He's depositing more to the new account than he said?

Seems to me, he's getting more distant all the time. There was a short spell when he seemed to be coming out of the fog, but now it's closed in again. WS's often do that when they've resumed contact with the OP. Are you sure he hasn't found some other means of communicating with her, TFC?

I don't understand why you're asking about how long to wait while he makes a decision on whether to work on the marriage. If you're not going to do a 180 or a Plan B, I don't know what you can do except stay where you are, doing exactly what you're doing now, while you wait for the game he's playing to finish. If you wait long enough, the decision will be taken out of your hands.

As for feeling crazy, did you read Mulan's "Gaslighting" thread? You don't see what he's doing?

TFC, you've been very strong in this whole thing and now is not the time to give in and let the adultery dictate to you what you're going to do with your life and your daughter's welfare. If you can be strong for a little while longer, and do something about the neverending assault on your sensibilities, you will come out of this sane and whole. I can't promise your marriage will survive, no one can. But I can tell you that you and your daughter will make it. Hang in there, lady.

Thank you LH!

About the account - he originally deposited X amount into his new account and transferred about 2/3 of X into our joint account. Then last night tells me that he has Y amount to deposit into our joint account. When I asked how much he had in his account, he answered Z amount. Z amount was a complete lie - he left the bank receipt sticking out of a zipper in his suitcase.

I want to sit him down and have a money talk, but I'm not sure that it would do any good. But I just want him to see how much he is hurting our family financially. But he is so stuck in his world/fog that I don't think it would do any good. Therefore, I am taking steps to further protect us financially today.

I did read Mulan's thread ... and every time he does something like that, all I can think is "Gaslighting! He is soooooooo gaslighting right now!" I'll re-read the thread today for some encouragement on handling this better.

He is certainly distancing more and more. I suppose I need to start trying to detach from the situation, as I am allowing it to affect me more and more instead of less and less.

I shouldn't be asking how long until he makes a decision ... I should be asking myself how long I'm willing to wait for him to show a commitment to our M.

I'm glad you're taking those financial security steps today, TFC. I regret it, but I think it's necessary to protect yourself and your daughter from a WH who is increasingly in a fog it appeared he was coming out of at one point.

I’ve gone over all your posts in this thread and, in a sense, things aren’t as bad now as they once were. (In another sense, things are worse because I’m afraid the current detachment is deliberate, where the “acting out” was more emotional and poorly considered than anything else.) At one point he was running around, acting single, and not bothering to even come home after nights out. He was singularly unapologetic about it too.

He cleaned up his act and it appeared he was going to begin to work with you on the marriage…and then something happened. He seems to have inexplicably reversed course again, though his “acting out” isn’t in the same mold as it was before. Is there any event you can think of that occurred about the same time his new attitude began to assert itself?

As far as combating gaslighting, I think reverse babble would be a very effective thing to use. Alternately, you could establish a boundary of not listening to demeaning remarks intended to manipulate you. You can’t control his speech, but you can certainly set up a boundary that you won’t listen. He controls his actions; you control yours. If you courteously let him know you’re not going to be spoken to in that fashion and walk out of the room when he starts something like that, he’ll get the idea pretty quickly. Reverse babble AND turning around and walking away might have interesting results.

Detachment and determining how long your love can last when WH seems to be working hard at distancing himself are difficult questions. He’s distancing himself emotionally from you, and I sense from his daughter also, though you haven’t specifically said so. It’s especially troubling because it seems to be part of a deliberate plan. In short, and very regretfully, I see your WH engaging in a pattern of behavior that isn’t very promising. As you say, I think if you let him control how the end game plays out in this, you and your daughters may wind up victims. I don't want to see that.

Comments, folks?

Guess its just you LH ...

You'll be proud of me. Today he began the gaslighting worse than ever before! I just said to him: "You are welcome to turn things around if it makes you feel better. But keep that to yourself because its just not reality and I don't have to listen to it."

I also asked if we would need the sitter tomorrow or not (remember it was for our date?) and he didn't know what for! Then he admitted that he hadn't forgotten about it, but he hadn't really thought about it either. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

time, I've been following your posts too, but haven't responded. I am at a loss right now myself, therefore not much advice from me, but lots of support! Best wishes on all you are doing and I hope your H comes through for you soon.

LH / TFC

I have been reading these today and am perplexed also.



Do you think that the encounter with XOM may be the root of this latest chapter? It seems to have happen around the same time.

I wonder what was discussed? What was shared ?

It seems your H went down hill after the encounter. Something is brewing. Perhaps WH has checked out and just preparing and waiting the right moment. Very strange.

Too funny! I was literally just reading one of yours! Keeping you in my prayers ...
-TFC

Rwinger - I agree that the encounter with XOM is probably what triggered this ...

I don't know much about the encounter other than the little that he told me.


This is exactly what I'm thinking ...
But then he backpedals and makes attempts to reconcile when he can tell that he has upset me. So, I'm just not sure ...

Okay, it's not just me being suspicious then. I actually see two possibilities: (1) The affair has been rekindled (or there is another OW, even a series of ONS), or (2) he has indeed checked out and is in the process of justifying it in his own mind and packaging it for public consumption. Either way, something is going on that is not clear right now. It'll become more obvious later, I'm sure.

The incident where he ran into the FOM was also the only thing I could see in your writing that would seem to be anything approaching a turning point. Perhaps seeing and talking with him brought back all of the frustration and pain WH experienced when he first learned of your affair? But why would he seem to stay in contact with FOM? Have you noticed any contact between them since last week?

I wonder if your IC could explain why WH and FOM might be reforging their friendship? It doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not terribly surprised you caught him off guard with a question about the date tomorrow. Something about the date really bothers me, but I'm frequently paranoid when there's something I don't understand.

Keep up the reverse babble and not allowing inappropriate remarks. Reverse babble can be a relaxing, even an amusing pastime...and it has an effect on the alien.

Hang in there, TFC.

I'm guessing its #2, LH. I have become quite the detective, so I don't think I would miss a beat if he were talking to her or anyone else.

The XOM encounter is the only thing that has been unusual or unpleasant, as far as I know. I thought about asking him about it, but I don't know that I would get an answer. So, I will ask my IC this week. I'm willing to bet he's confused us all on this one!

The most recent trip, he stayed with some friends and they gave their opinion of whether or not he should stay M to me. I asked if he told them the whole[ story about himself as well. He wavered on saying "yes" ... then I picked out certain things like "So, they know that you've had your own revenge affair? They know about you spending the night with her? They know about all the women you were acting inappropriately with?" He didn't have much of a response to that, so I'm guessing they only know 1/2 the story. I told him that either way, other people's opinions have no place in our M. That this is between he & I.

As for our "date" ... last night, I asked if the sitter had called yet. He said "no, why?" I told him that I needed to let her know that I wouldn't need her. He just grunted. A couple of minutes later he said something like "well, you can come if you want to." I just said "no thank you". He asked what was wrong and I explained that I thought it was very rude for him to invite me to something and then not follow through. That issue was never resolved - I just ended up saying I wasn't going (even thought I still really want to).

And here come the mixed signals ...
I was getting ready for bed last night and he sat down and talked to me. He apologized for the argument we'd had earlier in the day and then we talked about how we could have handled it better. All this was initiated by HIM, not ME.

A couple o' things he said yesterday:
"I see that you've changed, I just can't believe all the hype just yet. I need to know its for good."
"You don't see yourself as a victim here ... do you?"
"Wouldn't your life be easier without me?"

And something a friend of his said to him about me:
"I know how vague you can be at times. And with TFC not knowing what's up or down with you right now, she's still being really supportive of you and your career. That's pretty cool of her. Pretty cool." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Just my 2 cents here TFC... when you stop feeling like a victim in this situation.... you will stop being a victim. Your H not believing the "hype" yet is normal... and he shouldn't until it is proven to him.
Your H should not have had an affair... not because it hurt you...but because it hurt him. You got bit by the very snake that you invited into your M... sad but true. But I doubt very highly that his friends would give a rats butt if they thought he had an affair of his own.
I still think that your wavering as to how to handle this and your lack of patience (last week you posted that you were going to plan B and then changed the post) is a detrement to you here. Remember that a FWS or WS is no bargain for a partner. There are easier roads out there for any BS to take than to deal with the baggage that an affair brings to a marriage.
Your H is testing you... in some ways you are doing well... but in my opinion, in the one area where you need to stand tall, you are falling short... patience. You get opinions here TFC... but find something off when he is getting opinions from those he trusts. And you say that opinions don't belong on your marriage (yet I suspect that would only include opinions that YOU don't agree with) and you end your post with ... an opinion from one of his friends.
Most likely you will continue to dismiss any criticism of your handling of things...and obviously that is your right...but I will again ask you as to why the majority of vets are ignoring your thread...is it because your situation is so perplexing that they can't help you... or is it something else...attitude.
Just my thoughts.

MEDC

1. I don't feel like a victim. I don't feel like any of this was done TO me.
2. I am being as patient as I can and I have stated before that I realize that patience is something I need to work on - and I'm trying. Obviously I'm wavering ... there are a lot of mixed signals here and it can be very confusing. I want to do what's best for my M and it is difficult to know just what that is.
3. "Remember that a FWS or WS is no bargain for a partner. There are easier roads out there for any BS to take than to deal with the baggage that an affair brings to a marriage." - Then I suppose that neither of us are a bargain. But we are married and have a family and still love each other, so I think its worth trying to save.
4. I get opinions here, he gets them from his friends. I think we have both done a good job of not allowing the opinions of others to make our decisions for us. (A perfect example is me deciding NOT to do Plan B.)
5. I can accept criticism of how I'm handling things, and can admit where I have faults. But I think that you read me wrong, or maybe I present myself wrong. I am not self-righteous, indignant, or perfect.

Since you keep mentioning that everyone is "avoiding" my thread, maybe we should just ask? I would like to know if all the vets think that I have an attitude problem so that I can change my wording to reflect my feelings (as I do not feel anything but confused, lost, concerned, willing, etc.).

Others would strongly disagree with me on this... but I don't look at you as a BS... I know your H had an affair...but the only betrayals that I see are...

Your affair.
His betraying his own morals.

What I do see is a FWW that has been bitten by the very thing that she invited into her M. I liken it to having a fight... don't blame the other person for punching you in the nose after they have absorbed punches from you. In that case... even though you have a bloody nose, you are not the victim, but the instigator. Would it have been better for your H to turn the other cheek and not hit back.... yep... it would have allowed him to remain on the moral high ground. But how it impacts the person that brought this into the M in the first place, IMO, does not rise to the level of betrayal.

And I never said "everyone" is avoiding your thread...I said the "majority" of vets.

Some folks think of themselves as superior to the rest of us and they’re quite certain they’re entitled to lecture everyone else on their transgressions. Unfortunately, they have only one mindless theme they spout again and again. Some folks think helping consists of bashing others whenever they find someone vulnerable.

Some folks have only one view of the Christian ethic of redemption...and it involves burning at the stake. Some folks write as if they were filled with righteous indignation at another’s faults – they’re the ones with so little empathy, they vie to cast the first stone.

Some folks wrap a lot of words around their need to hurt others and call it “tough love,” but it’s really just narrow-minded, pompous posturing. Some folks call their vilification of others “insightful,” but it’s really just intolerant ranting. They call what they do “straight speaking,” but its only intent is to crush other people’s spirits. Some folks’ ego are fed by such things.

In short, some folks are trolls in a different guise, but they’re just as destructive and just as immoral.

Stay strong, TFC. Except for the trolls, we're all here for you.

lh.... fo

time for LH to go back on ignore.... my only person on the list...
TFC... you can take my advice or follow LH's... two different schools of thought. He thinks he is right.... and he does offer you good advice frequently...I just disagree with his take on things. Judging from the responses that you had on your threads earlier on, I would imagine I am not alone in that thought.

MEDC

Evidently, some folks respond to criticism with "fo." I bet we all know what that means, don’t we? How very intellectual. I guess some folks can't defend their ideas; all they can do is swear at people with other opinions. That is so pitiful. Very sad.

LH - Did you get a chance to catch up on what's been going on the last 24 hours at my house? Do you think that I've pissed off some of the vets with my "attitude"?

I DID read your post on what WH is doing, TFC. I apologize. I let myself get sidetracked.


********

TFC, I can’t see your WH’s facial expressions or body language. All I have to go on are his words, but I actually think I see some hopeful signs in what you’ve relayed WH said and did over the past day.

Here’s why I hope the glass is half-full.

First, he's noticed a change in you and he likes what he sees. That's the effect Plan A is supposed to have on the WS. Further, he told you this while he’s at home with you instead of it coming from a distance while he’s “safe” out on the road. That’s a shift, in my mind, from the way he’s been acting.

Second, you didn’t say how you heard of his friend’s comment about you being cool. If he relayed that to you, it is quite intriguing and possibly a very positive, though slight shift in WH’s thinking. It was on his mind, TFC. Someone provided feedback to him about what he’s doing and how he’s treating you…and he’s retaining that feedback. In my mind, that’s very positive.


********


That remark can be a suggestion he’s setting you up and intends to bail out on the marriage. It may well be a threat and you reacted very appropriately to the threat of a separate bank account just yesterday.

However, this might not be what it appears to be on its face. Let me explain why.

It’s one of my observations of the species that when we are hurt, we revert to the child from which we’ve ostensibly grown. When a three-year-old is punished, they later need reinforcement of their parent’s continued love. They want to be held and cuddled, sitting on a parent’s lap. So it is with some people into their adulthood. They act out, then seek confirmation they are still held in high esteem.

To bring this back around to where I started, you can read a remark that seems to push you away as asking for validation you can forgive the acting out. “Wouldn’t your life be easier without me?” can also be, “I’m being an a$$. If I push you away, will you come back…will you be able to forgive me? Will you still love me?”

It could also be far more sinister. Look into his eyes, TFC, so you will know.


********


He's still justifying his affair. It's all about revenge and he's stuck on that concept…or is he? Yeah, he probably IS to some extent. Heck, we human beings will defend our actions and our point of view to the last extremity…way past the point at which it would be in our best interests to admit another point of view.

That having been said, “You don’t see yourself as a victim…do you?” might have been an invitation to say you both were victims (two wrongs don’t make a right) but you could both could help heal each other…or something like that. It’s not quite reverse babble, but it could get someone thinking.

Actually, if he says it again, I’d bring out the point that it’s your daughter who is the victim in all this. You can tell him you did wrong, that he did wrong, and your baby girl is the one who’ll have to bear the brunt of it if her father and mother can’t find a way out of the downward spiral. In other words, don’t necessarily agree with his premise…turn it back on him and make him think.


********

Now, something has happened about the date night that I didn’t catch. Why were you waiting for a call from the sitter to tell her she wasn’t needed? I’m trying to read between the lines of what you wrote, but it seems to me he was still planning to take you somewhere. What happened here? Something happened behind the scenes?

You wrote that he (grumpily?) said you could come “if you wanted to.” TFC, please understand us guys sometimes don’t speak with all the eloquence we’d like to sometimes. If the glass is half full, he might have been asking you to reconsider, without actually saying the right words.

More about the date if you can explain a little more about what's happened.


********

Okay, let me see if I can bring all this together.

There are times when WH seems to be acting in accordance with a nasty little plan to push you into a corner where you have no option except to file for divorce. That is not unknown. It's happened before. He would be able to protest (to his friends) he did everything he could to save the marriage but you wouldn’t let him. It would justify in his mind everything he’s done and every hurtful word he’s said to you was your fault, not his.

Then he backs off. He comes to you in the evening and apologizes for an argument and actually (and calmly?) discusses how it could have been handled better. “Handle it better?” TFC, I see a a tacit admission in that. He's saying there IS a future for your relationship. After all, why bother handling something better if there is no tomorrow?

Okay. Now note these things happened the day after you countered his attempts to gaslight you…a day when you did a little reverse babble…a day you set a boundary and wouldn’t let him speak disrespectfully to you, right?

The day after you did this, he says he likes the changes he sees in you. Coincidence? Maybe. There are a lot of things he says and does for which we MB’ers aren’t seeing the full context…but it seems to me the glass might be half full just based on what we do see.

Another item. Orchid remarked, and you agreed, you are not in sync right at the moment. Your WH’s actions and words are stirring your emotions like a Mixmaster does cream pie filling. On one day, he seems hateful…the next he seems conciliatory after an argument.

Mixed signals indeed. They confuse and hurt because they’re not understood. But…mixed signals can be a sign he’s moving (slowly) off a position where he saw no hope of continuing the marriage, can’t they?

Okay, here’s where I’m going with all this. TFC, can you find it within yourself to be a little more patient and wait a while longer to see where things lead? There’s no guarantee, but success could be right around the corner, relatively speaking.

Hey, TFC, you’ve done a great Plan A. He’s noticed! He said so!

How about if you continue that stellar Plan A for a little while? However, you only do Plan A when he’s being a man instead of a petulant child. You continue to fight the gaslighting and his disrespectful words/actions by keeping your boundary against that firmly intact. Remember, he’s seen the changes and he likes them.

TFC, can you do something like a “180” by using that simple boundary to ward off the WH, while you connect with the husband who might be peeking out again? With a “180,” and with the application of your boundaries, when you retreat from him, he tries to get closer.

See how it works? You do, I admit, detach a little bit from WH if you do something like this, but I also think that’s a healthy thing to do at this point. Keep it under control, but no one will deny the WH is a hurtful alien and taking crap all the time is very enervating. Turning around and walking away from the spiteful words in a “180” might give you the strength to go on a little longer.

I don’t know if this is possible, TFC. As I said, I can’t see his face and I can’t watch his body language. Only you can do that. I can be seriously misinterpreting what’s going on…but if there’s a chance he’s making those first tentative gestures to come out of the fog, even though they appear to be mixed signals at this moment, do you think you could steel yourself to stay with this a while longer?

Is this a good moment to suggest you read Ark’s “Be Still” thread again?

I know this all seems contradictory. I fully understand you need to define your boundaries and set a time limit on how long you’re willing to put up with a lack of commitment to the marriage. I think you’ve seen already how effective a boundary can be, both in its effect on WH and your self-esteem. So, if there are signs he might be leaning back your way…?

Let me know what you think, TFC. If there are things I’m not seeing, let me know. We out here only see what you tell us about what WH says and does, and how you two interact. It’s easy sometimes to misinterpret something you say and I think I should be asking for clarification far more often than I do.

Hang in there, TFC. MB folks are here to support you and we’ll be there with you no matter what you decide to do.