner beauty surpasses outer beauty by a long shot. Though both are good, I'm pushing 50 so inner beauty is easier. - LOL!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> (just kidding).


After this is done, the BS has relatively little to do. The Xws must then show their contribution which includes helping the BS and family heal.

The BS monitors and enjoys the benefits. If the BS finds they are doing most of the work, you've got to go back and reestablish the rules for recovery. Otherwise, this could lead to false recoveries which is quite painful.

L.

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If you've been as radically honest about your inappropriate relationship when talking with your MIL and those others you've exposed to, I think the complications can be managed.

H had already exposed to pretty much everyone ... long after the A was over. Either way, I have been radically honest with MIL - since she's a therapist, she's been very helpful in dealing with my inner growth as well as setting boundaries for my H.

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Additionally, it could be said his was the worst betrayal because he knew first hand the depth of the emotional impact it would cause.

I would agree with this entirely. His excuse is that in his mind, we weren't married anymore from the moment he found out about my A.

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BTW, any progress with finding WH an IC?

I haven't had any time! This week has been crazy! I was planning on working on that some tomorrow, since I don't have to work.

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My H has noticed my changes ... he's commented on what a fantastic mother I've become and how this is the woman he wishes he'd been married to all along. And, just today was so surprised to hear that I was seriously thinking about going back to school (something I've put off for a long time).

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The Xws must then show their contribution which includes helping the BS and family heal.

So, I've made a lot of changes for the better. I've thought of this as a life-long journey for me - M or not. But, what happens if your H doesn't really show much of a contribution? Is this where my "strategy" needs to come in to play?

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Btw - yesterday I decided to stop calling and texting him. He wasn't answering them, so I thought it best to just stop. So, suddenly today he's called more than lately. And he sent a text today saying "I think I really miss home". Then, we talked shortly after and he mentioned that the ex-gf of one of his friends sent him a text today insinuating that she'd like to have SF with him ... and he participated in the conversation!!! Its like he's trying his damnedest to mess with my head ... and he's doing a good job of it. I am trying not to let it affect me, but I must admit it does. Now I have to make a plan and stick to it


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Additionally, it could be said his was the worst betrayal because he knew first hand the depth of the emotional impact it would cause.


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I would agree with this entirely. His excuse is that in his mind, we weren't married anymore from the moment he found out about my A


GTFOOH....It is more reasonable to look at it as YOUR affair started this whole mess....that his affair was a result of the wounds that YOU inflicted on him and that it would not have happened without your striking first. This is the biggest bunch of bull crappy to be thrown around here in a while. Remember... you gave him HIS excuse on a silver platter with your actions. It would have been good for him if he never did anything about it... but please... worse than yours???? Not a chance.

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We never said that his A was worse than mine. We were commenting on how his actions were a more blatant betrayal. I undertand that my actions initiated our current marital situation. But you must admit MEDC, that his actions have worsened the situation. And I'm sorry that you aren't seeing that there is never an excuse for an A ... not mine, not his.

Now, if you would like to add something that might help me make a plan to save my M it would be appreciated. Otherwise, don't come here just to berate me. I am not delusional ... I know what I did, and I am not making excuses for it nor am I justifying it. He, on the other hand, is both making excuses & justifying his choices.

What would you recommend, MEDC? That I just lay down and be his doormat? That I not hold him accountable for his actions?

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Well said, TFC! It sure is easy to tell the bitter ones among us, isn't it, TFC? A good rule of thumb is to note which posters resort to personal attack in order to get their points across. That’s them…the unpleasant ones. The ideas of Christian forgiveness and redemption are completely foreign to them and they can’t help but reveal themselves in time.

On the other hand, most folks have actually read your earlier posts and noted your remorse at the affair you have also completely “owned.” Most everyone has seen that you, when you came to your senses, did exactly what every betrayed spouse out here would give their right arms for their wayward spouse to have done. Most folks try to assist those in need instead of mocking them, don’t they?


*****

Not calling WH or texting (I can’t believe that’s actually a verb) him is one of the techniques in a good 180. Are you practicing already? It’s had an effect already, huh? That’s good, but I’d caution against reading too much into it. Remember, he began appearing to come closer to you when he was away last time. Beware of overreacting.

First things first. You need that program Orchid asked you about. I’ve been talking “plan” for a long time and I must apologize for not seeing you didn’t have as good a one as I assumed you did. The false recovery also threw me off and I’m very sorry I didn’t see well enough through the trees to discern the forest, to coin a pompous little phrase. A solid strategy of what you’re going to do, what boundaries you will enforce, what he must commit to, whether to extend Plan A, when to go to Plan B, etc., etc., are all good things to address.

Side note: TFC, you mentioned at one time you wanted to write him letters (and maybe text him?) while he’s away on these trips. I personally don’t like letters...because they are a kind of detached, disconnected (as it were) means of communication. I like face-to-face interaction.

BUT...Dr. Harley has remarked that in some instances, letters, telephone calls, (and text messages I presume, though he didn’t specifically mention them) can better simply because the wayward spouse isn’t ready for the intensity of a personal conversations. I note your husband “gets closer” to you when he’s on a road trip. So…I wonder if you might consider reviving that idea and try to communicate some things you can’t say in person through a letter you sneak into his luggage or something like that? We’ve discussed he’s not ready for too much relationship stuff, but I wonder if he were to read about some areas related to that, but not quite on that topic? It’s a raw idea. Can you add something to it? Whatcha think?

Comments Orchid, Mulan, Melody, et al? Mrs. W., your input would be highly valued, as would Dorry’s if you happen to know whether she’s still around.

LH

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Not calling WH or texting (I can’t believe that’s actually a verb) him is one of the techniques in a good 180. Are you practicing already?

Not really. I just decided that I wasn't going to let myself feel rejected by him anymore.

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First things first. You need that program Orchid asked you about. I’ve been talking “plan” for a long time and I must apologize for not seeing you didn’t have as good a one as I assumed you did. The false recovery also threw me off and I’m very sorry I didn’t see well enough through the trees to discern the forest, to coin a pompous little phrase. A solid strategy of what you’re going to do, what boundaries you will enforce, what he must commit to, whether to extend Plan A, when to go to Plan B, etc., etc., are all good things to address.

I unfortunately mistook "plan" to mean Plan A or B. I need a "strategy" and that is my goal today. I've tried with boundaries before, but came up short. Plan A is not about having your spouse commit to anything right? Well, I am seeking a commitment to work on the M - in words and in actions. Plan A is not about expecting your needs to be met, right? Well, I've gone without many needs met for quite some time now and find myself longing for them to be met and hanging on for dear life every time one is met even in the smallest way. So, it seems to me that I made the mistake of sort-of saying "adios" to Plan A right after he ended his A. Should I have stayed in Plan A longer? I'm beginning to wonder ...

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I note your husband “gets closer” to you when he’s on a road trip. So…I wonder if you might consider reviving that idea and try to communicate some things you can’t say in person through a letter you sneak into his luggage or something like that? We’ve discussed he’s not ready for too much relationship stuff, but I wonder if he were to read about some areas related to that, but not quite on that topic? It’s a raw idea. Can you add something to it? Whatcha think?

Well, as I mentioned, I feel rejected every time I try to communicate in any way. How can I make attempts like these and expect no response?

I'm wondering if I should consider my first 3 months of Plan A as the period of time in which I needed to prove to him that I might be worth keeping around.

I would appreciate any guidance anyone has to offer. I am feeling rather lost with regards to my strategy, yet I feel I need one ASAP!

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what you did say was quoted... that it could be said that his was a worse betrayal.... that is what I responded to.

I never suggested that you lay down to be his doormat......nor do I think his affair was okay. Ask yourself why the vets here with the exception on Longhorn has basically avoided your thread. Remember not that long ago when the type of logic you used above caused them to go on the attack? I stayed and offered to help... but I will not enable crazy thinking like you outlined above... just won't do it. You have a person like LH that does a good job of that.... and frankly, it will get you no where.
The strategy that you were given by the vets here still remains true.... Plan A and work on YOU.... remember you can't change him... just yourself. Be patient.... even though you have admitted that is not a strongsuit of yours. You will be rejected at times... deal with it. He will fence sit at times... deal with it. Expect that it will happen and it will be easier.

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First off, the quote was what LH said ... and I agreed that the betrayal could be considered worse. I didn't say "I agree. I think his A was worse than mine." Did I? I simply understood the thought behind it - not once have I tried to see which A was "worse", nor do I think that was what LH was doing. I took it that LH was trying to remind me that my H knew the damage his A would cause ... as sort of a reminder that my H could be still acting out for retribution. LH - am I far off base here?

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Ask yourself why the vets here with the exception on Longhorn has basically avoided your thread.

From what I have seen, Longhorn is a respected MB vet. Maybe some of the vets will comment on MEDC's note that you have all "avoided" my thread?

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Additionally, it could be said his was the worst betrayal because he knew first hand the depth of the emotional impact it would cause.


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I would agree with this entirely. His excuse is that in his mind, we weren't married anymore from the moment he found out about my A


Pretty much self explanatory. I WOULD AGREE WITH THIS ENTIRELY.... your words.

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Again, MEDC, you aren't understanding what I am saying ... I agreed "entirely" that "IT COULD BE SAID ... " - this was not either of us saying "IT IS MY OPINION". To me, these are two entirely different things: One says "in theory" the other says "I believe". Theories aren't what I live by - I live by my beliefs. I choose not to "rate" our As in order of which was worse. I believe (what I live by) that they were both wrong.

I will admit that when I first came here I had a lot of learning to do, and that I didn't fully see where I needed to just work on me. I have grown quite a bit, whether you see it or not. My H has seen it. I am proud of the woman I am becoming. As this improved version of myself, I have higher expectations for myself and the future of my M. I would like to see my M flourish from all this heartache. And I believe that it can. But in order for my H and I to move forward in our M and make it flourish, we BOTH have to work on the M. I have proven that I am willing to change myself and work on the M ... now my H needs to do the same if he chooses to stay M to me. I don't think that is absurd or out of line.

I stated earlier that my goal today was to develop a strategy for myself (note that it is for ME, not for changing my H) ... that is what I am seeking to achieve here today. I am not going to try to defend myself against your lack of understanding for what was said - you can choose to believe what you wish. I must say, that you seem to only find the negative in me. I have been able to tell for quite some time that you and I have personalities that clash.

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See, that is where you are wrong... I do see change in you... change for the better...but that does not mean that you won't be called on things you say or agree with... in theory or not.
Your H will decide what he needs to do. YOU get to decide what you can and should do.... and the whole point of my posts to you is given the can of worms that YOU opened up in his life, I feel that you owe him a lot more patience than you have displayed up until now. Patience will benefit you both...and it will allow you to realize that you cannot control the actions of another... just as your H had no control over your rutting with the OM.
And you are right we do have personalities that clash.... I clash with quite a few people at times...but note to you here... you have clashed with many on this site...even those that have shown a willingness to be patient with some pretty foggy WS. The question is why... and the answers are in your first thread.
Now... I gave you advice before... and it remains the same... be patient with your H and work on you. You have stated that he is noticing the changes...good, you are ahead of the game. Now, keep doing the work and see where it leads him.
Just my 2 cents.

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Don't buy into his "justified revenge" theory though. The old saw about two wrongs not making a right clearly applies. Additionally, it could be said his was the worst betrayal because he knew first hand the depth of the emotional impact it would cause. Revenge isn't the best of motives in any human endeavor, btw. I don't like people who act out because they want to "get even."

You've got the right idea, TFC. If an objective person re-reads what I said, they'll see I was urging you to not buy in to an assertion by WH that he was entitled to have an affair because you did. I stand by what I said. If someone accidentally hits another person's bumper in traffic, that is one thing. If the “victim” in this analogy broods about the accident, becomes bitter, and drives the streets every day looking for an opportunity to retaliate against the first, sincerely apologetic, driver…then that is something calculatedly cruel and malicious. It's worse than the initial accident, and that’s what I was trying to get across.

Let’s summarize.

I’m not downplaying the effect your affair has had on the marriage, TFC, but I recognize you can’t go back in time and undo something. You have to deal with the situation as it exists today. To keep carping about you having been the first to allow yourself to slip into infidelity is counterproductive. In previous posts, I’ve suggested you and your WH need to get into couples counseling as soon as possible to jointly resolve the fallout from that event, but it isn’t possible at the moment because of resistance from your WH. The smart thing to do, as you’ve been doing, is to deal with the problem at hand and hope for mutual healing when WH is ready for it. You’ve told us you are seeing an IC to explore how you could have left your integrity behind for that time in your life.

Additionally, I’ve read your early posts and I think you instinctively did those things you could that normally would allow your WH to heal. The problem is he wasn’t receptive. From your account of this whole tragedy (and before you even read SAA), you began to apply Dr. Harley’s Four Rules of Marital Recovery to the extent you could. Additionally, I saw distinct remorse in your words and your actions. These are exemplary things for a wayward spouse to do.

A quick look at the active threads on this board show there are many, many betrayed spouses who are months into a bona fide recovery but who have yet to receive an apology or any sign of remorse from their wayward spouses. You, on the other hand, skipped months of fog and went right to an attempted recovery. As I said, many, many betrayed spouses out here would give their right arms to have their wayward spouses behave in such a fashion.

I personally don’t believe there is any value to a suggestion you should, in some fashion, be publicly castigated and punished in some arcane manner. Some people do, for whatever reason they may have. They frequently use words with high negative connotations in order to shame others, they mock other people’s ideas, and they deliberately use personal invective as a weapon. I personally will never understand why some people get stuck in that mode and refuse to budge.

I suspect they think they’re showing “tough love,” having been attracted to that policy at some point in their lives. Unfortunately, they don’t ever see the negative things they do by applying that technique at inappropriate times. Though they have contributions to make from time to time, whatever good they could do is lost in the flood of negativism they spout as a knee-jerk reaction. Regretfully, they do far more damage than they ever do good.

Frankly, it’s not helpful, it’s not intellectually honest and it’s not in keeping with Dr. Harley’s principles.


*****

Keep working on your strategy, lady. That’s the important thing, but don’t rush it. It’s been months since this all began and you can afford a few days to explore things and set things up properly.

Boundaries are important. How about re-reading Ark’s recent post about Plan A? There’s a section on boundaries in that thread. Then browse through other threads on boundaries using the search feature at the top of your thread. That’s quite a project but I think you’ll get a pretty good understanding very quickly.

You’re right. Plan A is for the betrayed spouse and expecting anything from the WS is an expectation that just isn’t going to be met. Again, re-read Ark’s post, but Plan A...and Plan B, for that matter...are for the betrayed spouse. That doesn’t mean they don’t have a subliminal effect, as it were, on the wayward spouse. Perhaps you can take a quick review of SAA’s discussion of Plan A and B? If you do, please note Dr. Harley talks about the pressures unmet emotional needs has on the wayward one.

You must set your own time limits for Plan A. We can't see everything that's in your mind...only you know that. As a guidline, Dr. Harley tells us three months is about the average limit for a woman and six months for a man, and he tells us why in SAA. But averages are built from time lengths that are shorter, and longer than the median. SH regularly recommends doing a Plan A for as long as you can. I think a good rule of thumb would be to carefully gauge your own emotions. When you begin to feel resentment, when the emotional fatigue begins to overwhelm you, when the anger begins to return, then it’s time to move to Plan B.

I hope you get a chance to call the radio show. I think your case would be of interest and it would benefit you enormously to hear again from Dr. Harley.

Hang in there, TFC.

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Well, H opened his own bank account today ... "just to be able to transfer money to the joint account while out of town". I had asked him to just overnight the check to me so I could deposit it. RED FLAG!

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Orchid once said:
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The heart on the other hand often does NOT want to believe the one who loved and protected the family has now become enemy #1. Denial often resides in the heart and there in lies the internal war.

How often have you said during this journey..... 'I know what I s/b doing but I am not ready t/d it (i.e. plan A, B or D), yet.' Or somethng similar. Comments like these show the mind and heart are NOT in sync.

Making life changing decisions while in this disconnected state of mind is dangerous. Some BS' give away what rightfully belongs to the family and in some cases it has devastated them.

My head and heart are NOT in sync! I am not ready to "move on" with or without my H. I have tried to feel this way, but can't. I also do not WANT to move on with or without my H. I want him as my H, but I have no control over this. I think that this is what is keeping me from setting boundaries. I want him to be my H so bad, that I'll accept just about anything even though I know I shouldn't!

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