Hold,

You did the quote thing on my post and inserted Soolee's words into my quote box.

Tricky man.



Just the first one...the rest of the quotes were mine.


I think making that boundary, that you won't engage discussion until she's reviewed the financial limitations is reasonable and respectful. As well as saying, "I believe you tell yourself you ask because you want it for one or both of our kids. I choose not to believe you anymore. I know you know we cannot do it all...and we don't sit down and enthusiastically agree ahead of time what we are able to do, equally, for our kids...and I know you won't hold yourself to not asking above and beyond what we agree to, either. I know you can work and make more happen for our kids. I'll believe you really want this for our kids when you make the money to pay for them."

Sturdy, true and loving...owning your own stuff. See, not predicting...focusing on what your real issue is...and one is that she keeps you aghast at her asking for what she knows is not possible. The Daddy-Please syndrome. Keeps you in Daddy form...and I'm asking you to stop it.

Just stop. Because it's what gives you that sin of pride and martyrdom which keeps you in self-hate.

Take away a single part and the whole house of cards fall...and you stop your cycle. Just one part destroys the loop. Think of all that energy you'll save from slaving to keep that loop in play, Hold.

And no lies that she will distract/deflect. She can't. You just stay on target, listen and repeat. She can try to distract/deflect...unless you willingly accompany her, won't work...don't go there.

Like me...

you still did not answer if historically, you felt like a failure when she would bring requests you couldn't afford to provide.

You don't have to answer, Hold...I can't make you. And it's respectful if you want to say, "I choose not to answer how I feel when she does this." I see you deflect/distract with predictions...turning to her instead of looking inward for my question.

Does that snap your suspenders?



I wasn't clear enough in my slots naming...sorry. In the spreadsheet, you have a Row for each thing...Utilities (might have sub-rows for gas, electric, etc. with a subtotal), Car Maintenance...

Similarly, having a Row "Family" with three sub-rows...DS15, DD12, Marriage (not my order). And it's subtotalled (by month (columns) and by annual total...might even have actual versus budgeted.



So at the time you guys booked the Bermuda trip for DS15...did you say, "I'd rather not do this until we figure out how much we're spending on Family for the year (or just those summer months), which includes us and DD12."

And if you didn't, you can now. You can stop now with the "We can't afford" and assert yourself. "I'm not supporting Bermuda, now, either, since I want balanced spending between our children" and find out if DW thinks that's reasonable...

Is it reasonable to spend as much on a 12-year-old (isn't she 13 yet?), as it is a 15-year-old? When she's 16, she'll be the only one at home...usually when the younger sibling rakes it in (in my experience as the younger sibling).



Do you refuse to not do that which you will resent? Or do you refuse to not agree to anything either of you aren't enthusiastic about? Or do you refuse to spend...your quote above. Your choices...every one of them...choices from your intent, your goal...

which was to keep hating yourself and loving your kids...and surviving your wife for another six years.

Can you see where your real goals (the ones you are acting from) are in conflict with reality and your stated goals?

The "Marriage" row (slot) was half you and half her...you were addressed. My belief is that The Union comes first...and we are half that union. Because we're in there, equally, we address the Union first...our children second.

So I hear you definitively saying that you will NOT allow any of your ENs to be met within the Union, doing acts of love for the Union...and that you focus on getting yours addressed separately from The Marriage.

Whoa. You want money spent on you, for you, for IB, to harm the marriage...to feed yourself what you are choosing to deprive yourself of within the marriage. How on earth do you do that emotional math?

Okay, you can snap my suspenders (Ha! Don't wear those!)...I see where you said you do feel like a failure and you will move the boundary up to a healthy requirement. I'm sorry I didn't read your whole post and rather, began addressing bit by bit...

which can bite. I'm sorry.

Will you move the boundary up? Really break the daddy act to bits (please) and make it totally equals in your head...she's so capable, amazing and she can choose...and she hasn't yet. She might. Make sure you take a moment to rephrase all responses into choices.

And you cannot be the bad guy...you can be the healthy NO guy (that's part of the father's role, when it's healthy)...and you can say, "Parenting is singular (to your DS and DD). Your mother and I know we can only parent together...and at times, we screw up. We know to talk first, then inform you of our joint decision. She didn't do it this time. It happens."

No bad guys...children love your no's...later. They may hate it at first--and by nightfall, they sleep securely in knowing you're willing to enforce boundaries with "no."

Which is why they are crazy about you.

And saying a healthy "no" to your wife--maybe that's why you won't do it from love and respect...she, too, might become crazy about you.

Sure would screw up your plan to self-hate your way through life, eh?

Congratulations you no finally choosing not to hope she'll give up her unhealthy payoffs.

LA

I guess it's a matter of perspective. You say you are a failure at work, yet you have a job. You keep the job. You bring home a steady paycheck. You do not feel entitled to a bigger job without doing the requisite work. You do not belabor tasks that you think are "beneath you". You seem to work and play well with others.

From my corner of the world, I don't see that as a failure. I would have been beyond happy with a spouse who did that. (I would have even been happy with a SAHD spouse--I had the earning potential to support the family.)

So in whose eyes are/were you a failure? Yours? Mrs. Hold's?

aHA!!!

She's got you there, hold!!!!!!!

I have been reading this thread, I think, forever. It whenever I get disguested, I get sucked back in...

First HOTI:
Your wife is a compulsive spender. (yeah, I think) She thougth she was marrying an ATM. Just like an alcholoic who thinks they have keys to the bar- Or a gambler who gets "mad money" at a casino- Or a non compliant diabetic in a candy store, You can not give the addict free reign.

You can not say, " How MUCH alcohol should I let my addict have per day?" The answer is ZERO.
The gambler -- NO CARDS
The diabetic -- NO raw sugar.
(believe me, my 49 year old diabetic sister sits there with no teeth in her head gobbeling on candy- all - the - time.)

and the compulsive spender-- NO BUDGET.

Your wife HAS a problem. She has commited theft and fraud, she would have gone to jail if she did these things at work! This is the first indication that she is an addict.

And she is in full swing addictive mode, still.

Sorry, HOTI, but you are the reason she still can.
Someday you will be divorced, or worse not here and she WILL continue the spending habits (why wouldn't she? she got away with it for years and years.?)

I have no idea how compulsive spenders recieve recovery- but I know that they have programs for it. She is not happy spending- tho she looks like it to you-

You are miserable. Your family is in chaos. The best thing you could do for yourself or her is to get her to stop the addiction.

Locate information on rehab for spending. Is there any way that there can be an intervention? Apparently your W thinks there is nothing wrong with her behavior.

There is help.
She can no make up what she has destroyed. Just like an alcohole can not "fix" things they have destroyed. But they can start over.

Debtors Anonymous

but there are in house treament plans also available.
and IC's who specialise in this disorder.

Good luck to you.

Yikes. I read this thread and I wonder if I have the same problem. Of course, I haven't spent like I have read about Mrs. Hold but I've been known to make a purchase or two that I *know* is not in the budget. And then I beat myself up over it and figure out how to earn the extra $$$ to cover for it.

Example: Last year, I was thinking about buying a flat screen hi def TV for the house for Christmas (a present for everyone). I would have loved to have a 52" really fancy big name brand model (even though I dont' want TV..LOL) but did some research and found a lesser brand, 37" for something far less than $500 (vs the $2500 on the TV I was drooling over...)

Then I did some more research and realized I could purchase it through my employee's program with several different retailers and get a 10% discount. But I had to put it on that card (the only specific credit card I own...I have ONE visa which I use for emergencies, and THIS one retailer card).

So...I did it.

But then I went into my online banking and set up automatic payments over 4 months that fit my budget and allowed me to pay off the TV. I got 90 days interest free so I did wind up paying some interest on the 4th month.

Still, it *was* an impulse purchase and I've been known to do that from time to time.

I wonder how people really are able to be so disciplined to stick to a budget. I know what I did is a far cry from Mrs. Hold but the smaller things add up and I wonder if I too contributed to our financial state of affairs.

Wow. That is golden.


Yes, I feel like a failure when she ask for things I cannot afford. I feel the same way when my kids express desire for things I can't afford. It is part and parcel of my shame-based existence.

No.


No, I will keep agreeing to things I resent.


Exactly.


Well, I don't really expect my needs to get met at all. But to the extent they do get met, then yes, I expect they will get met separately from The Marriage.


It is easy. I was a math major. When things don't seem to add up, just add another dimension.


S15 had trouble getting up this morning. His Mom said "from now on, you must go to sleep earlier". He replied "but that is when Dad comes to my room (after his homework is done), and I like him coming to my room, and I don't want to kick him out".

So he does love me. And enjoys time with me. But I guess Dad will have to be the mature one and get out of his room earlier on weeknights.


Nah, no worries there. Our cooktop is dying. Down to 2 working coils. So for Hanukah, I decided to get Mrs. Hold a new cooktop. Found one very reasonably priced on Ebay. Won the auction last night. She was SO THRILLED this morning. She was literally jumping with joy. The only way she is happy with me is when I buy her something expensive. Makes me want to puke.

Which is OK. The only time I was thrilled with her was when she had sex with me. Which made her want to puke. So we are even.

Except that sex with her no longer thrills me. So there is no longer any way for her to motivate me to be thrilled with her. Which eliminates any interest I might have in motivating her to be thrilled with me.

LA, I don't want her to be crazy about me. I don't want her to love me. I want her to lust after me. And if she won't / can't (which seems to be the case), then I want her to hate me. As much as I hate her for not lusting after me. And as much as I hate myself for not being the object of her lust.

Yes, exactly, both of ours.

Hold, you and your wife have your own crazy version of Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe going on. Check that movie with Elizabeth Taylor out. Who knows it might make you laugh, cry, both.

Is assuming you are a failure in her eyes a DJ? Should you just be concentrating on WHY you are a failure in your own eyes?

I don't see the expense in the cooktop...I see you really seeing what she wanted the most and choosing that for your gift. You can DJ it another way...and you said you hadn't seen her delighted with you in a long time...

and she has been...and you refuse to acknowledge. Doesn't make it so, sir. Makes you just hiding it from you.

You can't motivate her delight, her being thrilled...you can be present and aware, and in reality that your choices ripple...that you don't control outcomes...only actions.

I know you don't want her to be crazy about you...so you continue to DJ, to not say "no" or make respectful boundaries...'cuz you don't want to be crazy about yourself, either. You don't want to soar...too scary. You want to keep her making you feel the routine, habitual feelings...failure, inadequate, rejected.

I know, I remember. I swore I wasn't doing it, either.

You don't control her choice to love you...you definitely have a part in her feeling loving feelings. Not all or nothing. And she does. She fears you as much as you fear her. She feels like a failure as often as you do. Rejected...and she sets herself for your rejection, time and time again. Reinforces she's right...

and so you both spin. Only takes one to stop the downward spiral.

Puking is a form of deep rejecting, I believe...it's how our bodies signal us when our emotions cannot be stuffed down anymore, when our minds can no longer justify and distract, and when our spirit, sickened from our self-abuse, finally rejects...because we really hate the spiral, the spin...not what we really want...not really...just what we continually do to self-sabotage.

Often, folks hate what they lust for...feel like slaves to our own lust...so you get a double win that way. If only she would change...

And she gets delighted with the way you love her, anyway. Yeah, she's the monster here...you betcha. She's the one who points out how others see you, like you...she shares. She didn't withhold her joy over your gift...alleviating something she was struggling with.

She meets your ENs for FC, DS...she acts out what you will not...what you dread...?

You were her hero this morning...maybe she thought she was thrilled WITH you. A real H would tell her your truth...that you are not and hate yourself for giving her the gift which gives her joy...and that you hate her and yourself. And you like it that way, want to keep it that way.

But then, to tell her is an act of intimacy...would lessen your feelings of rejection without you hinging telling her on her response. Instead of telling her what you are solely responsible for...your stuff.

You chose to give a loving gift without love. She doesn't know that. She felt loved, cherished, cared for and understood. That's her love language (and mine as well). You can continue to DJ it about money...and miss the symbols. On purpose. Keeps her the villain and you the martyr that way.

LA

I never said she was the monster. Or the villain. For years I have said only that we are incompatible. She is a good person. I used to be a good person.

I understand I am the villain. Because I do what I do knowing it causes pain. To both of us. And I choose to do it anyway.

I am a cutter. Cutting my soul. I don't see myself ever stopping.

What I have stopped is being a real H to her. What I am doing is trying desperately to hide that fact. Makes it pretty stupid of me to admit it on a public forum.

Ahh, yeah I remember that. Yes, that's one area where trust is broken. BUT, it took a very long time for Hold to assert and put effort on his part in taking control of the money. He felt trapped or stuck or unable to "rock the boat" at the time because the "lack of sex" in his marriage at the time defined it for him.

Or rather gave Mrs Hold all that control. She sure has a lot of the blame, but Hold also has his part. But in the end of it all that effort to find blame, the issue was not immediately handled.

Actually, Hold, what you've done is find a *pseudo*-public forum where you can vent these emotions and to a certain extent, wallow in them. So you're still hiding the fact in your "real" life. That's one of the enticing things -- and thus one of the dangerous things -- about the internet. We can find places to express our "real selves" without any real danger - sure, there are people who will say nasty things to us, deserved or not, but we don't have to engage, we only have to take what we want from the internet experience.

I only hope that you are actually gaining something positive from the interactions here, and working up to some positive action in your life instead of just soaking in it.

I've been reading your thread for some time now, but really haven't had anything constructive to add. I sympathize with your angst, and feel anger on your behalf for the way your wife has apparently used you. I can empathize with your depression, too.

However, I also find myself wanting to give you advice one of my best friends gives me on occasion. An ex-marine, he rarely minces words. Here's what he tells me, verbatim. "You've had your three laps in the pity pool, missy, and you're getting wrinkly. Time to get out, I'll get your towel."

At some point, Hold, you really do have to *decide* you're done living life so negatively, and take a step in the other direction. You'll likely find you have people in your life who care about you and want to help, but they're waiting for you to take a step because they know it's something you have to do for yourself.

Part of that is explained in the book, No More Mr Nice Guy. I think you read it before. The Break Free Exercises in the book is VERY hard to do for Nice Guys (NG).

I too have thought that by having a great sex life with my wife, that I would have that magic to propel me to more achievements and successes.

Yet, despite having accomplishments, I still felt not good enough. And the more I want that sex to fix the feeling inside, the more I got frustrated when I was not getting the fulfillment in SF. I spent many years focusing on the lack of sex in my marriage, my unmet SF needs.

I even put less importance to finance because my mindset was that I could always make more. Eventually, finance becomes an issue because wife became SAHM, the business was closed, and the spending remained as if we were still generating such income. It also became more of a pressing matter when I realize that my earning potential is finite.

Anyway, many books and forums later, the NMMNG book had a line something about "I am the only person in the world responsible for my needs, no one else." I was totally against this thought in the beginning, especially towards SF. But I eventually come to realize the truth of that, and our sex life now is much better than what it was, but still have plenty of room for improvement.

It's been said many times here in MB that "change from within" and that is something I had to do, and left me with "hope" that wife would want to make changes for herself.

One more important point is that I change for my own reasons. And this lead me to be in the position to "choose" and be in the marriage because I want to; because I evaluate all the values is it, even when sex is one factor that is not near perfect, on the whole, it is acceptable to me.

Likewise, I am able to emotionally "let go" if my wife "chooses" not to be married with me.

Eventually, finance becomes an issue because wife became SAHM, the business was closed, and the spending remained as if we were still generating such income.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE WOMEN???????

You're not the villain, either, Hold. You're two humans in a human marriage...each doing harm and love, working out your stuff.

Still a real H...and she's a real W. Her H. Your W.

I believe you stopped being the H you really liked being before...absolutely. What would you say are the key differences? You didn't have healthy boundaries before...and you aren't enforcing healthy boundaries now...that I can see. I know you see yourself as different, though...before, were you giving to get, to achieve balance, to get her to stop/start?

Incompatible? How very alike your issues are...as you've seen. Consider compatible dysfunction? Like Functional Dysfunction.



You've succeeded every day, Hold, in many ways...and choose to focus on your lack. You know this...part of the choice to emotionally cut and do harm to yourself and others.


BUBBLES...

Do you remember I Love Lucy? One of the situational comedic themes she had going was financial infidelity. Portrayed as cute, entitled, attractive...full of funny justifications and assumptions. Since Shakespeare, most comedies are tragedies with timing.

Modeled wives as treating their husbands as alternately daddies and little boys...and growing up, I decided that was what love was...how women were supposed to act...saw it in my mothers and my father...wives pushing the financial limits like children...and calling their spouse juvenile.

Only my father was portrayed as the spend-thrift, the one always pushing the boundaries...and I married a shopaholic. Quite a mixed bag...certainly one attracts the other...to work it all out, over time, together.

And some do. And some gain forgiveness and live new...make new choices...and others repeat and repeat...until they stop (or don't)...

Gotta tell you...my false payoff was in the superiority of being a miser, better at money, and I got to manage my DH, shame him for his fiscal irresponsibility...what I mess I was and yet, least not that one way, eh?

He bounced checks and I didn't take away his check book. He didn't record atm withdrawals and I didn't take away his atm card...didn't brainstorm POJA with him...I, too, kept that addictive cycle going, playing my part, reaping my own twisted rewards.

I believe this is the sin of pride God speaks about. Not what we really want...very destructive and abusive, blocking our relationship with God in different ways. And with others. And does harm.

Which is why God made no one on this earth in more control of others...even though we can experience life as if they are...that we are done to...when in reality, we don't do what's only our part...eyes on the perp at all times.

So we repeat.

My answer to your question, Bubbles.

LA

Yes, we are perfectly matched. Perfectly calibrated to push each others' buttons. Capable of tolerating indefinitely what others would find intolerable. Given how little we knew of one another before we got engaged, it is amazing that we found each other. It is as if each of our dysfunctions was screaming out to be joined to a person ideally situated to cause the other person maximum pain.

I imagine God was hoping we would choose to heal each other. That we would choose to stop causing the other pain. I guess God will have to be disappointed.

I wouldn't guess God. He's at work, with purpose and love.

Wouldn't it be terrifying if God wouldn't heal us until we earned his healing? What if he waited until we went first?

Even as you deny yourself joy, intimacy, harmony and fulfillment, so do you deny God. For he weeps when we weep, remember? Feels joy as we feel joy...in our relationship with him, he feels...

Can you imagine your children filled with such self-hatred, these wonderful creations of yours? To me, disappointment doesn't come close.

Old territory...I know. Already shared the impact of my previous self-hatred and how the consequences keep coming...and will come...not in my control.

It's like you both have discovered you have this disease and you stand looking at the other, the cure, and refusing it. You can't choose for her...

what is at the heart of this thread is your choice to not heal, anyway.

Healing enough to see you weren't worthy of hate at any time...all along. Just chose to experience life as if you were.

Unfathomable to me why when you knew better you chose not to do better. To reject joy (as you did this morning with your gift), to reject reality, to suppose it instead...

just so you can keep experiencing rejection with every breath.

I would love MrsHold to be brave and strong right now, come to MB, and hear if she is choosing not to heal, for those same reasons, too.

In the habit of pain...lots of threads here on MB about that habit, breaking it, changing marriages and lives. Different ways. So many choices.

My prayer remains constant...for your marriage to experience a clean slate, a rebirth, when you realize you fulfill your fears and they are still not real.

Inflecting more pain on yourself and your marriage when you fear pain is irrational...just shows you that's not what you really fear.

So rejection isn't what you fear (because you engineer it). So, is it to be loved, accepted and respected? Do you fear that? Because that's out of your control...always has been...others choose...and so many love, accept and respect who you are.

Do you fear loving, accepting and respecting yourself? Like a misstep you might accidentally take?

I'd have to consider Satan's work of tempting you to keep yourself in chains for he has a huge fear of you, if you break free.

LA

There is no longer any way to stop the downward spiral. I cannot imagine ever choosing to stop rejecting her.

Even if she chose to stop rejecting me, I am no longer open to her. I won't allow her to stop rejecting me. I will withdraw so far she cannot reach me, and then blame her for falling short.

She can't win. Neither can I.

Just like I like it.