Marriage Builders®
Posted By: holdingontoit Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 04:07 PM
Last month Mrs. Hold applied to join a local version of a weight loss competition modeled on the tv show The Biggest Loser. She was not selected, but they offered for her to join the "shadow" team which meets once a week rather than 3 times a week. When she went to sign up for the shadow team, they announced that one participant had dropped out and she could be on one of the "real" teams. So she signed up. For 8 weeks she will be competing to see which team can lose the most weight. After 11 years of weight gain and no exercise, I am proud that she has chosen to take this step to try to become more fit.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 04:09 PM
Wow, Hold, just wow. I knew that your changes were contagious!
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 05:02 PM
Good for you Hold for leading the way to a life you want. As long as you're leading because you want it for yourself; and not in hopes she will follow.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 05:13 PM
That's awesome! I agree, she wouldn't have done this without all the work YOU have been doing. Way to go!
Posted By: CuthbertCalculus Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 05:27 PM
That's really good news! My wife and I are fans of The Biggest Loser tv show, and to do a local version of it takes making a commitment. This is a big step for her.

One thing we like about the TV show is watching people reclaim their lives after years of unhappiness and passivity. I think this is big step for your wife in reclaiming her life and happiness, and even if she doesn't fully realize it yet. She is actually doing something now and not wallowing in passivity as she has been!

I agree with the others that she was most likely inspired by you and your efforts to do this.

I hope it works out really well for her... and by extension for your marriage!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 05:40 PM
JM:

No worries there. Mrs. Hold's complaints lately are along the lines that I ignore her, spend no time with her, etc. So these days I am not doing anything in the hope "she will follow".

We no longer fight about sex, as I have given up on initiating.

If I had to guess, I think she applied for the contest to get herself into shape for her next relationship. I am happy to accept the "benefits" in the interim.

She complained when she heard me saying "I love you" to my father on New Year's Day. She complained that I never say it to her anymore. I told her I stopped because I felt disrespected whenever I said it. She always reacted in a way that indicated she felt it was immature to be overly romantic. She then mocked the tone of voice I used when I said I love you to my Dad. I replied "see, you mock me for being vulnerable, so I stopped being vulnerable around you".

She said it had been 10 years since I was romantic toward her. I asked her "what about the time I made you the book of shared memories for Valentine's Day? Or the time I wrote I love you in lipstick on the bathroom mirror for our anniversary? Or the time I made you rose petal ice cream from scratch? All of those happened here in CT, which means that happened within the past 7 years. And in none of those cases did you give me any indication that you appreciated the romantic gestures, so I eventually stopped making the effort." That quieted her down.

And yes, at this point I would rather be right than be intimate.

The other thing we fought about lately was vacations. She kept pestering me to sign up for a vacation with the kids in April. Every day she looked up cruises and dude ranches and bugged me to sign up for one. Despite that they each cost thousands of dollars we don't have. I kept telling her that we have outstanding credit card debt and I don't feel comfortable incurring a big expense. Especially since it is S11's Bat Mitzvah next fall, so we will rack up more debt for that. Mrs. Hold was very disappointed. I suggested that if she wants vacations, she needs to pay for them herself. Or help me pay down our debts. She went ballistic. I told her she doesn't have to get a job but I am tired of being treated as a failure because I can't pay for fancy vacations.

Last weekend we went to Home Depot to get some hardware to install a shelf in S14's room. She walked up to the kitchen remodelling department and said "look, new cabinets are only $75 per month, we can afford that". I replied "that is just cabinets. Would you be happy if we only did that, or would you insist we also get new countertops and appliances?" She said of course if we get new cabinets we need to get new everything, which she estimates would cost $250 per month. I told her I can't afford any of it, and certainly not all of it. Needless to say, she was in a pissy mood the rest of the day. Needless to say, I spent much of the day playing PS3 and ignoring her.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 05:56 PM
Hey, hold, first of all, congrats to your wife for making a change. Whether or not she has an agenda behind it, it's a change for the better in terms of her health and well-being, and hopefully that will have a halo effect for your marriage.

I don't have a whole lot of weight to lose, but I'm not getting any younger and things are shifting around. LOL Plus, all the financial and relationship stress is taking its toll. So I've also embarked on a rigorous weight management and fitness program. I've been active my whole life and in fact, have some fitness training certification, so I can handle this on my own. But I tell you this because, although I am at the end of my rope re: my marriage, I am not doing this in preparation for my next relationship. I *am* doing it so that I can feel better about myself---and hopefully that will serve me well if things do complletely fall apart this year for us. Perhaps your wife has some of the same motivations. But as I said, the halo effect could be good for both of you.

Happy New Year!
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 06:05 PM
I can tell that you're making progress for yourself.

I can also detect a lot of the resentment being release. Keep them pouring out because they are toxic if you keep them within.

I also see her complaints and constant testing of the boundaries you're enforcing for yourself. I've read the same patterns: vacations, home remodels, and more spending in general.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 06:25 PM
JM, I hope this is progress. I am certainly holding to my boundaries. She asked me to just tell her if we are not going on a vacation in April, so I told her "we are not going on a vacation in April. I wish I could afford to go. But I can't."

Most of the time I am pleasant and supportive toward Mrs. Hold. I congratulated her about making the team. I bragged to my secretary about her. I then told Mrs. Hold what my secretary said as a way of reflecting. I compliment Mrs. Hold in front of the kids. She is on the parent's board of S11's swim team and I always compliment Mrs. Hold on the work she does there.

Still, the kids see the truth. S14's suitcase did not arrive when the kids flew back from Florida last weekend (it came on the next flight). Before we were told the bag was on its way, I joked that this was a horrible fate since he would have to allow his mother to take him shopping for new clothes (he hates shopping). He replied "why don't you just drop me off at the mall with your credit card, you can probably trust me with the card at the mall more than you can trust Mom".

And when I told D11 how proud I was that Mom made the weight loss team, and that Mom was beautiful in her current perfectly proportioned shape today but would be healthier if she lost some weight, D11 looked at me like I was crazy. She said "yes she is beautiful, but Mom would look even better if she lost weight." Mrs. Hold said "beauty is on the inside". D11 looked at her like she was crazy and said "yes, that is where it starts, but it has to get through more or less layers to get out!"

It doesn't matter why Mrs. Hold decided to do this. It only matters that she did. Let's all hope she follows through. The kids and I have offered to be as supportive as we can be. We agreed to rid the home of all unhealthy foods. We agreed to operate independently in the morning and not rely on her to help us get ready for school when she has fitness classes. And we agreed to accompany her to the gym if she wants company.

I am truly pleased and proud she made this decision. I did not hesitate to give her the money to join. And I hope it works out well for her no matter how it works out for us as a couple.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 10:40 PM
"She then mocked the tone of voice I used when I said I love you to my Dad."


This says it all. Unbelievable. What an immature, selfish woman to react this way when you are voicing reverence for your father. YOUR FATHER! I am speechless, really.

Let her put her fat a$$ on the line in that program. I hope she finds some self worth. She is a truly loathesome woman.

I am truly glad you see her for what she is.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 10:44 PM
Also, your kids are awesome!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 10:53 PM
Well, I would not agree she is loathesome. She is not. She is just hurting and lashed out from her pain. But I will say it pushed a hot button for me when she chose him as the target of her jealousy.

My father had throat cancer late last year. He spent 2 weeks in the hospital and another 2 weeks in a hotel nearby recovering. He is only now getting his voice back. I spent the entire Thanksgiving weekend with him and my Mom at the hospital. Seeing him lying there waiting for the operation was torture. He is 79 and just got over cancer. We don't know how much longer he will be with us. So I want him to hear from me how much I love him while I do have him around. For her to see that as a weakness in me is unfortunate.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 11:07 PM
But my gosh, your father has been through hell with his cancer, and then she mocks you for telling your frail, old, father--a man who deserves all love and respect--that you love him?

She has an incredibly rough personality.
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/09 11:10 PM
I would describe her as being extremely insecure.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 04:13 PM
The important thing is that she has decided to take this step. I hope it proves beneficial to Mrs. Hold and a good model to D11.

As for how she treats me, well, I don't think it is surprising she wishes I would treat her as I treated her before and as I still treat others. Not realistic, but not surprising either.
Posted By: CuthbertCalculus Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 04:23 PM
Hold, in my opinion, it seems that Mrs. Hold is very reluctant to take charge of her own life... she seems to be very passive and let events overtake her.

For example, she wants you to cherish her as you used to, but she is unwilling to do anything to make you want to do so. I'm sure her weight has been bothering her, but she has thus far been unwilling to curb her eating habits and engage in any regular exercise to do anything about it. That's why this is such a big step for her, and I hope, too, that she is successful in this arena, because that success would motivate her to make changes in other areas of her life... it has the potential to both motivate her and to give her some confidence in her own ability to do anything.

If indeed she does succeed at this, I think it will have a beneficial effect on your marriage... but first things first, eh? Support her in this effort, here and now, let everything else sort itself out in due time, and you'll see what happens. That seems to me to be the approach you're taking, and I think it's the wise approach to this.

Anyway, good for her, and regardless of everything else between the two of you, I think you're right to be proud of her. \:\)
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 05:02 PM
Hold,

This is awesome..just be prepared for any built up resentments she might have come out during this time..especially if you begin to show her some form of affection again.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 06:48 PM
Should Mrs. Hold become hot again, this will up her power standing in the relationship. Also, she will receive a large amount of support and attention from this program. Things could get difficult for you, Hold, if her ego kicks in from it all.

I'm glad she is attempting to lose weight, and you love her enough to which a svelte Mrs. Hold would delight you. A small suggestion would be to not give up the huge amount of progress and self-worth you gained in this fight.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 06:52 PM
Why should HOTI's self-worth be tied in any way shape or form to what Mrs. HOTI does? I understand the warning you're giving him Easy. My question is more of a rhetorical one for HOTI.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 07:14 PM
I do not see how her losing weight harms me or affects my self-worth. I would feel better about myself is my wife were thinner.

It will not give her more power over my behavior. If she thinks she can hold her newfound attractiveness over my head as negotiating leverage, she will be disappointed. What is she going to say "if you don't take me on a vacation, I will go back to being fat"? Then she can go ahead and eat all the Oreos she wants. I have lived with an overweight wife for 12 years. I can live with one for another 6.

If she wants to date other guys, or leave me for another guy, that is her business. I am not going to make concessions to keep her around. To the extent that her losing weight gives her more options, good for her. Let her explain to the kids that we are getting divorced because she wants to be with someone else. In a wierd way, I view that as a desirable outcome. Maybe that would be the kick in the pants I need to get my life in gear.
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/09 07:30 PM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I do not see how her losing weight harms me or affects my self-worth. I would feel better about myself is my wife were thinner.


Contradictory statement alert. You had it right the first time in that your value (self-worth) does not change based upon her weight. You would only feel better about yourself if she was thinner if you're relying on external validation to determine your value. This of course contradicts what you said in your first sentence. I know that you and I have the same book that talks about self-validation as a requirement of becoming a whole person. I strongly suggest you work on self-validation as it will ameliorate at lot of your wife's insecure behaviors.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 06:06 PM
That is not what I meant.

If/when Mrs. Hold loses her weight, becomes svelte, starts looking good and attractive again, her stock will go way, way up.
She will have guys hitting on her, she will have more opportunities that are available to a good looking woman as compared to a frumpy one.

She will become more enthralled with her own victory and less
so about the issues in the marriage.

Hold has always mentioned his concern in a divorce would be that
Mrs. Hold would lose weight, find some other rich guy, and have a wild time on vacations in the Bahamas. It is a rational thought.

"She treated me like crap, let herself go, and now some other guy is going to walk right in and get the wild, sexy person."

My only point is, this can be a factor in her losing massive amounts of weight.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 06:10 PM
Maybe so, but assuming that all happens, I hope HOTI recognizes that she only treated a symptom (and likely temporarily at that), and that she still hasn't cured the deeper issues of what made her put on the weight and withdraw into her own selfishness in the first place. If she does walk out of the marriage and into a new R with someone else still carrying all of her old baggage, God help that poor b****ard.

I hope HOTI does a victory dance.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 06:38 PM
 Originally Posted By: EasyE
Hold has always mentioned his concern in a divorce would be that Mrs. Hold would lose weight, find some other rich guy, and have a wild time on vacations in the Bahamas. It is a rational thought.


Not my concern, my prediction. Although perhaps in prior years it would have been more of a concern.

At this point, I am with Seabird. If she loses weight, finds another guy, and leaves me, I am happy for her. I only hope that they get married so I don't have to worry about alimony.

I am not concerned if other guys want her. Why should I begrudge her happiness if I am free to seek it for myself? And as long as she gets to be the "bad guy" with the kids, well, that cuts down on the pain of divorce considerably. Let's face it, "Dad stuck by you all those years while you were heavy and then as soon as you lost weight you dumped him" is not going to endear her to the kids. Plus, if she takes an eligible guy off the market, that improves my odds with the available women!
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 06:46 PM
Major transformations can be devastating to a relationship in
unexpected ways.

My ex was/is a very attractive blonde. Her looks were not an issue. It was her behavior--she treated me like dirt, like a human wallet, and after awhile rarely wanted sexual contact. I was going nuts, because I was very attracted to her. But all she cared about was "getting things done". We lived on a ten acre property in the San Dieog area with horses, etc, and a huge house. She never wanted to go to the beach, or go out and have fun, just work, work, work.

I was her workhorse and provider of all monetary means. We would work until dark on a Saturday night, and then she would fall into bed exhausted, always tired, always brooding that things aren't getting done. And on top of that, she volunteered
constantly, taking on other people's challenges and requiring my help and again, moneary support to do so. But there was nothing left for me, as far as she went.

After having enough of being her stooge, we separated and headed for divorce. And what diod she do? She moved to the beach!
Became a beach girl with a bunch of new friends and parties and fun! Something I had wanted for us from the very beginning.

She got pregnant by some guy off the cuff.

Last time she called me, about five years ago, I told her never to call again.

It hurt, and still does to think about it.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 06:50 PM
Hold, you are sounding healthy and good.
Glad to hear it, buddy!
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 07:00 PM
 Originally Posted By: EasyE
Major transformations can be devastating to a relationship in
unexpected ways.

My ex was/is a very attractive blonde. Her looks were not an issue. It was her behavior--she treated me like dirt, like a human wallet, and after awhile rarely wanted sexual contact. I was going nuts, because I was very attracted to her. But all she cared about was "getting things done". We lived on a ten acre property in the San Dieog area with horses, etc, and a huge house. She never wanted to go to the beach, or go out and have fun, just work, work, work.

I was her workhorse and provider of all monetary means. We would work until dark on a Saturday night, and then she would fall into bed exhausted, always tired, always brooding that things aren't getting done. And on top of that, she volunteered
constantly, taking on other people's challenges and requiring my help and again, moneary support to do so. But there was nothing left for me, as far as she went.

After having enough of being her stooge, we separated and headed for divorce. And what diod she do? She moved to the beach!
Became a beach girl with a bunch of new friends and parties and fun! Something I had wanted for us from the very beginning.

She got pregnant by some guy off the cuff.

Last time she called me, about five years ago, I told her never to call again.

It hurt, and still does to think about it.


Yours is a somewhat similar story to mine. It tend to reinforce my theory that the person that we are most attracted to is inevitably our worst choice and that we must work against our natural attractions to find someone who is actually good for us. I'll also add that another of my theories is that while opposites attract, they make lousy partners.

EasyE, the past is dead and cannot be made-up for. The debts of the past cannot be repaid. Your best revenge will be your personal success. This same advice applies to Hold.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 07:10 PM
 Originally Posted By: booka
EasyE, the past is dead and cannot be made-up for. The debts of the past cannot be repaid. Your best revenge will be your personal success. This same advice applies to Hold.


Better yet, let go of the grudge for there is no need for revenge.

Know that you made a choice to move on with your life, and the past can no longer hurt your future. Sure the memories can hurt, but you can choose not to recall them every time.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 07:28 PM
Oh, no no no...

my life is amazing, I have an awesome relationship now with
a very beautiful woman.

My sole point is, things can hurt when people you love change on a dime.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 07:53 PM
 Originally Posted By: EasyE
Last time she called me, about five years ago, I told her never to call again.

It hurt, and still does to think about it.


Do as I say and not as I do. Let it go. If she found happiness, that is the best you can hope for.

A few weeks ago I called the only guy I still keep in touch with from growing up. He lives a thousand miles away, and I had not heard from him in a while. He is divorced. As soon as the divorce was finalized, his ex married a wealthy doctor. They live it up in a big house, and take his kids on fancy vacations, etc.

He is not wealthy, but he lives in a modest apartment with his girlfriend, who I understand is retired military. They have plenty of sex. She cooks for him. He claims to like her very much.

But all he could do was focus on his ex. How little sex they had while they were married. How she slept with other guys as soon as they separated. How she remarried as soon as they divorced. How she went for a guy with big money.

I told him to let it go. Why should he care how she lives now? If the step-Dad can provide material items to his kids, good for the kids. At least the doc married the ex so my friend is off the hook for alimony.

And most of all, my friend has a dream woman of his own. Treats him well. Not stuck up and materialistic. Has plenty of sex with him. Isn't his life now a whole lot better than back when he was married to someone who belittled him and refused to have sex with him? I told him he is living my dream for what life would be like if I ever got divorced. I wanted to reach through the phone wires and slap him silly for not seeing the obvious. Or for not appreciating it.

As I said, wholeheatedly support Mrs. Hold in this endeavor. I hope she is successful. I hope she loses weight and adopts a healthy lifestyle. I hope she can continue to make better choices long after the competition ends. And if that ends up triggering our divorce, I hope I will wish her well.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 08:09 PM
I should have worded my posts better. I felt I had been taken advantage of. Like I had been duped. I don't wish her well, but I am ecstatically happy with my life now.

Back to the point, though. Change, even GOOD change, can wreak havoc in unexpected ways.

I used to advise my friends when we were all dating about the "25 year rule", in that if you date someone under 25 years of age, watch out! Because they change so quickly and don't know what they want, you will surely be in a pain if you fall in love with a girl under 25 years of age.

Anyway...carry on. It was a weak point.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 08:42 PM
 Originally Posted By: EasyE
Anyway...carry on. It was a weak point.


No, it was a valid point. Thank for the warning. It is exactly how my friend feels. And I think in the past the way I would have felt. I would have focused on the unfairness of her behavior.

Today I am more focused on my own role in this. And on my own personal growth. Which is not going well. And needs my effort. More than worrying about Mrs. Hold. Which accomplishes nothing.

I came here to share good news. I thank everyone for their warm wishes for Mrs. Hold.

I also thank everyone for their words of warning. I think they are valid predictors of a reasonably likely outcome.

And frankly I am proud of myself for my reaction. Which I think is a relatively mature and healthy one. I wish the best for Mrs. Hold. Even if that brings major changes to our lives.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 08:51 PM
Heheh... For most of my M, my XW bounced between being just a little overweight to being very overweight. She'd diet or exercise for a little while and take a few pounds off, but they'd eventually find her again. When we first got together, she didn't maintain much of an appearance. She could wear scrubs to work (she used to be a therapist) or even just really, really casual attire ( stretch pants and oversized shirts). Some weeks she'd wear the same thing two or three times.

Over the last couple of years she moved into hospital administration as the marketing director and started dressing nicer. Then about 6 months before she announced she was leaving me, she started hitting the gym hard and the weight began coming off fast. She also started dressing a bit more provocatively; lower necklines, tighter pants and skirts, and more makeup. She enjoyed the compliments from coworkers and she acknowledged that I was diligent in my compliments and encouragement.

Then she left me. I was bitter that she was taking so much effort in looking good after she left me. I loved her before she was thin. Before she paid attention to her appearance.

Then about 6 months ago I noticed that she has been looking really, really tired. Really heavy lines in her face, dark circles under her eyes, and the makeup is getting caked on. She's smells like she's bathing in perfume. We had a parent teacher conference a few weeks ago, and we were enclosed in the same small office. I was struggling to breathe.

She's been having some health related issues and I just figured that was part of it. The other day, my mom saw her for the first time since the summer I believe. I asked my mom, "I really don't mean to be tacky, but does she look old to you?".

Now please understand, my mom has no animosity toward her and they still communicate. Mom answered me kind of sheepishly, "I wasn't going to say anything, but the word I was thinking was 'harsh'. It's like the years have hit her in a sudden rush.

Then one of my best friends ran into her at their temple. He called me later and said the same thing. He described her as looking VERY middle aged.

I would be lying if I said I didn't get some satisfaction in that. I don't wish it on her, and I'd still be fine if she looked like Ms. America, but I do kind of relish the notion that she's might be disappointed by the reactions she going to get from other men now that she's single.

Not to mention that after two c-sections, and breast feeding two kids, the inside of the book isn't quite as promising as the cover, if you know what I mean.

Imagine a couple of sweatsocks filled with sand.

I know. I'm a terrible man. I sleep just fine at night thank you very much. \:\)
Posted By: star*fish Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 09:11 PM
Hold,

Congrats to msHold for taking a step, ANY step, to improve her appearance and confidence....goodness knows you've been punished long enough for her poor opinion of herself. I DO think your reaction was mature and healthy...no small feat given your usual reaction....so feel good about that too. I also think Easy shouldn't apologize for his warning....it IS, as you've acknowledged, a likely and reasonable expectation that she'll use whatever improvements she makes for a future relationship and not for you. People who lose mass quantities of weight, often go just a little bit crazy with the added attention and become very self absorbed. But I get the feeling, and it almost makes me smile, to think you might actually meet that expectation with a little bit of hope, since you wouldn't have to bear the burden/loss of standing with the kids, to end the marriage yourself and seek your own happiness. I think you see this as a way to "get off the hook"...and I can't really blame you for that. I'm not sure how healthy that is....but it sure is handy if you want "out" and are too scared to do it.
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 09:13 PM
Hold, you are showing some growth and I congratulate you. Keep working on yourself and someday you'll be the kind of person that you want to be. But, you will need to work on it every day and be like the shark, constantly moving forward. Okay, I'll let someone else let loose the the lawyer/shark comparisons!

D. Seabird, I am curious now as to why you were attracted to your XW at the beginning?

I have very little feelings of any kind left for my XW. In fact, I'm close to forgiveness. She is still extremely difficult to deal with, but I have some strategies for doing so now and have learned hot to deal with her abundant passive-aggressive tendencies. To this day I feel her continued diagnosis is BPD. Her family elevates dysfunction to a new level. Her backside looked very wide last year the last time I saw her. Her hair has always been thin and takes an extraordinary amount of work and product to produce an acceptable result. She will no doubt be bald before me. I do not miss the bathroom door covered in a thick layer of hairspray and dust. My house is nicer, cleaner, and far more organized.

Think about what I said earlier about my personal success being the best revenge. Just what kind of revenge is my personal success? My idea is the motivation to live better without her than I ever did with her. Our circles don't currently cross but if she heard somehow that I was doing very well in my life without her, would I pause to gloat? Maybe.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 09:25 PM
Dutch - Don't get me wrong. I still found her very pretty, but I always wanted her to take more care in her appearance. And until a few years ago, I had my own battles with weight. I still have to maintain a regular exercise regime, because anytime I stop, the pounds manage to find me right quick.

I also found her fun, and funny, and generally very, very "cool" and nonjudgmental. I fell in love with her because she once told me while in conversation (while we were still just dating), "I'm not going anywhere. If this ends, it's because you decided to end it."

For a guy who was accustomed to being dumped, this made me feel "safe".
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 09:37 PM
Dr. Seabird,

Thanks for sharing. One of the books that I have says that we are attracted to people who can fill our unfulfilled needs from childhood. Being slightly privy to yours (and in the midst of a huge thread-jack), I can readily understand why you were attracted to you. If you'd like some amplification of my thoughts, email me. But this does point out that in looking to have out childhood needs fulfilled by a partner, we neglect to consider their personal and psychological defects, as well as they unfulfilled childhood needs, which are often different from our own and often different from what we can provide.

I know now that the women I am innately attracted to are the worst for me and I try hard to address my attractions from a logical, rational, and reasonable to get the big picture.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 09:49 PM
Wow, you guys are making me feel emotionally mature for the first time ever!

I have 2 kids with Mrs. Hold. So in some ways we are spending the rest of our lives together no matter what happens (God forbid it turns out otherwise). I don't want her to be miserable the entire time. That is not good for my kids. And no fun for me.

Maybe I am being overly optimistic. Maybe I will be jealous of her new life. Maybe I will worry that my kids will like their rich step-dad more than they like me.

But for today, that is not the case. I think my kids love me and always will (especially if Mrs. Hold leaves me for another guy - I only hope he tries to buy his way into their good graces, more for my kids). I think my life will be easier if my ex-wife is happy.

And I think I have the same work to do on myself regardless of how she fares.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 10:09 PM
Maybe we should pare down the speculation--Mrs. Hold just started the program, and there's no telling what the outcome will be. And Hold isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

I've got another point to make, though:

Hold, with your education and career, your ability to pull in a tidy income, your proven ability to go the distance with a woman (ie, marriage), you are to women what a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model is to men.

And funny enough, the "going the distance" part is crucial. Women are totally tuned in to what other women find desirable.
The fact that a woman saw fit to marry you proves you have been pre-tested, and thus desirable. Even if you get a divorce this will always be the case.

Add all of that to your trophy case!
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/09 11:41 PM
 Quote:
And frankly I am proud of myself for my reaction. Which I think is a relatively mature and healthy one. I wish the best for Mrs. Hold. Even if that brings major changes to our lives.


And I am very very proud of you as well!

And also of Mrs. H. Good for her for taking the risk and publicly declaring the goal of losing weight; and major major kudos to you for being supportive! You, my friend, are a good and faithful husband.

And this too:

 Quote:
Wow, you guys are making me feel emotionally mature for the first time ever!


LOL!!! Yep, you are certainly doing good.

Seabird: inside of the book not as nice as the cover? sweatsocks filled with sand? for shame!
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/09/09 07:05 PM
 Originally Posted By: jayne241

Seabird: inside of the book not as nice as the cover? sweatsocks filled with sand? for shame!




I don't wish any ill on her but I do wonder if reality matches the expectations she had about being single again.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/09 12:31 PM
Mrs. Hold has gone to 2 group workouts. She is sore but pleased with the emotional support. She wears her team t-shirt whenever she works out and she says everyone at the community center is very supportive when they see her. She likes it.

As for us, she says she feels I don't love her or even care about her. I told her I do care but whenever I express my feelings I either get ignored or mocked for being to weak / vulnerable - so I stopped expressing my feelings to her. I told her I am not the strong silent type, and not capable of becoming that way, even if that is the kind of man she wants to be with. She agreed she wants that kind of man. But she also wants the overt displays of affection.

I told her she can't have it both ways. She can't ask for sweetness as a means of reassuring herself I am still committed to her but then disrespect me for not being stoic. Perhaps I can learn to express my emotions in a manner that is less off-putting to her. But that will require communication on her part along with more positive reinforcement and less disrespect. If she is going to demand that I read her mind as to what she wants and then insult me when I make a mistake, well, that is a game I am not interested in playing.

The precipitating event behind her complaint was the drive to the airport last Saturday. It was snowing and my car couldn't get out of our driveway. We tied a rope to her truck and pulled my car up the hill. After we disengaged the rope, we discovered that my car's passenger window would not close. Obviously I couldn't drive to the airport and park my car there for a week with the window open, so I asked her to drive me to the airport. She as reluctant but complied. On the way there she started crying. She couldn't believe that I was "making" her drive me to the airport (we called some car services and none could get me there in time). I told her to drive slowly and carefully on the way back and we discussed which route was likely to have the best plowing, least hills and twists, etc. We called the kids and told them what to do if Mom didn't get back before bedtime. We toyed with the idea of her getting a hotel room and driving back the next day but it was supposed to snow all night and turn colder so we thought the next day might be even worse (as it happend it was, the next day there was a 13 car pileup on the road she would have taken). So there didn't seem to be any way for me to catch my flight unless she drove me and then drove herself home that night.

When I called home from here she complained that I failed to protect her. I told her I see any other way to catch my flight, and with a lousy economy and my job in tenuous circumstances I didn't want to mess up this trip. She said her father would never have let her mother drive. I asked her if she wanted me to treat her more like her father treats her mother. She quickly said no, she doesn't like the way he treats her in other ways.

So I think we are back where we started. She is not happy, but not willing to leave. Same as me. Although her doing this weight loss thing is a hopeful sign that maybe one of us is willing to make changes.

Oh, and a divorced guy we know (parent of one of S14's friends) is also in the weight loss challenge, but on a rival team. He asked Mrs. Hold if she wanted to be his workout buddy. She asked me what I thought of that. I told her I would be going to the local firearms store when I got back. She seemed to like that reaction. She said she thinks it was innocent on his part and that he just doesn't know anyone on his own team. I said I am not interested in some divorced guy working out with my wife 3 times a week. She agreed there was a risk. She said "I have never spent that much time with a guy in my life where he did not end up hitting on me. It has never not happened." I told her that is why I am opposed to it even if he does have innocent intentions today. No way he could help but have urges spending all that time with her. Or at least, I am not interested in her testing the hypothesis.

No, I am not really thinking of getting a gun on his account. Guess I will have to monitor the participants' blog.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/09 08:06 AM
Cool! She still cares enough to want you to care whether she gets hit on; and you still care enough to not want her to get too close to a divorced guy. She also came out and told you about it, rather than hiding it and perhaps getting involved.

Except I just remembered that sometimes at the very beginning, won't WS's start telling their spouses about "that guy/girl at work" etc? Yes, monitoring is a good idea.

You paid her a huge compliment here:

 Quote:
told her that is why I am opposed to it even if he does have innocent intentions today. No way he could help but have urges spending all that time with her.


I am sooooo glad you are being H&O with her about why you don't show affection like she wants. Do you think she's starting to hear?

I wonder, is the atmosphere in your home a bit better nowadays? Your posts sound like it might be.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/09 10:29 AM
 Originally Posted By: jayne241
She still cares enough to want you to care whether she gets hit on; and you still care enough to not want her to get too close to a divorced guy. She also came out and told you about it, rather than hiding it and perhaps getting involved.


Yes, it is nice that she told me. She wanted to get a rise out of me. I gave her what she wanted. See, I have learned something from MB.

 Originally Posted By: jayne241
You paid her a huge compliment here:

told her that is why I am opposed to it even if he does have innocent intentions today. No way he could help but have urges spending all that time with her.


I used to give her these types of compliments all the time. Means nothing positive to her. She knows men want her. She doesn't take that as a compliment. She takes it as an indictment of men.

 Originally Posted By: jayne241
I am sooooo glad you are being H&O with her about why you don't show affection like she wants. Do you think she's starting to hear?


No. Negotiating for me to provide more affection and affirmation and conversation and recreational companionship would require her to offer behavior in return that she remains unwilling / unable to offer. Until she is ready to go there, it makes no difference if she intellectually understands why I am not providing what she wants.

 Originally Posted By: jayne241
I wonder, is the atmosphere in your home a bit better nowadays? Your posts sound like it might be.


No. The atmosphere in my head is slightly better. But that is based on my withdrawal, not on us getting along better.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/09 01:14 PM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
The important thing is that she has decided to take this step. I hope it proves beneficial to Mrs. Hold and a good model to D11.

As for how she treats me, well, I don't think it is surprising she wishes I would treat her as I treated her before and as I still treat others. Not realistic, but not surprising either.
True, but the wonderful thing is that, now that you have your boundaries, however you arrived at them, you are directly connecting your actions to HER actions. She is now seeing for the first time how HER choices are backfiring on her.

There is hope that it will be the impetus for her complete turnaround. Yes, it may be too late for you and you may never recover your love - but you might, and even if you don't, you'll have a nicer mother to your kids to deal with for the rest of your life.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/09 05:55 PM
 Originally Posted By: catperson
you'll have a nicer mother to your kids to deal with for the rest of your life.


That is my hope. A happier more productive and fulfilled mother for my children.

I told her no one gets any sugar unless they pay the toll. I may not get any sugar, either, but I certainly am not going to tolerate anyone else getting any while I am paying the bills. I told her no one gets any on the side while I am paying the mortgage, car payment, hair colorist, etc. If she finds someone who is willing to pick all that up for her, we can talk. She laughed, so I don't think she was insulted. I think she liked that I was being so territorial.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/09 06:52 PM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
 Originally Posted By: catperson
you'll have a nicer mother to your kids to deal with for the rest of your life.


That is my hope. A happier more productive and fulfilled mother for my children.

I told her no one gets any sugar unless they pay the toll. I may not get any sugar, either, but I certainly am not going to tolerate anyone else getting any while I am paying the bills. I told her no one gets any on the side while I am paying the mortgage, car payment, hair colorist, etc. If she finds someone who is willing to pick all that up for her, we can talk. She laughed, so I don't think she was insulted. I think she liked that I was being so territorial.


Interesting (but not surprising) that she looked favorably at you defining your boundaries materially/ monetarily.

I guess this is the biggest No Duh! understatement of the year, but it sounds like you discovered her Love Language and communicated effectively with it. Don't know if it's worth it to you anymore to try and frame all of your communications with her like that, but might it might feel nice to think that you've at least figured out a way to talk to her.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/19/09 04:12 PM
Mrs. Hold lost slightly over 2 pounds the first week. Hard to tell if she is happy or disappointed. Since she did not exercise before this, she has plenty of room for fitness improvement. She will probably be gaining muscle mass fairly quickly at first given the huge increase in exercise (she went every day last week, yesterday the team had a 2 hour workout, and she was back there today)). So even though she might not lose so much weight, she will lose size and reallocate from fat to muscle. Much healthier.

Good for her. I am proud of her. And she is right on pace to lose the total amount she hopes to lose over the 8 weeks. She isn't looking to win the contest. Just using the team spirit and accountability to facilitate a changed lifestyle. I hope it works for her.

Funny anecdote: the ladies on her team were discussing which brand of sports bra they use. Mrs. Hold announced what she was wearing, and apparently it was something that one of the women had never heard of. That woman walked up to Mrs. Hold, grabbed the front of her shirt, pulled it forward and took a look down her front. The woman then exclaimed "wow, you have big ones. I guess what you are wearing isn't relevant to me." I am still trying to figure out how she hadn't noticed my wife's chest before looking down her shirt. I am sure every heterosexual guy notices my wife's chest from about 3 blocks away!

Today is Mrs. Hold's birthday. I got her a cashmere scarf and a carry bag, both in her team's color. Tonight the kids and I will take her out to dinner. Not the big celebration (or gift) she wishes for. But more than appropriate for the circumstances.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/19/09 06:23 PM
Did you get my reply from last week? Do you still have my direct email address?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/19/09 06:27 PM
Yes, thank you. Was out of the country. Just got back. Will respond privately.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/19/09 06:43 PM
Good going the "Jabba" is getting less weighty. Perhaps it will change her other bad attitudes. We can only hope it makes a slight change for the better in all your lives.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/09 07:41 PM
Mrs. Hold was pleased with her birthday festivities. She was surprised I made the effort. She is the mother of my children. She deserves recognition on their account. D11 was happy to see I got Mrs. Hold flowers. That makes it worth the cost.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/09 08:26 PM
Hey, and not bad, two pounds is a significant start with her program.

It will be interesting to see what happens if/when she loses
a lot more.

Even twenty pounds will make a heck of a difference.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/21/09 12:18 AM
Weight loss, exercise, and improved eating habits are all welcome. So is a wife who is happier inside her own skin.

As for me, I got a nice ego boost the past few weeks flying back from Geneva. Both in December and January I was fortunate enough to sit next to an attractive middle aged female on the flight back. In December, she was a UK citizen visiting her daughter in NY who suddenly took ill. We chatted a little and at the end she thanked me for helping distract her from her daughter's condition. Last week, the woman sitting next to me had a bad cold. She kept apologizing for sneezing and coughing so we got to talking. At the end of the flight she said I was the most entertaining flight companion she had ever sat next to. No, I did not ask for names or contact information for either woman. But it was nice to be treated as an interesting person.

And no, I did not only talk to the women next to me. On the flight to Geneva in November, I sat next to a guy who works as an economist. We discussed his work over breakfast. I asked for his card, and e-mailed him after we got back to the US to ask for a copy of the report he was working on. So I was just as chatty to the males as the females. The only time I didn't chat to my "neighbor" was the flight where I sat next to a Swiss couple who couldn't be bothered to talk to an American too unsophisticated to speak French.

And as for being "territorial", on New Year's Eve we went to a party thrown by a girlfriend of Mrs. Hold. The friend is Swiss, and she wanted me to pick up a few minor items while I was there. I sent a message to her facebook page asking for the spelling of the name of what she wanted. And then when I got back, I sent her a message that the items were in CT, but she would need to talk to my wife about delivery. When I told Mrs. Hold, she got huffy and wanted to know why I was sending messages to her friend (who is married to a dentist who adores her and treats her well and earns alot more than I do so Mrs. Hold has nothing to worry about even if I had any interest in her friend - which I don't). Anyway, I guess possessiveness runs both ways.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/22/09 12:54 AM
Interesting point, regarding chatting up both men and women. Why do we so often treat the other sex as "different", or somehow mystifying?

My paradigm has always been to speak to women no differently than I would another guy (we're talking relative strangers or those we don't know too well, of course.) No pageantry, or extravagant courting tactics, or profound protocols based on addressing the opposite sex. It takes the edge off, and makes conversation much
easier. Save the extravagance for the next steps, when there is a mutual interest.

When I was dating, I wouldn't make a formal affair of asking the woman out. "Would you like to have dinner with me?" Ack.

Instead, I would do as I would with anyone: "Let's grab a beer later on."

Keeping it light and interesting works well in generating interest.

Anyway, the woman on the plane was actually saying that she found you attractive and she would date you in favorable circumstances.
Good job, Hold! A couple of years ago you were fretting that nobody would date you if you were single. You've come a long, long way.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/22/09 03:56 AM
 Quote:
Interesting point, regarding chatting up both men and women. Why do we so often treat the other sex as "different", or somehow mystifying?

My paradigm has always been to speak to women no differently than I would another guy (we're talking relative strangers or those we don't know too well, of course.)


Me too. But I find that here, especially, if you aren't careful ppl will misunderstand if you mention talking to a member of the opposite sex, even if it's just talking to them same as talking to anybody, not flirting. The fact that you mention it might be seen as a red flag, so I understand why Hold felt the need to clarify... Unless I'm projecting! (Sorry for speaking for you, Hold!)
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/22/09 02:46 PM
 Originally Posted By: jayne241
The fact that you mention talking to the opposite sex might be seen as a red flag, so I understand why Hold felt the need to clarify...


Exactly. I didn't want it to seem like I was only chatting up the females. On one of the flights I was sitting next to an attractive younger woman who wore a tiny top with most of her chest hanging out. I didn't say a single word to her except once I asked to get out to the aisle.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/22/09 11:26 PM
 Quote:
When I was dating, I wouldn't make a formal affair of asking the woman out. "Would you like to have dinner with me?" Ack.


I think the cringe-worthy part of statement is the "with me" bit. However I also have to admit that part of me misses the old-fashioned courtesies in being asked out. My husband when asking for our first date said "Would you like to go to dinner next Friday?"

I see both Hold and his wife changing dramatically. It is a case of one person changing, and this causing further changes to the relationship. Good work!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 05:04 PM
Mrs. Hold just sent me an e-mail saying she recognizes how supportive I have been lately and she appreciates it. In the past I would have been all excited and hoping her reaction might lead to sex. Now I am indifferent. I am not doing these things for her. I am doing them for myself. To be the person I wish to be. Not for her reaction.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 05:11 PM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Mrs. Hold just sent me an e-mail saying she recognizes how supportive I have been lately and she appreciates it. In the past I would have been all excited and hoping her reaction might lead to sex. Now I am indifferent. I am not doing these things for her. I am doing them for myself. To be the person I wish to be. Not for her reaction.


That's the best thing I've ever seen you write. \:\)
Posted By: CuthbertCalculus Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 06:53 PM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I am not doing these things for her. I am doing them for myself. To be the person I wish to be. Not for her reaction.


I think it's good that you are doing these things for yourself, to be the person you wish to be. And not doing them to try to get something from her in return. That is a step in the right direction for you.

However, nothing says you cannot enjoy the fact that she notices and appreciates what you're doing. In a way, it is like she is noticing and appreciating you being you... Perhaps she is starting to see the you that you are trying to become.

Does that make any sense?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 07:32 PM
CC:
In theory I could do as you say. In practice, for me, it would not be prudent. Even if it is an accurate reflection of the "new me", appreciating her view is too close to caring how she views me. To hard for me to appreciate her Admiration without craving more. Better not to "taste" her Admiration than to develop a taste for it.
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 08:21 PM
hold


 Quote:
To hard for me to appreciate her Admiration without craving more. Better not to "taste" her Admiration than to develop a taste for it.


You have certainly come a long way, and that is good to see..

However, this comment shows you still have some growing to do, it's not about craving her admiration, but learning to appreciate her comments for what they are..compliments.

Is Mrs Hold drinking a lot of water? if not, she needs to drink more, it will help keep her hunger pangs down some and help her lose any water weight..a friend of mine did that recently and lost like 13 lbs in a week.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 08:31 PM
 Originally Posted By: ThornedRose
However, this comment shows you still have some growing to do, it's not about craving her admiration, but learning to appreciate her comments for what they are..compliments.


I know. I have plenty of growing to do. A mature healthy integrated me could appreciate the compliments from her without yearning for more. I am not there yet.

I am getting better at accepting compliments from others. Not yet ready to allow myself to be open to compliments from Mrs. Hold. Too much resentment left. If I let myself "hear" her compliments, my reaction is to think nasty thoughts about what she should be doing instead if she really wants to show her appreciation. From her, verbal compliments feel like scraps and crumbs. I am not interested in scraps and crumbs. I know those thoughts are within me and not part of the content she is transmitting. But they are within me. And I would rather ignore her compliments than deal with the fallout within me.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 08:48 PM
When I was in my separation, I was in a stage of anger for a long, long time. Absolute hatred unlike I'd ever felt for anyone before. And it kept piling up, one thing after another. It felt like the XW was purposely finding things to make me angry about. Some things I'm sure she was. Some things it was just me.

My mom and my sisters kept telling me, "You really need to get past that." It bothered them a great deal seeing me angry. Yet I knew it for what it was; a stage. I knew I'd get through it. But in order to do that, I had to literally get through it. Like a tunnel.

HOTI - I think you're doing a great job. As long as you keep moving forward like this, you'll get to where you need to be.

I think that ignoring her comments and keeping your walls up makes you feel safe. She has a long way to go before those walls ever come down.

Don't feel rushed. Process it all at your own pace. Just don't quit. Think of it like a long-distance run.
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 08:57 PM
hold,

 Quote:
I know. I have plenty of growing to do. A mature healthy integrated me could appreciate the compliments from her without yearning for more. I am not there yet.

I am getting better at accepting compliments from others. Not yet ready to allow myself to be open to compliments from Mrs. Hold. Too much resentment left. If I let myself "hear" her compliments, my reaction is to think nasty thoughts about what she should be doing instead if she really wants to show her appreciation. From her, verbal compliments feel like scraps and crumbs. I am not interested in scraps and crumbs. I know those thoughts are within me and not part of the content she is transmitting. But they are within me. And I would rather ignore her compliments than deal with the fallout within me.


It's okay your not there yet, but don't be afraid to face those demons within yourself..even IF she doesn't change..it will help you in long run.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 09:13 PM
Thanks for the support. I am working on accepting compliments. Didn't you notice how I related the comment by my plane companion. Not the negative undercutting reaction I had in the past.

So I am getting better at accepting compliments, just not those from Mrs. Hold. Too much other stuff mixed in with hers. Opening myself to her makes it harder to accept those from others. It is like all compliments are trainted by association with hers. Whereas the others can come in and feel positive, as long as I compartmentalize and wall off the compliments from Mrs. Hold.

Not healthy. But necessary. For now. Maybe some day I will be able to accept her compliments without the negative reaction. Maybe that day will even come before we get divorced. But in the meantime I am not going to jeopardize my progress on differentiation by backsliding to where I care what she says about me.

Remember, if I allow the good comments in, then the bad ones can hurt me. NOT ready to permit that. Not by a long shot.
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 09:28 PM
Hold,

I wonder if you might be over-analytical about the compliments. Instead of predicting/anticipating/assigning motives to every compliment, why not experiment and take them at face value with no expectation of further reward. A compliment does not always lead to sex. You might practice returning a compliment. What would happen if you took the day-to-day stuff on a lighter note? This precludes relinquishing control over the finances.

On a slightly different note, I sometimes think my marriage ended because the XW reached some kind of resentment threshold. She once told me she had typed them up to give to her quack-of-an-IC and that they numbered in the hundreds and spanned all 25-years of our relationship. How would one overcome that? I view the formation of a resentment as an initial communication failure. You fail to tell someone how you feel when it occurs and instead bank-up your anger for later when it's impossible from an irrational standpoint to communicate them satisfactorily. You give up you power to her by harboring your resentments. Resentments are like you taking poison in an effort to kill the other person. I don't understand building resentments, I'm simply not the kind of person who does so. I don't deny their existence because I know that my experience will differ from others. You will need to get beyond the resentments to work on you. I'm thinking you need to sit around a campfire at night in a loincloth with other similarly clothed men banging on drums and screaming into the night to purge your pain. You pain goes back to your childhood and has been with you all of your life. It's time to start unloading.

With that being said, it had better be a roaring bonfire this time of year! Try to have yourself a good weekend!

Dutch
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 09:40 PM
 Originally Posted By: booka
I'm thinking you need to sit around a campfire at night in a loincloth with other similarly clothed men banging on drums and screaming into the night to purge your pain.


You keep your sick and twisted fantasies out of this, Dutch.



See HOTI, we tease because we care.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 09:47 PM
Dutch:

I understand I need to let go of the resentment. Can't seem to do so. Obviously, it hits much less hard as regards everything other than Mrs. Hold. So I am basically walling myself off from Mrs. Hold to wall off the resentment. Helps me deal with everyone else without being a seething cauldron of anger, frustration, etc. Won't help my marriage, but I have already written that off. Does help in other areas of my life. Maybe when I get those into better shape I will feel I can afford to go back and revisit how I deal with the resentment. I understand at this point there is probably nothing that Mrs. Hold can do to overcome my resentment. I am not asking her to even try.

I understand that what you are suggesting would be a healthier way to live. I can't do it. Maybe I need to learn biofeedback or something. But right now the chemical reactions inside my body and brain are overwhelming when I deal with Mrs. Hold. I cannot remain calm and lighthearted in the face of them. So I have to avoid the triggers. Which mostly means avoiding interaction with her. Or limiting it to small doses. Preferably with the kids involved.

Did I mention that when the kids were in Florida and we went into NYC and crashed at my sister's apartment, we slept in different rooms? Once we got inside the apartment, she went into the bedroom and I stayed in the living room. We watched tv and fell asleep apart. I could handle the time together out in public. But I could not handle being alone with her.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 09:48 PM
Seabird:

I know you guys care. And I appreciate it.

And I don't think Dutch's fantasy is sick or twisted. I would love to go to one of those guy retreats and paint my face and wear a loincloth and bang drums and shout. I have looked into them before. Maybe this summer.
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 09:52 PM
Darn, I forgot the face paint. Seabird, what was that men's organization that does those crazy all-weekend sessions of running through the woods naked? We had discussed them maybe last summer.

I feel it's hard for a man to act like a man in these confusing times. I have vowed to act more like a man instead of an interested observer.

Dutch
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 10:07 PM
Hold,

One important point to review. Mrs. Hold cannot really help you with your resentments. You own them and you constructed them. They are just like your feelings, you generate and regulate them. You have to work to dismiss them all by your lonesome. The past is dead and cannot be made-up for. It is totally unreasonable to expect someone to make-up for their past transgressions. Forget the past and don't expect to recover anything form it. We're talking about making the rest of your life something that you'll actually enjoy. That's all you have left, the rest of you life. The past is dead and cannot, repeat cannot be fixed. Eliminate any expectations from the past. Work exclusively with what you have now.

I don't care if you sleep is separate rooms or not. Forget about what that means and work on yourself.

Dutch
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 10:18 PM
Awe guys, you're ruining my attempts to bust your chops! HOTI - I was teasing Dutch about having homoerotic fantasies about you in a loincloth in the woods...

It's funnier if you don't have to explain it. Describing it out here in the open just sounds disturbing. Ew...

I did email HOTI about a group like that, but I don't think they do the loincloth and drum thing. It's called The Mankind Project. I have a neighbor whom I like very well recommend it to me last year before my divorce was final. I ultimately decided that I didn't need it, but from what he described, I thought it might do him some good. I also work with a woman who did The Woman Within which is affiliated with TMP, and she spoke highly of it.

Caveat: My own research revealed that some people consider these groups cults. I have no idea what they entail or what goes on during their lost weekends. I was just passing along a couple of testimonials. Take all of that for what it's worth.

Posted By: CuthbertCalculus Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 10:23 PM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
So I am getting better at accepting compliments, just not those from Mrs. Hold.


That is perfectly understandable. Compliments from strangers are without any emotional baggage... because you have no relationship with them. Compliments from your wife have all the baggage in the world, because - however twisted your relationship with your wife is - it is one of the closest relationship you have with anyone.

So, the stakes are higher accepting her compliments. And if you're not good at accepting compliments at all... well, accepting them from the ladies on the airplanes is a step in the right direction.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/23/09 10:52 PM
 Originally Posted By: booka
Mrs. Hold cannot really help you with your resentments. Forget about what that means and work on yourself.


I am. It is just alot easier if I wall off the Mrs. Hold part. That will be the hardest part of the resentment to let go. So I am going to tackle it last. Not asking her to help me let go (my prior strategy which we all know is futile). Not even asking her to stay out of my way. Not asking her for anything.

This morning I felt a lesion on my privates. She took a look at it (she has seen many more guy privates than I have, and she knows more about the STD I feared I caught from her). She was concerned and told me to see the doctor. It was entirely clinical. She touched me, and emotionally I pretty much felt nothing. To me, that felt like progress.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/26/09 09:29 PM
Another example of how perspective is everything.

Yesterday was the Week 2 weigh in for Mrs. Hold's contest. She lost 1.8 pounds, for a total of 4.2. Tied for lowest total with another woman she knows fairly well. They are both depressed that they go to the gym every day, watch what they eat, and "only" lost 4 pounds in 2 weeks. They are most depressed that other people lost more.

I told them they are doing great. That they shouldn't compare themselves to other people. Everyone has different body chemistry. They should be happy they lost weight. Imagine how depressing it would be to diet and exercise and gain weight! I am proud of Mrs. Hold and her friend. But they are not proud of themselves. I see them as admirable and successful. They feel like failures.

Of course, this hit me hard given my Eeyore tendencies. Not so hard that I am considering being less of an Eeyore. But enough that I feel bad about being such an Eeyore.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 01:15 PM
Yesterday was week 3 weigh in. Mrs. Hold lost 1.8 pounds, for 6 pounds total. I congratulated her profusely. So did D and S.

Mrs. Hold is disappointed, because she lost the least (both absolutely and by % of body weight) of anyone on her team. As far as I can tell, she is not eating too much or bad food choices. And she exercises hard every day. So it seems to be a body chemistry thing. She has always been borderline low thyroid. I told her to go to the doctor, bring the list of weight loss contestants and say "I may be only borderline low for the 'average person', but I am clearly low for me - give me something." Thoughts?
Posted By: SeekingWife Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 01:21 PM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Yesterday was week 3 weigh in. Mrs. Hold lost 1.8 pounds, for 6 pounds total. I congratulated her profusely. So did D and S.

Mrs. Hold is disappointed, because she lost the least (both absolutely and by % of body weight) of anyone on her team. As far as I can tell, she is not eating too much or bad food choices. And she exercises hard every day. So it seems to be a body chemistry thing. She has always been borderline low thyroid. I told her to go to the doctor, bring the list of weight loss contestants and say "I may be only borderline low for the 'average person', but I am clearly low for me - give me something." Thoughts?


How much weight does she need to lose? If she is working out (even minimally) every day, and cutting back on her calories, I am surprised she is not losing more--especially if she has a lot to lose total. I would definitely see the doctor.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 01:49 PM
Me, too. I had thryoid problems as a child, was up to 130 pounds as 5 ft tall, and I wore a sweater all the time. That's how it got found out, cos my gym teacher called my mom and said I was wearing a sweater during gym class! So I took thryoid medicine for a year and it all went away.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 02:15 PM
 Originally Posted By: SeekingWife
How much weight does she need to lose?


She won't tell me exactly. But she started at least 60 pounds over the lowest weight she attained after the birth of S14. So at least that much.

 Quote:
If she is working out (even minimally) every day, and cutting back on her calories, I am surprised she is not losing more--especially if she has a lot to lose total. I would definitely see the doctor.


Yes, she is both working out 1 or more hours per day and cutting back on calories. She has only lost 6 pounds and no one else on her team has lost less than 10 pounds. Several of the other paricipants have lost as much in 1 week than she has lost in 3.
Posted By: hanora Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 02:41 PM
Actually 2 lbs per week sounds pretty good to me. And it sounds like a weight loss schedule that is more likely to be maintained and retained than a more rapid one. I think that bouncing up and down on weight is worse than a slow change. That weight wasn't gained in a few weeks and to be successful in the permanent loss of it, it shouldn't go in a few weeks. As a side effect she is less likely to suffer sagging skin if the loss is more gradual.

The thyroid thing might be worth checking into though. It can be sort of a subtle problem. I'm thinking about your daughter too. I wish we had caught it earlier with one of our sons.
Posted By: SeekingWife Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 02:58 PM
 Originally Posted By: hanora
Actually 2 lbs per week sounds pretty good to me. And it sounds like a weight loss schedule that is more likely to be maintained and retained than a more rapid one. I think that bouncing up and down on weight is worse than a slow change. That weight wasn't gained in a few weeks and to be successful in the permanent loss of it, it shouldn't go in a few weeks. As a side effect she is less likely to suffer sagging skin if the loss is more gradual.

The thyroid thing might be worth checking into though. It can be sort of a subtle problem. I'm thinking about your daughter too. I wish we had caught it earlier with one of our sons.


I agree that slow weight loss is better in the long run. But usually, when a person has a lot to lose, the first 10-15 pounds comes off quickly. However, I guess everyone is different.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 03:03 PM
Everything I've ever read has said that you shouldn't try to lose more than 2 lb per week for health reasons. I'm surprised they're pushing for more than that. Also, a lot of people lose a lot at first because of water weight and such things, so it's not an accurate measure of success, those first 2 or 3 weeks. Two months would be a better measure.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 04:21 PM
I agree that slow and gradual weight loss is best. I told her that when I congratulated her on losing weight 3 weeks in a row.

However, she is very disappointed and I fear that she may stop following the program if she always comes in "last". I'm not sure her doctor will give her thyroid meds, but the hope that the doctor may do so helps keep Mrs. Hold motivated to continue the exercising. She is meeting a friend at the gym today, so that is a good sign.

There is also the issue of what happens when this program ends on March 1. We hope Mrs. Hold will continue to exercise regularly, albeit not at the same pace as during the contest. If she "only" loses 10-12 pounds during the 8 weeks, she may feel she is so far from her goal and has made such little progress despite enormous effort that exercising isn't worth the effort. Whereas if she loses a little more during the contest she may feel more motivated to continue.

We'll see. Thanks for the response. Will keep you posted.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 04:25 PM
Maybe you can pick up the slack by coming up with some activities the family can do together. Would be good for the kids to do such things, too.
Posted By: CuthbertCalculus Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 04:29 PM
I agree that if she doesn't feel she has lost "enough" weight, than she will risk being discouraged enough to stop exercising completely. It is easy to drop back into old habits if you don't see any (or "enough") visible progress.

Maybe the doctor can give her a pep talk, even if he doesn't give her the thyroid meds?
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 04:38 PM
Hold, the first time I called Steve, when I explained the EN that I wasn't meeting was AS, for part of the session, he gave me a weight loss explanation that has carried me through the ups and downs. It was the switch, where now I BELIEVE that I can. Hold, it was great to hear how many people do this every day, and keep it off for good. I used to get discouraged and forget that part. I lost 20 pounds, and while I've plateaued a little, I'm still exercising, still moderating my eating, and feeling really good about it instead of discouraged.

I used to GAIN weight every year, and I feel so free knowing that if nothing else, I don't ever have to go through that again. The lousy feeling of clothes getting tight, and even worse, having to put the clothes in the back of the closet to make room for newer ones. I was so happy to give away my "heavy clothes," because I know I will never need them again. And I look forward to giving away the next set of clothes for good, too. I will be free to do that because I won't ever need them again, either. I encourage you to ask her to set up a call with him. Very motivational.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 05:09 PM
Just wanted to caution that thyroid medications may not help her lose weight. At least, it wasn't the case with me or my sister. What it could do is make her feel less sluggish which could then make her feel more willing to be active,possibly.

Important to know that there is a laundry list of possible issues stemming from a sluggish thyroid, weight gain being only one of them. If she is depressed or approaching her 40's or in her 40's - she has more scenarios that would make weight loss difficult.

In my particular case, the only thing that seems to work for me is to cut out sugar, which can be difficult to stick with.

I think she's doing great, though, and if the doctor doesn't want to put her on thyroid medication, maybe wellbutrin would help her stay focused and less depressed. Sluggish thyroid has often been mistaken for depression and vice versa...
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/02/09 05:31 PM
 Originally Posted By: Soolee
If she is depressed or approaching her 40's or in her 40's - she has more scenarios that would make weight loss difficult.


She is depressed, in her 40s, and married to a guy who is also depressed. So yes, there are many complicating factors and obstacles here.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 03:51 PM
It seems I have caught Mrs. Hold's STD. I cannot believe I agreed to have unprotected sex with her. So now, not only have I allowed her to poison the time we have been married, I have allowed her to poison whatever time we may have apart.

What she fears has come to pass. I never judged her for it before. Now I do. Ironic, isn't it. When I was clean, I did not begrudge her. Now that I am not, I feel differently.

The good news is that we no longer have a SF problem. She has succeeded in getting me to stop wanting her.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 04:29 PM
Wait, what???

I'm sorry HOTI, there's so much from your personal story that I think I've missed some things. What is the story about this STD?

Is it something she contracted years before you guys met? Something kept secret? How did you manage not to contract it when you conceived your children?

I don't understand.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 04:35 PM
She had it before we met. The only good thing about having sex so rarely was that we managed to dodge that bullet for all these years. Most of the time I insisted on protection - obviously not when we were trying to conceive but my "luck" held and we conceived on the first try all times. Lately we went without protection because she said she preferred it that way. Now I am disgusted with myself for giving in to her request.

So I guess we will have something between us besides the kids forever no matter what.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 04:41 PM
Sorry man. \:\( I knew she had a history of abuse and resulting sexual issues, but I wasn't aware of that.

I wonder if she used it as a tactic to keep you around. To try and "ruin" you for any other woman.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 04:42 PM
Hold, can I ask, what STD it was?

I found out that I had HPV, the virus that causes cervical cancer in women, last year. That was hard to take. There is no test for men, but most partners of an infected person carry it, too, and it can lie dormant for many years. It is in a large percentage of the population. I don't know if I got it from H, or caught it before I met him. He's had many many more partners than I did. I remember how angry I was with H, that I was more likely paying the consequences for all the fun he had years ago, when we had so little "fun" in the present. But I had to accept it, because there was no changing it.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 05:07 PM
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
I wonder if she used it as a tactic to keep you around. To try and "ruin" you for any other woman.


Well, we will smoke that out when I ask her to sign the notarized affidavit confirming that I got it from her. She thinks this is going to be "our secret". Only as long as we remain married. If she thinks I am going to stay married BECAUSE of this, she has another think coming.

 Quote:
But I had to accept it, because there was no changing it.


Yes, and we all know how good I am at accepting what I cannot change. ;\)
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 06:24 PM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
It seems I have caught Mrs. Hold's STD. I cannot believe I agreed to have unprotected sex with her. So now, not only have I allowed her to poison the time we have been married, she has succeeded in poisoning whatever time we may have apart.


Hold, I'm sorry this has happened to you. I know you probably don't want to hear this right now but you're just as responsible as Mrs. Hold. You didn't do enough to protect yourself and therefore you need to be accountable to that.

I understand the whole 'succeeded' part was your anger speaking out seeing it must be recent that you found this out. I hope you can find it within yourself to not cast blame. I'm sure your wife had no intentions of you catching this and I suspect she's going to have tons of guilt seeing you've contracted it. You tell me if I'm wrong.

I'm usually not a big fan of your W and the way she has treated you over the years ... but then you've decided to stay and take it. However, the things I'm hearing from you and other posters is really quite cruel and I would say quite disrespectful.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 06:26 PM
Oh and despite catching this I'm sure you can still go on to have an active sex life. You just have to be careful with your sex partner.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 07:29 PM
 Originally Posted By: MrAlias
Hold, I'm sorry this has happened to you. I know you probably don't want to hear this right now but you're just as responsible as Mrs. Hold. You didn't do enough to protect yourself and therefore you need to be accountable to that.


I know. I said as much in my post. I am not nearly as angry at her as I am at myself. I permitted this to happen. I must pay the price.

 Quote:
I hope you can find it within yourself to not cast blame. I'm sure your wife had no intentions of you catching this and I suspect she's going to have tons of guilt seeing you've contracted it.


I can refrain from blaming her. I doubt I will ever forgive myself.

She does appear to have tons of guilt. I have zero sympathy.

 Quote:
However, the things I'm hearing from you and other posters is really quite cruel and I would say quite disrespectful.


The only person I am disrespecting is me. And in my view, I deserve it.

Thanks for the honesty. I did not come here looking for sympathy. Nor did I come here to trash Mrs. Hold. I came to scream out my pain. And to point out the irony to the few people in the world who might appreciate it. It is not like I am going to tell anyone in person "isn't it ironic that after complaining about the lack of sex and remaining monogamous for 16 years I ended up catching a STD"?
Posted By: hanora Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 07:44 PM
Well, that is ironic (she says wryly). And I'm sorry that it happened, but I doubt that it was some plot on Mrs. Hold's part.
Also I doubt that it would make much difference to a woman who wanted to be your next wife - not exactly what one would choose, but not a deal breaker either.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 07:56 PM
Meh... I'm not paranoid by nature, but I'd at least consider that this was somewhat intentional on your W's part HOTI. I understand everyone else giving her the benefit of the doubt, but given her history of lies, and manipulation, is it really all that implausible?

Let's look at the facts, shall we?

-She knows you have poor boundary enforcement.
-She knows that you have been desperate for sex.
-She knows you are unhappy and consider divorce regularly.
-She knows that no man in his right mind, and with a capacity to support her will have her in her present state.

Considering what she did to attract you in the first place, is it too cynical to think she'd pull something like this to keep you?

I can't decide if this is a Blake Edwards bedroom farce, or a Greek tragedy.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/03/09 07:58 PM
 Originally Posted By: hanora
but I doubt that it was some plot on Mrs. Hold's part.


Agreed. I don't think she did it on purpose. Not even unconsciously.

On the other hand, Seabird can rest assured that even if she did, it will not increase the odds of my staying with her. If she thought I would feel "stuck" with her and thus stay longer, she is going to find out that I feel more "stuck" with her and thus more motivated to leave. If anything, this will not lead to less boundary enforcement. It will lead to more vigorous boundary enforcement.

 Quote:
Also I doubt that it would make much difference to a woman who wanted to be your next wife - not exactly what one would choose, but not a deal breaker either.


Well, it wasn't a deal breaker for me. So I must admit it is possible there is a woman out there who is as foolish as I was.

The good news for such a woman is that she won't face a difficult choice, because there isn't going to be a next wife. Whether Mrs. Hold and I part at death or before, I won't be playing this game again.
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/04/09 01:03 PM
 Quote:

Well, it wasn't a deal breaker for me. So I must admit it is possible there is a woman out there who is as foolish as I was.

The good news for such a woman is that she won't face a difficult choice, because there isn't going to be a next wife. Whether Mrs. Hold and I part at death or before, I won't be playing this game again.


You weren't foolish. In the end your choice turned out to be a bad one, not because your W has an STD, but because she simply was so wounded or broken that she was unable to care for you in the least.

I believe there is a woman out there who would be honored to have you for a H ... so long as she didn't allow you to continue to wallow in your own self-pity like you do so often. I'd hope she'd be one to be strong enough to bust your chops and help you get your mind right.

I'm sorry to hear you feel that marriage isn't worth it and to you its just some kind of sick game. For me it has been a long road in which I've had to do some hard work but in the end it is SOOOO worth it because there is NOTHING I cherish more than the love of my W. I wish that for you Hold.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/04/09 03:59 PM
 Originally Posted By: MrAlias
I'm sorry to hear you feel that marriage isn't worth it and to you its just some kind of sick game.


To me it is not worth the risk. If a woman loves me, we can date, or live together. If she wants to get married, I would be terrified that she has an agenda that is not in my interest. There is nothing she could say or do to convince me that she isn't planning to stop meeting my ENs as soon as we get married. The more she pushed for marriage, the more I would resist.

As I have said before, the only way I would marry again is if she made it worth my while to take that risk. Through an enormous up front cash payment combined with a prenuptial that made it clear I owe nothing upon divorce.

Which is why I feel I am correct to not want to get married. For marriage to be worthwhile, both spouses have to be committed to it. They have to be invested. And I am unwilling to commit or invest that much. It doesn't matter how wonderful she is or how well we get along, I will not permit myself to ever be this vulnerable again. I am now so wounded and broken that I cannot commit to caring for anyone else. And I am not interested in being "cured" to the point where I could care that much about someone else.

So even if I got married again, I would not have both feet and my whole heart in it. As I see it, it wouldn't be fair of me to marry anyone under those conditions.

Do you disagree?
Posted By: MrAlias Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/04/09 05:21 PM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
And I am unwilling to commit or invest that much. It doesn't matter how wonderful she is or how well we get along, I will not permit myself to ever be this vulnerable again. I am now so wounded and broken that I cannot commit to caring for anyone else. And I am not interested in being "cured" to the point where I could care that much about someone else.

So even if I got married again, I would not have both feet and my whole heart in it. As I see it, it wouldn't be fair of me to marry anyone under those conditions.

Do you disagree?


I agree it wouldn't be fair.

I'm gonna hold out hope that this won't always be your mantra. I'm gonna hope that love will pervail and you will one day want to trust someone enough to be, yet again, vulnerable and toss both feet and your heart into the relationship.

It doesn't necessarily need to be a marriage but it does need to be a healthy relationship. Who knows what the future holds.

I will agree that you are now better positioned to not let history repeat itself.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/04/09 05:42 PM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit

Which is why I feel I am correct to not want to get married. For marriage to be worthwhile, both spouses have to be committed to it. They have to be invested. And I am unwilling to commit or invest that much. It doesn't matter how wonderful she is or how well we get along, I will not permit myself to ever be this vulnerable again. I am now so wounded and broken that I cannot commit to caring for anyone else. And I am not interested in being "cured" to the point where I could care that much about someone else.


I guess the STD is redundant and irrelevant then?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/04/09 05:52 PM
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
I guess the STD is redundant and irrelevant then?


I said I don't want to get married again, I didn't say I don't want to have sex again. The STD is quite relevant to future sex.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/05/09 09:58 PM
I don't know what to say. I guess you've sealed your fate with this woman.

Just when I thought she couldn't do you much more harm.

What a warm, wonderful person, that Mrs. Hold--such a giving soul.

Stephen King couldn't write a better nightmare.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/05/09 10:09 PM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit

I said I don't want to get married again, I didn't say I don't want to have sex again. The STD is quite relevant to future sex.


No offense man, but when you say stuff like this:

 Quote:

I cannot commit to caring for anyone else. And I am not interested in being "cured" to the point where I could care that much about someone else.


...it makes me hope that you don't have sex with anyone else again. At least not until you can change your attitude w/re to dealing with someone else.

Do you recognize the cyclical pattern here? How your wife's abuse led her to abusing you, and how that might lead you to abusing someone else, albeit in a different way?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/05/09 10:46 PM
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
Do you recognize the cyclical pattern here? How your wife's abuse led her to abusing you, and how that might lead you to abusing someone else, albeit in a different way?


Hmmm, well, I'm not looking to have sex with anyone at this point. And even when I am, I doubt anyone would oblige me. So I don't think you have to worry about me doing so any time soon.

On the other hand, I don't see it as necessarily abusive to have sex with someone despite not caring about them enough to marry them. I understand some people are uncomfortable with premarital sex. But I am fine with it. I didn't say I wouldn't care about someone else AT ALL. Just not enough to commit to marrying them.

I don't think I will be abusive in my next relationship (assuming there is one). Rather, I think I will be extremely gun shy about total emotional commitment. If you see it as abusive to have sex in that context, we can agree to disagree.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/05/09 10:55 PM
At this point, it's hard for me to imagine you away from Mrs. Hold. If I were to bet, I'd put my money against that happening.

But if you do, (and how I wish you did long ago), may you find a healthy, happy, kind and wonderful woman. They are out there, I can tell you. My marriage was somewhat similar to yours, and after having gone through the pain, and being reborn into a relationship with a sexy, warm, generous and REASONABLE woman, the difference is like night and day.

I really hope one day you shake the curse that is MRs. Hold.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 06:25 AM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit

Hmmm, well, I'm not looking to have sex with anyone at this point. And even when I am, I doubt anyone would oblige me. So I don't think you have to worry about me doing so any time soon.

On the other hand, I don't see it as necessarily abusive to have sex with someone despite not caring about them enough to marry them. I understand some people are uncomfortable with premarital sex. But I am fine with it. I didn't say I wouldn't care about someone else AT ALL. Just not enough to commit to marrying them.

I don't think I will be abusive in my next relationship (assuming there is one). Rather, I think I will be extremely gun shy about total emotional commitment. If you see it as abusive to have sex in that context, we can agree to disagree.


Think about what you're saying here HOTI. I know - you probably do think about it quite a bit. Just a figure of speech.

But... What is it you think you want then? An FB relationship? No strings attached sex? Sex with a predefined limit of emotional attachment? Is that something you can get together with a potential partner over a cup of coffee and map out ahead of time?

Or do you play it close to the vest? Not let on just how closed off and withdrawn you are? Let her assume that your feelings for her will grow?

Like your W did with you?

That's what I was getting at. The abuse I was referring to is that inherent dishonesty about where your limitations are and just what your potential partner can accept from you.

I mean really, what kind of half decent, non-enabling, non-codependent woman is going to willingly step into an involvement with you while you maintain this attitude? Anyone who will isn't going to be any better for you than your W. She might give up the hoohah a lot more, but you'll just be trading in for a whole new set of problems.

Why am I, the younger guy who barely squeaked through a city college, telling YOU this???

Know something else? I still think we're enabling you here. I think you're getting some ENs filled by this place, and it's holding you back. At some point, MB has become an addiction for you, feeding a need that you should be getting outside.

"I'm your pusher-man, baby." /Isaak Hayes
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 11:56 AM
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
But... What is it you think you want then? An FB relationship? No strings attached sex? Sex with a predefined limit of emotional attachment? Is that something you can get together with a potential partner over a cup of coffee and map out ahead of time?


Yes, exactly. Friends but not life partners. No strings. If there aren't any women who want that, then I guess I will do without. I mostly did without for years and years before I got married. I can do that again. Much easier to do without while single than to do without lying next to someone every night.

I am not looking for the "brass ring". I am not looking for deep love or lifetime commitment. FB sounds very appealing at this point.

You are not the first person to suggest I should want more out of life. I am not willing to pay the price for more.

 Quote:
Or do you play it close to the vest? Not let on just how closed off and withdrawn you are? Let her assume that your feelings for her will grow?


No, I won't hide who I am and how I feel. I didn't hide myself from Mrs. Hold before we got married. I told her that I wanted lots of sex and that I have depressive tendencies and that she could expect me to under-perform my educational accomplishments. She just didn't believe me on either count.

I hide my feelings now because I want to stay with the kids. Once that is over, no reason for me to hide anything.

 Quote:
No woman who is not co-dependent will want to be with you


You are correct. No woman who is "together" is going to want me while I remain so damaged. I realize that now. You may see that as motivation to fix my damaged psyche. I just see it as reason to be on the lookout for something dark inside I haven't seen yet - because if she is willing to date me, it must be down there somewhere.

Ignoring that reality is what happened to Mrs. Hold and me. Neither of us could believe the other person was willing to "settle" for us. We were blind to the reality that something that seems "too good to be true" probably is - and to the dark secrets buried inside both of us.

In the future, I will not be blind to the likelihood that I am only seeing the tip of the iceberg. That will keep me from committing. And from knowing the joy that others report feeling from a truly intimate relationship. But it will also keep me from receiving a gash "below the waterline" that causes my ship to sink.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 12:57 PM
When you talk about how you told all these things to Mrs. Hold, it reminds me of me in my early life I met men who told me, this is all I can give, I can't give any more. And I ignored it, in the hope that my caring would cause them to love me more.

Mrs. Hold probably felt the same way. Now, this is no excuse for the things she has done, but I think you need to know that if you come across as a decent guy, women will not believe that you can't or won't commit.

Its the reason that women used to go gaga for Mr. Spock. "Oh, but if he only experienced me loving him, he'd change".
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 02:37 PM
 Originally Posted By: Happy2CU
Mrs. Hold probably felt the same way.


No, Mrs. Hold thought I was being modest as to my career abilities and "bragging" about a sex drive she didn't think I possesed given my lack of experience and generally passive nature. I don't think she believed she could "inspire" me to be different than I proclaimed to be. I think she thought I already was different than I proclaimed to be, and that she was shocked when I turned out to be exactly as I described myself.

 Quote:
Now, this is no excuse for the things she has done, but I think you need to know that if you come across as a decent guy, women will not believe that you can't or won't commit.


At this point in my life, I am not prepared to take on responsibility for what someone else believes. Under MB concepts, it is a DJ for me to assume I know what they are thinking or what motivates them. All I can do is be honest and let them choose their behavior. If a woman tells me she believes I will eventually commit to her, all I can do is communicate my feeling of how unlikely that is.

I have spent a lifetime worrying about how other people feel and how my behavior might hurt them. I have been a "nice guy". All it has gotten me is pain. If I am ever single, I am not going to take it upon myself to protect another person from themselves. I am going to ask for what I want. They are free to say no. If they say yes, it is not my responsibility to ensure they are saying yes for the "right" reason. Trying to put myself inside the other person's head is what got me into this mess in the first place.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 02:59 PM
Do you ever recall any significant victories in your life?

And I dislike saying "hold" and "HOTI". Can I use your real first name? If not, I understand.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 03:24 PM
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
Do you ever recall any significant victories in your life?


Nope. Last "win" was getting into law school. And that was purely on grades and scores. Which for me was genetics, not hard work.

 Quote:
And I dislike saying "hold" and "HOTI". Can I use your real first name? If not, I understand.


I would prefer if you didn't. But you can call me tax if you want something with less relationship connotations.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 03:46 PM
Not even when you graduated from law school? I'm just wondering if it's been so long since you've tasted "chocolate", you forgot how good it could be.

What about when you started running? No sense of accomplishment? No feelings of, "Wow! I never thought I could do -that-!"?

Understood on the name. It's not the relationship connotation. Those other two terms just sound silly to my ear.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 04:11 PM
How about "Tex the Tax Man"?

Gives you a sort of cowboy aura. Content to spend nights alone on the range, with just the coyotes for company. Honest and WYSIWYG. A love-em-and-leave-em, no strings attached lone wolf.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 04:15 PM
I think I would feel ultra-gay calling him that.

Keep your fantasies out of this jayne.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 04:30 PM
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
Not even when you graduated from law school? I'm just wondering if it's been so long since you've tasted "chocolate", you forgot how good it could be.


Maybe. Hard to remember. I was disappointed at the time that I did not get elected to be a class representative. My Mom had broken her leg a few days before graduation. And I had the bar exam looming over me. I don't remember being elated. Maybe it is so long since I felt happy that I can't remember what it felt like.

It felt like a "win" when we got married. That feeling lasted literally until about midnight of our wedding day when Mrs. Hold got mad at me for going downstairs to see if there was a bottle of champagne available. I returned to find her in the hallway slumped on the floor crying that I had abandoned her. You know how that story ends.

I was pleased to make partner at my old firm. But we had started MC a few months earlier. Things were really bad with Mrs. Hold. So while I was pleased to make partner. It ended up being a pay cut for the first year. And my life was not happy at the time. I don't remember feeling victorious. Plus it was tainted by the reality that I had been partner with the guy in Florida who kicked me out 6 months later (the week before S14 was born) because he saw how much money we were making and he didn't want to share any of it with me. So partnership didn't feel "real". It always felt like something that could be taken away at a moment's notice.

 Quote:
What about when you started running? No sense of accomplishment? No feelings of, "Wow! I never thought I could do -that-!"?


Definitely not. In fact, that is exactly what I was hoping running would feel like: a sense of accomplishment. But coming in so far toward the back. Behind EVERYONE. Even the people decades older than me. And being the only person in my training group who did not reach my fundraising goal. No, I felt no sense of accomplishment. I finished the race in pain and felt like a failure. The process felt like more confirmation that I am a loser who will never accomplish anything.

 Quote:
Understood on the name. It's not the relationship connotation. Those other two terms just sound silly to my ear.


Me too. Esp the hoti. But hold fits. I am holding on tight to all my fear, frustration and resentment.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 05:34 PM
If you were a horse, I'd have to shoot you.

Geez!

So, um... What are you afraid of, really? If you walk out I mean. That Mrs. Hold would... What? Clean you out financially? She's already BTDT. Take you away from your kids? She can't you know. You have rights as a father. They're getting older and spending less time at the house anyway.

I don't get it.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 06:37 PM
You are a good guy, Hold. You've done all of the "right" things, you're a decent family man who loves his kids (great kids, too!), and you've asked for so little out of life. You go to work every day, you give everything you have to your family, your patience with Mrs. Hold is legendary.

I've only heard you yearn for one thing over all of these years, and that's a little attention. You shouldn't have to beg for that, not a man who gives as much as you do.

I tell you, Hold--now this wife of yours has taken your clean bill of health, and that is just amazingly f'ed up (pardon my lack of ability to be more delicate here.) I can see it now, she's baiting you with your monthly sex, but the poor dear feels dirty when you protect yourself with a condom.

I've been thinking about this and you all evening since you wrote that. I've discussed it with L, the light of my life. I can't believe how much damage your wife has done to a good, loyal man. F your depression, F your "dark underside", F all of the bull she's made you feel. You told the truth, and contnue to do so. She has not and does not.

She has taken just about everything you can take from a guy.
I know you forgive her, but that is testament to your big heart.
What she has done to you over the years is egregious, loathesome, and unforgivable. SHE is the bad guy here. I'll never see it any other way, my friend.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:03 PM
Hold, your wife aside, the only person I've ever met more determined to be sad is my brother. He found reasons to be miserable on his wedding day.

This is all in your hands. You've done half-hearted attempts at therapy, half-hearted attempts at getting in shape, doing a fundraiser, fixing your marriage, being a good role model for your kids. Every situation you describe was destroyed by YOUR decision to be miserable, not your wife's, not your job's, YOURS.

Every time, YOU stop yourself. Do you want your kids to be like that? They will, if you don't get off your butt and start making changes. If you won't do it for yourself, sacrifice for your kids.

Go back to the doctor, ask him for mood-altering drugs, sign up for a year-long intensive therapy session, pay for a trainer who won't let go of you, make a conscious goal to save your kids from your fate.

Did you ever hear this story:

Happiness is a Choice

Michael is the kind of guy you love to hate. He is always in a good mood and always has something positive to say. When someone would ask him how he was doing, he would reply, "If I were any better, I would be twins!"

He was a natural motivator. If an employee was having a bad day, Michael was there telling the employee how to look on the positive side of the situation.

Seeing this style really made me curious, so one day I went up to Michael and asked him, "I don't get it! You can't be a positive person all of the time. How do you do it?"

Michael replied, "Each morning I wake up and say to myself, 'Mike, you have two choices today. You can choose to be in a good mood or you can choose to be in a bad mood.' I choose to be in a good mood.

"Each time something bad happens, I can choose to be a victim or I can choose to learn from it. I choose to learn from it.

"Every time someone comes to me complaining, I can choose to accept their complaining or I can point out the positive side of life. I choose the positive side of life."

"Yeah, right, it isn't that easy," I protested.

"Yes, it is," Michael said. "Life is all about choices. When you cut away all the junk, every situation is a choice. You choose how you react to situations. You choose how people will affect your mood. You choose to be in a good mood or bad mood.

"The bottom line is: It's your choice how you live life."

I reflected on what Michael said. Soon thereafter, I left the tower industry to start my own business. We lost touch, but I often thought about him when I made a choice about life instead of reacting to it.

Several years later, I heard that Michael was involved in a serious accident, falling some 60 feet from a communications tower. After 18 hours of surgery and weeks of intensive care, Michael was released from the hospital with rods placed in his back.

I saw Michael about six months after the accident. When I asked him how he was, he replied, "If I were any better, I'd be twins. Wanna see my scars?"

I declined to see his wounds, but did ask him what had gone through his mind as the accident took place.

"The first thing that went through my mind was the well being of my soon-to-be-born daughter," Michael replied. "Then, as I lay on the ground, I remembered that I had two choices: I could choose to live or I could choose to die. I chose to live."

"Weren't you scared? Did you lose consciousness?" I asked.

Michael continued, "...the paramedics were great. They kept telling me I was going to be fine.

"But when they wheeled me into the ER and I saw the expressions on the faces of the doctors and nurses, I got really scared. In their eyes, I read, 'he's a dead man.' I knew I needed to take action."

"What did you do?" I asked.

"Well, there was a big burly nurse shouting questions at me," said Michael. "She asked if I was allergic to anything. 'Yes,' I replied. The doctors and nurses stopped working as they waited for my reply. I took a deep breath and yelled, 'Gravity.' Over their laughter, I told them, 'I am choosing to live. Operate on me as if I am alive, not dead.'"

Michael lived, thanks to the skill of his doctors, but also because of his amazing attitude. I learned from him that every day we have the choice to live fully. Attitude, after all, is everything.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:22 PM
 Originally Posted By: catperson
Hold, your wife aside, the only person I've ever met more determined to be sad is my brother. He found reasons to be miserable on his wedding day.


Hey Sis, is that you? I was very sad most of my wedding day. I slept at my parents' house. Late morning my mom and sister left to spend the day with all the ladies getting their hair and nails done, makeup, etc. My dad left too, I think to play golf with his buddies. My guy friends were staying at the hotel where the wedding reception was. I called a couple of them. No answers. So I spent the day alone. I remember feeling very lonely.

Yes, I know that was my choice. I could have made plans with my friends. I could have driven to the hotel and looked for them. Or I could have chosen to be thrilled that it was my wedding day. So yes, I guess I chose to feel sad and lonely.

Thanks for the slap. You are right. I should do something. I will e-mail my buddy who was going to get me a second opinion about my personality disorder. But I doubt it will make any difference. Neither will mood altering drugs. They are like candy for me - they make no difference. I am simply too comfortable and get too much of a payoff from choosing to be miserable for talk therapy or drugs to have any impact.

I am going to push again for ECT. Sooner or later I will find someone to shock me.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:34 PM
Catperson,
That may be so, but he's got one hell of a millstone around his neck with Mrs. Hold. His decision to marry her has been a bane on his existence ever since. Luckily he has his two kids to offset that.

I would be depressed, too. It's more situational than chemical.

Hold's wife is a toxic person. She gives of herself to anyone but her husband, from whom she wrangled and extorted every last cent and shred of self esteem.

To put the icing on the cake, she has now given him her gift of disease from all the wild years of [censored] and sucking lowlifes in bulk numbers. Of course, that's all she's given him, because she certainly doesn't provide Hold the benefit of wild sex.

F her weight loss, F her self esteem, F her comfort loving fat a$$, F her, period. She has taken a good man down.

Give the guy a little room to feel miserable. It's not exactly the Sound of Music over there.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:39 PM
 Quote:
I am simply too comfortable and get too much of a payoff from choosing to be miserable for talk therapy or drugs to have any impact.
Even if it means your kids will grow up just like you? Or worse, just like your wife? Since they don't have a single decent role model in their house to learn to live like?

I repeat. Quit being selfish. Quit enjoying your martyrdom. Quit ruining your kids' lives.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:42 PM
 Originally Posted By: EasyE
Catperson,
That may be so, but he's got one hell of a millstone around his neck with Mrs. Hold. His decision to marry her has been a bane on his existence ever since. Luckily he has his two kids to offset that.

I would be depressed, too. It's more situational than chemical.

Hold's wife is a toxic person. She gives of herself to anyone but her husband, from whom she wrangled and extorted every last cent and shred of self esteem.

To put the icing on the cake, she has now given him her gift of disease from all the wild years of [censored] and sucking lowlifes in bulk numbers. Of course, that's all she's given him, because she certainly doesn't provide Hold the benefit of wild sex.

F her weight loss, F her self esteem, F her comfort loving fat a$$, F her, period. She has taken a good man down.

Give the guy a little room to feel miserable. It's not exactly the Sound of Music over there.
Easy, I call BS. I've been talking to Hold for 1 1/2 years and he has changed absolutely nothing. He keeps popping up once every 3 months or so to say he's done this or that, and then he lets it all fade back into the woodwork so he can keep getting his payoff for being a sadsack. We have all been helpful, generous, concerned, and NOTHING matters to him. Just like my brother, he feeds off of being miserable. His wife treating him like crap is just more gravy.

He CHOOSES not to try. I call BS.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:45 PM
Hold,
Get yourself out of the house. Find a buddy to go and do some skiing for a few days, or to just camp out in the mountains.

If Mrs Hold resists, tell her to shut up.

Take some guy time, get out in the elements, and clear your head.

Use your god given right to find a little freedom.

If it were me I'd take way more than a few days.

If I were closer I'd go with you myself.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 07:46 PM
 Originally Posted By: EasyE
Get yourself out of the house. Find a buddy to go and do some skiing for a few days, or to just camp out in the mountains.


Easy, take it easy. Cat is right. It is not Mrs. Hold. It is me. My choices. I was like this before I met Mrs. Hold. Taking a vacation from her won't change a thing. I have gone camping with my college buddy several times. Went to my reunion with another buddy. She and the kids have gone away and left me home alone. I went to Switzerland 3 times by myself. She is not the problem. I am.

 Originally Posted By: catperson
Even if it means your kids will grow up just like you?


Yes.

Now you see why I keep pushing for ECT or TMS. I am addicted to these choices. I am never going to voluntarily change. I don't understand why I can't convince any of the doctors to authorize more drastic treatment. I'm obviously not advocating very well on my own behalf.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 08:06 PM
Sure Hold, you bet.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 08:25 PM
You dont need ECT.

You need DTB. (Divorce That B****)
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 08:26 PM
And she gave you more than a disease, she IS A DISEASE.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 08:27 PM
Hold,

I don't remember if you read "Healing The Shame That Binds Us" by John Bradshaw or not.

Or if you went to Alanon meetings.

LA
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 08:31 PM
Which came first?, your low self esteem, or your ruining of your life by marrying the MRS.

But whichever came first, BOTH have to be resolved so you can have a good "rest of your life".

Get to it!



I think that IF YOU START TO IMPROVE YOUR SELF ESTEEM~ YOU WILL THEN HAVE THE STRENGTH TO DIVORCE HER......

OR: IF YOU DIVORCE HER, YOU WILL THEN HAVE THE STRENGTH TO IMPROVE YOUR SELF ESTEEM.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 08:46 PM
Not sure if I have that book. I have read so many self-help books over the years. I might have gotten it around the same time I got "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "When I Say No I Feel Guilty". And I got so excited by NMMNG that I might have forgotten to read HTSTBU. I have seen many recomendations for it over the years. I'll check downstairs and order it if I don't have it.

Never been to Alanon. Have been to a couple of CODA meetings. Not sure why you think I need Alanon. Are you suggesting that Mrs. Hold's history leads her to behave like an addict? I feel I am the one behaving like an addict here - I am addicted to MB and to navel gazing and the drama and the self pity. On the other hand, maybe I should go back to CODA. Today is D12's birthday, so I can't go tonight. But I think I can go next Friday. Friday the 13th. What an auspicious day to get back on the wagon!
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 09:22 PM
Sounds like a perfect date for Mr. Hold's MO.

\:D

Do you think Alanon isn't for addicts, too?

Would you consider that Alanon is for anyone who's been affected by alcohol in their personal history? As they say...that could be a great-grandfather/mother/cousin/sibling/child/spouse...

Or great-great.

Or not so great.

\:\)

Thank you for checking it out. I truly believe when the pain of not changing outweighs the pain of changing, you will change your choices. You'll find that false payoff and in doing so, you'll see it shrivel up in shame and disappear.

And you'll miss it, a little.

Consider that no addict marries a non-addict.

I want to make you go "hmmmmm". \:D

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/06/09 09:47 PM
No addict marries a non-addict. Hmmmmm.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 02:30 AM
Maybe the doctors think that it won't do any good, that even after drastic "re-booting" of your brain, you will still be yourself. Your basic mindset has not changed in many years.

The question is, what will change it?
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 06:32 AM
http://www.oshmanlaw.com/personal_injury/sexually-transmitted-diseases.html

People sue every day for others giving them herpes. You should sue the pants off her. Look at the damages this STD does to people, physically and mentally.

Sue her for all she is worth! (Oh I forgot,, she is not worth much)

Sue her for all her future earnings....or something...

Just sue her!!!!
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 06:34 AM
http://www.drlaurablog.com/2008/11/14/husband-sues-wife-for-std/

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=mo&vol=/appeals/102000/&invol=1103100_2000
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 06:58 AM
HOLD, do you see that this herpes she gave you by refusing to let you wear condoms is YOUR TICKET OUT OF THE MARRIAGE?

You can hold it over her like a hammer all through the lawsuit and divorce you serve her papers for. This will control the damage you are afraid she would do during a divorce.
Posted By: kansaskitty Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 03:16 PM
Stella: In most states, spouses cannot sue each other, except for divorce. This goes back to the old common law theory that the wife's identity is subsumed into her husband's when they marry. In the Dr. Laura case, the wife was straying during the marriage. Hold married Mrs. Hold knowing that she had many sexual partners before they met, and from what I infer, knew she had this STD at the time they married. Hold has not indicated that Mrs. Hold has strayed during the marriage. Also, I don't think his wife refused to use condoms-she just preferred not to, and apparently, so did Hold. So I think the likelihood that he could win damages against her are pretty slim, even if he can sue her in Connecticut.

I do think that if he wants to divorce her, he could use the STD as a psychological weapon to get better custody of the children. This would make the divorce a very nasty one - as nasty as his marriage. The children are adolescents now. It is a possibility that they would find out about the STD if its existence was mentioned in any of the legal pleadings. Now I don't think that even Hold hates Mrs. Hold enough to brandish that weapon with the possibility the kids would find out and the resulting harm that would occur to them.

This situation really sucks all the way around.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 03:48 PM
From one cat to another...you are probably right...

I just want the MRS to feel as much or more pain than she has inflicted on her husband all these years. Literally she should be sued! Or put in jail. For all the bad she did to him.

The MRS HOLD MARITAL RESUME:

1. Stole all his savings and lied about it (total around 112K)
2. Ran up all thier cards and lied about it
3. Savings now gone,cards ran up, money gone, then he found out.
4. Would not and will not work to make the money back
5. Demands more and more money and refuses to work
6. Demands $225K of home repairs
7. Demands trips
8. Demands he work more and more hours
9. Forged his checks
10. Continues to runs up cards
11. Demands and gets a large allowance
12. Drives 100 miles a day to spend more money
13. Lousy lover
14. SEX withholder
15. Tells him in detail how she used to LOVE sex with her other boyfriends. Real nice.
16. Makes thier marriage unpleasant every day
17. Brings stress on HOLD and the kids by verbally abusing him
18. Eats too much
19. Refuses to work at all. At home or on a job.
20. Demanded a houskeeper-she will not clean house
21. Insults HOLD in public
22. Demands trips, vacations, and jewelry.
23. Does not care about HOLD ever retiring
24. Gives HOLD an incurable disease
25. She could care less for anyone but herself
26. Treats HOLD bad in front of the kids.

We could go on and on. Had it been my spouse, I would have divorced her years ago but I would not have had children so I dont know that end of it. I think I would have rather married a criminal than a "Mrs Hold".

Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 05:05 PM
There is one good thing about Mrs Hold. She is working out and trying to lose weight. Even if this is for selfish reasons, it is a good thing.
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 05:15 PM
Hold- The reason most doctors won't give you shock treatments is because you are not showing signs of severe mental instability. Most of your issue is you do not stay with nor listen to any therapist you go to. You are right your wife is not your issue. Learning to love yourself is the issue. That can't be done with drugs,shock therapy ect. You have to learn the right tools to deal with your issues. Face it Hold your life is not that bad. Come on you have a good job, if you were doing as poorly as you say you are do you think they would keep you on? I highly doubt it not in this economy. Your wife is not perfect but I do believe she loves you. You need to learn to love her for who she is not who you wish she was. However before you can even begin to heal your feelings for your wife you need to heal yourself.
If you don't 1 of 2 things is probably going to happen. Your children will copy you as adults. Or they will become resentful of your issues as adults and back away from you. I am sure you don't want either of those things to happen. Children eed secure role models to follow especially in their teens. Your son especially is watching you it is how kids learn to be adults themselves.

You have health insurance find a good psychiatrist not just a therapist. They can set you up with some good group therapy sessions.

I'm sure I have said these same things to you about 3 or 4 times in the last how many years Hold. You know what to do.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 06:50 PM
Great post, Jilly. I was going to chime in here with my standard reply to the kids when they start telling me something:

There are 3 sides to every story.

Your side

Their side

And the truth.

And that goes for my own situation and Hold's and pretty much everyone's. Not to say one person is wrong or right or more wrong or more right--that's what all the discussion is for! But if Mrs. Hold were to start posting, what would she say? If my husband were to start posting, what would he say? We all see things through our own filters and that's where communication breaks down.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/07/09 09:28 PM
Hold, you should print this out and tape it to your bathroom mirror, you car window, and your computer screen:

Most of your issue is you do not stay with nor listen to any therapist you go to.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/09 03:39 AM
Not sure why I would listen to this doctor any more than I listened in the past, but I got a name from my buddy the psychiatrist and I will call tomorrow. Hopefully I am unhappy enough to finally take some advice.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/09 05:54 AM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Hopefully I am unhappy enough to finally take some advice.


This hurts my head.

Hopefully... You're unhappy enough... To finally take some advice.

For what?

Be happy???

In order to be happy, you need to first be even more unhappy before you might take and follow the advice you're given?

Are you flailing H? Looks like you're flailing to me.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/09 05:12 PM
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
Are you flailing H? Looks like you're flailing to me.


Of course I am flailing. I have been flailing for the past 25 years. Hopefully I am finally ready to stop flailing.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/09 05:23 PM
Seabird, that actually makes sense to me. Hold and I are alot alike. The fear is strong enough that we will put up with a LOT until we finally can't any more. Getting to a level of unhappiness that trumps the fear is what it takes for people like us to be willing to face it.
Posted By: Seabird Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/09 08:34 PM
I'm sorry. I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm just really struggling to understand this mindset.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/09/09 09:03 PM
Good point seabird. Trying to imagine what it would be like to not be able to make my life better or get out from a bad situation.

Change is hard always.
Everybody has fears

What rules your life, FEAR? Fear of change? Fear of making a decision?

How could fear of change keep you in a life of heartache for many years?

Choices:

I choose the abuse rather than choosing to get away from the abuser because___________________.

I choose what I know, even if that is terrible, because in the past every choice I have made is bad and I will be punished for choosing at all.

I am not able to CHOOSE. I must remain STILL and PASSIVE and REFUSE TO BETTER MY LIFE.

I am NOT going to think about all my choices and CHOOSE the best one for me. After all, I am not worthy to have any kind of good life. I refuse to CHOOSE my life's direction.

The direction of my life IS NOT UP TO ME. It is up to _________and _______ and _______________.

I want to have nothing to do with the direction my life takes.

If I be HAPPY or if I be UNHAPPY, I simply REFUSE to make any changes. My happiness is unimportant.

I would rather be unhappy all my life than take a risk or make any changes.

CHANGE = DEATH.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/09 12:57 AM
Change has always opened many doors in my life.

From unexpected breakups to job layoffs, it has always, bar none,
made for a substantial improvement.

The largest pay increases I've ever gotten have come about from first being let go from one company, then being hired by another at marked increase. Upsetting at first; rewarding later.

Breakups, always hard, have moved me to quit jobs (co-workers) and one time, when an engagement soon after college broke off, it caused me to travel across the country aimlessly with friends. I wound up in Seattle working at Microsoft, and experiencing many, many awesome women along the way.

I made a killing in stock options at Microsoft in the 90's. I also had more sex than I could ave possibly imagined.

If I had amrried that devilish girl, I'd be have been bound and gagged forever in Houston, texas.

My marriage,which lasted only three years, was the worst. She was a very beautiful sociopath, and the relationship did a lot of damage. The divorce was very hard for me, as she was the one who left. I implored her to stay and work it out. She was like the trollop in East of Eden. I now see how blind I was, and how I was used.

It ended up being the very best thing, as my relationship now is
amazing beyond words; she is my soulmate.

I hate change, I really do. But it has heralded in the very best things in my life. I'm a believer now!
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/10/09 04:55 PM
[quote=holdingontoit]
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
Are you flailing H? Looks like you're flailing to me.


Of course I am flailing. I have been flailing for the past 25 years. Hopefully I am finally ready to stop flailing. [/quote]


I hope you are ready Hold.
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/15/09 07:50 PM
Stellakat;

I understand the pain you want her to suffer, but even looking over your list..some of them wouldn't fly in court..


 Quote:
I just want the MRS to feel as much or more pain than she has inflicted on her husband all these years. Literally she should be sued! Or put in jail. For all the bad she did to him.

The MRS HOLD MARITAL RESUME:

1. Stole all his savings and lied about it (total around 112K)
(they were married..martial assets--unless they had a pre-nup)

2. Ran up all thier cards and lied about it
(again, martial assets--and he chose to give her the cards to use)

3. Savings now gone,cards ran up, money gone, then he found out.
(again..martial assets)

4. Would not and will not work to make the money back
(he can't say she has refused to work, because she could prove she did work..maybe not the entire time of their marriage, but she did work)

5. Demands more and more money and refuses to work
(he does not HAVE to give into her demands)

6. Demands $225K of home repairs
(again, he does not have to give into her demands, just because she want's it doesn't mean he HAS to go into debt to provide it)

7. Demands trips
(again, HE did not and does not have to give into her demands--if he gave in it was his decision)

8. Demands he work more and more hours
(again, if he works more hours, that's on him..HIS decision, no matter what she 'demands')

9. Forged his checks
(this one he probably could have had her prosecuted for, but I don't know what the statue of limitations is)

10. Continues to runs up cards
(if she is continuing to do this..it's on him--He could very well close all the accounts)

11. Demands and gets a large allowance
(again, He doesn't HAVE to give her such a large allowance, HE, alone makes the decision to give that to her)

12. Drives 100 miles a day to spend more money
(if he cut up the cards, and dropped some of the allowance, this might change)

13. Lousy lover
(can't sue for that)

14. SEX withholder
(might be able to divorce for this, as an act of fraud)

15. Tells him in detail how she used to LOVE sex with her other boyfriends. Real nice.
(might be able to divorce for emotional distress)

16. Makes thier marriage unpleasant every day
(he chooses to stay in the unpleasant marriage, so that is on him)

17. Brings stress on HOLD and the kids by verbally abusing him
(again, might be able to divorce for abuse)

18. Eats too much
(he can't control that--but I don't think he can sue her for being a glutton)

19. Refuses to work at all. At home or on a job.
(she could prove otherwise, as she has worked outside the home at various times)

20. Demanded a houskeeper-she will not clean house
(he can refuse to pay for a house-keeper)

21. Insults HOLD in public
(again, he could divorce for abuse)

22. Demands trips, vacations, and jewelry.
(he does not have to give into her demands)

23. Does not care about HOLD ever retiring
(not sure about this one..I think she would love it if he could retire--as long as they could travel)

24. Gives HOLD an incurable disease
(he knew this was a possible consequence of his choice to have unprotected sex with her)

25. She could care less for anyone but herself
(unfortunately, I don't think you can divorce someone because they are selfish)

26. Treats HOLD bad in front of the kids.
(again, a good case towards abuse)

We could go on and on. Had it been my spouse, I would have divorced her years ago but I would not have had children so I dont know that end of it. I think I would have rather married a criminal than a "Mrs Hold".


Had you known the things he did before he married her, like she had an STD, You probably wouldn't have married her to begin with, because you would not have wanted to take that chance..

But the truth of the matter is, he's made choices for counseling, he's made choices to limit her access to credit cards, and has made great strides in certain areas..but even with the area of counseling, he has refused to stick with it, and find out WHY he thinks this is all he deserves..he has refused to look within and make the changes HE needs to inside himself..because like many others..he has the attitude that "I'm not gonna change unless they change first" even IF they are the one who is miserable with their life..

Which sounds pretty stupid to me..If I am miserable I'm the one who needs to change things so that *I* am not miserable anymore..
but the truth is..He finds comfort in being miserable, he thrives on it..and as the saying goes..Misery loves company..so he stays married so he has company in being miserable.

But in all honesty, I don't think Mrs. Hold is all that miserable--I think she's frustrated and acts out in that frustration..

I think she's one of those people who believe tearing someone down will make them want to change..as if tearing someone down will motivate them to want to change..focusing on the negative trying to change those things..instead of focusing on the positive and offering encouragement and building them up..which is what might actually be more helpful in bringing about the change..

That is something he does, instead of tearing her down about not losing more weight fast enough...he tries to encourage her..

Maybe that is something they could discuss sometime..why his encouragement towards her gets her upset..and him asking her if his tearing her down would actually get her more motivated to change (she would probably say it would piss her off) in which case he could ask.."then why, do you think tearing me down is going to motivate me to change to do more??" "Don't you think it pisses me off too to hear nothing but negative things being thrown at me all the time??" "Do you think yelling at me, and criticizing me causes me to want to try harder at work??" "Do you think it makes me want to take you on those fancy trips or buy you that expensive jewelry you love so much??" "Do you think tearing me down in public makes me want to take you out to a nice dinner or even a business trip with those I work with?"
"do you honestly think it makes me want to show you I love you, by doing those things for you??" No, it makes me angry and it hurts, and it makes me resent you, and it makes me wonder why I ever married you to begin with, and at times, it makes me wonder if I want to remain married to you in my old age if this is what it's going to be like for the rest of my life."

They need more openness and honesty in their marriage..but until he's ready to have that conversation..no matter what any of us say..it won't make a bit of difference..until he's ready to take that risk..and speak up for himself and follow through if things don't change..
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/15/09 07:57 PM
Stellakat;



 Quote:
Change is hard always.
Everybody has fears

What rules your life, FEAR? Fear of change? Fear of making a decision?

How could fear of change keep you in a life of heartache for many years?

Choices:

I choose the abuse rather than choosing to get away from the abuser because___________________.

I choose what I know, even if that is terrible, because in the past every choice I have made is bad and I will be punished for choosing at all.

I am not able to CHOOSE. I must remain STILL and PASSIVE and REFUSE TO BETTER MY LIFE.

I am NOT going to think about all my choices and CHOOSE the best one for me. After all, I am not worthy to have any kind of good life. I refuse to CHOOSE my life's direction.

The direction of my life IS NOT UP TO ME. It is up to _________and _______ and _______________.

I want to have nothing to do with the direction my life takes.

If I be HAPPY or if I be UNHAPPY, I simply REFUSE to make any changes. My happiness is unimportant.

I would rather be unhappy all my life than take a risk or make any changes.

CHANGE = DEATH.


I love this post...it bears repeating!!!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/09 04:36 PM
 Originally Posted By: ThornedRose
at times, it makes me wonder if I want to remain married to you in my old age if this is what it's going to be like for the rest of my life.


I am long past the wondering stage. Other than that, your post was spot on.

Mrs. Hold gained .6 pounds last week. She "cheated" twice and had pizza for dinner. And it may have something to do with her cycle. Hopefully this week will be better.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/09 05:33 PM
hold, are you going on walks or anything with MrsHold?
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/09 05:39 PM
hold


 Quote:
Mrs. Hold gained .6 pounds last week. She "cheated" twice and had pizza for dinner. And it may have something to do with her cycle. Hopefully this week will be better.


A couple slices of pizza are not the issue..a person can still lose weight even if they eat a couple slices of pizza..however, if she's like many (if not most) women, her being on her cycle may have more to do with it.

Has she gone to the doctor yet to have her thyroid tested to check if that is more the issue?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/09 06:39 PM
 Originally Posted By: catperson
hold, are you going on walks or anything with Mrs Hold?


As far as I can remember, Mrs. Hold and I have not spent any UA time since the kids got back from visiting the grandparents over New Years. Nevertheless, she got me risque Valentine's Day cards. She asked for a hug yesterday and 2 hugs this morning. Those are things I asked for and never got while we were working on our marriage. Makes staying with her more pleasant, but I am still unwilling to exit withdrawal.

In any event, what Stella and TR posted is true. To me, change = death and I will not change no matter how miserable I am. While that remains true, nothing else matters.
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/09 07:14 PM


In any event, what Stella and TR posted is true. To me, change = death and I will not change no matter how miserable I am. While that remains true, nothing else matters. [/quote]

Hold that is just plain stupid! Why does changing yourself and making yours and your families life better = death.

Man go get yourself some help!!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/17/09 08:06 PM
I will. I guess in these trying economic times everyone feels they need a shrink. I am having a hard time finding one with slots available. But I will.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/18/09 08:35 PM
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Hopefully I am unhappy enough to finally take some advice.


This hurts my head.

Hopefully... You're unhappy enough... To finally take some advice.

For what?

Be happy???

In order to be happy, you need to first be even more unhappy before you might take and follow the advice you're given?

Are you flailing H? Looks like you're flailing to me.


Actually it makes perfect sense if you've ever read the book Passionate Marriage by Schnarch. The concept of differentiation is what HOLD is referring to here, which is essentially the idea that within the context of an intimate relationship we will not engage in real change unless and until the pain of remaining the same outweighs the uncertain future that we face by changing. HOLD is undoubtedly capable of absorbing enormous amounts of pain and anxiety, as is Mrs HOLD, before choosing to better differentiate themselves, which is what is required for either of them to move forward at least in my view.

HOLD, been a long time since I've posted. I pray that Mrs HOLD bears fruit while participating in this newest weight loss endeavor. I know her weight gain has always been a real sticking point for you, and while I know resolving the weight issue by itself won't go nearly far enough to permit you to exit withdrawal and re-enter the conflict stage in an effort to get back to intimacy, it's better than the alternative yes?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/18/09 09:53 PM
Hey Hitch, thanks for stopping by. Hope your life is going well.

I am all in favor of Mrs. Hold losing weight. I have been as supportive as I know how to be. Mostly I like that it sets a good example for D12 (who lost 6 pounds over the past 4 months despite hitting puberty - so the hoped for resculpting of her body by hormones is occurring). Also, it is healthier for Mrs. Hold. Which I see as a good thing. After all, she is the mother of my children and I know they want her in their life as long as possible. Those are what I see as the "good" reasons I support her weight loss.

The "less good" reasons are that I expect to feel less embarrassed to be seen out with her if she loses significant amounts of weight. And if she loses significant amounts of weight then she is more likely to find someone else. Which I view as good for both of us. Which, given how much I have read here over the years about the pain of infidelity, shows you how much of a whack job I am.

You are correct that I used to view weight loss as something she could do to help improve our marriage. Now I am not looking to go through conflict to return to intimacy with her. When I am ready to differentiate I won't be changing in ways that bring us closer together. She may find me more desirable and try to chase me. But I will be running away.
Posted By: ThornedRose Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/09 05:22 AM
hold

 Quote:
Now I am not looking to go through conflict to return to intimacy with her. When I am ready to differentiate I won't be changing in ways that bring us closer together. She may find me more desirable and try to chase me. But I will be running away.


Though you are not looking to go through, I believe you would go through it. Because despite everything you have been through, you still love her.

I think the most difficult part for you, is going to be trusting she's really willing to change and work on the marriage. And you will go through what most people go through at that stage.."why now?? Why after all these years are you willing to do this when you haven't been willing before??"

But its possible all the anger you have been sitting on for so long will come out full force..probably not in a physically violent way but verbally..but I could be wrong, people snap all the time--you hear about these folks on the news when they interview neighbors.."they always seemed like such a nice couple, he was always so nice to her, I never expected anything like this."

So I think it would be best for you, your wife and your kids, if you work on that anger and resentment now..before you snap and either say or do something horrid, if she decides it's time to finally work on the marriage..or even to end it..

I think even then..you might snap, that it's taken her so long to decide she doesn't want to be married to you anymore..
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/09 04:10 PM
We can agree to disagree whether I would go through it or how much I still love her as a romantic partner rather than as the mother of my children and a fellow human being who I know has good intentions toward most other people.

As for working on our marriage, I am no longer open to that. We both need to work on ourselves first. If we both make major changes, maybe then we could discuss working on our marriage.

I agree with you that anger is my major life problem at this point. I am getting help for my personality disorder. I cannot imagine that my anger will toward Mrs. Hold will dissipate before our divorce.

But all things are possible, so I won't say never.
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/09 06:17 PM
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Hey Hitch, thanks for stopping by. Hope your life is going well.


HOLD, thanks for responding. Life is currently going as well as can be expected given the current economic climate. I am simply hoping to stay gainfully employed at this point. Relationally, W and I are on somewhat of a high right now and are really connecting and avoiding LB's consistently. I've also finally had some real victory over my narcissism and have become much more of a servant to her by spending a lot of my waking moments studying my W at every opportunity in an effort to love her in ways that are truly meaningful to her. Don't get me wrong it's oftentimes two steps forward one step back, but overall, I feel like we're in a good place right now and heading in the right direction consistently, PTL.

 Quote:
I am all in favor of Mrs. Hold losing weight. I have been as supportive as I know how to be. Mostly I like that it sets a good example for D12 (who lost 6 pounds over the past 4 months despite hitting puberty - so the hoped for resculpting of her body by hormones is occurring). Also, it is healthier for Mrs. Hold. Which I see as a good thing. After all, she is the mother of my children and I know they want her in their life as long as possible. Those are what I see as the "good" reasons I support her weight loss.


They are good reasons. Glad to hear about D12's success and progress as well. Small victories are worth celebrating! \:\) I'm actually in the exact opposite situation personally. D14 has recently been diagnosed with ED-NOS or Eating Disorder - Not Otherwise Specified. Closest to anorectic symptom-wise. This was a huge wake up call for us back in December and we are now in a mix of individual, family, and nutritional counseling due to this latest development. The good news is D14 is aware of her need to get better, but it's obviously still quite a large struggle for her, and therefore affects the entire family from many different aspects.

 Quote:
The "less good" reasons are that I expect to feel less embarrassed to be seen out with her if she loses significant amounts of weight. And if she loses significant amounts of weight then she is more likely to find someone else. Which I view as good for both of us. Which, given how much I have read here over the years about the pain of infidelity, shows you how much of a whack job I am.


HOLD, I don't see these as less good reasons. I don't see your EN for physical attraction as invalid in any way, shape, or form. I hear you on the concerns surrounding infidelity, but whatever her motivation, the result seems encouraging to say the least.

 Quote:
You are correct that I used to view weight loss as something she could do to help improve our marriage. Now I am not looking to go through conflict to return to intimacy with her. When I am ready to differentiate I won't be changing in ways that bring us closer together. She may find me more desirable and try to chase me. But I will be running away.


I know you feel that way now and you may very well be correct in your assertion that your feelings toward her will not change no matter what kind of success Mrs HOLD experiences. One of the realities that I've come to accept in relationships is that no matter how much one spouse improves, if the other spouse refuses to participate meaningfully, it is difficult for the intimate relationship to improve meaningfully. Yes, the hope is that the one spouse making improvements and changes by definition changes the dynamics of the intimate relationship, but the underlying assumption the the changes to the relationship dynamics are always going to be positive is what I no longer agree with. Positive change individually indeed can lead to negative change relationally. As you alluded to, if you better differentiate yourself, this may eventually mean that you actively choose to no longer be married to Mrs HOLD, not because of your ill will towards Mrs HOLD, but because you come to the realization that you can no longer violate your own integrity as an individual by staying in the marriage due to emotional fusion between the two of you. This is a perfect example of positive individual change leading to negative change relationally. Sure, it's entirely possible that better differentiating yourself could lead to Mrs HOLD responding in a similar fashion. At the very least, if this actually does occur and some type of positive relational change results, then perhaps at some point you may challenge your own assumptions with respect to the marriage. I'd submit that you'll have to cross that bridge if and when you come to it. \:\)
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/09 06:52 PM
Anything is possible. Previously, I did not imagine that I could be the partner she needs me to be while she works on her issues. She needs someone who will not pressure her for sex and not mind if it doesn't occur. I never thought I could be that partner. Now that I no longer desire to have sex with her, maybe I CAN be the partner she needs. Right now, I don't want to be that partner. But feelings can change. They changed in this direction. Presumably it is possible for them to turn back.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/19/09 10:45 PM
Since when is anger a "personality disorder"? Is that was this liberal, no-fault country is coming to? If you have anger then the problem lies in your head?

I seriously disagree. You have cause to feel anger, and depression too. Living in a situation like yours is not fulfilling, at least not in a lot of ways.

I would wager that if you won the lottery, and Mrs. Hold lost a ton of weight, she got a job and paid back everything she ever swindled, and she started having crazy sex with you, then you would feel quite happy and content and all of this talk about personality disorders would go out the window.

So it is causual. Work on the sources, not the symptoms.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/20/09 07:17 AM
Easy said what I have been saying all along.

If you are in a bad marriage, a bad situation and married to a miserable selfish woman, then you are SUPPOSED TO BE UNHAPPY!

Do you know why?

Unhappiness is sometimes a SIGN that tells you to protect yourself by removing yourself from a marriage like that. It is given us.....so that we dodos get the idea that we should NOT REMAIN IN THAT HURTFUL situation.

If you were on drugs, or crazy, or simply for some reason...happy...even with abuse and neglect, then your body would not recognize a bad situation, and therefore you would continue to be blasted with awfulness..
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/20/09 11:03 PM
At the same time, Hold gets blasted for making resolution to take steps for his own happiness (which probably includes things that would de-stabilize his family), and then falling back to status quo.

I see the situation as perfectly normal. And it has more to do with strength of character than it does mental disorder. The family comes first, no question about it.

My point to Hold is that there IS satisfaction out there, on all different levels. Anything from a nice massage from a hot, young provider to a full-on affair to a discreet one night stand. I'm using sexual examples here, because that seems to be Hold's dearest desire at the moment.

Hold has basically set his boundaries, but those boundaries don't have to be a prison. The world is rife with pleasurable offerings.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/21/09 12:28 AM
Excuse me? Are you telling Hold to go have a one-night stand?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/09 02:45 PM
 Originally Posted By: catperson
Excuse me? Are you telling Hold to go have a one-night stand?


Not to worry. It will never happen.
Posted By: EasyE Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/09 08:43 PM
I'm saying Hold doesn't have a personality disorder, his anger and depression is largely causual, and nobody shoulod blame him for hedging on making some drastic decision, ie divorce, that is
often talked about.

Perhaps I was out of line issuing those examples, but they are ones I would consider were I to find myself in Hold's situation.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/23/09 11:36 PM
I have read posts from Hold where he says that he was sad/depressed before he even met the missus. The situation with MrsHold probably has made this worse, but doesn't change the fact that he feels something wrong within himself.

I don't think that anger is a personality defect but an expression of inner unhappiness. I would imagine if he felt better about himself, for his own reasons, the situation with the Mrs would improve.

That said, I think his anger and stand-offishness is having an effect on the Mrs. Who knows she might even get a job some day!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/24/09 02:07 PM
 Originally Posted By: Happy2CU
I don't think that anger is a personality defect but an expression of inner unhappiness. I would imagine if he felt better about himself, for his own reasons, the situation with the Mrs would improve.


You are correct that if I felt better about myself, the situation with Mrs. Hold would resolve itself. Whether leaving her would be an "improvement" is for each reader to judge.

 Quote:
That said, I think his anger and stand-offishness is having an effect on the Mrs. Who knows she might even get a job some day!


She will not get a job while we are married and I retain my job. She has made that very clear despite my being clear about all the things I have no intention of paying for. Every time she asks "when are we going to _____?", I respond with "whenever you can pay for it yourself." There are even things for the kids that she wants that I have rejected (save the date cards for D12's Bat Mitzvah, another travel basketball team for S14). Nothing seems important enough for her to work to obtain it.

Then again, the same could be said about me. As I have often remarked, we are very well matched.
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/24/09 05:01 PM
Sad Sad Sad as adults you two can play the games, feel sorry for yourselves all you want. The really horrible fact of your issues is how it will affect your children longterm. They both are old enough to figure out what is going on. If you don't make some changes soon you will have two kids who may grow up with alot of their own issues because they spent their lives dealing with yours.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/24/09 07:16 PM
Agreed. That is why I never say I am staying FOR the kids. I am staying with the kids. I am staying with them for ME.
Posted By: jillybean43 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/24/09 08:57 PM
So, you , are saying, that you don't care what issues they will have growing up then. That is not important enough for you to seek help and make changes in your life. Hold, you get one chance in life. You get one chance at being these kids father. There is no rewind button. God I wish there was. I wish every day that I would have done things differently when my kids were young. I wish I would have not been an enabler in my ex husbands mental illness and either sought help for him or left but I didn't have the information resources then as I do now. I didn't realize that something was wrong. You however do have the resources and support with this forum. Again this is not about your wife she has to deal with her own demons this is about you. You need to deal with yours so you can raise healthy well adjusted children.
Posted By: Stellakat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/24/09 09:35 PM
Let me add to what Jilly said. Your kids are being affected NOW by the sick relationship you and thier mother have.

1. Your son was suicidal and needs mental health help
2. Your daughter has an eating problem and eats to cover up her confustion and hurt.

So, you still have time to divorce thier mother and become a healthy strong role model for them. But not much time. Those kids are troubled and affected every day by that selfish disrespectful mother and by you, the supreme enabler.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 03/04/09 10:00 PM
Hold, you've been really effective protecting your family from your W's financial shortcomings once you became aware of the problem. Do you have any advice for Tama or Cat?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/09/09 08:05 PM
Since the program began in January, Mrs. Hold has lost 24 pounds. Including 7 pounds lost since the formal program ended on March 8. She has gone from a size 18 to a size 12. We are going away this weekend to visit family, and she "complained" that most of her outfits are too loose. Except the one she found downstairs that she hasn't been able to get into in years. Kudos to Mrs. Hold.
Posted By: Esox Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/09/09 08:16 PM
Hold,

Thanks for posting to me over on my thread.

Have you thought of getting her a new outfit, or some flowers, or? to mark the accomplishment? I know it won't help your marriage, but I think it would show caring for your kid's mother; if not your wife.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/09/09 08:32 PM
Kudos! Has this rubbed off on your daughter, the new food choices, the increased activity?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/09/09 08:35 PM
Esox
At the moment I am not enthusiastic about being demonstrative in terms of material items.

I do tell her frequently how much I respect the progress she has made, how impressed I am with her commitment, and how good she looks. I compliment her in front of friends. Last night I complimented her openly in front of some of our best friends and their family. I tell the kids she is "melting away" and "shrinking before our eyes". I ask her every day about her exercise class. Which one she took. Who lead the class. How it went for her. I encourage her to take the long view and imagine how she will feel in the fall at D12's party if she continues to lose weight slowly but steadily.

At this point, I am not making enough progress in my "stuff" to expend more energy trying to improve our marriage or rebuild my romantic love for her. I have to stay focused on my stuff. Just wanted to pass along the good news about Mrs. Hold. Lord knows I complain about her enough around here. So when she deserves praise, I want to praise her here too.

Originally Posted By: ears_only
Kudos! Has this rubbed off on your daughter, the new food choices, the increased activity?


Thank you for asking. Yes, D12 is doing better. The new food choices help. The kids tend to eat for dinner whatever Mrs. Hold makes and these days she cooks healthier. Also, D12 has hit puberty and the resculpting of her body helps. She weighs the same as 6 months ago but she is taller and shaped differently. Less in her belly and more other places. We didn't want to jinx ourselves by hoping for this, but we knew it was possible and are gratified it has occurred.

D12 does not exercise more than before, because Mrs. Hold tends to exercise when the kids are in school. But this is peak competition time for D12's synchro team so she is in the pool alot.
Posted By: Esox Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 04/09/09 08:38 PM
I understand about the material stuff. I really do.

I have some stuff of my own to sort out.


Have a good weekend.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 06:28 PM
Mrs. Hold has lost a total of 27 pounds and continues to exercise daily. Often she takes 2 classes per day. She should soon break through the 160 pound barrier.

Today she got tangible proof how far she has progressed. She had her annual mammogram, and each breast fit onto a single film. First time ever, since she only started getting mammograms after she gained the weight with D12. I congratulated her on her progress, and told her I hope that next year they can use one of the smaller size films - but that I will support her even if she continues to require a large film wink grin.

Also, we have basically resolved our sexual mismatch. I can no longer achieve or maintain erections, so I don't bother her for sex. She still hisses at me to stay on my side of the bed, but I no longer mind complying. Not the resolution I was hoping for, but less stressful than before.
Posted By: curious53 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 06:31 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I can no longer achieve or maintain erections


You're on anti-depressants, right? If not, please see a doc to rule out any medical problems (heart disease, prostate stuff).
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 06:59 PM
Oops, double post.
Posted By: dkd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 07:04 PM
Then get you some Viagra. Insurance will only cover so much...and it's not enough. Start stockpiling now.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 07:06 PM
Originally Posted By: curious53
You're on anti-depressants, right?


Nope. No medications. Couldn't stay hard with Mrs. Hold last few times we had sex. Difficulty staying hard each time I masturbated since the last time with her. This is not medical. This is inside my head, just like all my other problems.

Anyway, the good news is that Mrs. Hold is making progress. We aren't getting along any better, but right now our lives are more about our own journeys than about relating to one another. So her progress is evidence that our incompatibility need not prevent either of us from achieving life goals.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 07:12 PM
Originally Posted By: dkd
Then get you some Viagra. Insurance will only cover so much...and it's not enough. Start stockpiling now.


?????????????

When you have sex as infrequently as we do, if insurance covers ANY Viagra it is more than enough. I bought a box of condoms in 2004 and we still have several left. Of course a few times we did not use one, but that won't happen again.

Anyway, why would I want Viagra? That would imply I want to have sex with Mrs. Hold. These days I prefer to avoid sex. Not being able to achieve erection means I am less likely to pursue her for sex when I get horny. So Viagra is the last thing I want. I can reach orgasm through masturbation even without the erection, so I don't have to worry about clogging up the plumbing.
Posted By: dkd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 07:35 PM
Hey, I'm not having sex either, but I do intend to again, so I've got some pills stored up.

I understand that you don't want to have sex right now, but it seems that getting the pills would be a proactive of telling yourself that the current conditions are not what you want, and that you expect them to change. Also, getting the pills doesn't mean you have to take them, it is a couscious decision still. Even if you do, it doesn't make you sexually attracted to someone, your body still has to react to the stimulous. Your reaction is just...enhanced.

Honestly, your acceptance of the situation seems to be a way at getting back at your W in a way. "Look what you've done to me. The lack of sex has screwed me up to where I can't have sex anymore." Even though she doesn't want to do anything with you, showing that you don't even care about it has to hurt her feelings. I think doing something about it shows that you give a dang about her and about yourself.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 09:51 PM
Originally Posted By: dkd
it seems that getting the pills would be a proactive of telling yourself that the current conditions are not what you want, and that you expect them to change.


Agreed. But I don't expect the conditions to change. And I am choosing to stay with Mrs. Hold anyway. So getting the pills would just drive me crazy. I would feel hurt every time I saw them and realized it was the same number of pills as the last time I saw them. No thanks.

Originally Posted By: dkd
Honestly, your acceptance of the situation seems to be a way at getting back at your W in a way.


Perhaps. Or perhaps it is my way of sending the message that she ought to start looking for another guy to meet her needs. My subconscious is so mixed up these days, who knows what message it is trying to send.

Originally Posted By: dkd
Even though she doesn't want to do anything with you, showing that you don't even care about it has to hurt her feelings.


Not sure I agree with this one. She is very quick to complain if I move around the bed in a way that she perceives could potentially mean I am moving toward her. Even when I have no intention of going anywhere near her (which is pretty much all the time once we get under the covers). I only move toward her when we are above the covers, and then only to lay my head on her thigh. Sometimes she strokes my back and I find that pleasurable so I admit I seek that out. But I don't make any moves on her. No wandering hands. After a few minutes I go back to my side of the bed. Then when we get under the covers I stay on my side with a wall of pillows between us.

So if it bothers her that I can't get it up anymore, she has given no sign of it. Remember, we are talking 2 or 3 instances over the past 5 months. So it isn't like she keeps putting the moves on me and I reject her. And of course she is completely unaware of my performance problems during masturbation, since that is an activity that dare not state its name in our house.

Nevertheless, I guess it is possible that it bothers her but she hasn't communicated that to me. Would I do anything about it if she did? Hmmmm, that is an excellent question.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/11/09 10:59 PM
I am sorry but you married a very difficult woman. You tried everything to get your marriage to be more functional and great. You tried all you could to stop her from spending you blind and have her willing to make love on a regular basis.

Instead, she slams you in bed, disparages you daily in front of the children and alone, spends all the money she can get her paws on, refuses to work, demands trips, dinners, beauty treatments and lunches. She will not abide by the limited spending rules you set down again and again.

She has absolutely NO respect or love for you HOLD and your important private parts know this.

She has also RUINED you SEXUALLY by her 12 years of angry disparagement and overt rejection of you in bed and put downs of you sexually. You are now sexually warped. With another loving woman you may eventually recover, maybe not.

THIS WOMAN SHOULD BE PUT IN PRISON AND TORTURED LIKE SHE TORTURES YOU GLEEFULLY EACH AND EVERY DAY.
Posted By: AverageGuy Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 02:52 AM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit

I can no longer achieve or maintain erections, so I don't bother her for sex.


Uh, Hold, how old are you? A couple of months ago I started to notice that I can't pop a woody as easily I I could when I was 20 years old. Well, the benefit is that I no longer embarass myself when I see a cute chick, on the street, but unfortunately it takes me a while to get going in the bedroom. Ouch!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 11:11 AM
AG:

Yes, I understand and agree about the age related changes. And yes, it is welcome that I don't pop wood at the cute young associates. But not being able to achieve erections even during masturbation is an unwelcome change. Not saying it takes longer or takes direct stimulation where mental imagery was sufficient before. Saying that even with continued direct stimulation and potent mental fantasy there is little or no reaction.

I think Bubbles, although over the top and excessively negative toward Mrs. Hold, is on target. I am warped. And unlikely to heal while I stay with Mrs. Hold.
Posted By: Wknghrd2LoveEasy Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 12:32 PM
Hold,

I have never posted to you before, but read your posts regularly. Please forgive me for butting into this delicate subject. I may be a woman but I actually know a bit about it.

If you have not had it done, please consider having your testosterone levels checked. Testosterone is important for SO much more than sex in a man. It helps determine his moods, his strength, his ability to sleep and think clearly. Low levels make it difficult to exercise and muscle mass sometimes shrinks even if you are attempting to exercise. It affects the functioning of the thyroid and can affect the heart. Low tstosterone weakens the bones. You have many symptoms of possible low testosterone, including your depression.

Lower testosterone does indeed occur as men get older, but sometimes it just drops too low.

My BIL has been depressed for a number of years. He has become increasingly less motivated, lost weight, can't sleep and had all the accompanying sexual problems. My H and I really believed that low testo was the culprit. My sister was finally able to convince him to get it checked. Low and behold, his testo levels were at the bottom range of what is considered normal(200-900). He began to use testosterone supplements and HIS LIFE WAS TRANSFORMED. I am not kidding.

The impotant thing to remember is that testosterone is not produced by the body merely so a man can have an erection. A male body needs it for countless other reasons.

I have been DISGUSTED by doctors though who laugh when a man wants his levels checked or insist that as long as the level is at 200 or above that things are just fine.

I am condensing this because I only have a few minutes to write, but would SOOOO encourage you to consider this possibility. Not so you can have sex with Mrs. Hold, but so you can feel better than you have maybe felt in years.

Blessings,
Posted By: dkd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 01:58 PM
1st, Bubbles, I don't think it's fair to Hold to belittle his wife so strongly. By that I mean that Hold allows this to happen and needs to take some control over what happens to him in his life. Not blame, but control. He is not damaged goods and still very capable of some amazing things.

Hold, from my experience, a woman will tell you that she doesn't want any physical attention from you, but still wants to know that you find her attractive. Maybe that sounds insensitive, don't know. I'd get the pills for you, because as you admitted, it bother's how you feel about yourself, which is extremely important. Get your T levels checked if that's what you needed.

Why are you trying to send Ms.Hold a message. If you want her to go get another guy, then tell her that. Be honest with her, be honest with yourself. I understand that you have a no hope for a happy marriage but what to keep the shell in tact. I still don't think that's a good reason to lie to yourself.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 05:23 PM
Mrs. Hold knows I find her attractive. I pinch her butt and tell her she is beautiful on a daily basis. I refer to her as the incredible shrinking wife. I tell her how great she looks and how impressed I am with her progress. She does not need sexual attention from me to feel attractive. I think if I never had another erection and never attempted to have sex with her she would be very pleased.

I would agree with you that I should get the pills if I intended to have more sex. Not being able to perform sexually with my wife would be damaging to my self-esteem. But as long as we don't have sex, it doesn't matter. I am not going to pay money for pills so I can perform better during masturbation. To me that feels like some kind of cruel joke I am playing on myself. I would get the pills if I needed to them to achieve orgasm. But as long as I can orgasm, my hand is not going to complain about the state of my erections during masturbation.

I do intend to demand a testosterone check. I'll tell my doctor that I have problems sleeping (I do) as well as loss of muscle tone and erectile dysfunction. That should be enough to get the test authorized. Who knows, maybe they will find something is wrong. If the doctor tells me to take Viagra, I guess I will accept some sample pills.

But if my right hand starts becoming more demanding, I am going to blame you people!
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 05:49 PM
Hi Hold,

You're in a tough sitch. ED can by a symptom of something else, so better have the doc check you up.

What are you doing for yourself lately?
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/12/09 09:01 PM
Quote:
But if my right hand starts becoming more demanding, I am going to blame you people!



rotflmao

This is becoming the male version of the feminine hygiene products aisle. LOL
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/15/09 01:43 PM
Mrs. Hold broke through another "decade" barrier today. Tens digit went from 6 to 5. Good for her.

She is driving D12 and teammates to Binghamton NY for regional swimming competition. If they place in top 4, they make nationals.

I will be taking S14 to state basketball championships this weekend. Top 3 teams make nationals.

So wish all the kids good luck!
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/15/09 02:29 PM
Hold, I agree about the testosterone thing. In fact, many men are diagnosed with depression and put on ADs (which then worsens the sexual issues) when the real issue is the testosterone level. There is a chart somewhere on the web that truly shows what T levels should be according to age and it's not the farcical one that says anything over 200 is fine. That's fine for an 80 year old, maybe.

My H had this issue and I think it happened after he had his gall bladder out and developed some unforseen complications and got very ill. Somehow, his hormones were completely out of whack after that. And he was on ADs at the time. Finally, a doc said to him--let's test your T levels. And though they were well over 200, they were still well shy of where they should be. They kept him on the ADs but also put him on Testosterone. Wow, what a difference. He felt better physically as well as mentally, his sleep problems went away and his sexual issues resolved. And he was eventually able to discontinue. His body just needed a kick-start.

Even though he refuses to consider ADs again now, I wish he'd go back and get his T levels checked again. I think this latest round of stress from his layoff last year has screwed up his hormones again.

And good luck to the kids! My middle son was in US Swimming for about 4 years and made jr.nationals. I wish he hadn't given it up but he prefers the high contact/team sports.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/18/09 09:59 AM
D12 made nationals as an 11-12 soloist. Her 13-15 team also made nationals - extremely impressive since (i) one girl dropped out last week so they had 8 days to rechoreograph the entire routine to deal with her absence and (ii) the drop out left them with only 6 girls and there are increasing penalties for each person less than a "full" team of 8. As far as we know, no other team in the region as small as 6 made nationals.

Unfortunately, S14 did not fare as well. They won twice on Saturday (one in double overtime) but then lost twice on Sunday (once by a single point) to be eliminated. No nationals for them. Their biggest guy broke his wrist 2 weeks ago, so he was not at 100%. And their best player tore his ACL a few months ago so they have been less dominant than previous years all season.

As it happens, my uncle from Chicago was in town for business meeting on Friday so he stayed around and joined me to watch the games Saturday. That was a very nice day.

I don't think S14 was as upset as D12 would have been, so in the bigger picture the weekend results were fine. Now we just need to figure out how S14 will be spending his summer since he will not be having daily basketball practice.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/18/09 10:22 AM
Congrats on both your kids even being in a position to be doing these things! It really hit my D18 hard this year, when all the people her age are showing their accomplishments (and getting scholarships for them), and she has nothing to show for it. She pushes herself studywise, but wouldn't do sports, dropped out of choir, too clumsy for dance (though she did it for 3 years), just never wanted to belong to anything like that. Now it's hurting her.

That said...
As for S14, why not just let him vegetate, hang out with friends, read books, go hiking, play street ball, whatever he feels like? I truly think that we put too much onus on kids to be always performing and achieving, and that's why kids are so stressed out these days. They never have quiet time. They never spend two hours straight with no music, tv, games, or programmed activity.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/18/09 02:19 PM
Congrats hold! That's really cool about D12. It sounds like S14 also did well, even if his team didn't win it all. The important thing is to have fun and to learn good skills - physical skills, and social skills like good sportsmanship.

I totally understand feeling torn when one kid wins more than another. Our S7b won his boy scout pack's Pinewood Derby, so he went to the regionals a couple weekends ago. Of course if S7b won, that means S7a didn't. Which really sucked because S7a was totally thrilled and excited for S7b when he won his first heat. It would've been nice if such enthusiasm had been rewarded by S7a also doing well. But we try to encourage them to be supportive of each other's accomplishments, and we try to make it a positive experience for them both.

IMO you've got a great couple of kids there. They are doing wonderfully!
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/18/09 03:48 PM
Hi Hold,

I read that the book NMMNG got your attention. It's an easy to read book, yet very hard to do the break free exercises.

I think this might sum up what the book tell you. Your marriage will change to how you lead it, or it's been dead and you moving on is over due.

As you say, whatever Mrs Hold accomplishes from this weight loss program, you're on your way to running away.

Even though you know you're miserable, you feel you aren't in the position to make that decision. You're not ready, or there's no perfect time to break off, and you fear the unknown outcomes.

Perhaps you're afraid to be alone. You don't want to gamble the outcome of the custodial arrangements of the kids. I understand those fears.

You want to do the changes, but for some reason, there isn't enough factor to push you in deciding. I wonder, how far Mrs Hold needs to push over your boundaries before you make a decision to end the M?

If she gets another man, would that be enough? I think she might believe that, so she probably won't do that, and still get away with pretty much anything at your cost.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 05/18/09 04:10 PM
Originally Posted By: jayne241
It sounds like S14 also did well, even if his team didn't win it all. The important thing is to have fun and to learn good skills - physical skills, and social skills like good sportsmanship.


Yes, I agree it was a good experience for S14. Several of the dads in attendance complimented him on his play. Including some who are coaches of other age groups associated with the same organization who sponsors his team.

And it was great for him to play with people from a different background. He was the only suburban kid on an inner city team. So the culture was very different than on his local school and town travel teams. Just dealing with the other kids at practice was an education for him. Socially. Culturally. And he had to step up his game to handle the fast pace they use. he wasn't used to being on the receiving end of no look passes. Also, we played many games at inner city gyms. We were in a league based at the rec center of a low income housing project. Very eye opening for him to see the way those kids were basically the same as him but at the same time the way some of their lives differed.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 01:55 PM
Update:

Getting close to D12's party, and the money issues are causing nightly friction. I stay calm and "just say no" no matter how unreasonable I view the requests. After all, it is a DJ to think I know better than Mrs. Hold what is reasonable and unreasonable.

As for the rest of the relationship, there basically isn't one.

Mrs. Hold feels I have emotionally withdrawn. Which is true. She feels pain over that. Which is understandable. She wants me to comfort her in her pain. Which is not going to happen. Well, not anytime soon or without huge behavioral changes on her part.

As for sex, pretty much status quo. Except that I have communicated to her my current views. No sex unless and until we are able to talk about it outside the bedroom.

If I am convinced that she is an unrecovered rape victim, then I am obliged to refrain from sex until she seeks treatment. That she argues otherwise is not conclusive. If she can talk to me about what she likes and doesn't like sexually, then I can at least rationalize that she is sufficiently recovered to have sexual relations. If she cannot bring herself to discuss sex at all, then I have to stick with my gut feeling that she is not.

This is not about me and her. This is about me and me. Having the self-respect not to have sex with an unrecovered victim.

People have often asked me over the years why I still desired to have sex with her. Easy. I was wrong. Weak. Damaged. And sought to put a band-aid on my wounds. Hopefully I will now do what is needed to heal myself. Rather than trying to use my wife's body as first aid.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 02:31 PM
Hold...for what it's worth, I think personal integrity, especially in difficult living situations, is imperative. Intent is something that I would review frequently in your situation, just to make sure this is about integrity and not revenge of any sort, kwim? No offense intended.

Anyway, also wanted to mention that there are likely plenty of women out there who are not super comfortable discussing sex and aren't victims. Just saying...? Think we discussed this before.

Go with what feels right. Hang in there.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 02:50 PM
Soolee:

I admit it is possible that Mrs. Hold "just" be uncomfortable talking about sex, as many other women are. And that it might not be PTSD / trauma at work. But at this point, I can't think of anything else that operates as a "test" to see whether she is recovered - as she says she is. All aspects of her behavior other than verbal protestations say she is not.

My motivation is not revenge. It is self-preservation. I need something that helps me feel comfortable with my decision not to have sex with her. This seems to work. Whenever I get an urge, I think about what happened to her, and what it says about me that I desire to have sex with her, and I am able to control the urge and not act on it.

I agree that the "test" is in part designed to prevent sex occurring. Not to punish Mrs. Hold. Frankly, I don't think she will mind except as so far as it reduces her ability to control me through rationing access. Rather because having sex with her sporadically drives me nuts so I prefer not having it at all.

The talking is mostly about getting me comfortable that sporadic sex is OK. Like any other RC that we do only occassionally rather than regularly. If we can discuss her likes and dislikes and set some ground rules for what is OK and not OK for me to suggest during a session, then maybe I can get comfortable with going back to having sporadic sex. Otherwise, I am not enthusiastic. wink

See, unlike everything else I do, this is very MB-ish. No sex without a POJA first. And I don't see how we can POJA without talking about it! stickout
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 02:52 PM
Hey Hold? It might just work - who knows. Keeping my fingers crossed for you.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 04:01 PM
Hold I only came back on here to help YOU. I am busy with my own life and my marriage is really great now because of two things. I asked my husband to help with the kitchen and he not only took over that area of maintenance of the home but does the vacuming and cleaning of the house (between monthly HK visits) that we need to do. He watches the same amount of TV but watches some shows I like so we can watch those together.

Also, we were falling back into bad sex patterns like "forgetting" to have it for a month or more. I brought it up to him and suggested maybe we jump on the once weekly sex to improve it. I told him I loved him so much that when we have regular frequent sex, MY BODY feels like it loves him even more.

And I feel content and in love if we have sex about once a week. So he has made an effort to hold to that and it has been great. When you aim for once a week, yet if you get too busy for sex on a certain night, you can postpone it for a day or two and still make up for it.

If you do not plan the once weekly sex, then there is "nothing to make up for" and no REGULAR pattern to develop that you can both "divert from occasionally".

Enough about me. HOLD, I feel certain that you can have conversations about sex with your wife if you approach them the right way.

If you ask her to have a conversation about sex, then you are putting too much of the responsibility of that on her. Rather, you need to just START TALKING about one aspect of sex and catch her off guard.

Do not ask her to TALK ABOUT SEX. She will say NO. Instead, just start talking about it. Smile, touch her hand, and ask a few minor sexual things...starting with one little thing a day, to get her used to talking about it. She used to talk to you about her other sex partners when you went for drinks, etc that proves to me that she can talk openly about sex and that accidently and sadly now, you are maybe the one turning her off of talking about it with you.

To get the conversation moving, you could ask her:

Hi there, when you had sex,, did you ever do_________?

Hey, honey.... did you ever do _________?

(see what she says, do not go into a long conversation just bring up the question)

I like it when you do ______________in bed with me. Do you like that too?

Sometimes I like it when you do ___________, what do you think about that?

Do you prefer ___________ or _____________?

I know you used to really like sex from past conversations......(let her respond, do not say anymore)

Remember when we used to talk about sex while having drinks at that bar? That was cool wasnt it. (or, I think that was cool we used to talk about it)

I like talking about sex, maybe sometime you can I can speak about it. (look her in the eye, smile and walk calmly and happily out of the room)

(HOLD, REMEMBER YOU WANT TO toss out one question, keep it light and walk away. you do not want to try and trap her into some long conversation. you want to use these simple statements and happy questions as BAIT for keeping her coming back for more sex conversations. YOU ACTUALLY WANT TO SET UP A DRAMA AND MAKE HER CRAVE MORE AND MORE TALK ABOUT SEX. YOU HAVE TO BE REALLY SMART TO DRAW HER IN TO A CONVERSATION LIKE THIS. YOU HAVE TO MAKE HER WANT TO SPEAK ABOUT IT. OFFER REWARDS FOR HER DOING THIS. REWARDS COULD BE A LOOK OR A SMILE, A TOUCH OR A HUG.


Anyhow I do not have time to think up 100 sex conversation starters for you, you can think them up and write them out for yourself. But you get the general idea. If you make conversations with sex both pleasant and fulfilling you will gradually draw her toward you in that area and increase her comfort in talking about sex. More and more she will be comfortable talking about sex. This should translate over into improvements in the bedroom.

But not all at once, it will take months to break both your bad neglectful frozen conversation techniques regarding talking about sex.

At this time, the sex talk is fraught with bad feelings so it is no wonder she does not want to talk about it. There are failed expectations between you two revolving around sex issues in the marriage. Probably even conversing with sex brings up a lot of guilt, shame, anger, hurt, hostility and dissapoinment. If talking about sex makes you feel bad for any reason, you will want to avoid talking about it.

There are many categories and levels of "feeling bad about sex" which would freeze out any conversations about it. Yet all these could be overcome by good (in fact, perfect) conversation techniques.

Here are some things that could be affecting or blocking or getting in the way of good conversations about sex.

1. Her (bad or good) feelings about sex
2. Your feelings about sex and rejection
3. Her rejection of you sexually
4. Unexpressed hostility
5. Low self esteem
6. Bad coping devices like ignoring things
7. Her past sexual experiances
8. Your past sexual experiances
9. How neither one feels like there is any posibility of sucess
10. How the other parts of your lives fit (her overspending, etc)
11. The trust factors
12. How close your hearts are to one another
13. How openly you converse about other things
14. Bad general dynamics of your marriage
15. The lack of positives in your marriage
16. The weakness or strength of your love for one another
17. The lack of respect for one another
18. The personal fortitude, or lack of,that you have to persist with this
19. The desire, or lack of....to learn to express your needs to one another
20. The desire or lack of.... to have better conversations
21. The lack of time you spend learning how to properly converse
22. The X factor in your marriage
23. Underlying feelings/thoughts that are unexpressed
24. Actually how good or bad the sex really is....


There is so much more, I should write a book. I hope you can try this approach HOLD, you need to have a PLAN and start to approach this from a larger point of view.

The other way I have thought of is if you would FIRST learn to converse WELL ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE besides sex. You could then lay the groundwork or BRIDGE between you two and increase your abilities to simply converse. Once you have laid enough of that good groundwork which includes great conversation in other areas of your marriage, then you could introduce the sex talk. That is yet another of the 100 ways to approach this.

If you think BY SIMPLY asking her to talk about sex,,,,that this will ever work, you are wrong.

You have to be so much more skilled and sophistocated and know what is "actually going on" in your marriage, with your and her feelings, and with your lives, that prevent good conversations NOW ....before you will even be able to approach this delicate sophistocated and complex issue..... properly.

Sexual conversations are both "the touchiest" and yet the "most wonderful" of any conversations in marriage. You have to work up slowly and carefully to these. You have to learn good approaches to all your marital conversing but especially in this area.

YOU CAN DO THIS, but it is way more complex than you think.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 08:03 PM
Thanks for the advice. Sounds like it has a chance of working. I will try it and let you know. If I am staying, I might as well try to make the best of it. No problem with rejection, because I have no expectation of any response. I will not DJ and predict negative reaction on her part. Who kows, maybe she will surprise me!
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 08:07 PM
Hold,

I hope you allow yourself to be surprised.

And to really not predict, expect, assume she will reject...to be right.

Just my own experience talking. smile

Hey, you gotta tell me the date of the big day for your DD...it's been in my mind for over a year and a half, I think, on your behalf, and I think it's significant when it's over. Something new on it's way...more clarity...if only we can reach that darn date.

If you don't want to say the date, then at least say a date it will have happened by...'k? Something...anything...just beggin' here...

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/28/09 08:27 PM
LA:

The date will have passed by Thanksgiving. The day of the religious ceremony is also my parents' 50th wedding anniversary and S14's birthday. So it is a big celebration.

Mrs. Hold got off the phone today with the entertainment and the caterer. We are "importing" the entertainment from Long Island. So it should be a novel treat for our guests from the "boonies" where we live in CT. And the caterer is more reasonably priced than the one we used for S14's. So Mrs. Hold is getting the "wow factor" she wants from the entertainment and I am getting the "cost factor" I want from the caterer.

We had a "dress emergency" last night. D12 HATES the custom made dress they picked up yesterday. Then she pulls out a black sequin dress from her closet. I think it is perfect. Mrs. Hold thinks it is too short. No budget left for a new dress. Dad tried to save it by buying a silver motorcycle jacket on Ebay that matches D12's shoes and allows her to "punk" her dress. Or maybe we will buy a 2" strip of fabric from JoAnne's and have the seamstress sew it onto the bottom of the black dress. We shall see how this is resolved.

D12 has learned all her prayers. I am almost done learning my reading from the Torah. I sent the brochure explaining the week's Torah reading to the rabbi for approval. So we have all the religious duties taken care of.

Now we just to "speciate" all the stuffed animals that D12 is donating to Ronald McDonald House as her mitzvah project.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 12:03 AM
Speciate? That's a new one for me.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 11:50 AM
Far as I know we made the word up. Divide up the animals by species. So all the cats in one pile. Frogs in another. Etc. The centerpiece of each table will be a pile of animals from a single species. So there will be a puppy table, a bear table, etc.

Did a "drive by" comment about sex last night. Mrs. Hold smiled and nodded but said nothing. As bubbles said, this will take time and require skill on my part.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 02:24 PM
As long as you don't speciate in public, Hold.

smile

I like your creativity, and was thinking of something fun to lengthen the dress...like soft pink netting, only a couple inches longer. smile

You're the coolest father on earth to look up a way to punk her dress a bit. IMO.

I think you make tons of love deposits with the way you meet the FC EN. I wonder if you do the same for MrsHold, too...where your verve shines to make whatever she is frustrated with less frustrating through humor, creativity and loyalty.

Did you consider my idea years and years ago to make a statement box for her as a gift? Where you type up in single sentences each thing you love liking about her...where you appreciate, celebrate, admire...and you cut them into little slips and put them in a fancy box, so she can pull one out whenever she wants?

You'd have to curb your humor impulse, though...I just flashed on you writing "I like your species."

laugh

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 03:39 PM
LA: Thanks for hanging in with me. I know I am not always the most cooperative "patient". My problem has never been making deposits. It is the fact that I make even bigger withdrawals by (i) desiring sex, (ii) wanting her to control her spending, and (iii) being angry - and letting it show - when she doesn't. I have the funny, smart, entertaining part down pat. It is the strong, tough, dependable, self-reliant part I need help with.

Bubbles: Did another drive by today. Mrs. Hold called to ask about party stuff. At the end I said "I was thinking reverse cowgirl, what do you think?" She replied "you'll have to educate me." I explained. She said "that is easier when one is slightly lighter." I said "well you are more than slightly lighter, you are lots lighter." Left it at that. I view that as a positive exchange. Keep it short and sweet.

Of course, I don't have any expectation of DOING reverse cowgirl anytime soon (I don't expect any sex at all anytime soon). But it seems your idea about drive by comments is working. Thanks sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much. smile
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 03:50 PM
HOW VERY COOL of you to do these drive-bys! I was imagining how this would work in my house because I'd *love* to have had something like this during the periods of time we seemed out of touch with each other. And I can imagine H saying short, witty things like this and I can imagine myself saying almost exactly what Mrs. H said (the self-depreciating comment about being lighter, etc.)., except that I'm pretty sure H would have gotten angry, accused me of taking the fun out of what he was trying to do, missing the point of what he was trying to do and then slamming me with "I'm just trying to lighten things up a little which is what you SAY you want. But with that kind of reaction, I'll never do that again."

This is not an assumptive DJ. This type of things happens all the time when my response is not what he wanted.

So, kudos to you, Hold. I think you made a sizeable lovebank deposit and perhaps, since you weren't expecting any specific type of comment or reaction in return, her reply didn't make any withdrawal for you!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 03:57 PM
No withdrawal at all. Limitation of this medium. Written words don't convey Mrs. Hold's tone. She wasn't complaining that it wouldn't work until she gets lighter. She was happily noting that it would be easier now that she IS lighter. Or at least, that is how I chose to interpret the words.

So it was in fact a huge deposit. grin
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 06:06 PM
Hold,

I wasn't thinking of you meeting her ENs more...or that you don't do sufficiently...

I was thinking this would be for you.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/29/09 07:00 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
I wasn't thinking of you meeting her ENs more...or that you don't do sufficiently...I was thinking this would be for you.


You mean she would give ME compliments? Oh, well, she does that from time to time. Problem is, I don't care. I don't want compliments. I want sex. And I want her to get a job and help pay down the credit card balances.

Compliments from her are not "rocks in the river" to me. They are grains of sand in the river. They don't pile up to make a bridge. They get washed down stream.

I understand that is partly about my internal dialogue. When she gives me a compliment, my internal reaction is "yeah right". Or maybe "so what". I don't feel thankful for the compliment. I feel like it is either a lie. Or besides the point. If she really thinks I am smart or funny or a good father, then she should show her appreciation by jumping my bones. If she doesn't want to jump my bones, I don't care whether she thinks I am smart or funny or a good father.

After all, plenty of people here and at work think I am smart and funny, but that still leaves me watching Cinemax in the living room at 1:00 am.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 10/30/09 06:09 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
You mean she would give ME compliments? Oh, well, she does that from time to time. Problem is, I don't care. I don't want compliments. I want sex. And I want her to get a job and help pay down the credit card balances.


I'm rewriting the rest of your reply (and no, wasn't about her giving you compliments, btw) as if your W were saying what you said about sex:

Quote:
Sex from him are not "rocks in the river" to me. They are grains of sand in the river. They don't pile up to make a bridge. They get washed down stream.

I understand that is partly about my internal dialogue. When he says he wants sex from me, my internal reaction is "yeah right". Or maybe "so what". I don't feel thankful for the sex. I feel like it is either a lie. Or besides the point. If he really thinks I'm sexy, desirable, acting out his love by making love to me, then he should show his appreciation by telling me, talking to me, giving me the feeling we are allies instead of enemies...and because of this, I see sex with Hold like sleeping with the enemy. If he doesn't want to share his thoughts and opinions with me, honestly, I don't care whether he thinks I am sexy, desirable.

After all, plenty of people I've run into in my weight loss group, at the gym and the store think I'm sexy, look terrific...others do want to jump my bones, too--but that still leaves me feeling used and an object to Hold...since that is what I'm used to telling myself in my internal dialogue.


LA
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/01/09 12:57 AM
Wow, LA, that "flip" of Hold's comments makes a lot of sense... at least to me...
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/02/09 12:37 AM
Hold...question for you...have you figured out how much it might cost you if your wife DID work? Just wondering. I'm speaking in terms of actual cost. I'm not saying she shouldn't, but it was often a topic of conversation when I was working at a place with a lot of young women, many quitting after they had their first child.

For instance:

1) Would it possibly put you in a different tax bracket?
2) Would she need to keep her wardrobe updated?
3) Would she be brown bagging it or not?
4) Gas and car maintenance?
5) Childcare?
6) Would she be expected to take time off work if one of the children got sick, or would you be willing to share that duty? What would you do with your children during the summer?
7) Would it end up where you did all of the housework versus what you're doing now?
8) After all of that is subtracted from her paycheck, would what is left be worth not being home with the kids?

Just some things to consider. Like I said, I realize she has a lot that she needs to do to redeem herself, but wondering if you've thought it through completely.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/02/09 03:04 PM
LA:

I can easily see how this might be Mrs. Hold's internal dialogue.

That is why we are stuck. The implication of your rewrite is that I "should show his appreciation by telling me, talking to me, giving me the feeling we are allies instead of enemies". No way I am going to do that. BTDT. Tried to be her ally for 8 years. Got nothing out of it. Felt like a chump. A doormat. A fool. I am not going back there. Even if it means there is no chance of our marriage improving (which is what I think / feel / predict).

We are not allies. Each of us wants what the other cannot or will not give. Neither of us considers the other person's discomfort is sufficient motivation to stop asking for what we want.

This is why I am twisting myself into a pretzel. This is what I continue to search for. A way to convince myself that I do NOT want to have sex with her. Because she feels used and like an object. I am searching for a way to justify to myself that I can stop asking for sex. Stop even wanting to ask for sex. Without feeling like I have abandoned my personal integrity. Without feeling like a chump and a doormat and a fool.

So I convince myself she is an unrecovered victim. And that I should not have sex with her until we can talk about it. Knowing she won't talk about it. HOPING she won't talk about it. Because that gets me to a place where I can do the right thing. Maybe for the wrong reasons (mental game playing with myself rather than out of love and concern for her feelings). But the right thing nonetheless.

If I cannot be her ally. If I cannot be safe. If I do use her and objectify her. Then however I can get myself to a place where I stop asking for sex. Is a good thing. Not good for our marriage - because I will never be happy with our marriage while the lack of sex continues. But good for not using her. Good for not pressuring her. Good for not allowing my objectification of her to drive my behavior.

I am afraid. I do not have the courage to become a man she would be attracted to. That would be the best answer. Talk honestly. Share our feelings. Use her lack of attraction to motivate me to become a better man. I am never going to do that. I am too afraid / pessimistic. I am always going to choose to stay how I am. Weak. Fearful. I am never going to get to the place where we could share our true selves and she would find me sexually attractive. Given that. We cannot aim for a satisfying marriage. We can only aim for the least amount of pain.

Which is why I am still in the same place 12 years after starting MC and 7 years after arriving here. I know what I would have to do to actually resolve our problem. Become a man. And I am not going to do it. Because I fear I can't. And trying and failing would be even more crushing than rationalizing to myself that she should appreciate what I have to offer anyway. Even though deep down I know she shouldn't.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/02/09 03:17 PM
Soolee:

You make good points. I am sure that her working full time would require changes in our lifestyle. Not all of them welcome.

I also know that she did work part time for a year or 2 and she did clear more money than she spent on clothes / gas / lunch. And that our latest round of debt happened when she stopped working and she kept spending despite the lack of income.

So if she worked, it would lead to a positive cash flow after taxes and expenses. Which would take some of the pressure off me financially.

Am I as confident that she would be happier working for a little money than staying home with slightly less money? No. I assume she prefers to stay home. Which is why she is not hitting the pavement looking for a job right now.

Do I care if she is less happy working? No. I understand that is a very un-MB answer. I am supposed to care. I am not supposed to want to gain at her expense. Well, at this point I don't mind if I do. I understand wanting to gain at her expense is not good for our marriage. So what? Our marriage stinks as it is. It is going to stink whether she works or not. So if we are not going to be happily married, she might as well help pay down our debts.

Wow. That is as honest as I have been here at MB in a long while. Lately, I find myself censoring myself because of how my statements would look during our divorce. But really there is no point in posting here if I am not going to be honest.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/02/09 03:37 PM
Would she help pay down the debts, Hold, or would she consider it license or rationale to spend more? What plan would you have in place to insure yourselves that a spending habit isn't perpetuated or worsened by her working? Would whatever allowance she gets now, be then taken from her paycheck? Have you discussed this with her?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/02/09 04:25 PM
I have discussed working and how much of her paycheck she would get to keep and how much should be devoted to family needs. We have discussed what would be a fair split, but partly that depends on how much she earns. She has never stated it explicitly, but I imagine part of what de-motivates her from working is that she cannot spend all the money she earns on new stuff. Well, that and the negative impact on her divorce settlement.

As for steps in place, we are back to her not having any credit cards and living on a cash allowance. She gets a deposit every other week, same day my paychecks arrive. If she started working, I would reduce the automatic transfer to her account by whatever amount we agreed.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 02:35 PM
As you know, Mrs. Hold has lost over 40 pounds this year. She looks great. She goes to the gym almost every day and is in great shape.

Funny, I find it much easier to refrain from sex these days. The pull is much less, even though she is more physically attractive. Don't know if I am getting old. Or if I have trained myself not to want sex with her. But I do not find it difficult to resist whatever urges arise.

I still hold it against her that we don't have much sex. But I don't find it as hard to resist her as it used to be. Wierd.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 04:23 PM
That's because you have lost all your love for her. You stayed married too long, and your lovebank is not depleted, it's ripped to shreds and burned in efigy (sp?).

You waited too long to take action, and now you'll probably never get that love back.

She needs to know that.

The ONLY way I see it is if she once again fears you divorcing her, and gets her rear in gear and works on herself.

But she'll never do that unless you tell her you no longer love her and want to leave. (probably a dozen or so times might sink in to her head)
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 05:00 PM
Originally Posted By: catperson
That's because you have lost all your love for her. You stayed married too long, and your lovebank is not depleted, it's ripped to shreds and burned in efigy (sp?).


Hmm, I think there is a second f.

Well, then I guess I was correct all those years ago when I warned her to be careful about wishing for the day when I would stop wanting her sexually. Somehow, feels like a rather hollow "victory". Seems I would have preferred to be married than to be right.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 05:06 PM
It means nothing if a spouse improves thier looks or health. It means everything what is inside thier heart.

She still does not love you anymore
She is still overspending after all her problems with that
She is still disrespecting you
She is not sorry for spending you into the poorhouse of debt
Nor is she sorry for wanting to spend even more
She will not even think of working or contributing in any way
She demands a HK even though she has "nothing to do" and could clean house.

Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 05:09 PM
It would be hard to live with a woman like that much less have sex with her.

No one could trust her. No one.

Any man's instincts would tell him to protect himself from her and RUN if he knew the true personality of your wife:

These words would come to mind:

Herpes
Lies
Spender
selfish
Needs housekeeper
More money needed
Comfortable with debt
Dislikes sex

You, or anyone else who knew her, would have to be crazy to ever want sex with her again or trust her again with money, getting a job, paying off debt, paying you back the 112K she stole, or your heart.

You got a huge millstone around your neck even though the millstone is about 40 lbs lighter.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 05:17 PM
Bubbles, you know I love you, but please tone down the attacks on Mrs. Hold. Thank you.

Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
No one could live with a woman like that much less have sex with her. No one could trust a liar like Mrs Hold. No one.


You mean no one healthy or sane. I have lived with her for over 18 years. I have had sex with her for 18 years. I trusted her for many years after I found out about the overspending.

You are correct that no one should accept such behavior and expect to be happy. Or to stay sane. Lord knows I haven't been able to. But it is clearly possible to live this way. After all, someone has. MrRollieEyes

Moreover, I don't think it has been a picnic to live with a pessimistic negative non-self-respecting person like me, either.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 05:19 PM
HOLD you did not push her into stealing, lying, or being disrespectful to you.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 06:22 PM
Hold...Do you feel threatened by her weight loss? Do you feel, possibly, less desirable in some way?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 06:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
HOLD you did not push her into stealing, lying, or being disrespectful to you.


True. It is like an affair. I may have created conditions. But she made the choice to do what she did.

Still, I would appreciate you editing out the most strident portions of your message from 12:09 pm. Thanks.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 06:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
Hold...Do you feel threatened by her weight loss? Do you feel, possibly, less desirable in some way?


Threatened? No. I dealt with that with the viagra. At this point, if she cheats, that will just help me end the marriage without being the "bad guy".

Less desirable? No. No way for me to feel less desirable than I already feel. I never had a hot bod. There have been times when I was more fit and times when less fit. I have worn my hair longer and shorter. Grew a beard and then shaved it off. My physical appearance and fitness have never made much difference in how Mrs. Hold treats me.

Neither has her looks or fitness. She treated me just as poorly when we first got married and she had a killer bod as she did when she gained weight after the kids. She treats me the same now that she has lost some of the weight and gotten much fitter.

I had hoped that her getting fit and losing weight might affect how she feels about herself and about sex. But I guess we are too far down the road for it to affect how she feels about me. Then again, I always thought it would affect how I think about her, and it hasn't done that either. I feel just as angry and bitter and resentful as before she lost the weight. Which pretty much explains everything.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 09:34 PM
Okay.

Listen Hold...you've got what - 6 years before your youngest is gone? Can't remember.

How about you just concentrating on being civil, respectful, and a great dad, while doing your best to improve the finances. Cancel the credit cards in both your names. Open a checking in your name only.

Then make your departure when the youngest graduates. Try to think ahead, to what your life will be like when you don't have to be married. And stay upbeat about that pending freedom.

I'm at a loss for what else you can do.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 10:09 PM
Soolee:

That is exactly what I am doing. I have remained civil and respectful to Mrs. Hold. I tell her how great she looks and how proud she should be of her consistent effort and improved fitness. I compliment her on her attention to detail on D12's party. I tell her she is a supportive friend.

I do my best at the Dad part. Yesterday D12 had a meltdown about her party. She went into her room. I followed her. She said "Stay away. You are going to say something smart and funny and then I won't be so mad." And then she giggled.

On Monday I am camping out at Gamestop with S14 so that he can get the new Call of Duty game when it goes on sale at 12:01 am. And I promised to open my own account at Xbox Live so my feeble efforts will not affect his score / rankings / reputation / etc. We talk fairly openly so I think things are going well there also.

I am also trying to get a life. I go to services more often. Attend all the temple board meetings. I went to a meeting Monday night to help plan a costume ball in February. Last Wednesday I had lunch with an old college friend and dinner with an old high school friend. So I am trying not to withdraw into my shell and stay isolated from the rest of the world, even if I am quite isolated from Mrs. Hold.

As for finances, our credit card balances after the party will be as high as they have been in 8 years. But mostly a joint decision reflecting the parties for S14 and D12. Since there are no raises available at my level and I am unlikely to ever qualify for a bonus based on my hours worked, I have asked for a % of the business I bring in. That will be small compared to my salary, but it will help pay off the credit cards faster. We should have them paid off by the time S14 gets to college.

So we can hope to make a "clean break" when D12 leaves home. As clean as can be when there is not enough money for either of us to keep the house. She can take her 401(k). I'll take mine. Worth about the same. Sell the house and split whatever equity, if any, there is. She will get whatever alimony the judge decides she deserves.

And then we move on. I do not look forward to that "freedom". All I ever wanted was to be in love with the mother of my children. But everyone has disappointments in life. If this should be the worst thing that happens to me, I am fortunate. Plenty of people survive divorce.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 10:09 PM
Hold: NED once suggested I work on Plan A-ing the kids since obviously Plan A-ing the spouse wasn't where I wanted to go.

I did that for a while and it really made me feel good. It made the kids feel good. I need to get back to that. Soolee's other advice is great too. I doubt I'll last another (for me) 8 years but applying the advice today, will at least leave me feeling like I'm moving in a forward motion and not in limbo.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 10:13 PM
Quote:
All I ever wanted was to be in love with the mother of my children.


Boy, do I hear you on that one. Between the alcoholism and depression with my husband, I know he is too sick to ever be the guy I want to spend the rest of my life with. And that is not how I envisioned my life turning out.

I have to bring up NED again because she recommended a book to me--it's on the Alanon list of 'conference approved literature'. I just ordered it, in fact. And I can't remember the name of it! ARGH! But it's supposed to be about how to deal with the feelings that fall out of life not turning out as you'd hoped. Hopefully she'll come along soon and supply the title.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 10:17 PM
I know I sound down sometimes, but I am eeyore. I always sound down. I gave up on our marriage in 2005 when we stopped coaching with cerri. I have made 4.5 years since then and I can make 5.5 more. T-minus, what, 2066? With 6328 down? Wow, so I guess I passed the 3/4 mark. Piece of cake.

And who knows, maybe Mrs. Hold will surprise me. Maybe I will even surprise myself?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/04/09 11:44 PM
Call me Pollyanna today, but life could always be worse, right?

In a predicament where I wanted out but couldn't for several years, I would use that time as wisely as I could in all sorts of directions in my life -

Time with the kids, college education possibly, bettering the finances, losing weight, etc. It might help you to figure out the different areas of YOUR life and ask yourself if you're working on all of them, you know...being proactive in all directions.

Perhaps it is time to stop hoping for the marriage to turn around and maybe then your mood will shift in a more realistic direction. You can then start thinking ahead. What do people in jail do while they await freedom? They exercise, learn the system, try to learn a marketable skill or get a college education, own their wrong doings, cherish family visits, try to have some fun. You can do that, surely.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 03:36 PM
Yuppers. Focus on everything else.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 03:59 PM
Sounds like Hold, OH, and Ima are all in the same ocean, treading water.
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 04:16 PM
I think if this is the path you have truly decided to take then make the next years the best they can be. With no expectations from your wife or your marriage. Have the best time you can have with your kids and your wife. If you have no expectations and then you are going to end it then maybe just maybe you guys can have a great time over the next couple years. Lots of laughter and memories. Just maybe you will be surprised.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 08:04 PM
Good suggestion, but sorry, no can do. I can't play with my wife and laugh with my wife and create memories with my wife and not want to have sex with her. Hurts too much. So if we are staying together without sex, we will be staying together without laughter and playfulness. The laughing and playfulness will be separate, or not at all.

No, I am not intending to have an affair. Just intending to somberly slog through this with her. And have the good times with kids and guy friends.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 08:33 PM
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
[quote] it's supposed to be about how to deal with the feelings that fall out of life not turning out as you'd hoped. Hopefully she'll come along soon and supply the title.


I hope so, since that's the area in which I'm struggling right now... (not to t/j- just empathizing).
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 08:58 PM
Daisy, the book came in the mail today!

Opening Our Hearts, Transforming Our Losses.

I got it on Amazon for $.50--NEW! (and I bought Buyers Renters & Freeloaders there too...NEW for $.25!)
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/05/09 09:02 PM
Quote:
I can't play with my wife and laugh with my wife and create memories with my wife and not want to have sex with her. Hurts too much. So if we are staying together without sex, we will be staying together without laughter and playfulness.
Sounds like an awesome thing to put in a card, and give to her.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/13/09 08:31 PM
Yesterday we took pictures (they won't let us take pictures at the synagogue tomorrow since it is Shabbat). In a few pictures the photographer had Mrs. Hold and I hold hands. She seemed to enjoy that very much. I felt wierd.

Huge extravanganza all weekend. Then no "togetherness" events on the horizon. My pulling away will be far more pronounced once there is no longer the need to discuss plans for the Bat Mitzvah. Planning for this event over the past few months has disguised how far apart we are.

If the hand holding is any indication, I don't think Mrs. Hold is going to enjoy the distance. I don't either. But I dislike it less than engaging with her emotionally but not having sex.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/13/09 09:29 PM
Gee, I still wonder why you assume she enjoyed holding hands with you...and didn't ask.

That would be connecting, respectful and decent. I believe that is what you truly want to be and won't hold yourself to acting from in your marriage. Would NOT open you up to more pain...you're already in it...Marge, you're soaking in it, anyway.

Lemme know when you truly want to stop soaking in it. Stop using your W as justification to stay in pain.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/16/09 02:39 PM
Weekend was great. D12 did a great job at the religious part. All the social events came off without a hitch. The DJ Saturday night was fabulous. During the party Saturday, all the kids yelled "I love you D12". She was queen for a day. So glad we could make that happen for her.

Now back to "real life".
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/16/09 02:57 PM
Oh, I'm happy for you Hold. And for your daughter.

There is little that feels so good as seeing your child grow up, affirmed, validated, and prized--and to know that you provided that for her.

Congrats, and good luck in the days/weeks ahead on the home front with W.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/16/09 03:21 PM
Mazel tov, hold! I'm very happy for you and your family. Congratulations to your daughter.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/18/09 06:31 PM
Memo from the silver linings department:

1. Mrs. Hold came down with flu yesterday. Better yesterday than getting the flu the day before D12's big weekend.

2. Since Mrs. Hold and I are so withdrawn, we slept far apart over the weekend despite the emotionally bonding event. If we were not so withdrawn, we probably would have hugged and kissed. Then I would have caught the flu from her.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/18/09 06:56 PM
lol - Oh Hold, you are something else. I hope she feels better.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/18/09 08:27 PM
Hold, you are such an optimist, always looking on the bright side! smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/20/09 06:38 PM
Today Mrs. Hold went to the clinic and was told she has pneumonia. Not surprising given how awful she sounds (which is why I strongly suggested she go to the clinic today). They gave her a prescription. She asked me to pick it up on the way home. I refused. She got very upset, until I explained I wasn't refusing to help her, I was not enthusiastic about her waiting the many hours until I will get home to start taking her medicine. So she is going to drop the prescription off on her way home (she was adamant about not waiting in the pharmacy for the prescription to be filled - my first suggestion), and then pick it up when she picks up D12 from school in an hour. Wow, this may be our first POJA ever!

I have been doing occasional drive by honesty the past few weeks. Every so often I mention something I like sexually. Today, she said the clinic told her to take it easy for a few weeks (no gym). I said then I guess I'll be in the living room for a while longer (I have been there since Monday). We joked about how awful it will be for her to not be bothered by my snoring, bad breath, hairiness, etc. for several weeks. At one point she said "eventually you will have to move back in to our bedroom". I said "you are never getting me back into the bedroom". She asked "are you joking or serious". I said "a little of both". She asked again "are you serious?" I said "yes, partly".

That would be a major change in our relationship. If I stayed in the living room after she recovers from her illness. That would make our emotional estrangement crystal clear to the kids. And set an example I am not happy setting. We shall see what happens when she recovers.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/20/09 07:02 PM
Shabbat Shalom, Hold!
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/20/09 07:09 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Wow, this may be our first POJA ever!


hurray

Wow, the world must be ending and h.e.double.toothpicks must be freezing over! Maybe the Aztecs and Nostradamus are right about 2012! (j/k)

Quote:
I have been doing occasional drive by honesty the past few weeks.


Again, YAY!!!

Quote:
Every so often I mention something I like sexually. Today, she said the clinic told her to take it easy for a few weeks (no gym). I said then I guess I'll be in the living room for a while. We joked about how awful it will be for her to not be bothered by my snoring, bad breath, hairiness, etc. for several weeks. At one point she said "eventually you will have to move back in to our bedroom". I said "you are never getting me back into the bedroom". She asked "are you joking or serious". I said "a little of both". She asked again "are you serious?" I said "yes, partly".

That would be a major change in our relationship. If I stayed in the living room after she recovers from her illness. That would make our emotional estrangement crystal clear to the kids. And set an example I am not happy setting. We shall see what happens when she recovers.


Ah, but wouldn't it make it more obvious to her how serious you are?

Is there a way you can avoid sleeping in the same bed as her without the kids knowing? (Dishonest to the kids, yes, but still...)
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/20/09 07:32 PM
Personally, I think it would be healthier for the kids to realize you ARE setting boundaries for a healthy marriage and abiding by those boundaries, than continuing to lie to them. If you think they don't know you have problems, you're being naive. And by not talking to them about your problems, you're teaching them it is normal.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/20/09 07:46 PM
No way to know what is best for the kids. It is one thing to say "your mother and I are having difficulty but we are committed to working things out." I could have said that honestly 10 years ago or even 5 years ago. It is different to say "I no longer love your mother the way I used to, and I am not sure how much longer we will stay together". That may shatter their world even if you also say "I will always love YOU and that will never change". Sometimes hard for them to believe your love for them will endure when you say your love for their mother has died.

As I have said before, I don't want to get divorced while the kids live home. I don't want to pay child support while living somewhere else. I don't want Mrs. Hold living with some other guy while DD is living with her. I care more about all those things than about telling my kids the truth about their parents' marriage.

Healthy boundaries? Healthy marriage? Not in our house. You need healthy people to have a healthy marriage. Neither I nor Mrs. Hold is healthy. No way for us to set an example of healthy living. We are choosing from alternate dysfunctions.
Posted By: diamondsj Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/20/09 08:52 PM
....
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 06:43 PM
Yesterday Mrs. Hold asked me when I was moving back into the bedroom. I said not until her cough clears up, which the doctor said might be a couple of weeks. Then she is flying to Florida to visit her parents, because her father is scheduled for surgery. So we may sleep apart for what will have been almost a month by the time she gets back home.

She asked for reassurance that I will move back when she recovers. I said something like "I guess we can work something out." She said "be careful before you say something hurtful". Later she asked why I don't want to move back. I said I thought she would appreciate not having to deal with my presence, stinky breath, stinky BO, hairiness, horniness, interrupting her TV shows, etc. She repeated "why don't you want to move back?" I said "it is stressful for me to be in bed with you. I feel uncomfortable when you complain about me." She said something like "I am sorry you focus totally on the negatives. You only feel that way because you have ANTS (automatic negative thoughts) in your head."

I am pleased that we got this out into the open. It is easier to be honest (to a point) now that I am much less invested in the outcome (her reaction). She is often disappointed with the content of my statements. But I do not allow my expectations of her displeasure to control my speech. She may not like what I have to say. That is for her to deal with. Hopefully she won't decide to leave me over it.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 07:32 PM
I believe it's healthy for you to embrace that you can be cruel and mean with intent. It's knowing you have that in you and not acting from it which helps you experience yourself as a whole person, Hold.

And I've seen you be cruel before in your marriage and to yourself. I'm not sure I've seen you justify it as you have above, though, which concerns me. I imagined your response to her thoughtful request would have been higher honesty...

"I'm rejecting you from fear you'll continue to reject me."

Instead, I heard you tell her "I'm going to DJ your response and tell myself I'm not so invested in your reaction."

She's correct that your expectation of her displeasure (which she clearly stated was being WITHOUT you in the bedroom) is one of your ANTS...and that you didn't say, "I love my ANTS", again, leaves me wondering.

How will you know when you've chosen to play games instead of stay true to your code, if you justify? Isn't that what you hated most about her LBs? Her justifying the spending, the rejection of affection, the distancing and discounting she justified doing for so many years?

You can get anything you want out in the open when you act O&H. You know that. You're pleased, I believe, because you zinged and rejected her...and were hurtful...you did her thinking for her. You hate it when she does that to you.

You don't allow your expectations of her displeasure to control your actions? Or just your speech? What does her continued, non-infectious cough have to do with your assumption she doesn't appreciate you beside her in the marital bed?

Now that the party is over...has she been spending over her allowance? Has she been LBing you in other ways?

Would you be more honest in saying you won't move back into the bedroom until she agrees to a SF and FS contract?

She asked for what she wanted...what concerned her...and you said no to her. Later, she asked for intimacy, to know your "why" behind the rejection. Sounds like she wasn't ignoring you, didn't assume you'd be moving back into the bedroom, and she chose to act from love, even though she feared. And feared some more.

She wishes you wouldn't say things she takes as hurtful. And later, she came back and asked, anyway.

You see her as making no efforts, using you, being an unhealthy, unchanging spouse...projection, maybe?

Seems to me, she's in a year of massive changes.

I don't see your honesty. You fear your presence interrupts what she wants...nice way to kick yourself in the groin, Hold and blame her.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 09:25 PM
LA:

Let me start by saying that I am confident my wife loves me. She wishes we could be happily married. She wants to grow old together. She feels sad at the thought that our marriage is and has been unsatisfying for me.

The problem is, for me, that is not enough. If she cannot interact with me sexually in a way that is subjectively satisfying to me, then I am unhappy with our marriage no matter what else she does.

I understand that is my issue. My problem. My burden to work through. But if I have no intention of changing, then I have to deal with the reality that my marriage will continue to be unsatisfying for as long as it lasts.

Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
I believe it's healthy for you to embrace that you can be cruel and mean with intent. It's knowing you have that in you and not acting from it which helps you experience yourself as a whole person, Hold.


I don't experience being a whole person, because I don't refrain from acting on it. When I do, I'll post about it here.

Quote:
I'm not sure I've seen you justify it as you have above, though, which concerns me. I imagined your response to her thoughtful request would have been higher honesty...


No, not more honesty. That might go over the "edge". Hence my statement that I am bring more honest "to a point".

Quote:
She's correct that your expectation of her displeasure (which she clearly stated was being WITHOUT you in the bedroom) is one of your ANTS...and that you didn't say, "I love my ANTS", again, leaves me wondering.


Are you saying that I should embrace my ANTS the way I embrace my resentment? I do love my resentment. But the ANTS? I hate the ANTS. They are just about my least favorite part of myself. I am resigned to never doing anything about my ANTS. That doesn't meant I love them. Seems to me if I loved the ANTS I wouldn't feel so much resentment. If I loved myself, I wouldn't mind if Mrs. Hold rejected me. It is only because I have so much self-loathing - that Mrs. Hold was supposed to cure by accepting me unconditionally (and yes, I see the irony as regards what Mrs. Hold expected from me) - that her rejection bothers me so much.

Quote:
How will you know when you've chosen to play games instead of stay true to your code, if you justify? Isn't that what you hated most about her LBs? Her justifying the spending, the rejection of affection, the distancing and discounting she justified doing for so many years?


But dear LA, I am not staying true to my code. That is why I hate myself so much. I have never been true to my code. Early on I refrained from complaining. Hid my needs. Built up resentment. At myself as much (or more) than at Mrs. Hold. Then I started complaining and being honest. But she continued to reject me. And added other misbehaviors to the mix. Honesty and staying true to my code because too painful / costly (because it would require me to leave her). As long as I prioritize staying over all else, I can NOT be true to my code.

Or to put it differently, my code does not prioritize honesty as much as it prioritizes staying married to Mrs. Hold while the kids live with us. So if I have to jettison honesty to increase the odds (as I perceive them) that Mrs. Hold will choose to remain married to me, so be it. I don't like it. I don't like myself for doing it. But I will continue to do it nonetheless. Hence my discontent. I see my higher goal (stay married for 5.5 years) at odds with lesser goals (honesty, intimacy).

Quote:
You don't allow your expectations of her displeasure to control your actions? Or just your speech? What does her continued, non-infectious cough have to do with your assumption she doesn't appreciate you beside her in the marital bed?


I know she wants me there. I just wanted to hear her say it. She knows what I wanted. Which is why she did NOT say it.

The difference is WHY she wants me in her bed. Which she also refused to say. I suspect she wants me there because that is an outward sign I am still under her thumb. She says she wants to interact, but she doesn't. She doesn't want be to speak while we are in bed (she constantly tells me to be quiet if I comment on the show she is watching, even if my comment is positive or expresses interest in her viewpoint). She certainly doesn't want to me touch her while we are in bed. She doesn't want me too near her. She just wants me safely lying there about 1.5 feet away. Her pet.

Quote:
Would you be more honest in saying you won't move back into the bedroom until she agrees to a SF and FS contract?


But I will move back in without any agreement on her part. We all know that. I do not have the guts to trigger a confrontation. That is why, as you said, this is all game playing. I will not live up to my code. Living up to my code would require me to stay away until she agreed to a contract and performed it. Which she will not do. Which is why my living to my code requires me to leave. Which I will not do. So this is all a game.

Quote:
You see her as making no efforts, using you, being an unhealthy, unchanging spouse...projection, maybe?


Yes, of course it is projection. I have given up trying. Have given up hope for improvement. Am making no efforts. Have given up on either of us changing. I am determined to remain unhealthy.

Quote:
I don't see your honesty. You fear your presence interrupts what she wants...nice way to kick yourself in the groin, Hold and blame her.


I don't really believe she dislikes my being in bed with her. My presence does not interfere with what she wants. My presence IS what she wants. On the other hand, I massively DJ her as to WHY she wants me there. That does not mean I am wrong. Just means I should ask her to confirm it.

Of course, she would never confirm it. That would require honesty. Which neither of us is willing to contribute to our marriage.
Posted By: diamondsj Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 10:32 PM
Then what are you still doing posting here on MB about your "going nowhere marriage"? You aren't marriage building. You are stalling, lying, DJing, and basically separating yourself from your wife. Whether she chooses to MB or not does NOT affect how you make changes in yourself. You are choosing to not change -- and it has nothing to do with remaining with your children. Call a spade a spade.

This continued "update" you give is given for what purpose hold? Any reason at all?

As you've stated, you've no intention of making the journey to a healthy life/marriage. So why continue to post about the exchanges between you and Mrs. Hold? It serves no purpose other than to continue to get people to engage you and then you can tell them how you think this about Mrs. Hold and how you think that about Mrs. Hold. But when called to task, you project -- you deflect. No matter the great insight someone gives you about what YOU are doing in your exchanges with your wife, you dismiss them as "not gonna happen cuz she did...and I won't...". You do this with your wife and you do this with your children.

The two are not mutually exclusive even while you want to believe it. Your children see and hear more than you know. They also are smart and intuitive. Give them credit for knowing more than what little you have told them. Of the parties involved, I feel most for your children because of the lies being "told" to them. What about that are you going to change? They didn't choose to be put in this position, but they sure deserve a parent willing to help them understand it.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 10:58 PM
I am here because this is part of how I medicate my angst from continually making stupid choices.

This is going to impact my kids no matter what. No way to insulate them. I am aiming for "by the time you guys divorced, we wished you had done it sooner". From what I have read of the studies of divorce and children, that tends to produce marginally better outcomes than the kids who wished their parents had stayed together. Still, it is a crap shoot no matter what you do. No way to predict how divorce will impact any particular child.

Look, in a tiny corner of me I still hold out hope that Mrs. Hold and I will reconnect. I am not willing to make any effort in that direction today. But maybe tomorrow I will be. Every year my sex drive declines. Maybe at some point it will fall so low that I stop wanting sex. Maybe then I will be able to let go of the resentment. Who knows.

If I were forced to make a move today, it would be to Plan D. Hence I refuse to move off the fence. Maybe some day I will choose to Plan A again. Maybe some day when the kids are closer to leaving I will be willing to have an honest talk with Mrs. Hold about what it would take for me to re-engage. For now, I do not feel safe entering into negotiations because I am unwilling to walk away. I need to be wiling to leave. Otherwise my negotiating position is fatally compromised.

Hopefully, she will put up with my withdrawal until then. If not, I will probably regret not doing more at this time. Then again, I have so many regrets I may not even notice another.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 11:31 PM
Hold...have you ever considered seeing a lawyer about your chances of primary custody or just to get your ducks in a row and see what would be in store for you if you did divorce her?

Have you ever considered that perhaps your wife has more sense than to get mixed up with someone who would hurt your children? How about you? Any guarantees that in the event of a divorce you would not get mixed up with someone worse than your wife? Or someone who is a detriment to your children in some way?

Life holds no guarantees.

How would you feel if everyone here stopped posting to you? Would you get really really bored and finally do something? Just wondering?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 11:33 PM
Hold...I'm just wondering because if what we say to you makes no difference in your situation, maybe we are wasting YOUR time.

Maybe we're enabling your stagnation.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/23/09 11:48 PM
Quote:
The difference is WHY she wants me in her bed. Which she also refused to say. I suspect she wants me there because that is an outward sign I am still under her thumb. She says she wants to interact, but she doesn't. She doesn't want be to speak while we are in bed (she constantly tells me to be quiet if I comment on the show she is watching, even if my comment is positive or expresses interest in her viewpoint). She certainly doesn't want to me touch her while we are in bed. She doesn't want me too near her. She just wants me safely lying there about 1.5 feet away. Her pet.
I dare you to cut and paste this in an email to her.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 12:19 AM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
Hold...have you ever considered seeing a lawyer about your chances of primary custody or just to get your ducks in a row and see what would be in store for you if you did divorce her?


Have talked to lawyers. My chances of getting primary physical custody are zero if Mrs. Hold also wants it. Financially, I have a pretty good idea where we end up given our relatively minimal assets. Neither of us can live as we desire on a portion of what I make. Either we move outside the school district or big downward mobility or both. Most likely both.

Quote:
Have you ever considered that perhaps your wife has more sense than to get mixed up with someone who would hurt your children? How about you? Any guarantees that in the event of a divorce you would not get mixed up with someone worse than your wife? Or someone who is a detriment to your children in some way?


I know it could be worse. I know in my present condition I would only be attractive to predators. That is why I stay married. To keep the predators away from my kids.

I am not saying my wife would AIM for someone who would harm our kids. She would not. It is precisely because I fear that other imperatives would push her to strongly desire a relationship with someone who can offer FS that I fear she might be an unsuspecting victim. I am confident Mrs. Hold would dump any guy who made moves on our daughter (if she didn't rend him limb from limb). Not so sure she would detect it before it happened.

As I say, in our current states we are both vulnerable and thus most attractive to predators. Hence prudence dictates we stick together.

Quote:
How would you feel if everyone here stopped posting to you? Would you get really really bored and finally do something? Just wondering?


I would miss it. But not be motivated to take action. I took a break here for a few months. Made no difference in my activity or motivation level. I would just find another way to distract myself. At least this place keeps throwing good advice in my face. Perhaps some day I will be receptive to it.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 12:26 AM
Cat:

I won't cut and paste. But I might have some more "drive by" honesty. Who knows, I might even slip up and have an entire conversation.

I should mention that D12 was in the room when Mrs. Hold asked me when I was moving back in. So I had to be brief in my responses. Especially since I felt somewhat ambushed in that setting.

Perhaps in a few weeks when Mrs. Hold is feeling better, and is able to stay up late enough for us to have a conversation without the kids overhearing, we can discuss this in more detail.

LAs point is the biggest one. I need to live in accordance with my "code". The fact that I feel so much anxiety over honesty shows that I am not doing so. Even as I say that staying married to Mrs. Hold is my highest priority. Obviously, I am lying to myself about that.

I know you are all praying that I find the motivation to stop doing that. Well, at least those of you who are not praying that I just "shut up already".
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 04:09 AM
I am not praying that you just 'shut up already', Hold. I would just like to see you right with yourself. If that means staying married until your kids are grown, great, but your unhappiness seems pretty clear and is hard to just ignore.

I want to be O&H with you, though, Hold. I sense that even when your kids are grown, you will not divorce your wife. I sense that you two will be so ingrained with each other that change will either seem too problematic and complicated or require too much energy.

I hope when you are deciding what to do with the rest of your life, that you will think about that at some point because I fear that years will turn into decades, and all this time when you could have been strengthening your marriage and willfully chose not to, will be wasted because although the marriage will still be intact, it will not be any happier. We can only expect from our marriages what we put into them. Things just don't improve spontaneously; they don't. They can't. It takes conscious effort.

On your deathbed, will you be saying "I wish I'd spent more time being unhappy"?

Posted By: nams Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 12:14 PM
Maybe some day, Hold, it will not be enough to come here and "medicate your angst" and actual changes will need to take place for you make a move in your favor. I don't think you hope for that but we can. I mean this in the nicest possible way.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 02:58 PM
So last night I asked Mrs. Hold why she wants me to come back to the bed. She said "I like having you here." I asked her what she likes about it, since she constantly complains about my odor, body heat, breathing, talking, trying to touch her, etc. She said "we are married, you are supposed to be here." I said "there are no shoulds, and anyway I don't think you want to get into a discussion about what each of us is supposed to do because we are married."

I asked her whether she wanted me in her bed for appearances, so the children would not see our problems overtly. She said "that is part of it, but not the whole thing. I like having you here." I said "yes, I hear that you say you like me being here, but you don't seem to like me interacting with you. You don't want me right next to you. It appears to me that you want me a few feet away from you, but in the bed. As a matter of security. Kinda like D12 wants her blanket. A security device. A pet. Not a person." She nodded but said nothing.

So I asked her "what is in it for ME to come back to our bed. As you know, our marital bed has been a very stressful place for me. It triggers my anxiety." She said "sometimes it is stressful for me too." I said "yes, but you want me here anyway. I am not sure I want that. What is in it for me to be here?"

She said "I will be here." I said "yes, you and I will be together in bed, but that is what YOU want. What is in it for ME?" She said "you get to be next to your beautiful wife." I said "yes, you are beautiful. But you are my beautiful wife even when I am in the living room. That doesn't change as a result of where I am sitting."

We resolved to discuss this further on Thursday. Should be interesting, as she has so far offered me NOTHING to get me back into bed with her. I'll probably go back anyway. But it is interesting to discuss this with her calmly and watch her reaction. She appears to be VERY uncomfortable having this conversation. I care too, but as I am resigned to getting nothing from her, I am much less invested in her reaction than I otherwise would be.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 03:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
I want to be O&H with you, though, Hold. I sense that even when your kids are grown, you will not divorce your wife. I sense that you two will be so ingrained with each other that change will either seem too problematic and complicated or require too much energy.


Yes, I anticipate that as well. Very possible given my fear of change.

Quote:
all this time when you could have been strengthening your marriage and willfully chose not to, will be wasted because although the marriage will still be intact, it will not be any happier.


Here is where we disagree. I do not think I could be strengthening my marriage. What I am missing out on is NOT working things out with Mrs. Hold. That will never happen. What I am missing out on is improving myself and my life so that I am better able to attract and relate to a healthy partner in the future. If I don't do the internal work, then I will only be attractive to predators and other wounded persons. Not to anyone healthy.

Quote:
On your deathbed, will you be saying "I wish I'd spent more time being unhappy"?


No, on my deathbed I expect to have many regrets. But that won't be one of them. I think I have become quite adept at racking up subjectively unhappy time, and I expect to have continued success in that area.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 03:26 PM
Thank you for your response, Hold.

I see myself in you, Hold. The questions I ask you have been asked of me...and what I've asked of myself.

I learned I had life-long themes, those poles holding up the spiral staircase I am climbing...the patterns I kept running into in myself, giving me the same experience...

One was debt/gratitude...and another was abandonment/rejection. Would you consider you've carefully, through your meticulous cultivation of resentment, formed a climate of rejection for your marriage?

You're right about the ANTS...they are the entities that plow your fields of resentment, and they are excellent at their job.

Least they were for me...tireless, underpaid and seemingly rejected at every turn. They plowed on, though. They don't stop. Rejection feeds them more...because they think for you...they assume you don't mean it...you really want them to keep going to produce what you've trained your brain to hand you at every turn...more rejection, deeper resentment, an abiding entitlement.

I believe Mrs Hold is your true partner, your real mate in this life...you feed in her for her lines...very similar to your own. And through her, you truly can transcend your patterns...come to peace, joy and happiness. She's your ultimate path.

Believe it or not.

smile

And you are hers.

Living in a climate of rejection is rough...and secure. You can experience rejection moment by moment...and be right, smart, consistent. And miserable. And cause misery.

What woke me up was realizing I was causing misery, crushing pain into other people...which I didn't realize because I was too busy counting the ways I was being rejected (or could be, or had been) to see the pain I was dealing.

I don't know what your wake up point is...only you do. I do know the antidote for ANTS...when you crave freedom from them more than assured resentment through rejection.

Forgiveness and acceptance. Forgiving Mrs Hold for her prior behavior...so huge I think you might panic at the thought of it...accepting she really did hurt you mightily, repeatedly...and you really don't know why she did. No assumptions as to why--you don't know. Until she says why, you really don't know.

Forgiving yourself for doing great harm to her, as well...forgiving yourself for doing great harm, daily, to yourself...she couldn't earn your hurtful words and actions, nor could you, to yourself. You haven't been a child for a very long time, needing pain to learn what not to do...punishment isn't a growth choice, hasn't been. Has no redemption or reality...forgiveness and acceptance do.

And I believe you know these two potent antidotes. I wish you would choose to know them more intimately...within you...so you will see them in your wife, as well.

You didn't hear her ask you back, tell you she wanted you back in your shared bed...she didn't use the words you wanted, when you wanted them, stated in the way you would hear them. Please consider after a lifetime of rejecting others and feeling rejected, you won't hear...and she may be saying it, anyway. You smack her vulnerability down because you've practiced smacking down your own...you disguise a lot of cutting words in humor and mockery, and you feel mocked and rejected.

Reasonable to me...how else could you keep the resentment climate the exact right temperature otherwise? How else could you maintain the perspective that she was rejecting you, that you were only worthy of rejection?

We have weird comfort zones...and as you said, the lies we tell ourselves are the padding, the boundaries of that zone. Self-rejection will give you the life experience of rejection...and it isn't real.

Even though it really, really hurts.

I believe you're in this marriage because Mrs Hold really is the one you want to lead you out of this pattern; if she's the cause, she's the cure...the control of it. We make it into a hidden mandate...which transforms our best chance for growth into our best bet for continued rejection.

She can bring up you coming back to the bedroom in front of DD...and you can say, "I'll answer you privately." Your half is equal to hers...you have to keep judging and blaming to foment the rejection, maintain the diminishing returns of righteousness, besting her...

Or you can begin this minute and live differently. God didn't create you to design and maintain a life of rejection...you know he didn't...for by rejecting others, you reject him, too. Each time you smack down your wife's vulnerability, you do your own...and his presence in you.

And I know you know this. Is it His overwhelming forgiveness and acceptance, even his celebration of you, His fabulous creation, that you fear most?

LA
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 03:38 PM
Hold - hoping I didn't offend you.

We had a death in our family last night. Not something any of us expected. A freak accident leads to a few broken bones...you expect to heal from something like that...then you develop internal bleeding and pneumonia, and your time is up...

Mortality and lost chances seem to be weighing heavy on my mind this morning. We take a lot for granted - that there will even be another chance, another tomorrow.

Every Sunday, when I kneel in church...I thank God for all my 'second' chances. I pray for guidance. I thank God for each new day, so that I can try again to be a better wife, a better mother, daughter, etc.

Some morning...I won't wake up - and I'm just hoping all my 'second' chances will amount to some measure of success - that I won't look down and shake my head at myself.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 04:17 PM
Hold,
sorry to butt in. Someone told me you and I were in a similar situation, staying in a miserable marriage to keep the spouse from remarrying worse. Here is a quote from an email I sent my FWH yesterday:
"We can try to continue to keep this marriage together and I can look the other way at all of your indiscretions, but once it starts to spill over into my day-to-day, I’m not going to be able to react calmly. Given the huge amount of sh-t-sandwich each of us has to swallow, any perceived effort to hand more of the sandwich to me will not be met well.
We can stay together to keep you from remarrying a teenager and to keep me from shacking up with some drunk (since that’s the way we’ll always view each other) but we both have to stay out of each other’s way."
When I read your posts, I get the feeling we are on similar paths. Good luck to you, as I cannot find a path out. Just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about your situation.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 04:44 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
And through her, you truly can transcend your patterns...come to peace, joy and happiness. She's your ultimate path.
Believe it or not.


I do believe it. As to both of us. We could heal each other.

I simply no longer believe that success is possible. Personal. Professional. Marital. I don't bother trying, so failure is assured. But it is a comforting failure. A chosen failure.

I might some day choose to forgive Mrs. Hold. I will never forgive myself for quitting. At life.

Quote:
You didn't hear her ask you back, tell you she wanted you back in your shared bed...


Of course she wants me back. I understand she wants us to be together. ON HER TERMS. Just as I want us back together on my terms. We are the same. As you say, well matched.

Neither of us is willing to POJA. That is why I was so shocked last week when we did POJA on her getting her medicine. We simply do not negotiate. One or the other of us capitulates. I am sure I will capitulate on returning to the bed. And I will resent her. And I will resent me. And stay in my comfort zone.

Quote:
I believe you're in this marriage because Mrs Hold really is the one you want to lead you out of this pattern; if she's the cause, she's the cure...the control of it. We make it into a hidden mandate...which transforms our best chance for growth into our best bet for continued rejection.


I agree she could be the cure. As I could be hers. However, neither of us will ever choose to be so gracious to the other. Hence the need for us to split.

I understand that her rejecting me comes from pain and fear. And that her life experience makes it difficult for her to leave herself vulnerable to me. And that I should reach beyond the rejection to the part of her that loves me.

It is too late for that. Perhaps if she had been honest sooner I would have been of a mind to try. At this point I am perfectly willing for the scared lonely abused traumatized little girl to continue cowering in the corner. It is what I have been doing my whole life. I am not motivated to help her climb the steps out of the dank cold dark basement. Rather, I am pleased to have some company down here.

I don't think anyone has to worry that I will look down from Heaven with regret or that God is celebrating anything about me. I may have regrets, but I will be looking up from below.
Posted By: diamondsj Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 04:50 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I am here because this is part of how I medicate my angst from continually making stupid choices.

This is going to impact my kids no matter what. No way to insulate them. No one said anything about insulting them and you are deflecting from the real problem -- how to tell them the truth AND teach them what they see/hear is not healthy. You are one smart person Hold...law school is not easy and it takes a bright and quick person to make it through AND make a living at it...so I know exactly what you are doing when you start making statements like this one. I am aiming for "by the time you guys divorced, we wished you had done it sooner" Wow, that's setting the bar a little low don't you think? . From what I have read of the studies of divorce and children, that tends to produce marginally better outcomes than the kids who wished their parents had stayed together. From the studies you read, what was the median age of the children involved? As you know, there are many studies and to rely on a study that encompasses children of younger/tender years vs. those that are older would be meaningless to support your argument of withholding the truth from them. Still, it is a crap shoot no matter what you do. No it's not and you know it isn't. No way to predict how divorce will impact any particular child. This is what I call talking out of both sides of your mouth. You want to rely on this so you don't have to be truthful with your children. Yet all the while you keep insinuating and stating that you know how staying together will be most beneficial to your kids. Have you asked them? Have you been truthful with them? Have you explained anything to them?

Look, in a tiny corner of me I still hold out hope that Mrs. Hold and I will reconnect. Finally a little truth comes through as to why you still post here. Nothing bad happened by stating that truth did it Hold? Did your world fall apart? Did the internet crash? I am not willing to make any effort in that direction today. More of the "give me what I want, but don't expect me to do a darn thing about it -- it's your turn to make me into a better person. But maybe tomorrow I will be. There is no tomorrow...at least in my world, God didn't call me up and tell me I was guaranteed a tomorrow...did He for you? Every year my sex drive declines. Welcome to reality. Maybe at some point it will fall so low that I stop wanting sex. Your resentment isn't solely about sex, but that's all you want to focus on and hold against Mrs. Hold because you know it's the one thing that she has the toughest time providing. There's plenty more that could be worked on even without getting sex. Plenty more that should be worked on. Maybe then I will be able to let go of the resentment. No, you hold onto it like a security blanket. Getting sex will not "make" you let go of resentment. Who knows. You do.

If I were forced to make a move today, it would be to Plan D. Hence I refuse to move off the fence. Maybe some day I will choose to Plan A again. Maybe some day when the kids are closer to leaving I will be willing to have an honest talk with Mrs. Hold about what it would take for me to re-engage. For now, I do not feel safe entering into negotiations because I am unwilling to walk away. Very narrow minded way of thinking isn't it? There's lots of other things to do besides walk away and you know many of them -- yet you continue to choose only Plan D as your option because it allows you to stay in your coccoon and not do something to improve yourself and your marriage. I need to be wiling to leave. Why? Otherwise my negotiating position is fatally compromised. No it isn't. You may be a tax attorney, but you know there's more than one solution to every negotiation. And just because you may not get everything you want in a negotiation, it in no way fatally compromises your position.

Hopefully, she will put up with my withdrawal until then. Put your fate into her hands again huh? If not, I will probably regret not doing more at this time. Then again, I have so many regrets I may not even notice another. Time to stop the self-pity, don't you think?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 05:11 PM
Diamonds:

I am not staying for the kids. I am staying for me. So that I get to be with them.

I know myself. If we divorce, I will not be as available. I am too weak to continually pick them up from activities and drop them off at their mother's home. Especially if she is not alone there.

To the extent I am lying about the impact on them, it is to justify that it is OK for me to stay married to their mother. Because that is what I want FOR ME. I am not saying it is clearly better for them. I am justifying doing what I want. With the idea that it is not more likely to harm them than is divorce. Which, given the evidence in both directions, is probably true.

Especially given their mother's historic irresponsible behavior. And mine. I predict our divorce would be a train wreck if we do it while the kids are still home. Yes, mature adults should be able to achieve a different result. But we are dealing with me and Mrs. Hold here. I don't think I am wrong to predict that an amicable divorce is unlikely.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 05:41 PM
Quote:
I don't think anyone has to worry that I will look down from Heaven with regret or that God is celebrating anything about me. I may have regrets, but I will be looking up from below.


Hold! You do not get to say this!

You are not God, and you do not get to decide who gets to go to Heaven--even when thinking of yourself.

For goodness' sake! Isn't it enough that you've doomed yourself to be miserable in this life. Do you have to live with the belief that you are going to be miserable in the next?

I'm glad God isn't as harsh and judgmental towards us as we are towards ourselves...

(((Hold)))
Posted By: mnguy1200 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 06:36 PM
Hold,

I want to tell you something I did that helped me. Having issues with my marriage, unable to sleep and had the same feelings you did with SF from my wife. Finally one night, after not being able to sleep, prayed.

"God, I dont know what you want me to do. But I need peice and comfort in mylife and I'm tired of trying to control this out come on my own, I am giving my slef to you, I am yours, do with me what you will."

After this prayer I was able to sleep, I was able to have this weight lifted off me. I was able to look at my wife with a difference tone then I had before. I would never have thought this would have worked, but it did.

Now, are we have Sex like rabbits? No, but we are a lot better, she is more open to my advances and treating me kinder.

I just wished I would have asked for help much earlier. Give it a try, you have nothing to lose.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 10:51 PM
So wierd to be loved but not feel loved. I could give Mrs. Hold the "ILYBNILWY" speech. Even though I am not having an affair. Then I realized. I am in love with my resentment. In love with my bitterness and frustration. Hence my heart is walled off from Mrs. Hold. Maybe that is why I keep coming here to declare my love of resentment. Maybe I am "exposing" myself.

I went to morning prayers today. I try to go one weekday morning every week. I have become a "regular" and get smiles and warm words from the others. Thanks to mnguy, I now have something new to pray for during the silent prayer.
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/24/09 11:25 PM
Hold you could tell her why argue over SF for 10 minutes,a half hour to a hour, over something thats only going to take a few minutes!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 01:02 AM
We no longer argue over sex. No point. Spent 8 years arguing and produced no results other than to drive myself even more crazy. So I stopped fighting. And settled into seething resentment.

This is the dilemma and the corner I have painted myself into. I am not looking for sex. Yes, I am going to resent her for the lack of sex. But I am not going to ask for sex. Or negotiate for more sex.

I don't feel it is appropriate for me to ask her for sex. She is a rape victim. I am compounding her trauma by pressuring her for sex. She has to want it. For herself. She has to want to deal with the issues. Overcome her demons. Otherwise I am just as much of a jerk as the guys who raped her.

Yet how can I ask her to deal with her issued when I refuse to deal with mine? So we both just sit in our corners. Making no progress. Wondering why we are both so miserable. Well, I don't wonder. I know why I am miserable. What I don't know is what it will take for me to do something about it.
Posted By: mamma23 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 04:24 AM
Hi again Hold (my previous username is sexyat35).

You are a good lawyer Hold - and you're good at crafting arguments on this forum too. Anything anyone throws at you, you will counter. Heck sometimes, we're confused about what you need anymore!. Problem though is that your marriage is not a court of law. You don't need to win arguments there or here on these boards Hold.

And yes, we all know you love to hold on to your resentment, hold grudges, dish out passive-aggressive blows to your wife because you get a pay-off from seeing her squirm, suffer,etc. We get it. You admit to everyone that you are cruel and that you like to be cruel, both to yourself and Mrs. Hold.

So your wife still refuses SF with you? Good. IMPO, as long as you think you're entitled to it, I hope she continues to refuse. You need to change. Period.

I know I sound terrible, but the quicker your marriage goes down hill, the closer to happiness you will both be. Why do you wish for your marriage to rot - with both of you in it. How cruel Hold.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 12:16 PM
Hold...I don't know much about divorce, but you certainly would, being a lawyer and all...would your wife be able to divorce you without your consent and force you out of the house?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 02:54 PM
Originally Posted By: mamma23
So your wife still refuses SF with you? Good. IMPO, as long as you think you're entitled to it, I hope she continues to refuse.


Exactly. Couldn't agree more. Given how I feel about her, it would be wrong for her to have sex with me.

And yes, I see the irony. What she needed from me earlier in our marriage was to remove the pressure for sex. Out of love. To give her time and space to heal. And to show her that I loved her regardless.

Now I have reached the place I needed to reach. No asking for sex. No expecting sex. Only one problem. I am not offering that out of love. I am offering it out of anger and frustration and resentment. And while I have removed the overt pressure for sex, I have also removed the caring and the concern and the love.

We might have thought that I have accomplished the hard part. Removing my expectations of sex. And that, having gotten here, it would be easy to offer the love part. But it isn't. I feel like a wimpy doormat if I offer her loving gestures. Such a shame. So close. And yet so far.

Quote:
You need to change. Period.


Agreed.

Quote:
I know I sound terrible, but the quicker your marriage goes down hill, the closer to happiness you will both be. Why do you wish for your marriage to rot - with both of you in it. How cruel Hold.


Does not sound terrible. Sounds accurate. I was planning on posting something along these lines today. Was thinking on the drive to work how stupid I am being. Thank you for beating me to it.

Mrs. Hold looked at me very lovingly as I walked out the door to work today. I realized what a tragedy it is that I cannot get over my resentment and bitterness. Then again, the loving looks partly come from newfound respect that I can "resist her charms". So far I have not found a way to resist her OTHER than through resentment and bitterness.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 02:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
Hold...I don't know much about divorce, but you certainly would, being a lawyer and all...would your wife be able to divorce you without your consent and force you out of the house?


Yes, quite possibly. She can definitely divorce me unilaterally. Takes more time. But available. Getting me out of the house would also take time. But also doable. Especially if she alleges domestic violence. Gets a TRO. Forces me out of the house. Even if the TRO is later lifted, hard to get back in.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 03:00 PM
Confusing - she can divorce you without your signature? And she can force you out of the house if your name is on the deed?
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 03:07 PM
Hold, sometimes I think we're on opposite sides of the same coin. Not about the SF, but about the anger and resentment.

I'm holding on to so much of it, that even if H capitulated, agreed to talk to Steve and tried to make a go of improving our marriage... well, I'm not sure I'm even interested anymore.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 03:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
Confusing - she can divorce you without your signature? And she can force you out of the house if your name is on the deed?


She can file for divorce by herself. That gets the process started. Eventually they will serve me with the papers. And eventually the judge will grant her divorce even if I object. That is the whole point of "no-fault" divorce. She doesn't have to prove I did anything wrong to divorce me. She just has to keep saying "I no longer want to be married to him" often enough over a long enough period of time, and the judge will grant her request even if I prefer to remain married to her.

As for the house, doesn't matter whose name is on the deed. It is marital property. It will be divided up as part of the divorce. If the judge gives her the house, she gets the house.

Now, that is oversimplified and there can be details that would make it more or less likely depending on the facts of a particular case. But in this case. Where we bought the house while we were married. With down payment funds that came from a joint account. And have been paying the mortgage with money I earned during the marriage. Then the house will almost certainly be seen as marital property subject to equitable distribution. Even though only my name is on the deed (done not to prevent her from owning a share of the home, but to hide her from the guy who was stalking her at the time we bought this house). And even though the down payment on our first house came entirely from money I earned before we got married, and that was more money than we put down on this house.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 03:12 PM
Thanks for explaining.
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 07:41 PM
Hold you are expecting sex from your wife thats why you are doing the drive by with your conversations with your wife,thats why you post here time again and again about sex. If you was not expecting or wanting sex it would not be a issue for you. Its kind of like someone living on welfare that wants to live in a fancy house but does not want to do anything to achieve it. A little less talk and alot more action!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 08:03 PM
No, I am not expecting sex. I am expecting to stay married to her without sex. Which I hate. So I post here to deal with the reality that I am choosing to remain in an unpleasant situation. I strive to achieve acceptance, which eludes me. I am making the choice to stay despite the drawbacks. But I am not choosing to make the best of the situation.

I post here because I am not pursuing happiness. I am not working toward a positive goal. I am working to maintain a bad situation out of fear the alternative might be worse. I am staying to maintain contact with my children because I fear I would choose to withdraw from them upon divorce. I am staying to prevent particular kinds of harmful experiences to my daughter (while recognizing that the example we are setting is a poor one). And I am staying to prevent the outcome that divorce would result in Mrs. Hold being happy and me being miserable.

That is my essential dilemma. I am not trying to achieve happiness for myself. Hence no actions will avail me. Some here may think that seeking happiness would motivate me to reconnect with Mrs. Hold. But instead it would motivate me to leave her. Of course, that is based on my view of the situation and the odds of various outcomes. Which, given what a messed-up nut-case I am, is probably quite warped.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! I hope you all choose actions that pursue happiness for yourselves, your families, and your communities.
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 08:18 PM
OK, but I dont think that many of the posters see it that way.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 08:40 PM
If the majority of posters here get the impression that I am actively pursuing happiness in my life, then I am doing a very poor job of expressing myself. Or maybe it is just that my fear of saying the truth clearly and concisely (because it would be twisted and used against me during a divorce proceeding) obscures my underlying message.
Posted By: booka Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 09:08 PM
It is very, very hard, in a limited medium like this, to truly be able to walk in another's shoes. It's hard to completely understand the dynamic and context of that other person's life. We have our own filters and perceptions colored by our own experience. That being said, I understand completely Hold's dynamic because I've been there at one time in my life.

I'll repeat that the past is dead. We can extract value from the past in what was good and what we would want to avoid in the future. Other than that, no debts from the past can ever be repaid in full. Therefore, harboring resentments is self-defeating and dysfunctional and serves no purpose to deliver you from yourself or the unhappy world you've constructed for yourself. One thing I learned from my divorce that the very reason we are here right now is solely by our personal choice and often we choose unwisely. Your fate is your personal choice. You picked a non-complimentary partner, again your choice, and unwise it appears. You can continue to choose unwisely for yourself and this is in turn reflected in your wife choices and the choices made by your children. You'll leave them a legacy of unwise choices as their life-template and they will in turn execute unwise choices based upon the paradigm you've established for them in the practice of your life. Your all in a negative-feedback loop and until you embrace the thought that repeating the same processes and expecting a different result is highly non-production, the negative-feedback loop will remain in place.

I understand you all to well and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it will take a total disruption of your life to effect any possibility of positive change. Your fear will make you risk-adverse to that level of change. It was enormously painful for me to undergo that process but it saved my life. It boils down to whether or not you want to live your life. Again, your personal choice.

Free will cuts both ways.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 09:10 PM
It's a matter of personal choice (shrugging). You aren't the only one posting here, I'm sure, who is choosing to stay in an arrangement that feels so unhealthy.

Frankly, I would pursue other interests while you wait this out, and I think I mentioned these before: Getting the credit cards paid off, staying in good physical health, pursuing your career, and being a model dad. Pretend she's your housekeeper or your sister. (shrugging again)

The thing I wonder, though, is whether your mindset will change to that of leaving after your children are raised and off to college. I suspect you'll stay then...because you won't want to share with or expose your grandchildren to another man either.

I'd feel sorry for you, Hold, but you're a grown man and how you spend the rest of your life is entirely up to you.

Personally, I think your wife deserves to know everything that's going on in your head that effects the marriage, but then again - that could be dangerous, because then she might take you seriously and start changing.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 09:35 PM
Originally Posted By: booka
I understand you all to well and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it will take a total disruption of your life to effect any possibility of positive change. Your fear will make you risk-adverse to that level of change.


Correct. You do understand me.

Quote:
It boils down to whether or not you want to live your life.


Nope. Life is too scary. I prefer to be anesthetized.

Soolee

I wish your wife knew what you thought, maybe she would change.

Several years ago we had a frequent poster who went to counselling with his wife. Eventually she realized he was serious about not wanting to continue the game playing. I can remember what he said happened next:

I say the light bulb go on in her head. And then she took off so far and so fast, I haven't heard from her since.

I am sure Mrs. Hold would change her behavior if she knew how I felt. She would run so far and so fast I would never catch up to her.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/25/09 09:51 PM
Holding,

I hear you about the fear of withdrawing from your kids if divorce were to happen. I fear the same thing, and that is why I will bare this out until they are out of the house.

Have a good thanks giving.
Posted By: mamma23 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/26/09 03:25 AM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit

That is my essential dilemma. I am not trying to achieve happiness for myself.


How come?

Hold, I want to apologize for my unkind post yesterday.Of course I do not wish your marriage to go down-hill faster. You have enough problems and you certainly don't need me bashing you on an internet forum. It's just that we are all finding it very difficult to accept your decision, which is "I know I can - but I will not help myself".
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/26/09 03:38 AM
Hold, I haven't given up on you either. It takes what it takes. I'm grateful y'all didn't give up on me when I went through a stubborn period.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/26/09 03:46 AM
I am sure Mrs. Hold would change her behavior if she knew how I felt. She would run so far and so fast I would never catch up to her.

I am surprised and disappointed that you have such little faith in your ability to get your point across in such a way that wouldn't alienate her. Given your vocation and all the time you've spent here, you've surely learned enough skills to do this effectively? What makes you so sure of your proposed outcome? When did you acquire the ability to read her mind?

Hold...let me ask this too...If you could erase the past and all the hard feelings - and if you were a stranger to your wife and you just met, would you consider yourself worthy to be her husband? Would YOU want to be married to you?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 02:23 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
if you were a stranger to your wife and you just met, would you consider yourself worthy to be her husband? Would YOU want to be married to you?


No, not at this point. Being married to someone who isn't even trying to be happy must be awful.

Had a very interesting weekend psych-wise.

Saturday morning the kids were out and Mrs. Hold and I talked briefly at the kitchen table. I said "to me, there are 2 possibilities. Either you never found me at all attractive but you tolerated me for the money and parenting. That is a soul deadening level of rejection. Or you have issues from the rapes which remain unresolved. I can understand not wanting to deal with them. I have issues I am not dealing with, either. But if you don't, I see no chance for us reconnecting." She said "I have put the rapes behind me. I wanted you back with me even though it would have been easy to just let you stay in the living room. I love you." Then she hugged me.

I realize that was huge on her part. I am so dead inside, I felt nothing.

Saturday night was my 30th high school reunion. I made the 2.5 hour drive to attend. Saw some people I have not seen in ages. The good news is that it confirmed my memory - I was not really friends with anyone. Which in a wierd way felt good. These days I frequently question my grasp on objective reality. I wonder whether perhaps my perceptions are false and reality was different than I remember. But in this case I was right. There wasn't anyone who had stories to tell of our time together in high school. Even the kid who lived down the block and our families took turns making lunch during elementary school (we were "walkers" who went home for lunch) didn't have much to say about me. Except to confirm to a gal who thought she was the biggest nerd in our class "no, Hold was". And this guy teaches high school math, so from him it is high praise!

I am glad I went. Would have been easy to give in to my fear and stay home and "hide". It was not painful. Even being snubbed by some people I went to elementary school with was not bad (although perhaps that is evidence of how depressed I am). And although I am far from handsome, it was good to see how old some of the guys looked. I don't have a huge gut and still have most of my hair so I didn't look that bad.

Sunday morning we got up early and Mrs. Hold "debriefed" me about the reunion. Then she stroked me all over and we had sex. Miserable failure on my part despite the Viagra, but that is what I have come to expect so by now it is probably a self-fulfilling prophesy.

You know how sometimes you perceive something not by its presence but by its absence? That was this weekend. I realize how depressed I am by the absence of feelings.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 03:16 PM
I said "to me, there are 2 possibilities. Either you never found me at all attractive but you tolerated me for the money and parenting. That is a soul deadening level of rejection. Or you have issues from the rapes which remain unresolved. I can understand not wanting to deal with them. I have issues I am not dealing with, either. But if you don't, I see no chance for us reconnecting." She said "I have put the rapes behind me. I wanted you back with me even though it would have been easy to just let you stay in the living room. I love you." Then she hugged me.

Hold, I'd just like to congratulate you for having this conversation with her. I think it was very important. I'd like to challenge you to take this another step further and ask her how you can know she is past the rapes and that perhaps counseling for her may help you move beyond it? Perhaps suggest that as a couple both of you need to move beyond the rapes and POJA on how to accomplish that.

I think when a person is raped, the rape doesn't just happen to the direct victim, but also to those who love and care about that person. I think your focus on the rapes suggests that you do love and care for her.

I can relate on the reunion thing. I'm 46 and haven't been to one yet. Was thinking the other day how I sort of snubbed someone I went to school with because she wouldn't have anything to do with me in high school and then suddenly when we have kids the same age, we're supposed to be friends. I just didn't have it in me. I have enough friends, you know?

Also can relate on perhaps aging a bit better than some. It's a good feeling.

Hold, can you understand that even if your wife wasn't raped, even if that wasn't part of the issue here, trying to reconnect with you in this state would be difficult for her? We can sit back and say that your state is due to her, but where does your own responsibility fall in this? Hold...how do you feel about going on an AD for a while? Possibly getting some more counseling? No offense intended. Do you think it may benefit you to go perhaps once every month until you are in a better position to decide your future for sure.
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 03:38 PM
Soolee very interesting post!! many thoughts come to my mind about Mr.and Mrs Hold just wondering if Mrs.hold has been connected all this time but withdrew into spending and from sex because thats the only way she could get any attention from Mr.Hold. She saw Mr. hold being a good parent and she tried by going over board with gifts and extra spending thinking that was her way of being a good parent to their children and Mr. Hold loves his children. After readying that post about the reunion just wondering abou Mr. Holds peception in and about life in general. Maybe some anti-dep meds might do the trick. I am on a mild one and it really does help. Hold I think there is more love in both of you than you are able to reconise!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 03:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
I have enough friends, you know?


No, I don't know. But I'll take your word on it. stickout

Quote:
trying to reconnect with you in this state would be difficult for her?


Not difficult. Impossible. I am not open to her reconnecting.

Quote:
We can sit back and say that your state is due to her, but where does your own responsibility fall in this?


My state is not due to her. It predates meeting her by decades. Marrying her just reinforced all my bad tendencies.

Quote:
Hold...how do you feel about going on an AD for a while? Possibly getting some more counseling? No offense intended. Do you think it may benefit you to go perhaps once every month until you are in a better position to decide your future for sure.


No offense taken. Been in counseling before. Been on AD meds before. Doubt going back would benefit me. But probably worth getting my files from the various docs so I can recreate the history of what I tried before.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 03:42 PM
Originally Posted By: dsd
just wondering if Mrs.hold has been connected all this time but withdrew into spending and from sex because thats the only way she could get any attention from Mr.Hold.


Nope. She withdrew from sex back when I spent every waking moment outside work kissing her butt. We spent every minute of every night and weekend together. She was never connected once I slid the ring on her finger.

But that is beside the point. As many here have said, at this point the focus should be on me and my life and the problems inside my head and not on Mrs. Hold.
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 03:50 PM
Hold i would urge you to see a doc. there a many meds that might be able to help you and they all work different for different people. Just because you did nt seem to think it helped before does nt mean it wont help now!!! Just give it a chance and maybe everybody will be glad you did.This has got to be affecting them.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 06:21 PM
Hi Hold.

So I read your "either/or" statement. And, of course, I certainly am of the opinion that your wife's history of sexual abuse affects your sexual relationship today...

I often think in the same way of my husband's disinterest... Either he's simply not attracted to the real-life me (and only was in the early months when it was new), or he doesn't really love me, or living with a violent brother made his guard so thick that it's hard to be vulnerable with sex.

HOWEVER...

It is possible that none of our conclusions are correct... And then what do we do? What if our spouses are simply not really interested in sex? What if it actually has NOTHING TO DO WITH US?! What if it's nothing that can ever be fixed?! What if they really and truly do love us, and are as healthy as they can be--only they do not really care to have sex?

I think that is a far scarier reality to live with. I mean, if it's because of how I look, or something that I'm doing, at least there is a chance that one day, our sex life will improve. If there's something wrong with him, well, there is also a chance that one day he will find peace/healing and be more free to explore a positive sex life.

But if he is simply not interested. I mean, if this is all he's got, and I have no carrot big enough to dangle to interest him in engaging in SF... then what do we do?

That's more painful than whether or not she is rejecting you. SHe is NOT rejecting you, Hold. She knows you want sex, but she simply cannot compute how deeply her disinterest hurts you. She can't relate, because she does not think that way, feel that way, and even if you can communicate in a way so that she DOES understand, she will probably never change.

She could love you fiercely, and never have any more interest in sex than she does now. SHe could love you more than she has ever loved anyone in her life, and it simply never stimulate her sexually. Ever. And that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with you.

When we first got married, my husband was excited about sex. For about 3 months. Then I saw the decline--and I soon realized how he was able to stay celibate for so long. He simply doesn't feel desire with anything near the frequency that I do. I mean it can be months and months and months (we are, after all, averaging 1 time of intercourse every 2 1/2 years) before he is aroused. And he has no interest in arousing me in any way other than sex, and only when he is interested which, as I said is seldom.

I have spent years thinking that it was me. That I had done something to kill his interest in this area. Or there was some way he was wounded that inhibits him.

I didn't. There isn't.

He just isn't interested.

How do we live with that? How do we make our lives full and complete and wonderful when we are living with someone who chooses not to engage us sexually? I have a vivid and active imagination. I have so many ideas for things that would be fun and interesting... But even without doing anything extra, I am just happy to touch and be touched, and have it culminate in SF!

I do love my husband. But sometimes I hate him. And sometimes I deeply resent that I am in this kind of marriage--one where an important EN and aspect of our relationship is never going to be fulfilled. One that I was so looking forward to for so long.

However, you and I have a choice, my friend. And it isn't about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. It's getting to the point where our life is full enough and happy enough so that we can live well without SF--at least until you (we?) have ended our marriages.

Does this make sense? I think I'm rambling. ANd daughter's bus will be here in a few minutes.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 07:05 PM
Telly:

Excellent point. I have spent enormous time on another discussion board (that Stella / Baba pointed me to years ago) exploring those issues.

I think it is possible for some people to love intensely but not have much interest in sex. Many people are like that. There is nothing wrong with them. They do not have a "defect" that has to be "cured". They are just different than those of us who desire sex intensely. And it is just as likely that those of us who desire sex intensely have a "defect" that needs to be "cured" (such as low self esteem or depression that we are trying to medicate through sex / orgasms).

As Starfish has pointed out here several times, many people desire sex intensely during the early stages of a relationship while PEA is coursing through their brains. Later, when the PEA is replaced by oxytocin (as occurs naturally in most humans during long term relationships), those people stop desiring sex so intensely. Those people do not consciously pull a "bait and switch". They truly want sex at the beginning and they do not consciously choose to stop wanting sex later. But the change (albeit natural) can cause tremendous pain even if both people understand the mechanism.

There are not always pleasant solutions to a large and persistent mismatch in libido. It can and often does destroy relationships. Doesn't have to. But needs to be handled with grace. Which people involved in mismatches often find difficult to offer each other.

My relationship problems are no longer about sex, although that continues to be a problem in our relationship. My life problem is no longer about my relationship, although that continues to be a problem as well.

My problem is that I am so depressed I don't even want to seek help to stop being depressed. I have accepted that I am going to be unhappy for the rest of my life and am not motivated to do anything to change my trajectory. That problem has is not Mrs. Hold's fault. It is on me. And she can't solve it. Only I can.

But first I have to want to solve it.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 07:19 PM
I don't know, Hold.

If you can force yourself to turn off the alarm, take a shower, dress, eat, and go to work everyday...then I think you can force yourself to gather your lab results and medical information and make an appointment.

Don't worry about feeling the urge to seek help. I am sure there are plenty of days you don't feel the urge to go to work either. You just do it because you have to.

It occurred to me that the holidays are here, and there are many people who become depressed during those weeks. Could be that for someone who is mildly depressed, the sitch can become even worse.

I know for me, the holidays are always stressful - Could this be compounding your depression as well?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 07:42 PM
I would like to weigh in here. I had the low libido husband. He insisted it was "just the way he was" and had nothing to do with me.

1. It took me three years to believe him
2. Another few years to work the problem out
3. We had to both LOVE each other enough to fight thru it.

I feel that if a person marries you and claims to love you, they will and should do everything, whatever is needed....to try and make you happy.

If that thing that you need,, (which most married people need and expect) is SEX, then whatever they believe about it or whatever they hate about it, they must find a way to meet YOUR sexual needs. If they love you they will pleasure you, learn to pleasure you, take care of you in the sex department, and set aside what they want or do not want.

In addition, I know that a grown man who wants or has very little sex MUST KNOW HE IS NOT THE NORM> He must know from teaching marriage classes, or how other men talk about sex....or from being in the WORLD, that HE IS ABNORMAL for wanting sex only once every few years. He has to know this. If he does not know how abnormal he is then he is crazy.

So, this man, who is outside the norm, also HAS TO KNOW THAT HIS WIFE HAS NORMAL MARITAL SEXUAL NEEDS. He has to know it and he HAS TO ACTIVELY IGNORE HER in order to justify his extreme sexual neglect.

Our solution was this. My husband asks to make love whenever he wants "it" (and since we talked about having differing desires) then, he told me to ask WHENEVER I want sex and he will honor my request and respect and love me by giving me the pleasure and physical closeness I want right when I ask or very soon after, like the same day I ask.

I have learned new ways of asking for sex that allow some flexibility:

1. Honey how bout some loving? Tonight or tomorrow morning (gives him a choice)
2. Lets go upstairs and cuddle (can lead to sex or the cuddling is nice too)
3. Want some sex tomorrow morning? (specific time is good sometimes)
4. Feel like some sex? (now)
5. Feel like some sex? (now but could agree to postpone it)
6. We get to bed and sometimes we choose what we want to do there.

There are so many ways to ask for sex, also some non verbal ways. Once you start getting regular sex again, you can relax the schedule and rules and allow flexibility. Getting used to asking for sex is half of it. Having a loving spouse is the main thing.

It is only fair if one partner wants a huge plate of food and the other partner only wants a tiny plate of food, that both get to eat whatever they want. If one wants to paint the room blue and the other one wants to paint it red, then a compromise is in order.

Yet, sex is not food, sex is way more important than who paints what.... a certain color....and it takes a LOVING spouse to help the other spouse have the sex they want. So, both spouses have to determine what is going on and work together to solve the problem.

1. Both spouses, the High libido and Low libido spouse, must sit down and figure out exactly what is happening or not happening in the sexual area.

2. Then, both must tell the other one thier needs.

3. Then, both must sit down and honor the other one's needs

4. Then, a schedule must be worked out or another solution derived in order to meet BOTH PEOPLE"S NEEDS.

5. If one partner is asexual, this can be dealt with but must be faced.

6. IF both people do not face this issue, it will never get better.

7. These steps HAVE TO BE CONTINUED until the PROBLEM IS SOLVED OR A WORKOUT IS COMPLETED.


Can you, will you, be brave and persisitant enough to face this issue head on? Or will you continue to back down and live with constant sexual neglect?

Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 07:50 PM
Bubbles:

As always, thank you for the love and for the fire and outrage on my behalf that I find difficult to summon within myself.

Mrs. Hold and I are way beyond where sex is the issue we need to address first. At this point, her offering more sex would be counter-productive. I would not be able to accept her offer as a loving gesture. I cannot achieve or maintain erections, even with viagra. So I now view sex as a negative experience. I need to heal myself before we can heal the sex problem between us.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 07:55 PM
HOLD this is what we see on the other board. One persons sexual dysfunction is like a bad disease that spreads to the other, previously healthy spouse.

You need to get away from her. She is so bad for you. Being with that user has ruined your already shakey self esteem. Staying with her continues the ruination of it.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 07:56 PM
Hold, I forget. Does MrsHold know about MB? Is she aware of LBs and ENs? If so, have you ever described to her how she could change so that it would build up your love bank again? As in stop LBing you and meet your ENs? Is she aware that you have stopped loving her and that she could possibly reverse that?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 08:04 PM
Cat, she was on MB for a while, the coldest poster who was ever here. Also, she has had 12 years counseling about 4 were MB based. She responded to NONE of it. She is one cold woman.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 08:05 PM
I wish there was some way to REACH the MRS.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 08:18 PM
I'm only asking because NOW, when Hold is finally being honest with her about leaving her, she is finally saying and doing things that five years ago may have touched him. Tells me that just maybe she really loves and wants him enough to be ready to stop being so spoiled and selfish. Just maybe.

But if he doesn't point out HOW she could change, she might never know what to do. We've all seen people here ready to leave, dead to their spouse, and the spouse changes things up, and the poster is astounded to find out his/her love really was still there, just buried under a lifetime of hurt.

Can't hurt to tell her such things. Even if today he doesn't want her back any more.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 08:29 PM
These days, I wish there was some way to reach me.

It is the ultimate irony. She was more loving this past weekend than at any time I can remember. But I am now unmoved by her gestures. Too little too late. I have become so messed up inside my head that even though I can intellectually see that her actions are intended to be loving, and that I would have felt loved if she had done then earlier, I don't feel loved now.

Before the reunion, she asked why I was going. I think she feared that I was hoping to reconnect with an old flame. I told her (truthfully) that there were no old flames to rekindle. I never dated anyone from my high school class. I only dated 2 or 3 girls, all very briefly. A couple who went to different schools. And then a sophomore when I was a senior. So there were no "rivals" at the reunion. She was surprised. I guess she never realized how alone I was during high school. When I said I did not date during high school, she didn't realize I meant I LITERALLY never dated any of my classmates.

She seemed to be very compassionate when I admitted that it felt good, in a wierd way, to see that I really did not have any close friends in high school. That it meant I wasn't totally psychotic. That the isolation and alienation I felt at the time were at least partly real.

She expressed worry that our son is the same way. Many acquaintances but no close friends. She is worried that he will end up like me. I told her not to worry. He often gets invited to parties, and goes. He has gone to more parties in the first 3 months of freshman year than I did all 4 years of high school combined. Very different. She felt reassured about S15. And worse for me.

Obviously her reaching out to stroke me and have sex with me yesterday were meant to be healing. Not totally her fault that I have twisted myself to the point that even sex with her is now a negative experience. That I cannot perform even with pharmacological assistance.

The scariest part is that I don't even feel suicidal. There was a time when ED would have made me anxious and despondent. Now I am just numb. I failed. So what. What else is new? BTDT. I don't need to kill myself to make the pain stop. I already don't feel anything.

Except tremendous rage at myself for throwing my life away. But I figure that dedicating myself to continued failure is appropriate punishment for that.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 08:36 PM
Oh hold.

You have to get some help.

I have been reading/posting to you now for 9 years. You matter to me (and many others here--and undoubtedly in real life).

Have you ever watched the movie "The Game" with Micheal Douglas? It's a really good movie. I think you should watch it.

(((((Hold))))))
Please get help, dear hold.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 08:43 PM
Hold, you might have missed my last post. Could you respond please? Thanks.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 09:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
If you can force yourself to turn off the alarm, take a shower, dress, eat, and go to work everyday...then I think you can force yourself to gather your lab results and medical information and make an appointment.


Nope. It is about perceived psychological cost, not energy required.

If what you posted were true, then we could tell all the lower libido spouses at MB "if you can force yourself to do the laundry or yard work, then you can take half the time to have sex with your spouse." Doesn't work that way.

Quote:
It occurred to me that the holidays are here, and there are many people who become depressed during those weeks. Could be that for someone who is mildly depressed, the sitch can become even worse. I know for me, the holidays are always stressful - Could this be compounding your depression as well?


Yes, seasonal depression tends to occur this time of year. Affects many people. Sorryt o hear it affects you.

Not my issue. I don't get depressed because it is dark. Or because of the holidays. I am depressed because the last "milestone" between now and high school graduation has passed. And I realize where my plans have me headed. And I don't want to go there. But I don't want to change course, either.

Depression is rejection of responsibility. I don't have the guts to take charge of my life. Or to own up to my responsibilities. So I go numb. And refuse to admit they matter. But they do. No matter how firmly I push my fingers into my ears.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 10:19 PM
Hold,

Who says I am talking about physical energy required? Actually, I was talking about the emotional energy.

You go to work for your family - so that you can provide for them, right? Why would you not see a doctor so that you can be a more productive member of the family and a better father? (shrugging here and not seeing much of a difference).

You're a bit off on the milestone thing - you skipped over first dates, driving, and prom. Anyway...doesn't look to me like I'm helping much here.

I do think you should find someone who will work with you to find the type of medication that will work for your body, and I think you would do well to find an individual counselor. I'm not a professional, but some of the things you've said make me think there could be more to this than mild depression.

Does depression run in your family? Wouldn't you like to get this straightened out in case it does and in case your children may be predisposed? You obviously love them and are concerned about them. Why show love and concern with some issues and not with others?
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 10:23 PM
I think you need some friends.

I know that requires "work". But my gosh, hold. You are funny, interesting, smart, charming--and you even have a lot of "pluck" regarding certain things (remember the walk in women's shoes?).

You deserve to laugh, and be lighthearted sometimes. To be celebrated and enjoyed by friends, and with friends.

I think that would be the best kind of help you could get.

Does it matter that people here care about you? :-(

I wish I could do something for you.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 10:39 PM
Hold,

Man we're in the same boat. I feel for you and I can relate to even not wanting SF at times and I'm getting to the point that I am having a harder and harder time getting... well hard.

Yes, too little too late.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 10:40 PM
Hold,

You nailed your depression really well...disowning yourself. Gotta hurt...cause a lot of anger at the injustice you do to yourself...and self is gonna hurt until it's numb of hurting.

You know this.

Would you act for your own benefit if forced to?

Someone did this for me...radical honesty...when a relative turned to my DH and said, "Are you going to divorce her? Aren't you miserable with her depression?" Then she turned to me and said, "Snap out of it."

I did...I used the fake it til ya make it way of acting and having new feelings follow....because what followed her asking my DH if he were going to divorce me due to misery...really shocked me.

You might get your wish fulfillment...that horrible false payoff you're gunning for...where Mrs Hold decides to divorce you, accept a much lower lifestyle, because your misery cuts her to the bone...which would make you right, wouldn't it?

In a way, don't you hate her loving you, instead of hating you like you hate yourself? She can't even do that for you, can she? You may long for feeling very loved and very comfortable being despised...which is why it's a choice.

Your loving feelings follow your own loving actions. You went to the reunion and validated you weren't nuts...and you matched your self-image with other images and came home to the one woman in the world who knows you all over...all your parts...and she embraced you, listened to you "share" (not debrief) and made love to the real you...

No wonder you don't feel anything...you didn't act and have the feelings follow. You expected them from the outside, again, and they didn't come in.

What if now, Hold, you can look again at all that rejection you saw as coming in from the outside...and see it wasn't...might make you mistaken...and end up being loved, anyway.

Because you are, have been and will be. Get out of your own way. Ask Mrs Hold to HELP you...tell her you've self-injured too long to do it for you...ask her to get you to where you need to be...to take charge, because you're sick of depression...

LA
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 10:58 PM
I agree that Hold has many qualities that draw us back over and over again. He writes well, describes himself and his situation in a way that is easily comprehended too. Journaling may be a good outlet for someone with such skills.

I also think that despite the things Mrs. Hold may or may not have done to affect Hold's feelings, he still has a responsibility to protect his family from the depression. I don't see that.

Maybe I don't understand depression well enough. That could be it. All I know is that he's perfectly capable of articulating his feelings here, not all without humor. He's a functional human being and father, holding a job, going to Temple, involved in outside activities, etc. etc.

What this seems to boil down to, despite what Hold is saying, is that he's very angry - so angry that it has had a strangle hold on his heart and has cut off the circulation to his feelings. He's coming across at this point as apathetic, but his heart is actually in a state of torsion. jmho.

Hold...if you won't see anyone for ADs, how do you feel about starting to train again for something - getting some real physical exercise - the kind that makes the sweat run in rivulets, and maybe some good Hatha yoga to give it balance? Also, what about foods that help combat depression? Ever look into that?

Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 11:30 PM
Hold, what do you think about the idea that your issues now could be related to getting desensitized by too much stimulation in the recent past? Like SW's H, pushing her for more and more "out there" stuff because of his choice of solo activity made the stuff that they were doing not enough anymore?
Posted By: dsd Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 11/30/09 11:33 PM
and or maybe you need a higher dose of viagra. Get some things a working for you and the others may fall into place a little easier.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 06:13 AM
Soolee, I don't mean to chase you away with my eeyore attitude. Then again I don't intend many of the negative consequences my behavior generates.

The reason I am not motivated to get help for my depression is that I have done so many times over the decades and it has made little or no difference. At this point depression has overtaken my motivation to seek help. I am not a try try again fellow. I follow the W C Fields version "if at first you don't succeed, try again. Then quit. No use being a darned fool about it." Was on a poster in my parents' basement for many years.

I do need to get back to the gym. Been intending to for several weeks. Maybe next week. I think the lack of exercise this year may be contributing to my ED problems.

Thanks for all the encouragement. I don't deserve so much support from so many people here.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 01:36 PM
Hold, my husband is in a similar position. He says he's "done" with the ADs, "done" with the counselors, both individual and marriage. Yet he's still clearly miserable with life. I wish I had a quick-and-easy solution to offer!

Steve Harley is working with me to get H on the phone with him. Not sure what will be accomplished once that goal is attained, but I figure, baby steps. Anyway, Steve's opinion of H's situation--not sure if any of this applies to you--is that he's like a rudderless boat in the water. He lacks the right tools to escape his situation. Perhaps some of that applies to you as well?

In any case, getting back to an exercise program can't hurt anything and will most likely help on some level. That sounds like a great idea.

Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 03:04 PM
Hi dear hold.

So I've been thinking about you... Do you think it's possible that you don't feel anything not because you are so sad and miserable that you've become numb, but because you are actually furious?

I've heard it said that depression is anger turned inward. What if you are so angry that it takes every ounce of energy to keep that anger surpressed?

You really do need to work out. Forget focusing on anything else extra, but get back to working out. Maybe you can take a boxing/kickboxing class--or something that includes releasing explosive bouts of energy... maybe then it would help release some of what you cannot allow yourself to feel right now.

You need a release valve. Get out there and excercise. Punch some bags. Kick some bags. Pound it out.

ANd don't wait until next week. Do it a couple of times before this week is out.

Can you at do that at least?

(((Hold)))
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 04:56 PM
I agree with Telly. If you have not learned to show, feel, or properly express anger it can come out on your inner self and mask as depression or sadness.

HOLD If I were you, married to that woman and what she did and how she neglects you yet demands "everything", I would be sooooooooo terribly angry day and night. Could be part of the sex issues also, who could have sex with a person they were terribly angry at. I have never heard you get angry at your user wife. After all she did, you SHOULD be terribly angry and you SHOULD be venting it out somewhere.

And Telly, the same is true for you. After all your husband did to do, the hyprocacy of his teaching "marriage classes" and the terrible neglect to your needs your emotions, your personhood, your very spirit, and total 100% neglect of your sexual self, I would be TERRIBLY AND DAILY ENRAGED! Constantly angry. And justifiably so!!!!

But instead of feeling that anger, due to what he is doing to you, and the terrible neglect, you have to hide that and gulp down handfuls of antidepressants. Telly how can you stand to walk with your husband down to the store? How can you stand to be in the same house with such a man????? I am so angry for what he did to you. He is ruining your life every single day. You could have married a normal loving, easy going man and had a great life. This man you married is cruel and self centered.

IF BUT I COULD BE ANGRY FOR YOU BOTH SO YOU DID NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT LEARNING ALL ABOUT ANGER, HOW TO FEEL YOUR ANGER, HOW TO EXPRESS IT, THAT IT IS A VALID EMOTION LIKE ALL THE OTHERS, ETC, ETC.

Please learn about anger so you do not accidently take that anger out on your precious selves. Learn how to FEEL anger. Learn how to EXPRESS anger. Learn why you are angry. Learn why you have a right to be angry. Please learn that your inner anger is OK.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 06:37 PM
I feel plenty of anger. The constant mantra inside my head when I am not distracted is "FYB, FYB, FYB". But as you say, I do not show it externally as anger. Externally I am sometimes pleasant. Often depressed. Rarely angry.

During marriage counselling, I sometimes expressed my anger. The rest of that session, and frequently the bulk of the next session, was then devoted to my expressions of anger. Not the lack of sex. Not the overspending. My anger. My anger was seen as justification for Mrs. Hold not having sex with me. This occurred with several different MCs over several years. So I learned not to express my anger.

No wonder I am so depressed! Now, what do I do about it? I think Telly's idea of kick boxing is a good start. I think Mrs. Hold has a Tae Bo tape stashed somewhere.
Posted By: TheAntiChick Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 07:00 PM
Hold -

See if there's a Krav Maga studio anywhere in your area. There was nothing like it for venting my aggression before my knee wouldn't let me do it anymore.

I also have battled depression for a long time, and can relate to many of your statements. I add my voice to the chorus encouraging you to seek help. The new AD's work so much better than what I was on 10 years ago, combined with IC, it's made a world of difference for me and my outlook.

Best of luck to you!
TAC
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 08:04 PM
HOld, let me know how the tae bo thing goes--and then you should check out a real kickboxing class at your gum.

Well, I don't actually take anti-depressants, and I am learning to deal with my anger.

On Sunday, my H and I had an iI did have an interaction that left me very angry. I walked away from the situation, and left him with the girls while I tried to calm down. I journalled, and tried to give voice to the feelings I had inside.

I was getting close, talking about how angry I was, but I couldn't get the anger to ebb. Finally, I tapped into what I really wanted to say in that moment... It was "Ignore this, A-h--e" with a big punch at the end of it.

As I imagined that exchange, the anger actually faded.

I think we have to acknowledge our anger in the deepest, and most REAL place possible. We can't let of our anger unless we give it a voice, a place, and let it breathe. Then it can quiet again.

Anyway, I was able to completely calm down, the anger ebbed, I went back and we worked through the issue.

There are other ways to get it out--that's why I think the kickboxing is a good option.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 11:08 PM
Telly, I really do agree with you on this. I think that part of Hold's problem is that in the process of keeping his anger under wraps, maybe he never found a healthy way to get rid of it and maybe even thought it wasn't necessary. So he buried it, and it developed into depression.

I think it's important to note that it simply is not enough to hold it in, just because it seems like the easiest and most noble thing to do to avoid outside problems with others. We avoid or eat certain foods to keep our bodies from suffering. Why, then, don't we treat our emotional health with equal care?
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 11:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Telly
She could love you fiercely, and never have any more interest in sex than she does now. SHe could love you more than she has ever loved anyone in her life, and it simply never stimulate her sexually. Ever. And that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with you.

When we first got married, my husband was excited about sex. For about 3 months. Then I saw the decline--and I soon realized how he was able to stay celibate for so long. He simply doesn't feel desire with anything near the frequency that I do. I mean it can be months and months and months (we are, after all, averaging 1 time of intercourse every 2 1/2 years) before he is aroused. And he has no interest in arousing me in any way other than sex, and only when he is interested which, as I said is seldom.

I have spent years thinking that it was me. That I had done something to kill his interest in this area. Or there was some way he was wounded that inhibits him.

I didn't. There isn't.

He just isn't interested.

How do we live with that? How do we make our lives full and complete and wonderful when we are living with someone who chooses not to engage us sexually? I have a vivid and active imagination. I have so many ideas for things that would be fun and interesting... But even without doing anything extra, I am just happy to touch and be touched, and have it culminate in SF!


Telly, Hold said this didn't apply to his situation, but I'm SO glad you posted it, because I think it applies to mine. Thank you.
Posted By: DaisyTheCat2 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 11:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
I would like to weigh in here. I had the low libido husband. He insisted it was "just the way he was" and had nothing to do with me.

1. It took me three years to believe him
2. Another few years to work the problem out
3. We had to both LOVE each other enough to fight thru it.

I feel that if a person marries you and claims to love you, they will and should do everything, whatever is needed....to try and make you happy.


Wow, Bubbles, thank you. As I just commented on Telly's post, I really benefitted from what you wrote, even though it was directed to Hold.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/01/09 11:54 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
These days, I wish there was some way to reach me.

It is the ultimate irony. She was more loving this past weekend than at any time I can remember. But I am now unmoved by her gestures. Too little too late. I have become so messed up inside my head that even though I can intellectually see that her actions are intended to be loving, and that I would have felt loved if she had done then earlier, I don't feel loved now.

Before the reunion, she asked why I was going. I think she feared that I was hoping to reconnect with an old flame. I told her (truthfully) that there were no old flames to rekindle. I never dated anyone from my high school class. I only dated 2 or 3 girls, all very briefly. A couple who went to different schools. And then a sophomore when I was a senior. So there were no "rivals" at the reunion. She was surprised. I guess she never realized how alone I was during high school. When I said I did not date during high school, she didn't realize I meant I LITERALLY never dated any of my classmates.

She seemed to be very compassionate when I admitted that it felt good, in a wierd way, to see that I really did not have any close friends in high school. That it meant I wasn't totally psychotic. That the isolation and alienation I felt at the time were at least partly real.

She expressed worry that our son is the same way. Many acquaintances but no close friends. She is worried that he will end up like me. I told her not to worry. He often gets invited to parties, and goes. He has gone to more parties in the first 3 months of freshman year than I did all 4 years of high school combined. Very different. She felt reassured about S15. And worse for me.

Obviously her reaching out to stroke me and have sex with me yesterday were meant to be healing. Not totally her fault that I have twisted myself to the point that even sex with her is now a negative experience. That I cannot perform even with pharmacological assistance.

The scariest part is that I don't even feel suicidal. There was a time when ED would have made me anxious and despondent. Now I am just numb. I failed. So what. What else is new? BTDT. I don't need to kill myself to make the pain stop. I already don't feel anything.

Except tremendous rage at myself for throwing my life away. But I figure that dedicating myself to continued failure is appropriate punishment for that.


Hello Hold,

It's been a while since I visited the board, and I see this thread is still quite active.

So, wow, she offered sex -- how often is that?
And you pretty much are not into it with her anymore, I can understand that since you've pretty much convinced yourself you're stuck in a sexless marriage and actually accepting that life for the kids.

As for me, I've been in Hormone Replacement Therapy since my T-levels are quite low. It's helping a bit as far me not being in that depressive mood / mode of thinking.

I just had my doze up'ped yesterday because my last blood test was still low. I've been doing diligent strength building in the gym, but need to do more cardio to lose weight. I actually stopped going to the gym for the past 3 weeks due to flu and upper respiratory infection. So I got my work cut out ahead in this area.

As for sex, the feelings are not as bad as before, and I can handle it fine. I've been doing the No More Mr Nice Guy approach ever since I got a hold of the book.

I've pretty much eliminated my passive-aggressive behaviors. I express how I feel more directly without fear, be that I am sad, angry, or mad.

Good luck and take care of yourself.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 08:17 AM
Sorry, I have nothing helpful to add; just a question:

Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I feel plenty of anger. The constant mantra inside my head when I am not distracted is "FYB, FYB, FYB". But as you say, I do not show it externally as anger. Externally I am sometimes pleasant. Often depressed. Rarely angry.


Can you please teach me to be externally pleasant (even sometimes) in spite of a similar mantra?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 10:29 AM
Hold...is there any chance that you misunderstood the counselor or took it upon yourself to twist the advice a bit? Did the counselor say to withhold angry outbursts, or withhold anger altogether?

Just wondering...because here's a counselor who couldn't help you as a couple - Are you so sure that their advice to you as an individual wouldn't be off the mark as well?

Can you recall that conversation? Just wondering.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 02:27 PM
Hold, I want to recommend to you a book.

I don't remember the author, but it's called "I know I'm in there somewhere".

I read it, and it's been really helping me to deal with my anger. It isn't enough just to say in your head "fyb" and to KNOW that you are angry.

Your anger has to have a place. Otherwise, all you are doing is holding back the dam. Sure, you know there is anger behind the dam, and some of it spills over on you--but the energy it takes to hold that dam back can prevent you from having any other emotion.

I would venture that you have anger not just towards your wife, but towards your parents and other situations in your life. It's a lot easier to say "Oh I'm JUST angry at myself and my wife", while holding up the dam.

That isn't enough. You have to let it out. You have to let it have a voice... I don't mean unleashing it on your wife. I mean, letting it have a voice within YOU. Letting it teach you about yourself and your needs...

In any case, the book is really good--it isn't just about anger. It's kind of about finding yourself. It was very helpful for me, and I am still doing some of the things I learned about in there.
Posted By: Comfortably_Numb Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 04:16 PM
Hi Hold . . . it has been a while.

I don't have a lot to say that you haven’t heard, as we have both been at this for a long time. It does occur to me that perhaps you are reaching a new stage in the marriage . . . indifference.

I see others think you have suppressed anger and you agree to a certain extent: but really, who doesn't have some anger and resentment about their partner, the state of the marriage, where they are in their career, etc. ad nauseam? Anger is just an emotion.

I think indifference may bring you a new perspective. Detachment isn’t a four-letter word. Sometimes it is the smartest way to be. You certainly aren't begging for crumbs as you once were; that is progress of a sort. You aren’t looking to your wife for happiness and that is a good thing. Happiness has to come from an internal source and I can’t tell you how to find it . . . just where not to look. But you really should keep looking. Life is short and none of us are getting any younger. Life doesn’t have to be misery.

If nothing else, I can say that you have endurance . . . you are not a quitter and you know how to suffer. For some reason what pops into mind is something Hermann Hesse wrote in Siddhartha. A merchant asked Siddhartha what is his worth, what he can do? And Siddhartha said “I can think, I can wait, I can fast.” Perhaps that is enough sometimes, just to be able to think and wait. There will be a time for doing. You will know when that time is ripe.


As Always,

Comfortably Numb
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 04:56 PM
Took me nearly 24 hours to figure out what "fyb" means (I think I figured it out)...

was stuck on "for your buttons" for awhile

for your benefit

for your benevolence

I felt really slow and left out...

Then it hit me what it may well mean and I shocked myself.

No biggee...happens a lot.

smile

I think your belief you failed is the core of your anger.

You failed today to change someone else...to change their choices, their past choices, their future choices.

To me, that's an awesome, wonderful thing to fail at...and to realize you failed at it...because it wasn't real to begin with.

You can only fail today...one day at a time. God is looking out for you, insuring you fail at what wasn't within your power to begin with...that's how he doesn't fail you.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 06:53 PM
Originally Posted By: jayne241
Can you please teach me to be externally pleasant (even sometimes) in spite of a similar mantra?


No, and I don't think it would be a good idea to do it even if I could.

I can behave this way because I am sufficiently broken. Have sufficiently low self-esteem. Sufficiently little pride. That I am willing simply to TAKE IT. Even when I know I shouldn't. I can be pleasant because I do not respect myself enough to act upon my anger.

I don't think you want me to teach you how to be this way.

Originally Posted By: Soolee
is there any chance that you misunderstood the counselor or took it upon yourself to twist the advice a bit? Did the counselor say to withhold angry outbursts, or withhold anger altogether?


No, was fairly clear. Message was "we cannot work on her sexual rejection until you stop expressing so much anger." Nothing along the lines of "it is understandable that you may BE angry but you need to learn to express that anger in a more productive manner". None of the MCs turned to Mrs. Hold and said anything like "I know it hurts to have Hold express such anger toward you, but can you understand how much it hurts him when you reject him sexually? Can you understand how hard it is for him to control his anger in the face of continual rejection?" I got the message loud and clear. Do not overtly express any anger toward your wife if you hope to ever have sex again. Back then, I did hope for more sex. So I stopped expressing anger. I didn't stop FEELING the anger. I just stopped expressing it.

Well, except for the one session where the sex therapist asked me if I should rethink my goals in life and stop aiming for sex as an objective. I told her it is my life and I get to pick what I want and what I aim for and what I want is more sex. Her job was to help me get it. If she was not comfortable helping me to have a better sex life with my wife (she was, after all, a licensed AASECT sex therapist), then we were done.

Telly
Thanks for the book suggestion. Sounds like something I should look into.

CN
Thanks for checking in. I think you understand me very well. I am quite good at enduring my self-imposed abuse.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:00 PM
HOLD and Telly, it may help to literally BEND OVER.

When I was getting flack from my abusive boss years ago and some of the other gossipy co workers, I started to become depressed because I needed that job and was losing what little self esteem I had left to leave the bad job and get another better one.

I went home one day and "bent over" and yelled for them to #@$@%me one more time! Then I began yelling, "One more time and I am outta here!" Etc.

I yelled and screamed for a while in my empty house,, and then something changed within me and I was able to hold it together and apply for another job. I got the position (because I ASSUMED the position) and was better off.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:02 PM
Oh.

I thought maybe it was a useful coping skill. I mean, if I *am* saying "IHY IHY IHY" in my mind, as a mantra, I think I *do* need to not have that show on my face.

I've already tried the route of telling him. Didn't work. Now I don't wanna walk around with a snarl on my face every time I look at him.

As a somewhat related skill, it seems some folks have this ability to smile and appear quite nice and pleasant, all the while telling you something you don't want to hear.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:04 PM
Jayne, try smiling and BENDING OVER. Say; "Go ahead and $#%# me AGAIN!!!!!!"
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:16 PM
Jayne,

Is IHY "I hate you"?

If so, that mantra would be a repetitive lie, IMO.

You don't hate him. You hate what he didn't do.

And if that isn't correct, then you hate yourself...for what you didn't do, either.

Could be I'm in acronymic distress. Could be like an Alana Morrisette "IHEE" you mean, instead.

LA
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:19 PM
lol to Bubbles and LA!

LA, you are correct in what IHY means. I think it is a sign of how extremely caring and loving you are, that it took you so long to figure out what FYB meant.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:38 PM
These new acrynoms going to be added to 'The List'?
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 07:52 PM
lol, Lil...

good one.

Jayners...I'm no more caring and loving than you are...

When I promised myself (first, to keep my own darn promises) to get rid of the DJs, that included name-calling...because that's not allowed in my code...not at others and not at myself.

I had the IHY mantra in my head for most of my life...I love myself more for freeing myself from it...I experience my love so much more.

And here I am, wanting that for you, too. 'Cuz I love you.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 09:24 PM
LA
I have failed at changing me. And will continue to fail. Until my desire for change outweighs my fear of change.

I understand that God is providing for me. He is giving me ED. So I stop wanting sex. Stop pressuring my wife for sex. So maybe I can focus on something else besides sex. We shall see.

And I realize I only say FYB inside my head to distract myself from my real thought. Which is IHM. And please do not condescend to tell me that is a lie.

Some day, I may choose to forgive myself. And then perhaps IHM will not be true. But for now. It is.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/02/09 10:30 PM
:-(
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 01:55 AM
I remember the expression I used to say to myself over and over again in my head, "My life is being run by idiots!" Not even realizing that it was for me to Mind My Own Business, to run my own life, and competently at that. Like Stella switching jobs to one she wanted. Good thing we get do-overs!
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 03:56 PM
Hold, I don't know if I have ever posted to you before. I don't have great vastness of wisdom or anything. But I do feel for you. I have fits and spurts of your same feelings at times, or lack of feeling. I'd give you some of my lithium, but I need it smile

Like I said, I don't have any great comments that you haven't already heard from these people. I just envy your ability to be so honest sometimes. No, my life isn't like yours at this time, but there was a time I thought it was. And I actively tried to give up, not care, so it would quit hurting. I couldn't do it -- the eternal optimist, or more likely just stubborn. Now the areas of my life where I feel like you are not marriage. But I know that it still hurts, so I know you hurt, even if you don't feel it right now.

Anyway, that's enough rambling. I just wanted you to know I care.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 05:16 PM
Hold,

I hear you are hurt when I say I see you lie to yourself and that you don't want me saying that again.

It was figuring out all my lies to myself which enabled me to change...freed me to change my actions, my choices, form my code.

I'm limited to the only way I know.

And the lie is that you failed to change your choices today. That's it. Truly, that is reality. Today is all we have as humans...and no matter how broken, bad or unacceptable you view yourself...I believe we still agree you're human.

When we fail to choose differently, we can experience our lives as consistent failure. Becomes our comfort zone, where we achieve success by failing. You know this. You're choosing your perspective for a reason...please share your intent on continuing to make the same choices, "will continue to fail"...

Do you truly "I hate myself" or do you "I hate my choices"?

IHMC...sounds like a military branch to me.

Btw, I caught myself reactive yesterday at work...and discovered I am still keeping score when I believed I'd laid it down...put it away. Resentment is like a pulse to me. Does that mean I failed? Or failed yesterday to act and not react?

I owned my part and amended. Good to know, though I have definitely changed my choices (hence, changed per your post), I can still make old ones again, even when that's not my intent.

Minding my own business through you, Hold. Just like so many others here at MB, still in your corner, even if at times you may see it as being in the ring with me, instead.

smile

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 08:32 PM
My intention? To continue to make bad choices to punish myself for my past bad choices. To live with my mental illness, rather than to seek a cure. After all, I think we can agree I must have a mental illness if my intention is to spend the rest of my life punishing myself for being a nerd.

Do I hate me, or hate my choices? I think I truly hate me. I am so ashamed of who I am. Not just the choices. I hate my body. Even though I have been blessed (so far) with relatively good health and functionality my entire life. I focus on what I lack rather than what I have been blessed with. I hate that I am short. I hate that my son is short in large part because of the genes he inherited from me. I hate my face. I hate my private parts. I am a walking bundle of hate. Sometimes I wonder how I even get out of bed in the morning. Then I realize that I get out of bed to go to a job I dislike to punish myself further.

I hate how much I hate myself. I hate that I am not prepared to do anything to change that. And I hate that I am so afraid that I prefer to live in misery rather than doing something to work toward happiness.

Do I hate me? Yes, I honestly believe that I do.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 09:02 PM
I believe you, Hold.

Except for hating how much you hate yourself.

I'm guessing you love hating yourself and believe that you're only hurting yourself with your self-hatred.

Do you think hating/punishment is a motivation tool gone awry?

I don't think your habit of hate is a mental illness. I think it's a habit of perspective, as you said, that you've had your whole life.

And the accompanying depression seems reasonable, as well.

I think you nailed it, too, that your hate comes from fear (which you hate, too).

And I have this undying belief in me that you, too, will change in the future, the fruits of your hate are fully visible to you, around you...when you see your children with the same habit of hate for themselves...which shocked me to see it so plainly during crisis in my sons. And they have it, too, Hold. Breaks my heart I passed that on...even though I stopped five years ago.

Seeing just how much my self-hate harmed those I deeply loved (under all my hard-crusted resentment)...and realizing I wanted them to NOT self-hate, to love themselves, even as I loved them...was what did it for me. It hasn't for you, yet.

I believe it will. Now, having shared that with you, I can better grasped how much God needs us to love ourselves, even as he loves us...to do otherwise breaks our relationship, impedes and does harm to it, with him.

Takes a lot of energy to punish yourself, your marriage, your wife...especially when being a nerd is no crime...no transgression. Of course, I prefer being a Geek, myself.

And I look forward to when you change your choice to hate habitually...when you know forgiveness for the unforgivable...

Until then, you know you're loved, anyway.

LA
Posted By: TheAntiChick Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 09:07 PM
Hold -

I'm just another faceless bunch of type on the 'net, but I want to offer something to you because whether you believe it or not right now, you deserve better from yourself. Take a chance on this, it's just a book. Go find a copy of The Feeling Good Handbook by David Burns -- Half Price Books (if they're in your area) usually has a copy.

Don't just *read* it. Work through it, one section at a time, and *do* the assignments.

You don't have anything to lose except the pain, and the power of your victimhood. Trust me, it's *much* better on this side of things.

TAC
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/03/09 10:06 PM
Last night D12 and I went over her science test. She got a 53. Had a 91 average before the test. So this will haunt her all year (or at least all marking period, not sure how that works).

She was careless. Also, she has a hard time dealing with (i) keeping decimal places and orders of magnitude clear in her head (ii) converting dry volume measures to liquid volume measures, and (iii) arithmetic. Especially the latter, since her "granola" elementary school program was very good at building self esteem and OK at teaching reading and writing but completely ignored memorizing the multiplication tables. So she doesn't immediately recognize that 16, 25 and 36 are "perfect squares". Or that 20 * 30 is 600 because 2 * 3 = 6 and you add 2 zeroes.

We spent hours focusing on always converting dry volume to cc or liquid volume to ml (since 1 cc = 1 ml), and then moving the decimal place as required to express the answer in whatever units were requested.

Afterward she was so proud of herself. And so happy to have spent the evening with dad. Even doing science homework. AT the end I got a thank you hug. I know I must rate if she enjoyed doing her science homework! I am loved.

And I am getting what I signed up for.
Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/04/09 12:56 AM
Hi, Hold. We've only corresponded a couple of times, but, I follow your sitch regularly. Just wanted to throw out a couple of ramblings.

I've seen you frequently state how much you hate yourself and for how long. I just have to ask: Why?

It seems to me you're a pretty decent guy. You certainly love your family. You work hard in a vocation where you're unhappy in order to provide for your household. I would say you're loyal to the point of your own detriment. You're not malicious, vengeant, or mean. You practice faith. You have great perseverance.

Personally, I believe you'd rather hurt yourself than hurt someone else. You actually care about others that much. At the very least, you maintain a pleasant demeanor because you don't want to manifest your unhappiness on those who are not the cause of it.

So, I've a notion that all this self-hate you carry is from:

1. Feeling guilty or ashamed that you're angry at someone who you believe you shouldn't have anger for.

2. Having anger that you know is reasonable, but you believe, either from experience or intuition, that expressing it dangerous.

3. Fear that if you start expressing your anger, you'll lose control and it will come out as an uncontrolled torrent, possibly with grave consequences.

Does any of that ring true?

One of my favorite sayings is:
"The definition of stress is having to restrain oneself from beating the crap out of someone who desperately deserves it."

I'm not saying we should go out and start pounding on people. But I am saying that chronically, acutely suppressing our feelings is detrimental to the point of being unhealthy.

I've lived these experiences and still do; I would bet you are, too.

Maybe we shouldn't be asking how to change ourselves, and we know better than to ask how to change others. Maybe the real questions should be:

1. How do we make peace with being angry at those we don't want to be angry with?

2. How can we properly express anger in situations where we believe it is dangerous to do so?

3. How can we express our anger and still maintain control of ourselves and our emotions?

If I can learn the answer to those questions, my life will improve by orders of magnitude. I'd bet yours would, too, Hold.

'Reckon that's about enough out of me for now.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/04/09 03:16 PM
COTF
Yes! Yes! Yes! That is it exactly! Excellent questions.

When you find the answers, please drop me a line.
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/04/09 08:53 PM
Shabbat Shalom, Hold!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/04/09 09:33 PM
Shabbat Shalom Mark.

Musical service tonight at our synagogue. Tomorrow night is bingo night. Should have a chance to be surrounded by warm feelings IRL.

Hope everyone has a healthy and fulfilling weekend.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/07/09 07:52 PM
Originally Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil
So, I've a notion that all this self-hate you carry is from:

1. Feeling guilty or ashamed that you're angry at someone who you believe you shouldn't have anger for.

2. Having anger that you know is reasonable, but you believe, either from experience or intuition, that expressing it dangerous.

3. Fear that if you start expressing your anger, you'll lose control and it will come out as an uncontrolled torrent, possibly with grave consequences.


1. I believe that this behavior roots from childhood. Perhaps he was feeling angry at someone and was made to feel bad about it.

But a child will create coping mechanism and behavior that shapes toward putting toxic shame on himself when he feels that anger, and suppresses that feeling so that he will be likable and lovable.

This coping mechanism prevails throughout his life because he does not know better, nor realize that "feeling angry" is ok, and he has a right to feel anything he wants. That is far different from the "actions" he does when he is feeling angry.

2. The second point pretty much supports that the learned coping mechanism. A child would not know the difference of feeling, expressing feeling, versus acting towards that feeling. An adult would.

3. I think that fear of losing control is a false belief. I think deeper in his psyche, if he expressed his anger, he is thinking that will make him a person not worthy of love and care. I think that psyche is of the child and that fears still lingers despite that fact that the adult logic can assess how he can control himself and not let his emotions run wild just by expressing he is angry.


Originally Posted By: chewing.on.tin.foil
1. How do we make peace with being angry at those we don't want to be angry with?

2. How can we properly express anger in situations where we believe it is dangerous to do so?

3. How can we express our anger and still maintain control of ourselves and our emotions?


1. How? By believing that you as a human have the right to "feel" what you are feeling. Feelings come and go. You can feel happy, or sad. And you can certainly feel mad.

Just look at the pre-school TV show "Ni Hao Kailan." My D4 asks, "Daddy are you happy, sad or mad?" It is ok to feel these.

2. The trepidation of losing control is a concern. That's why there is anger management specialists. But this fear should not be the inhibitor of expressing anger. Expressing anger can be done in productive ways. Saying it without really expecting a respond works. Yelling inside a car works. If you need further physical exertion, there's a gym.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 12:30 AM
Nice weekend. Services Friday and Sunday and bingo at the synagogue Saturday night. Mrs. Hold said "they like you there". I asked how she could tell. She said "body language and facial expression when they are near you". I thanked her for sharing since I am not confident in my "reads" of people.

I called several guys to help with a "men club" project next weekend. I was proud of myself for stepping out of my comfort zone to make the "ask" of guys I am not close to.

I had a chart with Mrs. Hold and am trying to feel good about some good things happening at work. Trying to fight my depression pessimism and negativity.

Sunday night we heard a radio advertisement about "adult" gifts. I told her it hurt me to hear the ad since that stuff is not part of our life. I said my head is messed up and I am not prepared to deal with our sex life but it hurts that it is unsatisfying. She got angry and said "but I tried so hard to make the last time good for you". I replied "yes, it was. I liked how you stroked me all over my body. I liked the way you were caring and not cruel about my performance. But I feel we still have issues to resolve." We sat in silence the rest of the car ride.

This morning I did some more drive by honesty: "it hurts me that after all these years you seem prepared to deal with the sex issue now, and I am no longer able to do so." Then walked away.

I am angry with myself for being such a mess and not able to get out of my own way. But I am trying not to let it get me even more depressed.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 12:54 AM
MRS HOLD RUINED your sex life, being cruel about performance for years took your balls off, she is a heinous human being the most heinouse, to ruin your emotions and sexuakte abilities like that. Can you see that she is the cause of your difficulties in bed? Had she been encouraging loving and fun all these years and also a willing happy lover, you would now have a wonderful sex life. She ruined your sexuality totally, I deeply dislike her for it,

1. She ruined your financial life
2. She ruined your sexuality
3. She ruined your emotions
4. She ruined your trust in women
5. She ruined your entire life

What a creep she seems to be to me. she should be put in prison for what she did to you.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 02:43 PM
She is not heinous. She is a complex beautiful and flawed person, as are we all. She has had a traumatic past which makes it difficult for her to relate to me in the way I desire. That doesn't make her heinous. Just makes her human.

In a way, she and I already are in prison. What she and I need is to be released.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 06:51 PM
I don't believe your wife is flawed or heinous, Hold.

I think she's acted despicably, as have I. And I'm still loved. So is she.

And she stopped acting in heinous ways.

I believe we are not flawed because our very weaknesses serve us, as do our strengths...and each other. Again, nothing to an extreme...

Guess that negates my belief, eh? When we choose an extreme perspective or perception, then that's our flaw?

Not a condition...a choice.

I wonder when you'll release yourself from creating and maintaining your self-hatred...

what would that take, Hold? What would you need to think, believe or feel in order to stop doing yourself and others harm?

When I asked myself that question...I had to figure out my boundary through deductive reasoning...

Belief: Good people do not do harm.
Belief: Humans do harm.
Therefore: Good people are not human.

Wasn't really working for me...and after breaking it down, I could see why.

Belief: I was a bad person, hence, I did harm.

Least I was human.

smile

What's yours, Hold? What's your purpose on this earth? What were you made to do?

To self-hate? To feel and act from hate? Does your self-image appear to be self-hating to others? Strangers? Acquaintances? your children? Your spouse?

What was your traumatic past which makes it difficult for you to love yourself in the way you desire?

LA
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 06:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
MRS HOLD RUINED your sex life, being cruel about performance for years took your balls off, she is a heinous human being the most heinouse, to ruin your emotions and sexuakte abilities like that. Can you see that she is the cause of your difficulties in bed? Had she been encouraging loving and fun all these years and also a willing happy lover, you would now have a wonderful sex life. She ruined your sexuality totally, I deeply dislike her for it,

1. She ruined your financial life
2. She ruined your sexuality
3. She ruined your emotions
4. She ruined your trust in women
5. She ruined your entire life

What a creep she seems to be to me. she should be put in prison for what she did to you.


I disagree. She may be part of those things, but Hold himself has the ultimate control of his life. He let those things happen, or did little to correct them. He continued to be in the marriage because something is more to him than those.

The flaw in the MB principles is that it requires both person to build on the marriage at the same time. And when there is no effort or progress from both, there is Plan B and D which requires the person making that decision to make changes and actions take upon for himself/herself.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 07:03 PM
jm,

I disagree, he stayed because he had responsibilities. I am in the same boat as holding and I can tell you that my responsibility to raise healthy productive kids is more important. To say that he stayed because something in his M was more important than sex is shortsided. A selfish person would have left his kids and wife to find a more sexually fulfilling M, but that is not what a responsible father does.

In my situation I would have not married my wife knowing we would have gone through what we are going through. I would have found someone else and explained that sex is a priority to me in a M. I do believe my wife and I had this discussion and it wasn't an issue with her, she couldn't imagine refusing me nightly for years, then months, then to the point where I just didn't initiate. My wife and I were like rabbits. Is this normal? Maybe, but I wasn't striving for a normal M, and normal would be divorce now-a-days for selfish reasons.

IMO it's noble for a man to stay with his wife and family, atleast until the family is raised.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 07:22 PM
Quote:
He continued to be in the marriage because something is more to him than those.


Quote:
I am in the same boat as holding and I can tell you that my responsibility to raise healthy productive kids is more important.


I don't see how these two statements disagree.

Quote:
To say that he stayed because something in his M was more important than sex is shortsided.


I don't think this is what JM said. He said he stayed in the M because something was more important, not he stayed because something in the M was more important than sex". Wow, amazing how changing the location of one phrase changes the meaning!

Quote:
A selfish person would have left his kids and wife to find a more sexually fulfilling M, but that is not what a responsible father does.


And, so, that responsible father stays in the M because his role as a father is more important to him. I think that doesn't disagree with what JM said.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 07:52 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
I wonder when you'll release yourself from creating and maintaining your self-hatred...


I too wonder.

Quote:
What's yours, Hold? What's your purpose on this earth? What were you made to do? To self-hate?


Seems to be. I have been this way as far back as I can remember. Certainly back to kindergarten.

Quote:
Does your self-image appear to be self-hating to others? Strangers? Acquaintances? your children? Your spouse?


Interesting. Yes, it certainly does to Mrs. Hold. She sees the self-hating me. The real me. My parents? I think they try to avoid seeing it because it pains them. My kids? Not clear if they allow themselves to admit what they see. Everyone else? Probably does not occur to them that I am so self-hating but it would explain various inconsistencies if someone suggested it to them.

Quote:
What was your traumatic past which makes it difficult for you to love yourself in the way you desire?


No idea. I have been this way as far back as I am conscious. Certainly it was deeply ingrained by age 5. Whether genetics or life experience, no way for me to say. Probably a large helping of both. Genetic predisposition plus nurture in a shame-based culture.

As for the other comments, you guys are correct that this is my choice. My decision to stay married. My decision not to have firmer boundaries. My decision not to Plan B. I am getting what I signed up for.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 10:35 PM
And your decision to self-hate, too.

Agreed.

You describe it as a condition, when it's a choice. A choice continually made, so automatic, you experience it like a condition.

And all the while...in your basement somewhere...is a book...which was written by a man, out of love and care for other humans, and himself, to help you find your way to answers, to solve your reasons for self-hating, and to love your way to thriving.

And you just won't choose to go downstairs and find it.

Makes sense. Which is why the first step in Alanon is to admit one is powerless and their life unmanageable. When you get to that point, you'll find that book in your collection...in a stack to the side, under something else, maybe. And you will change your choices, your marriage, your parenting and your life.

Because you went to the basement and read something someone wrote from love. After all, you read all these posts for these years on MB...also written from one human to another, from love. Just as you have posted to others from love and respect.

Maybe you don't self-hate as much as you choose to believe...you have accepted these hundreds of posts...written with care and consideration.

Hmmm.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 10:58 PM
LA:

I went downstairs. Found the book. Read a little. Saw some of the exercises. Which required me to remember good feelings.

And I put the book down. And walked away. I chose to lie to myself. To continue the lie. That I do not have any good feelings to remember. That this won't work for me because it assumes the presence of life experiences I never had. Which is another lie. They are few and far between. But they exist.

Perhaps some day I will choose differently. Stop lying. And do the hard, painful work to heal. Maybe some day. But not today.

Today, I will yet again wallow in self pity. And choose the comfortable familiar pain. Over the terrifying unknown of change.

Today, I will continue to lie to my children. Continue to send the strong message that their love is not enough. That the good times and good feelings we seem to share are not real.

And I will continue to lie to my wife. The multiple embedded lies. That I love her. That I don't. That she isn't enough. That she is. That her alleged deficiencies don't matter. That they do. That I am so withdrawn that she can't affect me. That she is so powerful that she can.

And I will lie to myself. That there is no cure for how I feel. Or that I am not capable of implementing the cure.

I am awash in love. And yet I tell myself that I am both unlovable and unloved. Both lies. Both my most cherished and closely held inner truths. I wonder if I will ever let go and accept that perhaps these truths I hold so dear are not self-evident. Perhaps it is finally becoming clear what I hold onto so desperately.

And you all thought it was just a bad double entendre. wink
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 11:33 PM
What if the work isn't hard or painful?

What if it's freeing, fulfilling, amazing?

The unknown is just that--unknown. We can manipulate it to seem hard, difficult, painful or leave it in truth--unknown until we get there.

I'm asking you to choose to go there. And you're saying, "No, don't want to experience the unknown."

And yet, you're good at it...you do unknown every day...because in reality, you experience it each and every day...every new day is unknown...and then you live it.

So, Marge, you're soaking in it.

Thank you for explaining about the good feelings when you read the book...because that was my experience, my DH's experience, as well as others I know and those on MB...that this wasn't a pain-filled, hardwork book...it truly was a relief, full of good feelings (after the multiple shocks from epiphanies)...

Thank you for going down those stairs. Would you consider going down and picking it up, carrying it upstairs to your nightstand...so it won't be lonely down there?

smile

Which is an alternative...you can do for others what you aren't willing to do consciously for yourself...do it for the book. The book is lonely, wants to be read, wants to communicate...I know you...you'll listen for the sake of the book.

What if your rage inside, that deep anger turned inward, is because of your severe and continuing mistreatment of yourself? Like anger of injustice?

I don't think you wallow well, btw. To me, more like you try it on like a new suit, wiggle around and take it off.

ROFLMAO on the double entendre. I can't believe you don't deeply love and appreciate your humor---self-amusement is really under-rated, IMO. Your persistence.

Thank you very much, bottom of my heart, for responding to my posts to you. I am still loving myself back from the place you have been in...because I, too, sometimes try on that suit.

(your suit doesn't suit you)

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 11:49 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Thank you for explaining about the good feelings when you read the book...because that was my experience, my DH's experience, as well as others I know and those on MB...that this wasn't a pain-filled, hardwork book...it truly was a relief, full of good feelings (after the multiple shocks from epiphanies)...


I did not communicate well. I did NOT get good feelings when reading the book. Quite the opposite. The book triggered many negative feelings. That is why I put it down.

The book asked me to remember some time when I felt good feelings. And I refused to do so. I rejected the book. Lied to myself. Told myself there were no good times and no good feelings to remember. Then I walked away from the book.

If I am going to pick up the book again, I need to be willing to embrace the good times and the good memories and the good feelings. But I cannot do that. Because doing that would require me to let go of the "inner truth" that I am unloved and unlovable. Doing that would require me to admit that there have been good times and good feelings. It would require me to let the good feelings in. Past my moats and walls. And that I will not do.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/08/09 11:49 PM
Originally Posted By: themud
jm,

I disagree, he stayed because he had responsibilities. I am in the same boat as holding and I can tell you that my responsibility to raise healthy productive kids is more important. To say that he stayed because something in his M was more important than sex is shortsided. A selfish person would have left his kids and wife to find a more sexually fulfilling M, but that is not what a responsible father does.

In my situation I would have not married my wife knowing we would have gone through what we are going through. I would have found someone else and explained that sex is a priority to me in a M. I do believe my wife and I had this discussion and it wasn't an issue with her, she couldn't imagine refusing me nightly for years, then months, then to the point where I just didn't initiate. My wife and I were like rabbits. Is this normal? Maybe, but I wasn't striving for a normal M, and normal would be divorce now-a-days for selfish reasons.

IMO it's noble for a man to stay with his wife and family, atleast until the family is raised.


Oh, believe me, I was in a very similar situation as Hold dating back, what 2002?

I've posted here almost every day, and mainly focused on the lack of sex, or unmet SF.

All I am saying is understand what MB principle is about. It takes 2 to make the marriage work. And if 1 spouse is not willing, then it is up to the other spouse to look at himself/herself and make decisions.

Making a decision, at least for me leads to seeking further knowledge. And one of the very first "a ha" moments I learned here is that "I can only change myself, and I should only change myself for the reason of wanting that change for myself" --not to change for my spouse, not to change "expecting" it will change my spouse. I can change me, and can only hope my spouse choose to change herself.

Hold has thought out and even discussed divorce with his wife. I'm sure I read some of his post on that thought.

In my case, it was around the end of 2006 when we were in IC/MC when we were discussing separation and D. By 2007, I decided / realize / believe that my marriage exist because I still choose to be in the marriage; likewise, she is choosing to be married to me. The talk of D was a waste because we both know that if the marriage dies, it leads to a D.

It was also my own struggle to put weight and value to sex. Believe me, I was at some point in the belief that sex without marriage is not a marriage. I've wandered off MB and found other sources of knowledge along the way.

Here's another fact:
A marriage can exist with sex.
A marriage can exist without sex.
Sex can happen in marriage.
Sex can happen without marriage.

My point is, sex is just ONE factor of the marriage. I thought long about my values and beliefs, and my marriage have many other values I want in my life. Sex is just ONE.

That said, I found another source from No More Mr Nice Guy (NMMNG) by Glover. One other "a ha" moment for me that took a while to accept was something like this: "I am the only person in the world who is responsible for meeting my needs."

That sounded contradictory to MB. But looking at it this way, if I can meet all my needs, then I am a whole person and do not need anyone in my life.

My Marriage is now shaped by what I put into, plus what she puts into. Likewise, my wife has her own marriage defined by what she puts into.

The NMMNG also covers a few principles that MB has touched upon. Love Buster is the same as passive-aggressive behaviors. The "no expectations" is similar to "hidden contracts."

Anyway, I think one difference in my approach from Hold is that I began to accept myself just the way I am, human, male with needs, where sex is a natural need and it is not shameful, with flaws, and worthy of love and care.

I was in some period of time where I withdraw and spiral into some depressing pit that just generates resentment. I've become more aware when my mind set goes in that thinking pattern, and instead I do things to promote positives in my life be it family, health, diet, and personal growth.

Reading Hold's posts does not seem he had changed in how he thinks of himself, a victim trapped. Hold is intelligent and can find answers, but he needs to take the risk to overcome what trepidations he has to enforce his personal boundaries so that he leads a life he wants.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 12:01 AM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
The book asked me to remember some time when I felt good feelings. And I refused to do so. I rejected the book. Lied to myself. Told myself there were no good times and no good feelings to remember. Then I walked away from the book.


I don't know what book you're referring to.

Curious tho, was there a childhood memory where you were told "bad boy" or some such which the child in you translate that you are a bad person for who you are, therefore not worthy of love, respect, care, etc?

And do you think such child would develop some coping mechanism to want to be loved and change his behavior to conform to get that love, even when that child is doing actions against his personality?

The NMMNG had one section about this, and I remember a question posed to me. You're an adult now, with the power and control of your life, what will you say to the child? Do you think that child should be explained that the his behaviors were not appropriate, and that he is worthy to be loved because he is unique and his person is a gift to the world. And that he is human like everyone that can make mistakes, and it is natural to make mistakes, and he is intelligent to learn from those mistakes. I would tell that child to live a life of his own choosing because he is ok just being himself.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 12:06 AM
**edit**
Posted By: nams Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 12:43 AM
Wow, Bubbles, I'm having a hard time understanding how your words might be helpful.

Agree, disagree with holds' approach to his marriage and life but attacking the kids? I can't imagine that would motivate anyone to listen to you.

Hold appears to be an intelligent man with a very low opinion of himself, the inability to get out of his own way, and his emotional capacity to change at zero. Be that as it may, displaying tact and kindness probably wouldn't hurt you.

Your tough love approach can come of as just meanness.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 12:59 AM
It is not the kids fault they are this way. It is due to the dysfunctional marriage. I really feel sorry for the kids. they do not deserve any of it. I especially worried about the boy. He was ready to off himself in the past.

I know I said it the wrong way. What I meant was: These kids are hurting and having problems, please get them some help and work out your marriage so the kids will feel better and not act out the tension in the home in various destructive ways.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 02:16 PM
Bubbles:

Thank you for your concern. I know you care about me and I care about you.

My kids are actually doing great. Puberty has been very kind to D12 and although she is still slightly overweight not nearly so much as several years ago. Basically her weight has stayed the same but moved to different places and she grew a couple of inches. So a much better ratio. She is quite popular socially and beyond her school friends is part of a tight knit community on her swim team.

S15 is also doing very well. He made the freshmen soccer and basketball teams. He has friends and goes to parties. His phone and computer receive a non-stop stream of messages. Yesterday he told Mrs. Hold "I want to do well in high school so I can go to a good college and get a good job so I can afford a nice place to live when I grow up". No more talk of "I wish I never existed".

Both kids do great in school. D12 has slumped slightly from her straight A average last marking period but is still doing very well and seems motivated to work harder going forward. S15 is doing honors level 10th grade math in 9th grade, and both his Mandarin and Spanish teachers say he has a gift for languages.

Mrs. Hold and I are very blessed in our children. And so far our parenting seems to be working for them. I am NOT going to rock this boat. The least likely outcome is that I become significantly more satisfied with my life. The terrifyingly likely outcome is that it throws one or both of my kids off their current successful path.

I appreciate your supportive thoughts on my behalf. Rest assured that I am making a conscious choice here. Might not be the choice that others would make for me. But for now I am determined to remain on this course. Bashing my wife does not motivate me to take different action. It just makes me more depressed about the parts of my situation I have no intention of changing.

The area where I need motivation is around work. I once again through God's grace find myself in a position with some interesting possibilities. I need to take advantage of them. So if you are going to "yell", please don't yell at Mrs. Hold. Yell at me. Because things will be much easier for me and the kids if I succeed at work.

Thanks again for your love. Now show me some tough love and kick my butt to write the memos that need to get out today! wink
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 02:21 PM
Hold,

Write the d*mn memo's. You can probably have them done by lunch.

Set a timer if you need to (I will work on these for one hour), and then take a break.

Report back here during that break and let us know how it is going.

Don't let yourself get distracted by trying to repress feelings of excitement.

Just focus on it--let other things wait till the end of the day if you have to.

Make the memo's happen!
Posted By: Lucks Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 02:25 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
LA:

I went downstairs. Found the book. Read a little. Saw some of the exercises. Which required me to remember good feelings.

And I put the book down. And walked away. I chose to lie to myself. To continue the lie. That I do not have any good feelings to remember. That this won't work for me because it assumes the presence of life experiences I never had. Which is another lie. They are few and far between. But they exist.

Perhaps some day I will choose differently. Stop lying. And do the hard, painful work to heal. Maybe some day. But not today.

Today, I will yet again wallow in self pity. And choose the comfortable familiar pain. Over the terrifying unknown of change.

Today, I will continue to lie to my children. Continue to send the strong message that their love is not enough. That the good times and good feelings we seem to share are not real.

And I will continue to lie to my wife. The multiple embedded lies. That I love her. That I don't. That she isn't enough. That she is. That her alleged deficiencies don't matter. That they do. That I am so withdrawn that she can't affect me. That she is so powerful that she can.

And I will lie to myself. That there is no cure for how I feel. Or that I am not capable of implementing the cure.

I am awash in love. And yet I tell myself that I am both unlovable and unloved. Both lies. Both my most cherished and closely held inner truths. I wonder if I will ever let go and accept that perhaps these truths I hold so dear are not self-evident. Perhaps it is finally becoming clear what I hold onto so desperately.

And you all thought it was just a bad double entendre. wink


Hi Hold! Merry almost Christmas/Happy Hanukkah.

This may seem like a weird comment, and indeed it may be, but...your post above reminds me of a recent novel I read on my Kindle. It was free, I may have passed by it otherwise. It was about a young woman in a town, emotionally and physically abused, thus diseased and perhaps possessed who seemed to be the crux of all the bad things happening. Shot off into the horror genre...but, point I'm trying to make...although the writing was intelligent and laced appropriately with feelings, it went too far into poetic wishy-washiness. "Suddenly, she clearly saw it all. [for the 200th time in the story] She was the beginning. She was the end. It was the same. It was so very different. She really saw. And still, she saw nothing. It had been her all along. It had never been her." Through the entire story, I was like, so make up your mind already!

smile
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 04:30 PM
Oh how do I recognize the desire to procrastinate writing memos/letters/papers/reports/etc!

For me, the reason for putting it off is because I think I'm still "thinking about it" and I don't have it perfect yet.

But being late/not doing it at all is worse.

Flylady says you can do anything for 15 minutes. Set a timer on your computer, phone, whatever; and spend 15 minutes writing as many rough drafts as possible. They don't have to be perfect. When the 15 minutes is up, take a break; then in an hour, or later today, or whenever you think best, spend another 15 minutes editing the drafts. Then send them, or at least start sending some of them.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 05:12 PM
One memo out the door. Important phone call completed. Meeting scheduled for Friday to pitch decent sized piece of business. Productive morning. Off to lunch meeting!
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 05:15 PM
Yay!
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 05:17 PM
Glad the kids are doing better!
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/09/09 05:20 PM
smile Hold...I do best under a little bit of pressure. I second the whole timer thing. It may seem really silly, but dang, it works. It really does. And then, of course...you need to reward yourself when you've done it a few times each day. LOL Latte, lunch out, brisk walk, or whatever makes you feel good.

Another successful thing I did when working was draw a horizontal line across each day on my desk calendar, with the top being for a.m. and the bottom being for p.m. Then I'd fill each half with a few things that needed to be done before and after lunch. That seemed to help me to some degree.

I personally favor the timer, though. I'd be lost without mine.

Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/11/09 11:45 PM
Shabbat Shalom and happyhanukkah Hold!
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/12/09 01:15 PM
Happy Hanukkah, Hold. smile I hope the holiday brings you some peace and happiness with your family.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 02:07 AM
Lit candles together all 3 nights so far. Went to services this morning with D12. Then got a bunch of guys to serve potato pancakes to the kids at the religious school. So the religious stuff is going well. And I am proud that I pulled together a bunch of guys I don't know that well.

Went shopping with Mrs. Hold yesterday. Tried to assist her in cooking dinner tonight. Both very strained. We never worked well together on same task. Getting worse over time. We now pretty much have to work parallel rather than together because together doesn't work. Still, getting what I signed up for. She wants more verbal and emotional togetherness and interaction. I actively resist that. Can't complain when she is then testy. Not helpful. But not unexpected.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 02:20 PM
I may have to dial back on the withdrawal. Too much tension with Mrs. Hold. Has to cut into the kids.

I guess I will have to keep telling myself that she is a good person and I love her rather than counting the days.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 02:35 PM
Hold...gotta tell you that it feels to me that you've taken on a bit of a sadistic role in this. Punishing her, not forgiving her, and hurting yourself in the process. Just saying.

You wanted her to lose the weight. She did. Didn't change your attraction to her, apparently.

You want her to get a job to help with the credit card bills. She hasn't. That continues to be an issue. What changes between you and her if she does this?

Are you a moving target, Hold? Are you one of those people that frustrate your spouse because you're so hard to please?

What incentive would Mrs. H have right now to stay in the marriage if it were just the two of you? You seem to dwell a lot over your own incentives. What are hers? You don't have to answer me. It's just something to think about.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 02:48 PM
I wonder what would happen if Mrs. Hold came up to hold and said "I'm so sorry for having hurt you. I neglected you and made you feel like what you wanted wasn't important. I did not treat you well and I was wrong.

I want to make it up to you. If you can open your heart to me, I want us to be happy together--and that includes your dreams for a loving sexual relationship"

I think Hold might still feel nothing for a good long while, but if she followed it up (consistently and over time) to show him that she meant what she said, and she pursued him for enjoyable SF--as well as doing all the other nice things that are important to each of htem...

Then HOld would open back up to her again, and could be happy with her.

It would take her a lot more time and effort now than it would have, say, 8 years ago! But I think it's doable. Because Hold wants to be loved. He just has stopped letting himself feel that longing because it is more painful than being numb.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
Are you a moving target, Hold? Are you one of those people that frustrate your spouse because you're so hard to please?


For many years I was not a moving target. I told her what I needed. She was unable to address my needs.

Now? Who knows? The ED has really shaken me. I used to say "what would it take for me to forgive you? Sex every day for 30 days, or every week for 6 months." Now, I would definitely not be able to have sex every day for 30 days and might not be able to have sex once a week. Heck, these days I can't have intercourse at all. What would it take for me to forgive her now? I am not sure there is anything, since I am not capable of participating in what would help. I am so messed up in my head I am not sure whether her providing more sex would help or would bother me.

Quote:
What incentive would Mrs. H have right now to stay in the marriage if it were just the two of you? You seem to dwell a lot over your own incentives. What are hers? You don't have to answer me. It's just something to think about.


If I were her, I would not want to stay married to me except for the finances and the kids. Not a happy place for her to be. If you asked "should she be in love with you, given how you treat her and think about her?" I would have to say "no". Does that bother me? Yes. Am I planning to do anything to change it? No. Am I cutting off my nose to spite my face? Yes, of course I am. And I expect to continue doing so. That is why I am such a mess, and continue posting here to no avail. The only rational part of me is the part that feels bad about knowing that I intend to continue bashing my head against a brick wall.

The question is whether Telly is correct. Suppose Mrs. Hold apologized. Supposed she tried to meet my needs. Would my heart soften? Would I forgive her (and myself)? Would I work to implement the MB system and build a happy marriage (not rebuild - we never had anything that was happy for me after the wedding)? I honestly don't know.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:20 PM
The MRS needs to put her money where her mouth is. She has manipulated you for 14 years now. I would like to see her realize what stealing your retirement money has meant to you. And to get a full time job, give ALL the income to you to pay back debt and restore your retirement account. That would maybe take 7 years. During those 7 years, you could decide to like her again.

Perhaps you love her, but you do not like her much. That always causes a conflict.


1. You love her in a deep way and as mother of your kids
2. You dislike her most days
3. You do not trust her
4. You cannot trust her with your emotions
5. You cannot trust her STILL with finances
6. You cannot trust her to save money
7. You cannot trust her with your sexuality
8. You cannot trust her to support you in any way
9. YOu cannot even trust her not to disparage you in public
10. yOu cannot trust her to respect you
11. you cannot trust her to be a spiritual equal
12. You cannot trust the woman with anything
13. You cannot trust her to get a job and help out.
14. You cannot trust her not to lay demand after demand on you

You are but a convienient meal ticket for her. It is a sad waste. And you think this is YOUR PROBLEM or YOUR FAULT?????

Wow.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:23 PM
HOLD, in your younger years, before you knew what the MRS was truly like, you could have banged her and not worried if you liked her or trusted her or could ever trust her or if she would steal you blind if she got her paws on any money.

But now, it is more crucial to be able to LIKE and TRUST a woman before WANTING to have sex with her. This is more important to you than the act itself.

Having sex with someone you neither like nor trust......is tough. It would be impossible for me to have sex with someone I could not trust and whom I did not like.

It would be impossible for me to have sex with a spouse who uses me over and over and cares very very little about ME.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:26 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
14. You cannot trust her not to lay demand after demand on you


Yesterday Mrs. Hold spent the afternoon researching summer enrichment programs for S15. She showed me one from NYU and one from Columbia. I think thay cost about $5000 for 3 weeks of programming. Given what it costs to attend college there, may or may not be a "good deal" based on time spent. But that doesn't matter, because we don't have the $5000. And somehow I feel guilty that I cannot afford to provide this for S15. He is already spending a week at a science camp in Bermuda that is stretching our budget.

WTH is wrong with me that I cannot simply say "I would love to provide that to S15, but we can't afford it. So we will have to find something less expensive." ARGH, I am such a wimpy loser!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:31 PM
Right hold, you are a loser for wanting to provide extras for your son. That makes you a LOSER?!

I would suspect that MOST men feel badly when their wife asks them about something they can't afford.

She shouldn't even be asking. You make a good living and you provide well for your family.

THe rest of what you hear in your head are LIES.

Can you focus on something positive today--something you can take some action on? How did the memo's etc go last week? What's on the agenda for this week?
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:34 PM
I think thay cost about $5000 for 3 weeks of programming. Given what it costs to attend college there, may or may not be a "good deal" based on time spent. But that doesn't matter, because we don't have the $5000. And somehow I feel guilty that I cannot afford to provide this for S15. He is already spending a week at a science camp in Bermuda that is stretching our budget.

Your wife was an accountant!!! For goodness sakes does she not know how much money you two have available? There is a little bean game you should get her that shows CHILDREN how much money is available for things in a household.

When she brings this up, show her the budget and ask her if she is willing to work for 1/3 of a year at a job to pay for it. I bet she says NO.

Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:38 PM
http://extension.usu.edu/utah/files/uploads/Finance/THE%20BEAN%20GAME.pdf

HOLD, I think you need to take the position that "your wife does not understand budgeting and has never learned how to manage money" and you need to teach her at the kitchen table. Use BEANS instead of actual money to show her that MONEY IS LIMITED!!!!

I am so enraged by a woman who sits around and wont work and continues to act as if you have unlimited funds. Do you pretend you have unlimited funds to be more attractive to her or something? How could she be so dense??? Are you hiding the budget from her????? I am enraged.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
HOLD, in your younger years, before you knew what the MRS was truly like, you could have banged her and not worried if you liked her or trusted her


No. I could not have. That is part of the tragedy here. I was never that kind of guy. Once I realized a woman was not "the one", I was uncomfortable having sex with her. That is one aspect of my lack of pre-marital sexual experience.

To that extent, I was similar to someone who was "saving themselves" for marriage. Which makes the lack of sex in our marriage all the more painful.

In a wierd way, I think I could more easily have "no strings" sex today. Today, I feel the younger me was stupid and naive and idealistic. Today, I would grab that guy by the throat and shake him back and forth and scream "you idiot, what are you waiting for? get out there and get some!" I don't like the me I was then. And I don't like the me I am now. What a waste.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:42 PM
Well, sex is not everything. Being able to love, trust, and like your spouse is really important to your well being. Sex comes a distant fourth to all that.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
Well, sex is not everything. Being able to love, trust, and like your spouse is really important to your well being. Sex comes a distant fourth to all that.


It has been a long time since I trusted my spouse. Wow, in February it will be 10 years since "the discovery". That is a long time to sleep next to someone you don't trust.
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 03:58 PM
Hold, I can relate. A university down here emailed us that DD13 qualified from her state testing scores to take the SAT to qualify for a summer program there. She took is and got a great score, and was eligible, but we didn't send her there. She wanted to go to acting camp, so we sent her to that instead. Because we can't afford everything. It was a family decision we were all enthusiastic about.

What do you think about looking at this as a family decision? I used to also ask H if we could afford stuff, instead of talking through the decision together. I made a mistake, but I can make amends by doing it differently today. I think if you as a family looked at this, you would likely come to the same decision, that he'd prefer to do the Bermuda program.

One day's actions don't define you, make you some wimpy loser or something. You are so special, Hold, made with a purpose. When your actions and values don't line up, you felt pain. All that makes you is human, right? What is an action you could take today that would line up with your values? Did you ever read that You Don't Have To Take It Anymore by Steven Stosny? He encourages you to come up with a list, and males some suggestions, and one is to watch your kids sleep, how's that for something to bring you peace, to reconnect you with what you are doing daily that does go with your values?

I know that whole self-flagellation thing is familiar, but I don't think that's the only way to get relief from feeling in pain.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 04:22 PM
Hold...just a thought, but is there any chance that your son could actually work at the camp but still gain something from it?

You may have to sit your wife down and ask her not to even bring certain things up because you cannot afford it, but also because it makes you feel badly. Tell her that when she gets a job, perhaps these are the sorts of things her salary could go towards after the credit card balance is paid off.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 04:24 PM
Hold,

Why don't you say...

"MrsHold, I know you researched this and believe it may be something you really want for DS this summer. I know you know our budget cannot affor it and that you can earn the money to pay for it. I support you in achieving this for our family."

Would you consider adding...

"I am continually perplexed when you bring something to me, like this, knowing it is outside the scope of what we can do. Feels to me like you want me to feel like a failure, to feel bad, knowing I want you and DS to be happy and successful."

And this is me, believing you like MrsHold to feel delighted...that it pleases you when she does. That's what I believe of you. Within moments, I think you resent her feeling happy...doesn't take away the initial pleasure for you.

LA
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 04:25 PM
From my point of view, without trust, you have no relationship. In order to live with a woman you knew you could not trust....just think what you had to do to YOURSELF and YOUR OWN JUDGEMENT....in order to continue on with her.

I could not live with a man I could not trust. It would emotionally and spiritually kill me little by little. The sad part is, MRS HOLD has had chances to prove she is now trustworthy.

1. She could prove to you she does not look to spend beyond the budget ever.

2. She could get a job and pay your accounts back that she stole from

3. She could save money by cleaning her own house

4. She could refrain from blowing the budget every chance she gets as if it means NOTHING

5. She could use her skills as an accountant to make up a detailed family budget and stick to it.

Any and all of these things could have and would have told you that she was "now trustworthy" and then you could have begun to trust her again. But NO. She did not do ANYTHING that would cause you to deem her trustworthy. She simply...can NOT be trusted. And you KNOW THIS. And you still have to live with her. And it probably kills you inside.

Not being able to trust your spouse would be heinous. A destructive and heinous position to be in. The fact that you are living with an untrustworthy person would make you feel bad about yourself and most everything else. Every day would seem bad. Living with such a person.

She may as well have had an affair on you for as much damage as she has done to your trust.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 04:44 PM
HOLD things could be tearing you up inside. No wonder you are not very happy.

1. You feel you must stay with an untrustworthy spouse
2. Your wife PRETENDS you have $$$ to spend on expensive stuff
3. Your wife you live with does not care to help support the family.
4. Your wife does not care for you yet you must support her
5. You love the kids and the wife comes with them.
6. You love your wife but cant trust her and do not like her.
7. You cannot enjoy being around a person you cannot trust.
8. She lies to you, to herself, and to others around her.
9. She is an accountant who refuses to stick to a budget
10. She does not help look out for you or the family..financially
11. She is often mean to you
12. She is rude to you
13. She is diseased with herpes
14. She is a human leech
15. She offers nearly nothing to you
16. She does not give anything but expects you to sacrifice everything including your own mental and physical health.

I dislike your wife so much for her selfish behavior. I could not live with such a person.

I would have anxiety attacks since my inner being would be constantly screaming at me to "get away from this person! NOW!"
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 05:28 PM
Last year S15 went to summer school in the mornings from 8 to noon. Then he hung out with his friends in the afternoon. Mrs. Hold does not see that as sufficiently enriching. I have no problem with that sort of schedule for the coming summer. S15 has complained his "college prep track" academic requirements are so extensive he cannot take many electives. If he took an English or history class over the summer, that would open up a couple of slots for him to take culinary arts (the HS has a full commercial kitchen as a classroom), auto shop, etc. during the school year.

Also, our town bought a bankrupt country club last fall to prevent it from falling into disrepair. They are offering town residents family pool and tennis memberships for $1400. If we got that, all 4 of us could use the facilities for the entire summer. Seems to me a much better deal (although much less exotic) than spending $5000 on 3 weeks for S15 and then having done nothing for D12 (or ME - yikes, did I just mention my needs should be considered too?).

Or maybe S15 has ideas of his own. Maybe he could get a job as a CIT or counsellor at a local day camp. It is not easy to sell "hold the hands of a bunch of 8 year olds" when your mother is offering "spend 3 weeks in NYC living in a college dorm".

I am not suggesting the kids sit home and stew in their juices all summer. But I am not enthusiastic about spending $5000 to cover only a portion of the summer for one child. Now the question is, what am I willing to do about my lack of enthusiasm. Wish me luck in the coming argument!

LA, it has been so long since Mrs. Hold felt delighted about anything involving me. I don't know how I would feel if she expressed delight. I used to like it. Now? I might only resent it. Hard to tell. I have given up even trying to prompt her delight. I don't believe I can accomplish that often enough to be worth the effort. Moreover, I would feel bad about prompting her delight if there were no reciprocation. I would not take delight in her delight. I would feel foolish.

I would like to be in a marriage where I did take delight in my wife's delight. I would like to be in a marriage where I was motivated to work toward prompting my wife's delight. I do not believe I will ever be in that kind of marriage with Mrs. Hold. The only question in my mind is whether I am capable of finding someone else who is interested in creating such a marriage with me. Which would rquire me to become a person worthy of such a marriage. I am not that person today. And I do not belive I will attempt to become such a person while I remain married to Mrs. Hold. As Soolee said, I get too much secondary benefit from punishing Mrs. Hold. That "benefit", albeit small and warped, is assured. I don't see myself choosing to pursue the much riskier path of attempting to achieve happiness.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:00 PM
"I am continually perplexed when you bring something to me, like this, knowing it is outside the scope of what we can do. Feels to me like you want me to feel like a failure, to feel bad, knowing I want you and DS to be happy and successful."

For some reason, I don't think it's that she necessarily wants him to feel like a failure. I think she's really disconnected and not 'getting' the extent of the damage she did with the spending. She doesn't 'get' that he's waiting for her to take steps to help rectify it. She's sort of glossing over it in her mind, almost like she doesn't believe him - doesn't believe that what she did was all that bad...

One thing that could possibly be part of that is if Hold is keeping the bill paying, balance knowledge, cc balances, etc. apart from Mrs. Hold and not showing her the numbers monthly. Could be he isn't explaining to Mrs. Hold just how much they need in the bank before he can retire and how long that will take or before the son starts college, or before a home renovation can take place - things like that.

If you're not being open and honest on a monthly basis about the finances, she may be assuming the finances are better than you say they are. Perhaps if she saw the actual numbers regularly she would realize how ridiculous it would be to approach you for more money.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:18 PM
She has seen the numbers. She wishes they were different. She behaves as if her wishes were reality. When she ran our finances, she spent us into oblivion. When I took them over, I shared all information with her as to our income and expenses. She refuses to accept there isn't more money available.

It is a DJ, but I think what she actually refuses to accept is that she made an irrevocable mistake in marrying me. She thought I had much more family money and much more earning potential than I actually do have. Now that it is too late for her to go back and be 29 and never been married no kids, and go find a better sugar daddie, she refuses to accept that she is never going to get to live the kind of lifestyle she imagined she would get by marrying me.

Which is only fair. After all, I refuse to accept that I am never going to get to have the sex life I thought I was going to have by marrying her.

See, we are a perfect match!
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:24 PM
Hold...I think you need to go over them with her monthly - not just once. I think she needs to see the numbers improving but ever so slowly. She needs to be reminded repeatedly what predicament she put the family in. Sorry to say...

Are the finances improving any since you took them over?

Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:26 PM
It is a DJ, but I think what she actually refuses to accept is that she made an irrevocable mistake in marrying me. She thought I had much more family money and much more earning potential than I actually do have. Now that it is too late for her to go back and be 29 and never been married no kids, and go find a better sugar daddie, she refuses to accept that she is never going to get to live the kind of lifestyle she imagined she would get by marrying me.

Yeah...it is a DJ, but it's worth asking her about, Hold. I think this is the kind of negative speak you keep feeding yourself that contributes to your poor self image. I think it's about time you got it out in the open and then put it to rest.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:35 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit

It is a DJ, but I think what she actually refuses to accept is that she made an irrevocable mistake in marrying me. She thought I had much more family money and much more earning potential than I actually do have.


Where did she get this idea?
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:49 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
Well, sex is not everything. Being able to love, trust, and like your spouse is really important to your well being. Sex comes a distant fourth to all that.


It has been a long time since I trusted my spouse. Wow, in February it will be 10 years since "the discovery". That is a long time to sleep next to someone you don't trust.


WT? I did not know of that "discovery" you are talking about. Was there OP involved?
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:53 PM
For $5k, you can just set that aside for when you buy a drivable used car when S15 gets his drivers license min a year+.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:57 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
It is a DJ, but I think what she actually refuses to accept is that she made an irrevocable mistake in marrying me. She thought I had much more family money and much more earning potential than I actually do have. Now that it is too late for her to go back and be 29 and never been married no kids, and go find a better sugar daddie, she refuses to accept that she is never going to get to live the kind of lifestyle she imagined she would get by marrying me.

Yeah...it is a DJ, but it's worth asking her about, Hold. I think this is the kind of negative speak you keep feeding yourself that contributes to your poor self image. I think it's about time you got it out in the open and then put it to rest.


I think that would be a healthy dose of radical honesty.

Actually, it's just "blaming" or "victim puke" without really doing any effort towards whatever goal.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 08:58 PM
JM HOLD is talking about when he found out his wife, who had been managing their money, (she had that accounting degree after all) blew over 112K of his retirement assets, plus ran up all thier credit cards...in less than a year (BLEW THE MONEY ON NOTHING BUT JUNK) and hid all the reciepts from him.

Then, she kept lying to him until he found out the money was GONE!!!!

I would have divorced her back then. She will do nothing to pay any of it back. In fact, since then, she has forged his checks, stolen money from credit cards, opened her own credit cards that she ran up, and misused (overspending) his debit cards whenever he lets her have one for the day.

She is terrible.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 09:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
"I am continually perplexed when you bring something to me, like this, knowing it is outside the scope of what we can do. Feels to me like you want me to feel like a failure, to feel bad, knowing I want you and DS to be happy and successful."

For some reason, I don't think it's that she necessarily wants him to feel like a failure. I think she's really disconnected and not 'getting' the extent of the damage she did with the spending. She doesn't 'get' that he's waiting for her to take steps to help rectify it. She's sort of glossing over it in her mind, almost like she doesn't believe him - doesn't believe that what she did was all that bad...

One thing that could possibly be part of that is if Hold is keeping the bill paying, balance knowledge, cc balances, etc. apart from Mrs. Hold and not showing her the numbers monthly. Could be he isn't explaining to Mrs. Hold just how much they need in the bank before he can retire and how long that will take or before the son starts college, or before a home renovation can take place - things like that.

If you're not being open and honest on a monthly basis about the finances, she may be assuming the finances are better than you say they are. Perhaps if she saw the actual numbers regularly she would realize how ridiculous it would be to approach you for more money.


I wrote that from Hold's POV...my way of asking was this close? Could this be a hidden payoff in the way he addresses his life...can't know what MrsHold is really thinking/not thinking...she's not here. She hasn't been in all this time, has she?

But if he feels she does this to reinforce his belief that she wishes she could go back in time, pre-kids and marry a bigger sugar daddy (and I am implying that Hold has played that part at times in their marriage), then that's a false payoff...he likes that she reinforces what he thinks of himself...the self-hatred, proving he's right, he's a loser, not enough...again, a distorted payoff.

Hold, you didn't address if this was how you felt or not...that she will bring these ideas to you as if they are doable, when she knows they are not. My statement was a way to ask her what her pay off was in doing so. You seemed to flip it over onto her in your response.

And in your monthly budget, do you have a slot for each of the kids, to keep expenditures somewhat balanced? To show an annual total, as well, to make sure neither are consuming more than the other to a great degree? Would you consider having a marital slot in the budget, for UA time, marital vacation, separate from family vacation? Anniversaries?

I'm picturing my own spreadsheet; I thought "slot" was better than "cell".

smile

Why not move the boundary, Hold? When she comes to you, before you hear her out, ask her, "I'd love to hear your ideas for our kids education, entertainment, events (insert appropriate one). What I will no longer do is listen to them until you've checked our financials...gone over our current spreadsheet. Once you do that, I'm all ears."

What do you think? Respectful. Healthy. You can do both without even liking yourself.

smile

So, is part of what you experience when she does this feeling like a failure? Or does it just give you a big dose of resentment, where you weren't considered, who was left out, her using you to dash her dreams, again?

False payoffs don't go just one way. Or else we'd stop doing the dance.

LA
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 09:14 PM
HOLD, I just got a thought. Perhaps your wife always asking for expensive things, things that only Millionaires buy, is her way of "keeping you down" and "punishing you for not making the money she wants to spend">

I think it is a little snide way to keep you unhappy since she is unhappy without unlimited spending money. That she thinks she deserves.

The woman is bored and selfish. She should either be put in prison for what she did to you or forced to work at a terrible ditch digging like job for the next 10 years.

She seems pretty heinous to me. She killed you HOLD, and continues to do so....just not physically.

Every time she mentions some thing she wants big money for, she is trying to make you feel bad. She wants to dig that knife in DEEPER.

An ACCOUNTANT surely knows how much money is available and where it goes. Offer to buy her the latest accounting software so she can see the money flow for herself.

And I would not buy that _________ wife...ANYTHING. Rather put the extra money toward your retirement. Also make the kids have stuff that is reasonable, not stuff and programs that extremely wealthy kids go to. That is insane. It does not help the kids get ahead. There are much less expensive programs they can benefit from.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 11:25 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
If you're not being open and honest on a monthly basis about the finances, she may be assuming the finances are better than you say they are. Perhaps if she saw the actual numbers regularly she would realize how ridiculous it would be to approach you for more money.


I show her the numbers all the time. She is not interested in what is reasonable and what is ridiculous. Were you here when she asked me for more money one month and I laughed at the thought that we had any extra money and she got angry that I laughed?

Quote:
Hold, you didn't address if this was how you felt or not...that she will bring these ideas to you as if they are doable, when she knows they are not. My statement was a way to ask her what her pay off was in doing so. You seemed to flip it over onto her in your response.


That is something I can do. Ask her why she makes these requests. What is she hoping to accomplish. I predict she will answer "I want these things for our kids. Don't you?" When I point out I want them too, but we can't afford them, she will deflect / distract. We shall see how close my prediction comes to reality.

Quote:
And in your monthly budget, do you have a slot for each of the kids, to keep expenditures somewhat balanced? To show an annual total, as well, to make sure neither are consuming more than the other to a great degree?


Yes, I do. That is why I refuse to spend more on S15. We are already spending on the Bermuda trip. The next "slot" should go to D12.

Quote:
Would you consider having a marital slot in the budget, for UA time, marital vacation, separate from family vacation? Anniversaries?


No, I am not enthusiastic about that. I am not interested in more UA time, marital vacations, or costly celebrations of our anniversary. BTDT, and my needs were never addressed. Not going back there. I know our marriage has no chance of happiness without those things. Hence my prediction that our marriage will never be happy.

Quote:
Why not move the boundary, Hold? When she comes to you, before you hear her out, ask her, "I'd love to hear your ideas for our kids education, entertainment, events (insert appropriate one). What I will no longer do is listen to them until you've checked our financials...gone over our current spreadsheet. Once you do that, I'm all ears."


This I can do as well.

Quote:
So, is part of what you experience when she does this feeling like a failure?


Yes, I feel like a failure when she asks for expensive items.

Quote:
Or does it just give you a big dose of resentment, where you weren't considered, who was left out, her using you to dash her dreams, again?


That too. Resentment. Left out. Especially if she mentions things to the kids before checking with me. I have asked her not to do this. She continues to do it anyway. Then I have to be the "bad guy" who says no to Mom's great idea. I hate that.

Quote:
False payoffs don't go just one way. Or else we'd stop doing the dance.


I am sure she gets payoffs or she would stop doing it. I have stopped hoping that I can get her to give up the unhealthy payoffs.

After all, I am not willing to give them up, either.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 11:41 PM
After all the thousnds or millions of words here, the dynamic is very simple.

I was a failure at work before I met Mrs. Hold. I married her in the hope that copious sex with a beautiful woman would provide me with the confidence needed to succeed. It was a stupid idea and it is not surprising that it has failed.

She was supposed to be the cure for my unhappiness. Which, of course, is ridiculous. Happiness must come from within.

Now, she serves as a useful excuse for my failure.

If I were healthy, I would succeed at work. To provide a better future for my children. And our marriage would succeed or fail. But I would be happier either way.

However, I do not believe I can succeed. I was failing before I met her. Now I am older, tired, cynical, depressed and pessimistic. If I could not succeed then, why should I expect to succeed now?

On the other hand, I am confident that I can succeed at failure. So that is what I seek. What I work toward.

She is engaged in the same mechanism from the other side. She uses my lack of success and general wimpiness to excuse her failure to address my needs or do her internal work. Each of us finds it easier to blame the other than to work on ourself.

Both of us are familiar with and tolerant of failure / unhappiness. Hence we prefer the certainty of failure we can blame on our spouse. To trying and failing in a way that is purely personal.

Unless or until one of us is willing to risk more a personal failure. Neither of us has any chance of success.

As J_M said, it is all victim puke.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/14/09 11:55 PM
Hold,

You did the quote thing on my post and inserted Soolee's words into my quote box.

Tricky man.

smile

Just the first one...the rest of the quotes were mine.

Quote:
That is something I can do. Ask her why she makes these requests. What is she hoping to accomplish. I predict she will answer "I want these things for our kids. Don't you?" When I point out I want them too, but we can't afford them, she will deflect / distract. We shall see how close my prediction comes to reality.


I think making that boundary, that you won't engage discussion until she's reviewed the financial limitations is reasonable and respectful. As well as saying, "I believe you tell yourself you ask because you want it for one or both of our kids. I choose not to believe you anymore. I know you know we cannot do it all...and we don't sit down and enthusiastically agree ahead of time what we are able to do, equally, for our kids...and I know you won't hold yourself to not asking above and beyond what we agree to, either. I know you can work and make more happen for our kids. I'll believe you really want this for our kids when you make the money to pay for them."

Sturdy, true and loving...owning your own stuff. See, not predicting...focusing on what your real issue is...and one is that she keeps you aghast at her asking for what she knows is not possible. The Daddy-Please syndrome. Keeps you in Daddy form...and I'm asking you to stop it.

Just stop. Because it's what gives you that sin of pride and martyrdom which keeps you in self-hate.

Take away a single part and the whole house of cards fall...and you stop your cycle. Just one part destroys the loop. Think of all that energy you'll save from slaving to keep that loop in play, Hold.

And no lies that she will distract/deflect. She can't. You just stay on target, listen and repeat. She can try to distract/deflect...unless you willingly accompany her, won't work...don't go there.

Like me...

you still did not answer if historically, you felt like a failure when she would bring requests you couldn't afford to provide.

You don't have to answer, Hold...I can't make you. And it's respectful if you want to say, "I choose not to answer how I feel when she does this." I see you deflect/distract with predictions...turning to her instead of looking inward for my question.

Does that snap your suspenders?

smile

I wasn't clear enough in my slots naming...sorry. In the spreadsheet, you have a Row for each thing...Utilities (might have sub-rows for gas, electric, etc. with a subtotal), Car Maintenance...

Similarly, having a Row "Family" with three sub-rows...DS15, DD12, Marriage (not my order). And it's subtotalled (by month (columns) and by annual total...might even have actual versus budgeted.

smile

So at the time you guys booked the Bermuda trip for DS15...did you say, "I'd rather not do this until we figure out how much we're spending on Family for the year (or just those summer months), which includes us and DD12."

And if you didn't, you can now. You can stop now with the "We can't afford" and assert yourself. "I'm not supporting Bermuda, now, either, since I want balanced spending between our children" and find out if DW thinks that's reasonable...

Is it reasonable to spend as much on a 12-year-old (isn't she 13 yet?), as it is a 15-year-old? When she's 16, she'll be the only one at home...usually when the younger sibling rakes it in (in my experience as the younger sibling).

smile

Do you refuse to not do that which you will resent? Or do you refuse to not agree to anything either of you aren't enthusiastic about? Or do you refuse to spend...your quote above. Your choices...every one of them...choices from your intent, your goal...

which was to keep hating yourself and loving your kids...and surviving your wife for another six years.

Can you see where your real goals (the ones you are acting from) are in conflict with reality and your stated goals?

The "Marriage" row (slot) was half you and half her...you were addressed. My belief is that The Union comes first...and we are half that union. Because we're in there, equally, we address the Union first...our children second.

So I hear you definitively saying that you will NOT allow any of your ENs to be met within the Union, doing acts of love for the Union...and that you focus on getting yours addressed separately from The Marriage.

Whoa. You want money spent on you, for you, for IB, to harm the marriage...to feed yourself what you are choosing to deprive yourself of within the marriage. How on earth do you do that emotional math?

Okay, you can snap my suspenders (Ha! Don't wear those!)...I see where you said you do feel like a failure and you will move the boundary up to a healthy requirement. I'm sorry I didn't read your whole post and rather, began addressing bit by bit...

which can bite. smile I'm sorry.

Will you move the boundary up? Really break the daddy act to bits (please) and make it totally equals in your head...she's so capable, amazing and she can choose...and she hasn't yet. She might. Make sure you take a moment to rephrase all responses into choices.

And you cannot be the bad guy...you can be the healthy NO guy (that's part of the father's role, when it's healthy)...and you can say, "Parenting is singular (to your DS and DD). Your mother and I know we can only parent together...and at times, we screw up. We know to talk first, then inform you of our joint decision. She didn't do it this time. It happens."

No bad guys...children love your no's...later. They may hate it at first--and by nightfall, they sleep securely in knowing you're willing to enforce boundaries with "no."

Which is why they are crazy about you.

And saying a healthy "no" to your wife--maybe that's why you won't do it from love and respect...she, too, might become crazy about you.

Sure would screw up your plan to self-hate your way through life, eh?

Congratulations you no finally choosing not to hope she'll give up her unhealthy payoffs.

LA
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 03:17 AM
I guess it's a matter of perspective. You say you are a failure at work, yet you have a job. You keep the job. You bring home a steady paycheck. You do not feel entitled to a bigger job without doing the requisite work. You do not belabor tasks that you think are "beneath you". You seem to work and play well with others.

From my corner of the world, I don't see that as a failure. I would have been beyond happy with a spouse who did that. (I would have even been happy with a SAHD spouse--I had the earning potential to support the family.)

So in whose eyes are/were you a failure? Yours? Mrs. Hold's?
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 03:36 AM
aHA!!!

She's got you there, hold!!!!!!!
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 01:12 PM
I have been reading this thread, I think, forever. It whenever I get disguested, I get sucked back in...

First HOTI:
Your wife is a compulsive spender. (yeah, I think) She thougth she was marrying an ATM. Just like an alcholoic who thinks they have keys to the bar- Or a gambler who gets "mad money" at a casino- Or a non compliant diabetic in a candy store, You can not give the addict free reign.

You can not say, " How MUCH alcohol should I let my addict have per day?" The answer is ZERO.
The gambler -- NO CARDS
The diabetic -- NO raw sugar.
(believe me, my 49 year old diabetic sister sits there with no teeth in her head gobbeling on candy- all - the - time.)

and the compulsive spender-- NO BUDGET.

Your wife HAS a problem. She has commited theft and fraud, she would have gone to jail if she did these things at work! This is the first indication that she is an addict.

And she is in full swing addictive mode, still.

Sorry, HOTI, but you are the reason she still can.
Someday you will be divorced, or worse not here and she WILL continue the spending habits (why wouldn't she? she got away with it for years and years.?)

I have no idea how compulsive spenders recieve recovery- but I know that they have programs for it. She is not happy spending- tho she looks like it to you-

You are miserable. Your family is in chaos. The best thing you could do for yourself or her is to get her to stop the addiction.

Locate information on rehab for spending. Is there any way that there can be an intervention? Apparently your W thinks there is nothing wrong with her behavior.

There is help.
She can no make up what she has destroyed. Just like an alcohole can not "fix" things they have destroyed. But they can start over.
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 01:20 PM
Debtors Anonymous

but there are in house treament plans also available.
and IC's who specialise in this disorder.

Good luck to you.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 03:48 PM
Yikes. I read this thread and I wonder if I have the same problem. Of course, I haven't spent like I have read about Mrs. Hold but I've been known to make a purchase or two that I *know* is not in the budget. And then I beat myself up over it and figure out how to earn the extra $$$ to cover for it.

Example: Last year, I was thinking about buying a flat screen hi def TV for the house for Christmas (a present for everyone). I would have loved to have a 52" really fancy big name brand model (even though I dont' want TV..LOL) but did some research and found a lesser brand, 37" for something far less than $500 (vs the $2500 on the TV I was drooling over...)

Then I did some more research and realized I could purchase it through my employee's program with several different retailers and get a 10% discount. But I had to put it on that card (the only specific credit card I own...I have ONE visa which I use for emergencies, and THIS one retailer card).

So...I did it.

But then I went into my online banking and set up automatic payments over 4 months that fit my budget and allowed me to pay off the TV. I got 90 days interest free so I did wind up paying some interest on the 4th month.

Still, it *was* an impulse purchase and I've been known to do that from time to time.

I wonder how people really are able to be so disciplined to stick to a budget. I know what I did is a far cry from Mrs. Hold but the smaller things add up and I wonder if I too contributed to our financial state of affairs.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 03:59 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
I think making that boundary, that you won't engage discussion until she's reviewed the financial limitations is reasonable and respectful. As well as saying, "I believe you tell yourself you ask because you want it for one or both of our kids. I choose not to believe you anymore. I know you know we cannot do it all...and we don't sit down and enthusiastically agree ahead of time what we are able to do, equally, for our kids...and I know you won't hold yourself to not asking above and beyond what we agree to, either. I know you can work and make more happen for our kids. I'll believe you really want this for our kids when you make the money to pay for them."


Wow. That is golden.

Quote:
you still did not answer if historically, you felt like a failure when she would bring requests you couldn't afford to provide.


Yes, I feel like a failure when she ask for things I cannot afford. I feel the same way when my kids express desire for things I can't afford. It is part and parcel of my shame-based existence.

Quote:
Do you refuse to not do that which you will resent?
No.

Quote:
Or do you refuse to not agree to anything either of you aren't enthusiastic about?


No, I will keep agreeing to things I resent.

Quote:
which was to keep hating yourself and loving your kids...and surviving your wife for another six years.


Exactly.

Quote:
So I hear you definitively saying that you will NOT allow any of your ENs to be met within the Union, doing acts of love for the Union...and that you focus on getting yours addressed separately from The Marriage.


Well, I don't really expect my needs to get met at all. But to the extent they do get met, then yes, I expect they will get met separately from The Marriage.

Quote:
Whoa. You want money spent on you, for you, for IB, to harm the marriage...to feed yourself what you are choosing to deprive yourself of within the marriage. How on earth do you do that emotional math?


It is easy. I was a math major. When things don't seem to add up, just add another dimension. wink

Quote:
Which is why they are crazy about you.


S15 had trouble getting up this morning. His Mom said "from now on, you must go to sleep earlier". He replied "but that is when Dad comes to my room (after his homework is done), and I like him coming to my room, and I don't want to kick him out".

So he does love me. And enjoys time with me. But I guess Dad will have to be the mature one and get out of his room earlier on weeknights.

Quote:
And saying a healthy "no" to your wife--maybe that's why you won't do it from love and respect...she, too, might become crazy about you.


Nah, no worries there. Our cooktop is dying. Down to 2 working coils. So for Hanukah, I decided to get Mrs. Hold a new cooktop. Found one very reasonably priced on Ebay. Won the auction last night. She was SO THRILLED this morning. She was literally jumping with joy. The only way she is happy with me is when I buy her something expensive. Makes me want to puke.

Which is OK. The only time I was thrilled with her was when she had sex with me. Which made her want to puke. So we are even.

Except that sex with her no longer thrills me. So there is no longer any way for her to motivate me to be thrilled with her. Which eliminates any interest I might have in motivating her to be thrilled with me.

LA, I don't want her to be crazy about me. I don't want her to love me. I want her to lust after me. And if she won't / can't (which seems to be the case), then I want her to hate me. As much as I hate her for not lusting after me. And as much as I hate myself for not being the object of her lust.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 04:27 PM
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
So in whose eyes are/were you a failure? Yours? Mrs. Hold's?


Yes, exactly, both of ours.
Posted By: nams Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 04:38 PM
Hold, you and your wife have your own crazy version of Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe going on. Check that movie with Elizabeth Taylor out. Who knows it might make you laugh, cry, both.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 04:38 PM
Is assuming you are a failure in her eyes a DJ? Should you just be concentrating on WHY you are a failure in your own eyes?
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 04:42 PM
I don't see the expense in the cooktop...I see you really seeing what she wanted the most and choosing that for your gift. You can DJ it another way...and you said you hadn't seen her delighted with you in a long time...

and she has been...and you refuse to acknowledge. Doesn't make it so, sir. Makes you just hiding it from you.

You can't motivate her delight, her being thrilled...you can be present and aware, and in reality that your choices ripple...that you don't control outcomes...only actions.

I know you don't want her to be crazy about you...so you continue to DJ, to not say "no" or make respectful boundaries...'cuz you don't want to be crazy about yourself, either. You don't want to soar...too scary. You want to keep her making you feel the routine, habitual feelings...failure, inadequate, rejected.

I know, I remember. I swore I wasn't doing it, either.

You don't control her choice to love you...you definitely have a part in her feeling loving feelings. Not all or nothing. And she does. She fears you as much as you fear her. She feels like a failure as often as you do. Rejected...and she sets herself for your rejection, time and time again. Reinforces she's right...

and so you both spin. Only takes one to stop the downward spiral.

Puking is a form of deep rejecting, I believe...it's how our bodies signal us when our emotions cannot be stuffed down anymore, when our minds can no longer justify and distract, and when our spirit, sickened from our self-abuse, finally rejects...because we really hate the spiral, the spin...not what we really want...not really...just what we continually do to self-sabotage.

Often, folks hate what they lust for...feel like slaves to our own lust...so you get a double win that way. If only she would change...

And she gets delighted with the way you love her, anyway. Yeah, she's the monster here...you betcha. She's the one who points out how others see you, like you...she shares. She didn't withhold her joy over your gift...alleviating something she was struggling with.

She meets your ENs for FC, DS...she acts out what you will not...what you dread...?

You were her hero this morning...maybe she thought she was thrilled WITH you. A real H would tell her your truth...that you are not and hate yourself for giving her the gift which gives her joy...and that you hate her and yourself. And you like it that way, want to keep it that way.

But then, to tell her is an act of intimacy...would lessen your feelings of rejection without you hinging telling her on her response. Instead of telling her what you are solely responsible for...your stuff.

You chose to give a loving gift without love. She doesn't know that. She felt loved, cherished, cared for and understood. That's her love language (and mine as well). You can continue to DJ it about money...and miss the symbols. On purpose. Keeps her the villain and you the martyr that way.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 04:57 PM
I never said she was the monster. Or the villain. For years I have said only that we are incompatible. She is a good person. I used to be a good person.

I understand I am the villain. Because I do what I do knowing it causes pain. To both of us. And I choose to do it anyway.

I am a cutter. Cutting my soul. I don't see myself ever stopping.

What I have stopped is being a real H to her. What I am doing is trying desperately to hide that fact. Makes it pretty stupid of me to admit it on a public forum.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 06:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
JM HOLD is talking about when he found out his wife, who had been managing their money, (she had that accounting degree after all) blew over 112K of his retirement assets, plus ran up all thier credit cards...in less than a year (BLEW THE MONEY ON NOTHING BUT JUNK) and hid all the reciepts from him.

Then, she kept lying to him until he found out the money was GONE!!!!

I would have divorced her back then. She will do nothing to pay any of it back. In fact, since then, she has forged his checks, stolen money from credit cards, opened her own credit cards that she ran up, and misused (overspending) his debit cards whenever he lets her have one for the day.

She is terrible.


Ahh, yeah I remember that. Yes, that's one area where trust is broken. BUT, it took a very long time for Hold to assert and put effort on his part in taking control of the money. He felt trapped or stuck or unable to "rock the boat" at the time because the "lack of sex" in his marriage at the time defined it for him.

Or rather gave Mrs Hold all that control. She sure has a lot of the blame, but Hold also has his part. But in the end of it all that effort to find blame, the issue was not immediately handled.
Posted By: TheAntiChick Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 06:08 PM
Actually, Hold, what you've done is find a *pseudo*-public forum where you can vent these emotions and to a certain extent, wallow in them. So you're still hiding the fact in your "real" life. That's one of the enticing things -- and thus one of the dangerous things -- about the internet. We can find places to express our "real selves" without any real danger - sure, there are people who will say nasty things to us, deserved or not, but we don't have to engage, we only have to take what we want from the internet experience.

I only hope that you are actually gaining something positive from the interactions here, and working up to some positive action in your life instead of just soaking in it.

I've been reading your thread for some time now, but really haven't had anything constructive to add. I sympathize with your angst, and feel anger on your behalf for the way your wife has apparently used you. I can empathize with your depression, too.

However, I also find myself wanting to give you advice one of my best friends gives me on occasion. An ex-marine, he rarely minces words. Here's what he tells me, verbatim. "You've had your three laps in the pity pool, missy, and you're getting wrinkly. Time to get out, I'll get your towel."

At some point, Hold, you really do have to *decide* you're done living life so negatively, and take a step in the other direction. You'll likely find you have people in your life who care about you and want to help, but they're waiting for you to take a step because they know it's something you have to do for yourself.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 06:26 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
After all the thousnds or millions of words here, the dynamic is very simple.

I was a failure at work before I met Mrs. Hold. I married her in the hope that copious sex with a beautiful woman would provide me with the confidence needed to succeed. It was a stupid idea and it is not surprising that it has failed.

She was supposed to be the cure for my unhappiness. Which, of course, is ridiculous. Happiness must come from within.

Now, she serves as a useful excuse for my failure.

If I were healthy, I would succeed at work. To provide a better future for my children. And our marriage would succeed or fail. But I would be happier either way.

However, I do not believe I can succeed. I was failing before I met her. Now I am older, tired, cynical, depressed and pessimistic. If I could not succeed then, why should I expect to succeed now?

On the other hand, I am confident that I can succeed at failure. So that is what I seek. What I work toward.

She is engaged in the same mechanism from the other side. She uses my lack of success and general wimpiness to excuse her failure to address my needs or do her internal work. Each of us finds it easier to blame the other than to work on ourself.

Both of us are familiar with and tolerant of failure / unhappiness. Hence we prefer the certainty of failure we can blame on our spouse. To trying and failing in a way that is purely personal.

Unless or until one of us is willing to risk more a personal failure. Neither of us has any chance of success.

As J_M said, it is all victim puke.


Part of that is explained in the book, No More Mr Nice Guy. I think you read it before. The Break Free Exercises in the book is VERY hard to do for Nice Guys (NG).

I too have thought that by having a great sex life with my wife, that I would have that magic to propel me to more achievements and successes.

Yet, despite having accomplishments, I still felt not good enough. And the more I want that sex to fix the feeling inside, the more I got frustrated when I was not getting the fulfillment in SF. I spent many years focusing on the lack of sex in my marriage, my unmet SF needs.

I even put less importance to finance because my mindset was that I could always make more. Eventually, finance becomes an issue because wife became SAHM, the business was closed, and the spending remained as if we were still generating such income. It also became more of a pressing matter when I realize that my earning potential is finite.

Anyway, many books and forums later, the NMMNG book had a line something about "I am the only person in the world responsible for my needs, no one else." I was totally against this thought in the beginning, especially towards SF. But I eventually come to realize the truth of that, and our sex life now is much better than what it was, but still have plenty of room for improvement.

It's been said many times here in MB that "change from within" and that is something I had to do, and left me with "hope" that wife would want to make changes for herself.

One more important point is that I change for my own reasons. And this lead me to be in the position to "choose" and be in the marriage because I want to; because I evaluate all the values is it, even when sex is one factor that is not near perfect, on the whole, it is acceptable to me.

Likewise, I am able to emotionally "let go" if my wife "chooses" not to be married with me.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 06:32 PM
Eventually, finance becomes an issue because wife became SAHM, the business was closed, and the spending remained as if we were still generating such income.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE WOMEN???????
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 08:44 PM
You're not the villain, either, Hold. You're two humans in a human marriage...each doing harm and love, working out your stuff.

Still a real H...and she's a real W. Her H. Your W.

I believe you stopped being the H you really liked being before...absolutely. What would you say are the key differences? You didn't have healthy boundaries before...and you aren't enforcing healthy boundaries now...that I can see. I know you see yourself as different, though...before, were you giving to get, to achieve balance, to get her to stop/start?

Incompatible? How very alike your issues are...as you've seen. Consider compatible dysfunction? Like Functional Dysfunction.

smile

You've succeeded every day, Hold, in many ways...and choose to focus on your lack. You know this...part of the choice to emotionally cut and do harm to yourself and others.


BUBBLES...

Do you remember I Love Lucy? One of the situational comedic themes she had going was financial infidelity. Portrayed as cute, entitled, attractive...full of funny justifications and assumptions. Since Shakespeare, most comedies are tragedies with timing.

Modeled wives as treating their husbands as alternately daddies and little boys...and growing up, I decided that was what love was...how women were supposed to act...saw it in my mothers and my father...wives pushing the financial limits like children...and calling their spouse juvenile.

Only my father was portrayed as the spend-thrift, the one always pushing the boundaries...and I married a shopaholic. Quite a mixed bag...certainly one attracts the other...to work it all out, over time, together.

And some do. And some gain forgiveness and live new...make new choices...and others repeat and repeat...until they stop (or don't)...

Gotta tell you...my false payoff was in the superiority of being a miser, better at money, and I got to manage my DH, shame him for his fiscal irresponsibility...what I mess I was and yet, least not that one way, eh?

He bounced checks and I didn't take away his check book. He didn't record atm withdrawals and I didn't take away his atm card...didn't brainstorm POJA with him...I, too, kept that addictive cycle going, playing my part, reaping my own twisted rewards.

I believe this is the sin of pride God speaks about. Not what we really want...very destructive and abusive, blocking our relationship with God in different ways. And with others. And does harm.

Which is why God made no one on this earth in more control of others...even though we can experience life as if they are...that we are done to...when in reality, we don't do what's only our part...eyes on the perp at all times.

So we repeat.

My answer to your question, Bubbles.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 10:01 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Incompatible? How very alike your issues are...as you've seen. Consider compatible dysfunction? Like Functional Dysfunction.


Yes, we are perfectly matched. Perfectly calibrated to push each others' buttons. Capable of tolerating indefinitely what others would find intolerable. Given how little we knew of one another before we got engaged, it is amazing that we found each other. It is as if each of our dysfunctions was screaming out to be joined to a person ideally situated to cause the other person maximum pain.

I imagine God was hoping we would choose to heal each other. That we would choose to stop causing the other pain. I guess God will have to be disappointed.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 10:28 PM
I wouldn't guess God. He's at work, with purpose and love.

Wouldn't it be terrifying if God wouldn't heal us until we earned his healing? What if he waited until we went first?

Even as you deny yourself joy, intimacy, harmony and fulfillment, so do you deny God. For he weeps when we weep, remember? Feels joy as we feel joy...in our relationship with him, he feels...

Can you imagine your children filled with such self-hatred, these wonderful creations of yours? To me, disappointment doesn't come close.

Old territory...I know. Already shared the impact of my previous self-hatred and how the consequences keep coming...and will come...not in my control.

It's like you both have discovered you have this disease and you stand looking at the other, the cure, and refusing it. You can't choose for her...

what is at the heart of this thread is your choice to not heal, anyway.

Healing enough to see you weren't worthy of hate at any time...all along. Just chose to experience life as if you were.

Unfathomable to me why when you knew better you chose not to do better. To reject joy (as you did this morning with your gift), to reject reality, to suppose it instead...

just so you can keep experiencing rejection with every breath.

I would love MrsHold to be brave and strong right now, come to MB, and hear if she is choosing not to heal, for those same reasons, too.

In the habit of pain...lots of threads here on MB about that habit, breaking it, changing marriages and lives. Different ways. So many choices.

My prayer remains constant...for your marriage to experience a clean slate, a rebirth, when you realize you fulfill your fears and they are still not real.

Inflecting more pain on yourself and your marriage when you fear pain is irrational...just shows you that's not what you really fear.

So rejection isn't what you fear (because you engineer it). So, is it to be loved, accepted and respected? Do you fear that? Because that's out of your control...always has been...others choose...and so many love, accept and respect who you are.

Do you fear loving, accepting and respecting yourself? Like a misstep you might accidentally take?

I'd have to consider Satan's work of tempting you to keep yourself in chains for he has a huge fear of you, if you break free.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 10:38 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
and so you both spin. Only takes one to stop the downward spiral.


There is no longer any way to stop the downward spiral. I cannot imagine ever choosing to stop rejecting her.

Even if she chose to stop rejecting me, I am no longer open to her. I won't allow her to stop rejecting me. I will withdraw so far she cannot reach me, and then blame her for falling short.

She can't win. Neither can I.

Just like I like it.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 10:54 PM
Wow, Hold. Sometimes I think we are scarily alike.
Posted By: celtic_twilight Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 10:54 PM
Hold, from what you have posted, your wife is adicted to spending. It doesn't make her a bad person, but she seems to have no control, even when you have POJAd an agreement, even when you don't have the money in the budget, even when she had to commit fraud to get the cheques/credit cards. MB won't work in the presence of an adiction.

Have you talked to your son about money? He is old enough, and at the stage where he should know what finance is available for his college choices. It is also pre-emptive, if Mrs. hold is suggesting something that's just not possible, then he will have the facts at his disposal to make a decision. I am not US based, but does he have an interest in courses where he could start off at a comunity college, and then transfer to a state college, or something like that? If he needs to get scholarships or work through college, then does he need to know that now?? I have a friend who lectures, and the kids who do well are the ones who understand how much this is costing their parents, and how much an education is worth. The ones who get everything handed to them end up with a harder path through life. By absolutely no means do I mean run down Mrs. Hold. Just discuss your sons options, what's available to spend, and what isn't. Sit him down and go through the family budget. Let him know you would love to buy him everything he wants!!! But you can't.

ETA, I have to agree with OH, you have a job! You've kept it for years! You're ahead of the game here. My DH hasn't worked in 9 years, though he is very very good with the children. If he had refused to be a SAHD, I don't know what I'd have done.

Edited again, sorry! I have got the idea from reading your posts over the years that you can't get a job that would keep your wife happy. No matter how much you earn, she seems to be able to waaay outspend it. This is JMO, and doesn't make her a bad person. Though it does make her mentaly ill.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 11:11 PM
MB worked in my marriage even with active addictions...difference was...we were in MC working to stop the addictions...

and we did. Radical honesty works even in the face of addiction.

I don't believe you, Hold...I don't believe you know what you'd do if your DW stepped up, took hold her power, centered herself in her limits and acted from love for you. I have no doubt she would have an entirely different experience of you...even if you didn't change.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 11:13 PM
Sorry for all the victim puke.

Every day I am torn. Split down the middle. Part of me wants to love my wife. To reach out for her. To cuddle with her. To share my life intimately.

Part of me is afraid. Of rejection. Of not being rejected. I want to hug her. But I fear rejection. I want to have sex with her. But I fear not only rejection, but inability to perform. So I do not ask. I stay away from the bedroom until long after she is asleep. Or I climb into bed but stay far away on my side.

Meanwhile, every fibre of my being cries out to reach for her. While every ounce of my willpower holds me immobile.

It is a constaint strain. A constant tension. It is wearing me down. Exhausting me. Tearing me apart.

Some days are better than others. SOme days I can function. Some days I can't. Too often I come here to vent when the pressure gets too much for me.

I shouldn't take this out on you guys. Thank you for listening to my ravings.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/15/09 11:29 PM
Quote:
Radical honesty works even in the face of addiction.
Many posters here have told me to bag MBers until H gets into treatment for alcoholism. They're probably right but he denies the problem. Yet, I still try to work the program. Is that the definition of insanity? Maybe I have more in common with Mrs. Hold than Hold.

Quote:
My DH hasn't worked in 9 years, though he is very very good with the children. If he had refused to be a SAHD, I don't know what I'd have done.


Well if you were really stupid like me, you would have just sucked up your resentment when he started moaning and groaning at 3PM..where are you? I have to get out of the house. You have to leave work early and come home...etc. AND...left me with the bulk of the housework too. And you would have sat on that resentment and let it simmer for years and years and years.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 01:23 AM
http://www.boughtoutandspent.com/

http://www.moneyharmony.com/book.html

A few books I came across while surfing.

Hold...is there any chance she has taken this as far as shoplifting or stealing from anyone other than you?
Posted By: barbiecat Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 04:17 AM
Wow, HOTI;

That is about as thick of fog babble that I have ever heard on this site. Trust me, if you were rationalising an A (instead of the self hate obsession thingy..on and on) people here would sniff it out in a minute and cook your can about it.

What kind of mother spends her family into the poorhouse, and wants to spend $5k on an non imparative activity for her son? Tens of thousandds of dollars this woman has frauded from her FAMILY fund. For what?
What kind of mom spends her family into the poorhouse?
The kind of mother who is married to a father who enables good ol' ma to put their children's futures at stake.

She is an addict-- hello-- mentally ill. And she has found, obviously her perfect match. Yeah, I know that is harsh- but just go back about a thousand fogspeak rants and see what I and others here can see. People are telling you here YOU have an issue, and you just ignor it and continue on.

So, can you budget an alcoholics booze? No, you insist they get off the sauce. If you love them or your family-- (yeah I know, you hate so and so and yourself..blah blah blah)
If you think your kids are going to love an appreciate you (with this card house of lies, addiction and general dysfunction) you are wrong. I bet your children are smart as whips. The best thing you could do it to
INSIST ON TREATMENT FOR YOURSELF AND YOUR WIFE.


Does your family know what has happened? About all the money, embezeling and debt?
Does hers? Why not?
Why is she allowed to wheel around like "bigshot Molly" and screw her children's futures over (note: I am not even addressing your future- you are an adult and if you want to let her pi$$ it away that is your choice)

I feel sorry for your kids. They will be the ones to suffer in this economy (your kids fafsa is based on YOUR credit ratings) You let this go on for TEN YEARS?

You are older, I believe I read. Why did you not do an intervention before now? sex? fear? you hate X,Y,Z...?

You come here to "vent" and browbeat yourself- but nothing but fog and dust ever really happens. That is not MB. You know that, you write well and I can tell you are smart.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 04:58 AM
I agree with what Barbie said. Why not take control and quit giving your wife money? Then force her into treatment. Barbie is right, your wife wants to prance around like "Big Shot Molly"> but it is all fake. Your wife has damaged the family, the kids, and you. And you sit around and take it. I have asked this 100 times from you HOLD. Why not confront your wife and take full control of the finances.
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 01:24 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Sorry for all the victim puke.

Every day I am torn. Split down the middle. Part of me wants to love my wife. To reach out for her. To cuddle with her. To share my life intimately.

Part of me is afraid. Of rejection. Of not being rejected. I want to hug her. But I fear rejection. I want to have sex with her. But I fear not only rejection, but inability to perform. So I do not ask. I stay away from the bedroom until long after she is asleep. Or I climb into bed but stay far away on my side.

Meanwhile, every fibre of my being cries out to reach for her. While every ounce of my willpower holds me immobile.

It is a constaint strain. A constant tension. It is wearing me down. Exhausting me. Tearing me apart.

Some days are better than others. SOme days I can function. Some days I can't. Too often I come here to vent when the pressure gets too much for me.

I shouldn't take this out on you guys. Thank you for listening to my ravings.


Oh Hold. I'm sorry.

I understand these feelings--I have not lived there as long as you have, but I have certainly been in that place.

You deserve love, hold. You really do.

I still hope your wife is the one to give you love--but I'm quite sure that you need to start giving it to yourself... with believing you deserve it, because you do.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 02:57 PM
I was horny this morning. Equipment seemed to be working. I wandered by Mrs. Hold naked. She invited me into her "lair" (her word). Was nice. On the way out the door she said "have a nice day" and I replied "I already did" and she giggled.

Point is I listened to you guys. I was in the living room planning on servicing myself and thought "this is nuts, I should at least give her a chance to meet my needs." So I wandered into the computer area and it went well.

And last night she was talking to S15 about the summer. They were viewing more programs. I told them "money is not infinite, and we have not yet allocated anything to D12 or the rest of the family. I am not enthusiastic about allocating more to S15 at this time. How about being a CIT?" They said that was a good idea and they will look into being a CIT at a local university that runs a sports camp over the summer. We shall see.

Maybe being eeyore all the time isn't such a good idea.
Posted By: GBH Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 03:35 PM
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
Last year, I was thinking about buying a flat screen hi def TV for the house for Christmas (a present for everyone). I would have loved to have a 52" really fancy big name brand model (even though I dont' want TV..LOL) but did some research and found a lesser brand, 37" for something far less than $500 (vs the $2500 on the TV I was drooling over...

Then I did some more research and realized I could purchase it through my employee's program with several different retailers and get a 10% discount.

So...I did it.

But then I went into my online banking and set up automatic payments over 4 months that fit my budget and allowed me to pay off the TV. I got 90 days interest free so I did wind up paying some interest on the 4th month.

Still, it *was* an impulse purchase and I've been known to do that from time to time.


That is hardly an impulse buy from my standards. smile You did the research and got a good value. That is smart shopping. An impulse buy would be buying a big-screen TV, without the wife's knowledge, when you don't have two nickels to rub together, and bringing it home, only to find out that it doesn't fit through the door of your mobile home! That is what my nephew did a few years back. The TV went back to the store that night.

Quote:
I wonder how people really are able to be so disciplined to stick to a budget. I know what I did is a far cry from Mrs. Hold but the smaller things add up and I wonder if I too contributed to our financial state of affairs.


It is called separating wants from needs. It is very simple; no rocket science required. My nephew did not need that TV; they had a perfectly functional TV already. He just saw it in the store and thought to himself, "I want that" with no consideration of whether they could really afford it, much less get it through the front door!

Right now, I drive a compact sedan that has 130K miles on it and is low to the ground and as my knees continue to age, it is difficult to get into and out of. I want one of those crossovers like a Toyota Rav 4 or a Honda CRV or maybe a Lexus (one can dream, right?). They're higher off the ground, and the all-wheel drive would be nice in the winter. But I don't need it; my current car gets me around just fine. So I keep driving it, watch enviously as other people drive their fancy new cars, then laugh to myself because my little sedan is paid for.

I also wouldn't mind having an iPhone and getting all those cool apps. But my cell phone, which I can use to make and receive calls, is all I need. A new iPhone would not only be expensive to buy, it would be expensive to keep up as the monthly charge would be far greater than the $32/month plan I have now (limited minutes and no texting).

There is no one on the face of this planet that needs an iPhone. Or an expensive entertainment system. Or a Lexus SUV. Or a McMansion. Or fancy parties for their children. The list goes on. It's all a matter of priorities.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 03:52 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Sorry for all the victim puke.

Every day I am torn. Split down the middle. Part of me wants to love my wife. To reach out for her. To cuddle with her. To share my life intimately.

Part of me is afraid. Of rejection. Of not being rejected. I want to hug her. But I fear rejection. I want to have sex with her. But I fear not only rejection, but inability to perform. So I do not ask. I stay away from the bedroom until long after she is asleep. Or I climb into bed but stay far away on my side.

Meanwhile, every fibre of my being cries out to reach for her. While every ounce of my willpower holds me immobile.

It is a constaint strain. A constant tension. It is wearing me down. Exhausting me. Tearing me apart.

Some days are better than others. SOme days I can function. Some days I can't. Too often I come here to vent when the pressure gets too much for me.

I shouldn't take this out on you guys. Thank you for listening to my ravings.


Hold,

I so know that feeling and fearing rejection. But I was wrong in my thinking and belief in that regard, and those fears were mostly based on how I was not accepting of myself, including my flaws, and imperfection.

One of the points in NMMNG was being int he mindset of I as an adult person has absolute control of what I want and what I choose to believe in my life. First, it is ok to be me, just the way I am. Be it horny and wanting sex, be it believing in a sexually fulfilling marriage, be it conservative in financial matters, be it heavier in weight to the so called ideal weight. These are all my choices for me.

Now as far as "fearing" rejection in sex with the wife. This was a struggle for me to get off that thinking. I told thw fei how I felt, and her answer was that she was not rejecting me, it is not me, it is her. She don't feel like it, she is tired, etc. Even though I hear her, I still felt and took it as a personal rejection. WHY?

WHY? The answer NMMNG gave to me were Abundance, and Validation. Sex was not in abundance in my thinking, simply because I "let go" of the responsibility of meeting that need by my wife. Healthy Masturbation (HM) solves the "scarcity" of sex.

There was a point where I thought that HM was not right in the M, but that thinking was leading me in the position of entitlement and expectation. I also had feelings of "toxic shame" or some semblance of "failure" when I had to resort to HM to get sex in my marriage. But going back to the original point in NMMNG, "I am the only person in this world responsible for meeting my needs." This was against my belief in marriage, because I "expected" and felt "entitled" that sex will happen in the marriage.

I remove that expectation and entitlement. I introduce abundance via HM. And what sex happens in my marriage, is from my choice, and her choice. It is what makes the marriage. I let her know how I feel, and what I want, but it is her choice to meet my needs. I am no longer dependent on anyone to meet my sexual needs. It removes my effort "to try and fix" and instead focus my effort on improving myself and "let the marriage grow."

That said, there are still times that I fall into the "spiral thinking of withdrawing and brooding and feeling depressed and generating resentment." It is my right to "feel" any of those. And I find ways to express them. And I also know that my feelings change, so I find ways to cope and consciously put my effort to feel something more positive. Or enforce and remind myself that "I am ok just the way I am."

I also had to start believing and living that "I am a likable and lovable" person. I was always my harshest critique, because I was a perfectionist and put higher standards for myself. I felt such a failure despite many accomplishments, and many goals achieved. I was not "content" with myself despite the fact that my kids are thrilled with the time and effort and attention I give to them.

During one of those radical honest conversations I have with my wife, we told each other what we appreciate from our spouse, and my wife said a litany of things that I do and don't think much of them because "I expected them". But she said that those are likable and lovable qualities, and when I do go in that withdrawal and brooding mode, my wife told me it is as she is punishing them (her and the kids).

After that, I realize that I do not need to hear such appreciation and gratitude "to feel good, to feel appreciated." I have the ability to self-gratitude because I know what I do not just for myself, but for my wife and kids. Many call it ego, and I realize that many people can't handle my ego--but I think it is healthy for my sake and my marriage and my family to live in the mindset that I am worthy and those around me are blessed to have me in their life.

I use to have thoughts just as you are now Hold. How much a failure I was, how unlovable and unlikable and unworthy I am. I navel gazed and realizes that those list of expectations I had for myself needed to be re-examined by my adult self. Meaning, that I have the power to choose which values and beliefs I want in my life from today and the rest of my life.

So I chose to "lead" my life as how I defined it. How I chose which values are for me and which beliefs are not for me. And lead I do, and my wife chooses to follow. It's her choice.
Posted By: TheAntiChick Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 05:44 PM
YAY, HOLD!! dance2

Two steps in one day!

Be proud for taking those steps, and savor how good it feels to have taken them!!

Yes, there are always Eeyore days, but Pooh days are good, too. smile
Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 07:38 PM
Yay!!!!

Have a wonderful wonderful day, Hold!

:-)

So happy that today was a good day.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 08:47 PM
Smiling at Hold...:)
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/16/09 08:56 PM
Oh, Hold...kudos on choosing differently. My belief is that last night you set up this morning...radical honesty is really sexy...saying no is sexy...

and then saying yes is...

thank you for opening yourself up to that experience. Kudos to your wife, too, for both of her parts.

laugh

And here I would have thought a couple of years ago, that since you said no the night before to her spending idea, that for sure she'd have shut you down harshly this morning.

Even while you experience your wife as not changing...she changes.

As do you. Maybe you're just catching up with yourself.

laugh

LA
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/18/09 11:39 PM
Shabbat Shalom, Hold...
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/21/09 04:45 PM
Spent the weekend in Florida. Had to go to a meeting on Friday to help my Dad with a legal problem and then the storm kept me stuck down there until Sunday night.

Friday night we went to a wine tasting event with a bunch of their friends. Saturday I tried and failed to get home, then we went for pizza with another couple they know.

I had a great time with my parents. We have not been alone together in probably 15+ years (since my son was born). It was nice to have time to myself with them. So in the end it wasn't so bad to be stuck in Florida an extra day.

Wishing everyone the best for the coming holidays.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/21/09 04:51 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I was horny this morning. Equipment seemed to be working. I wandered by Mrs. Hold naked. She invited me into her "lair" (her word). Was nice. On the way out the door she said "have a nice day" and I replied "I already did" and she giggled.

Point is I listened to you guys. I was in the living room planning on servicing myself and thought "this is nuts, I should at least give her a chance to meet my needs." So I wandered into the computer area and it went well.

And last night she was talking to S15 about the summer. They were viewing more programs. I told them "money is not infinite, and we have not yet allocated anything to D12 or the rest of the family. I am not enthusiastic about allocating more to S15 at this time. How about being a CIT?" They said that was a good idea and they will look into being a CIT at a local university that runs a sports camp over the summer. We shall see.

Maybe being eeyore all the time isn't such a good idea.

faint

hold, I gotta tell ya, I just quit coming to your thread; just wandered in here by accident, not expecting anything but more misery.

Just...wow.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/21/09 05:20 PM
Originally Posted By: catperson
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I was horny this morning. Equipment seemed to be working. I wandered by Mrs. Hold naked. She invited me into her "lair" (her word). Was nice. On the way out the door she said "have a nice day" and I replied "I already did" and she giggled.

Point is I listened to you guys. I was in the living room planning on servicing myself and thought "this is nuts, I should at least give her a chance to meet my needs." So I wandered into the computer area and it went well.

And last night she was talking to S15 about the summer. They were viewing more programs. I told them "money is not infinite, and we have not yet allocated anything to D12 or the rest of the family. I am not enthusiastic about allocating more to S15 at this time. How about being a CIT?" They said that was a good idea and they will look into being a CIT at a local university that runs a sports camp over the summer. We shall see.

Maybe being eeyore all the time isn't such a good idea.

faint

hold, I gotta tell ya, I just quit coming to your thread; just wandered in here by accident, not expecting anything but more misery.

Just...wow.


Same here Cat. I would have missed this entirely if you had not quoted it.

Good for you Hold!
Posted By: HitchHiker Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/21/09 06:31 PM
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
I wonder how people really are able to be so disciplined to stick to a budget. I know what I did is a far cry from Mrs. Hold but the smaller things add up and I wonder if I too contributed to our financial state of affairs.


OH, most people don't understand budgeting. We have what I view as a severe lack of fiscal conservatism in this country. After all, some 70+ percent of our GDP is derived from our spending habits (problem).

Most folks associate a budget with the negative connotation of limits, or as you said, discipline. Does budgeting require discipline? Yes and no. Yes in that any plan requires a willingness to stick to the fundamentals of the plan. That said, any well designed budget accounts for both wants and needs - it recognizes that we all have real needs, as GBH said, but we all also have wants - and any budget should reflect both realities. A budget that overstates needs and understates wants will never work long term (though budgets can be altered temporarily to reach certain goals). I've read a TON of financial planning books, mostly because one of my hobbies is the study of economics and finance (my major in college was Securities Analysis/Finance within the Business Admin track). I own precious few of these books as most I don't feel do a good enough job to warrant owning. I can recommend a few books if you're interested. One of the best overall books for budgeting is All Your Worth here:

http://www.amazon.com/All-Your-Worth-Ultimate-Lifetime/dp/0743269888/ref=pd_sim_b_1

The key concept is that every budget has to reflect our being human, and therefore every budget has to have a healthy balance of wants and needs. For instance, if too much of the monthly budget is going toward real needs, then the family members will inevitably feel as though they are missing out on certain aspects of life (wants such as vacations, eating out, toys, games, or whatever else the family in question views as their wants/luxuries). The book I've recommended doesn't just talk about budgeting, it also talks about the human component, and how to achieve a good balance of wants and needs financially.

Ever wonder why one family that makes 75k a year seems to live well and really enjoy life while the family that lives right next door and makes 150k a year always seems to be struggling? It's all about balance. High level, All Your Worth will teach you a model that breaks down as follows: 50% needs, 30% wants, 20% savings. I won't say any more than that as what goes into those categories is what the entire book is all about. Can't recommend it highly enough for those struggling with their finances due to being out of balance.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/28/09 01:43 PM
Hope everyone had a great holiday weekend.

After 2 trips to Home Depot, 2 hours with son helping me get the cutout the exact size, and 3 hours of using the dremel tool to widen the punchout in the junction box, Mrs. Hold's new cooktop got installed Saturday. Felt proud since it took me almost 8 hours to finish. But in the end it seems to work fine.

Although will take some getting used to because instead of setting "6" on our old cooktop meaning that the coils were 60% as hot as on "high", for the new cooktop "6" means that the coils are on full blast for 60% of the time (roughly on for 12 seconds then off for 8). Glad I warned Mrs. Hold because I knew it would freak her out when the burner turned itself off while she was cooking. I had trouble judging how long to cook the pancakes Sunday morning (I figured that is the appropriate way to break in a new cooktop). Mrs. Hold had trouble figuring out how long to pan fry the cutlets Sunday night. But I am confident eventually we will get used to how to keep the pan at the appropriate temperature.

Between getting a $1200 cooktop for $300 on Ebay and not paying to have it installed, this was a huge bargain!
Posted By: nams Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/28/09 01:48 PM
Got to love a bargain. Good work all around, Hold.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 12/28/09 01:56 PM
Wow, what a bargain Hold. I love bargains!

HH, thanks for that book recommendation. Son is placing his next term's textbook order on Amazon today and if our library doesn't have this book, I will add it to the order.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/04/10 04:11 PM
Had a very nice weekend in NYC with Mrs. Hold and the kids. Watching the ball drop from Central Park is much more comfortable than waiting 6 - 8 hours in Times Square. And they do a huge fireworks show in Central Park at midnight (lasted 20 minutes). Amazing to hear the booms bounce back on forth off the tall buildings on both sides of the park.

Took the kids to 2 comedy shows (not standup but humorous). I think they liked being treated like "grown ups".

No sex but that is to be expected given my decisions and behaviors. At least we had good parking Karma - found a free spot Wednesday and a meter spot on Saturday so it only cost $6.50 to park in Manhattan for 4 days!

And the good karma also applied in CT. Got up at 6 am Saturday to drive S15 to 8:00 am basketball practice. We had been complaining for days that the coach scheduled that practice. But thank God he did. I dropped off S15, then went home to get clean socks for Mrs. Hold. House was frigid. Apparently we ran out of oil even though we pay to have them refill monthly. Called the office and they sent someone out right away. Much better to discover the lack of oil at 9:00 am Saturday when everyone is working than at 6:00 pm on Sunday night. Came home to a toasty warm house yesterday afternoon.

Hope everyone had a good weekend and best wishes to all for the New Year.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/04/10 06:39 PM
Came home to a toasty warm house yesterday afternoon.

Good! Versus busted pipes, right? Whew - smile

Did you stay in a hotel with your family?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/04/10 08:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
Good! Versus busted pipes, right? Whew - smile


Exactly, thank the Lord for Saturday basketball practice during vacation.

Quote:
Did you stay in a hotel with your family?


Nope. Sis and BIL live in NYC, and they typically spend vacation week in Florida. So we typically crash at their place.

That is why the weekend was so great. No rent. Only $6.50 to park. NYE in Central Park is free. The improv show was $15 pp and the Liar's Show was $12 pp. Even the all you can eat buffet was only $20 pp (my buddy is a member of a private club and they put on an amazing spread and he can invite guests so the 8 of us went). Then both families went to a 3rd family who has an apt in NYC and spent the day together and ordered pizza for dinner. So a fairly reasonably priced weekend in NYC with 3 nights "out on the town". We like to take the kids into the city so they get used to buses and subways and traffic and jammed sidewalks. We don't want to raise "bumpkins" even though we live in the woods on a road with no sidewalks or street lights.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/04/10 09:04 PM
Parking in NYC: $6.50.

Two shows in NYC: $27 / person.

All-you-can-eat buffet: $20 / person.

Spending NYE with the family and watching the ball drop live from Central Park without maxxing out the credit cards: PRICELESS!!!

Yay for you!
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/04/10 10:55 PM
I love a good deal! But HOLD I feel badly that you are saving money that your wife gets her paws on and spends!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 02:43 PM
Bubbles:

I always appreciate your concern for me. Thank you. But I am choosing this. I want to be with my children. We had a great weekend together in NYC. I had a nice chat with D12 on the way home from swimming practice yesterday, and we walked inside together. S15 helped me set up the PS3 so he and I do not have to fight over Call of Duty time. Much more fun than setting it up alone in my separate apt while he plays at his Mom's. This is what I want.

And just think how much less money Mrs. Hold gets to spend than if I were not so depressed and motivated to maximize my earning potential. She too is paying a heavy price for what she gets.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 03:02 PM
Hold, I love it when you are the Anti-Eeyore!
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 04:15 PM
hold, I have known a lot of men who were so discouraged by they wives that they earned so much less money than they could have, and sometimes intentionally, just to punish their wives.
Posted By: Nanowritersix Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 04:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Retread
hold, I have known a lot of men who were so discouraged by they wives that they earned so much less money than they could have, and sometimes intentionally, just to punish their wives.


rotflmao

Too bad they didn't know about MB so they could have fixed their marriage instead of cutting off their nose to spite their face!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 04:54 PM
Thanks Jayne. Everything is relative. I understand I am seeking secondary payoffs, which is not healthy. Last night I played Call of Duty until very late. In the kitchen on the new HDTV I got Mrs. Hold for her birthday. Well, at least that is the cover story. We all know I really got it so I could play PS3 on it. wink But Mrs. Hold asked several times for a new tv for the kitchen and the old one made a funny buzzing noise that annoyed her as well as being 30 years old and huge and analog and ugly so she is happy to tell herself I got the tv for her. And I got a combo tv/dvd player so she (who watches hundreds of netflix) can watch her DVDs while cooking for the kids without a separate box and more wires cluttering up the kitchen.

Mrs. Hold spent the evening after the kids went to bed alone in our bedroom. She would prefer me to be there. She would prefer I spend time with her rather than the PS3. She would prefer that I make moves on her when I buy her a present so she can consent to sex and then tell herself she is being a good wife. I prefer that things not be arranged the way she prefers.

So for now I choose PS3 and living in denial to working on myself for a better life and a better marriage. I tell myself there is no possibility for improvement. And I am proved correct. I understand it is unhealthy to take more satisfaction from being "right" about my failure than from trying to be successful. But for now, that is how I choose to behave.

Originally Posted By: nanowritersix
Too bad they didn't know about MB so they could have fixed their marriage instead of cutting off their nose to spite their face!


Not everyone who knows about MB fixes their marriages. I find going through life noseless (or more correctly, with less and less nose as I slice parts off) is less painful than what it was like constantly trying and failing to improve my marriage. If anyone is going to cut slivers off my body on a daily basis, I prefer it be me!
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 05:36 PM
Hold, it sounds like you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Your wife may be in the cycle of punishing you for your limiting her spending, or your income; she may be oblivious.

As I said above, and in other threads, I have seen a fair number of marriages destroyed by wives who thought sex 4 or 5 times a year was normal, and acted amazed when their husbands walked out.

If your wife is pleased with the holidays, the weekend, the new stove, went to the bedroom, and wanted you to be there, it sounds like you blew an opportunity to connect with her. You are rejecting her attempt to connect. You must be living in past resentment, rather than the present.

My concurrent response in another thread today:
http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2299147#Post2299147
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 05:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
I agree with what Barbie said. Why not take control and quit giving your wife money? Then force her into treatment. Barbie is right, your wife wants to prance around like "Big Shot Molly"> but it is all fake. Your wife has damaged the family, the kids, and you. And you sit around and take it. I have asked this 100 times from you HOLD. Why not confront your wife and take full control of the finances.


It is because the effort to confront, the will to overcome what trepidation Hold have has to come from "within" himself.

And despite him wanting such changes, he procrastinates and continues to adhere to the "fear" as a validation for staying in the unhealthy and miserable state of his marriage.

It is up to Hold himself to put effort to such changes. Without that, he will be in the same situation as was since 8 years ago?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 06:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Retread
If your wife is pleased with the holidays, the weekend, the new stove, went to the bedroom, and wanted you to be there, it sounds like you blew an opportunity to connect with her. You are rejecting her attempt to connect. You must be living in past resentment, rather than the present.


Yes, exactly. I am living in past resentment. I am comfortable there. I am not comfortable living in the present and trying to connect with her. Too much risk of rejection. She rejected me every night and every morning over the weekend. Maybe she wanted me last night. Maybe not. I don't want to know, because the odds are not in my favor.

If she wanted me last night, most likely it was to lie next to her silent and unmoving. Maybe hold my hand. And then roll over and go to sleep. I do not want that. Without the sex, I find the night together in bed painful rather than pleasant. I am not going to put myself through a painful process just so she can feel connected to me. If she wants me to connect with her, she needs to make that process less painful for me. Which means LOTS more sex. I know it doesn't work that way. I know the SF comes after meeting needs and eliminating love busters. I know I should meet her ENs and hope that motivates her to want to reciprocate. BTDT. Homey don't play that game no mo.

I do not expect my decision to produce a happy marriage or a happy life for me. But it is less painful than back when I was actively trying to meet her needs. I believe that is the best I can hope for. I am aiming to be proved correct. Given all the rejection and failure in my past, I like being able to attain my goals. Even if they are negative ones.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 06:11 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
And just think how much less money Mrs. Hold gets to spend than if I were not so depressed and motivated to maximize my earning potential. She too is paying a heavy price for what she gets.


Isn't that just some passive-aggressiveness on your part. You see the less money you earn as a form of punishment for your wife, instead of you taking absolute control and enforcing boundaries about money and finance?

And as for "depressed and motivated" part, you "let go" of your own free will and control of your happiness based on what your wife does? You put your own happiness 'dependent' on whether you wife meets your needs or not.

I know it's a huge mind hurdle for someone who thinks and values sex as the ultimate validation of love / care / want.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 06:13 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_JM
It is up to Hold himself to put effort to such changes. Without that, he will be in the same situation as was since 8 years ago?


Exactly. I fully expect to be in the same situation 5 years from now. Then we shall see what I choose. I may choose to stay. I may be too old and too tired and too afraid and too set in my ways to summon the effort to change. If so, it will be because I chose this unhealthy and miserable existence. I recognize that. It is on my head.

Originally Posted By: Still_JM
Isn't that just some passive-aggressiveness on your part.


Yes, exactly. I am too wimpy to be overtly aggressive. So I am passive-aggressive instead. Undoubtedly that plays a part in my wife not finding me sexually attractive. Still, knowing that is not enough to motivate me to change.

Originally Posted By: Still_JM
you "let go" of your own free will and control of your happiness based on what your wife does? You put your own happiness 'dependent' on whether you wife meets your needs or not.


Yes, of course I do. I do not want to take responsibility for my life. I would rather put it on her shoulders. Naturally, she resents that, as she should.

Not saying I am mature. I am a mess. And I have given up hope of ever not being a mess. Which pretty much dooms me to continue being a mess. Yikes, look how quickly I fall back to full eeyore mode.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 06:47 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
She rejected me every night and every morning over the weekend. Maybe she wanted me last night. Maybe not. I don't want to know, because the odds are not in my favor.


So you broke your vow to not ask for SF from MrsHold then, six times over the weekend?

I was going to point out that when you invited her (walked past her naked) she loved SF with you. Is that what you meant by she rejected you Friday, Saturday and Sunday, twice a day?

LA
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 07:02 PM
I'm still letting myself get rejected Hold. I lay in bed for 30 min. and finally got up and went down to the couch again to read until I could fall asleep. The cycle just repeats itself once again. Of course she woke up and asked where I was going and said I could turn the light on and read while she slept. WTF??? She knew exactly what was goint on and this morning she wouldn't even look at me.

I have the same thoughts Hold. I wonder if by the time the kids are out, am I going to repress my libido for so long that it will vanish and all I'll have is resentment and will not even care to get out of the M, because I really don't care to have SF at that point with anyone from how repulsive I feel about myself in the SF department.

Face it, some women are like this, just like some men will be repeat cheaters or they'll do their own thing forever without thought to their Ws after their W tried and tried and eventually walked out on them.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 07:03 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
So you broke your vow to not ask for SF from MrsHold then, six times over the weekend?


We spent time in bed each night and morning, because my Sis and BIL have a typical NYC apartment and there was no place else to be while the kids were sleeping in the only other 2 rooms than to be together in the master bedroom.

She made it very clear by rolling away from me, placing pillows between us, and other actions that she was not interested in sex despite the very enjoyable weekend. NYE was very cold and we spent 2 hours outside. We all came back freezing. Mrs. Hold made it clear we were not going to "snuggle for warmth".

In the past, I might have "asked" by rolling toward her, placing my arm over her shoulder while lying next to her, etc. Maybe my hand would "wander". Sometimes I would even summon the courage to verbally ask if she was in the mood (although I know most women find that terribly unattractive, Mrs. Hold has made clear that she prefers an "ask" rather than a "take subject to dispossession"). My actions would give her the chance to move my hand where she wanted it.

I don't do that any longer. Mostly I face away from her. If I face toward her, my hands usually stay on my side of the wall of pillows, comforters, etc. If she moves toward me, my hand may go over her shoulder but it no longer wanders.

Her rejections are subtle. But very real. Close to 2 decades of honing the "radar" to determine whether there is any chance that an "ask" might get a yes have taught me to detect the unmistakable sign that asking would be futile. To me, her displaying those signs is rejection. She knows how I react when we spend pleasant time together. She knows how much I want her. She doesn't have to say the word "no" to communicate her message quite clearly.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 07:37 PM
Seems to me, Hold, that MrsHold meets your EN for Resentment really well...

she works really hard to prove all your assumptions true so you can continue to be right instead of happily married.

She's tenacious, unstoppable, in communicating her rejection to you without words...yours or hers...a rejection artist.

You are so good with words, Hold, probably because you fear hers so much...and she asked for your words, to hear your stuff...and you don't do that because that's where you've been shot down, tormented and denied for years...

and what you fear isn't real in the way that you experience rejection, without words, anyway.

You've perfected your Catch-22, Hold. It's amazing...you are an exceedingly accomplished rejection artist.

And MrsHold holds that mirror for you. She works really hard to ensure you will only see her rejection to protect yourself.

She's very much your ally and accomplice in rejection.

You've mentioned her adroit use of bedclothes to keep and ensure distance...I haven't asked before...does she do this on both sides of herself and at her head, too, like a sleeping nest? Or only delineating your space from hers, period...wide open at the feet, her side of the bed and the head of the bed?

LA
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 08:00 PM
Hold, I've had a hard time pinpointing what bothers me most about your situation, and I think it's that you don't seem to care about your own mental health. I mean...I get why you feel the need to stay for another 6 years. What I don't get is why you lean towards passive aggressiveness versus O&H. I mean...even if being O&H doesn't improve your marriage, at least you'd be true to yourself and in a better, more 'pure' state of mind when the time comes to decide, 6 years from now.

Choosing to be passive aggressive for the next 6 years makes it seem as though you have already decided that you're mental health is dispensable, disposable, and of little consequence - that your personal integrity is of little matter. It seems like you've already chosen to sabotage your chances of being healthy enough to move on.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 08:01 PM
Hi Mud,

Let me tell you there were many nights I would approach my H for sex and he would "not want it" and I would STOMP out of the bedroom to sleep in the guest room and cry.

It was about a year at that stage. The stage when I did not know what to do "after that" to find the solution. There is a solution beyond that point. I am here to tell you about it. But only if she loves you enough to help find it.

What turned the corner for us is when I made a Dr appt with our Dr to see what was up with my husband/s libido. I never felt such hatred toward me for doing that. He told me to never never never ever do that again. The Dr was going to prescribe Viagra, other than that my H was fine. He does have high cholesterol though now.

Then the other turning point was me telling H I was stymied to find a solution and could not live like this anymore. I told him to take a couple days, and think about the problem of lack of sex....with me and come up with a good solution to save our marriage and make us both happy.

The next morning he came to me and told me the solution.

This is sort of how he worded it, " I think this will work. Whenever you want sex, ask me, and I will provide it. Every day if you want it. " I asked, "What about if you do not want sex when I ask?"

He says, "If I dont want sex when you ask, I will provide it for you">

I asked, "You mean if I asked you for sex every day, you could come thru for me?"

He said, "YES">

(You have to know that I accept great hand action and sex toy pleasure as sex so that we have flexibility, as long as I get the big O I am fine)

Then, I tested him out for two weeks asking almost every day. (in a nice cute way of course)

He did what he promised. Every time.

I learned to ask and he learned to give.

We worked it out. You can too. Ask your wife what she would suggest to save your marriage and so the marriage does not become sexless.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 08:20 PM
Bubbles,

Thanks, we've tried just that. We also tried:

If I wear one of these two night gowns. I got excited a couple of days later when she came out of her closet wearing it. Shot down. "I can wear whatever I want and it shouldn't mean a thing."

If I shut the door (we do this maybe 4 nights out the week any way, but what the hell). Shot down the next night. "I shut the door so the light will not bother ds when he's trying to sleep."

If I come to bed naked (only happened 3 nights in the heat of the summer) 3rd night got shot down. "We did it the last two nights." Now she's back to pjs.

THE BIG ONE: "Ask me and I will never refuse again." Bubbles, I got shot down the very first time, got the courage to ask again, shot down. Lol and behold, got the courage to ask again, shot down. The 3rd time I flipped out, she appologized and said yes she was confusing in the past and is still giving me mixed words and actions.

Reading Loving's post woke me up a little. I don't want this resentment people, that's why I came here in the first place. That last THE BIG ONE, was just in the last 3 months, and hurt very bad. She knows I'm vulnerable and yet she does that. It is even more painful than when she went wayward. It's been roughly 8 years and the pain now seems more painful than then, I think mostly because I figured "it happens" and she still wanted the M and so did I. Just the length of time this has gone on has worn me down. Yet again today, I got hit on by an attractive woman- no thankyou!!! I'll deal with it another way. Atleast I've got my looks going for me.
Posted By: Bubbles4U Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 08:27 PM
MUD, you are getting so close to the solution! I can tell you from experiance.

(I did not know this witch of yours went wayward, man that is bad, she has sex with others but not you, that is creepy)

Ride it out, the conflict now. Make her put in writing that if you ask for sex in any way she will provide it with hand, mouth, or otherwise.

Accept a hand job when she does not want the whole thing. Teach her how to please you with hands and mouth so she has a "choice".

The little witch probably used hands, mouth and other things on her other lover. I dislike these cheaters so much.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 08:57 PM
She has done the hand, mouth etc. She's not averse to that. It's the trouble to do it, I think, that gets to her. Mel had said she might love me, but not in love with me. I know what she means, and honestly if how much I've put in she still feels that way she can find someone who she will be in love with. She knows how much I've changed for our M, and acknowledges the pain she's caused, but she is so so reactionary. We'll SF and then she slides b/c she thinks I should be happy for x amount of days or something. I appreciate the effort, but I want my confidence back. Truly if I had what I had for the first 5 years of our M confidence wise, I could handle rejection again, but not at this point.

The writing it down is a fantastic idea and we did it, she scribbled fast and furious and in anger. She said, "Do you want me to write it down?" I called her bluff and said yes. She wigged out and scribbled in huge writing. I threw it away b/c she was so angry when she did it and I felt bad for calling her bluff. I think if we sat down and we talked and wrote it down in love, I could accept it. The only problem is now I'll have back up and she will hate it with the demons of hell if I pulled it out, so I'll ponder that some more thanks.

Yeah, it was tough and very odd. I don't have that puking feeling anymore when I think about it. Vomit would just come, never had such weird feelings before and worked very very hard at putting it out of my head, so don't make me vomit with the, "she probably did it with other men." It was one OM, and it torments her if those years are brought up, and she has never disclosed. I'm ok, just want a great M, not an average normal one. I don't strive for normal.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 09:25 PM
In one of the other threads about relationship books, I mentioned a book I found at a beach house that we rented in 2008. The author and her husband had rented it not long before, and she had left several copies of her book, "The 10-Minute Sexual Solution" there. I was skeptical, but curious, of such a short book, but it was buy a clinical psychologist who specializes in sexual problems, more than just marriage. It was actually pretty good, a lot like MB: cut through and skip past all the causation, and get to solving the problems by taking a set of steps in a new direction.

I posted this in the Low SF Desire thread, too, since TheMud and HOTI are posting both places.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 09:27 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
You've mentioned her adroit use of bedclothes to keep and ensure distance...I haven't asked before...does she do this on both sides of herself and at her head, too, like a sleeping nest? Or only delineating your space from hers, period...wide open at the feet, her side of the bed and the head of the bed?


How did you know? The covers are all toward me. Generally part of her body remains uncovered (which part varies). No covers on the side toward the edge of the bed. Pillows piled high toward me. Low toward the edge of the bed.

For years she said this was about my breath. I used every technique I could find to deal with this. Brush teeth, tongue and roof of mouth. Floss. Mouthwash (tried many kinds, herbal as well as commerical). Chew gum all day. For several years I avoided any food that contained onions or garlic or scallions or cruciferous vegetables for fear it would taint my breath. Even when the smell was not bad she would complain about the volume of air I expel (I am a mouth breather). We have a ceiling fan that is on every night so she can feel the breeze but she cannot tolerate the feel of my breath on her skin. I sleep with silicone inserts in my nostrils to control snoring. They help reduce the volume of air problem because I breath more through my nostrils and less through my mouth. Still, the pillows are piled up toward me.

Despite my voluminous posting, I no longer come here and document each and every episode of rejection. I mentioned last weekend's rejection only in the context of justifying my conclusion that frequent requests on my part would be met with frequent rejection. The evidence for that is overwhelming, and not only in the distant past but recently as well.

She is generally OK if I move my head toward her thigh while facing the tv so she knows that there is nothing sexual intended and I am just looking for Affection. But if my hand moves toward her from my side of the bed it frequently gets swatted away before I can get near her, even if it is aimed at a non-erogonous zone. Except her elbow. She has a very pointed bony elbow. Unlike the rest of her body which is soft and round and volunptuous. We have a standing joke when she wears a short sleeved nightie that she is flaunting her incredible elbows. And I make a big deal of finding them irresistible - unlike all those soft fleshy parts elsewhere. She is usually pretty good about allowing me to briefly fondle her elbow and verbally sing its praises.

Originally Posted By: Soolee
Choosing to be passive aggressive for the next 6 years makes it seem as though you have already decided that you're mental health is dispensable, disposable, and of little consequence - that your personal integrity is of little matter. It seems like you've already chosen to sabotage your chances of being healthy enough to move on.


You describe how I feel perfectly. I have given up on ever being mentally healthy.

I feel like my life is already over and I am just waiting for it to end. Trying to keep my job until the kids graduate college and can live their own lives. I am not preparing myself for the next relationship because I do not expect to have a next relationship. What would be the point? I don't want to have more kids. I will never marry again because I am terrified of the prospect that even if I somehow magically found a woman willing to have sex with me, the sex would stop as soon as I said "I do". What exactly is there to move on TO? The only point of leaving Mrs. Hold is so I don't have to look into the face of the person who rejected me all those years. But we all know that is not a real solution. Because I will still be looking at that face. Every time I look in the mirror.

Thjere is no point in trying to convince me not to be eeyore. I am determined to remain eeyore. I am sorry I responded to jayne with more than "thanks".
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/05/10 09:27 PM
thanks!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/10 10:26 PM
In the vein of LAs frequent suggestion that I be open to change in Mrs. Hold:

Both D12 and S15 will need oral surgery in the coming few years. Both have impacted wisdom teeth that will need to come out. Upon Mrs. Hold hearing this news, she called me to discuss how we would pay for these procedures and whether finances would affect the timing. I repeat: she called me BEFORE scheduling the procedures or giving consent to the dentists to do the work.

As it happens, we will need to review the procedures with our medical insurer and then decide whether to handle the cost through dental insurance or by increasing our flexible spending account. In any event, the procedures cannot be done before July when our firm's "health year" starts. Which means that the preliminary visits for x-rays etc should not be done before May or June (so the teeth don't move before the procedure).

Mrs. Hold was very pleased with herself that she called me. She said something like "see, I am learning. I did not go ahead and book the appointments for whenever was most convenient for me and leave you the task of paying the bills with no notice they were coming."

So I wanted to give her kudos for changing. Perhaps I too can change. But please do not leave posts encouraging me to do so. That will just get my contrary nature perked up to oppose change. Let us leave this as congratulations to Mrs. Hold.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/10 10:35 PM
Congratulations to Mrs. Hold!!!!

<and... that's it. Full Stop. Crickets chirping. lol>

(p.s. - Boy, I'm so talkative, even saying that I'm not gonna say anything more takes about 4 sentence fragments and a p.s.!)
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/10 11:12 PM
(psssst....Jayne.)

quit while you're ahead.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/06/10 11:13 PM
lol

Sorry hold! I really did mean the congratulations. smile
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/10 12:20 AM
Congrats to Mrs. Hold. smile

Impacted teeth...

(I can remember getting mine and husband's done under my dental insurance, and the big deciding factor at that time for some reason, was that if they had to cut into the gum it was covered because it was considered surgery versus mere extraction.)
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/07/10 01:48 AM
Owie, poor kids. And congrats to Mrs Hold for learning to do the right thing. I think she has been listening to you a little bit Hold. smile
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 02:56 PM
Last night Mrs. Hold said I smelled nice. I tried a new brand of antiperspirant this week because it was on sale. Guess this will be my brand as long as they keep selling it.

Oh, and she joined Weight Watchers. She has gained a few pounds recently, and she is accumulating the minor aches and pains that are an understandable by-product of going to the gym 6 or 7 days a week. Since she cannot reasonably increase her exercise level, she'll have to work on her food intake. Hence the Weight Watchers. Please send positive mental vibrations her way. In any event, she is down 40 pounds from this time last year. Which I think is an incredible accomplishment.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 05:32 PM
Hey Hold, congrats to the Mrs.

I also have an issue with aches and pains associated with exercise. The older I get, the worse they get! I'm now in the habit of popping Tylenol or an Ibuprofen before I go to the gym and sometimes again before I go to bed so I don't wake up in the middle of the night with my joints on fire. I am afraid to go to the doc to ask, but I wouldn't be surprised if this 52 year old body, even though it's in really good shape--is experiencing some arthritis. So I sympathize with Mrs. Hold. Her aches and pains might not even be weight related but age related. That probably won't make her feel any better either....doesn't do much for me!

My H only wears unscented anti-persperant but I never complained about his smell. In fact, he's always smelled great to me---just him...without the aid of anything. Although I'll let you in in a little secret. Victoria's Secret has this after shave balm for men and the I love, love, love, LOVE the scent...as do most of my female friends who have purchased it for their husbands.
Posted By: TheAntiChick Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 05:45 PM
It sounds like she's really trying to improve, which is good. I hope she keeps it up.

And like the others I'll leave it at that.

I also should be getting back on WW (I do online). I had lost a total of about 45 pounds from my top weight over the last couple of years, and 25 down from before my knee surgery Feb '08. Over the holidays, I've put 13 back on. I think I'll follow Mrs. Hold's example, and it just so happens that my start day on WW has always been Friday. I had junk for breakfast, so that's not great, but I'll log my points and get going again anyway! smile
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 05:50 PM
Hold...so you like being smelled?

You like pleasing her nose?

And she's catching herself reversing a tad on her weight plan and doing something about it. Wow. Incredible isn't an overstatement, IMO.

And she wants your admiration...she likes that she changed her own MO...which is how real change happens.

She likes your smell. And you're going to stock up. Could be, the more she's pleased with herself, the more she'll be pleased with you, too.

I wonder when you'll begin to love your inner rebel instead of use him. Hmmm.

Just a thought.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 06:35 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
I wonder when you'll begin to love your inner rebel instead of use him. Hmmm.


????????????? dontknow
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 07:02 PM
Is that post like a dog when he tilts his head to the side and his ears perk up, perplexed but interested?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 08:19 PM
Yes
Posted By: Mark1952 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/08/10 08:33 PM
Shabbat Shalom!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 02:47 PM
I had a nice weekend. Both nights we watched tv together and I fell asleep with my head on her thigh. Not sure how she would rate the weekend, having to shove me off her at the end of the night. But I did purchase ingredients and cook dinner both nights from Weight Watchers approved recipes, and both dishes came out well, so I did create some value for her (I am told marketing and cooking dinner are stressful times for people on diets).
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 04:59 PM
Ooh! Ooh! I have an entire notebook of recipes that I got on the WW website and printed out. Great stuff!
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 05:07 PM
Another pretty good weekend! Yay!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 05:16 PM
Originally Posted By: catperson
Ooh! Ooh! I have an entire notebook of recipes that I got on the WW website and printed out. Great stuff!


Mrs. Hold really likes the stuff from Cooking Light. Their stuff is slightly more "exotic" than the WW recipes. The WW pot roast had potatoes and carrots and green beans. The CL version has zucchini instead of green beans, a dash of red wine and alot of garlic. YMMV.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 05:34 PM
Are they free recipes?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 06:40 PM
If you go to cookinglight.com, they have a recipe finder on the pull down menu under the "food" tab. I typed provencal into the search box and one of the items halfway down the list was the provencal beef stew recipe I made yesterday. Looks like they are free!

Hmmm, seems like they take you to myrecipes.com, which supports several food magazines and web sites. So be careful. Somehow I doubt that all the recipes from Southern Living are as low fat and low calorie as the ones from Cooking Light!
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/11/10 10:36 PM
I absolutely love fat, I eat the fat of everyone's steak. They're all, "yuck, you're going to put that on yourself and have high cholesterol." I must be a freak of nature, b/c I eat fat like there's no tomorrow and my cholesterol is fine and as for being fat, well not even close!

You have to do exactly the opposite of the experts. Look everyone is on low calorie, carbs up the yang diets and yet US is getting bigger and bigger. Why, b/c we spike our insulin by eating carbs and get sick etc. We don't work off those calories even though they say they are easier to burn off. Not true, in my experience, teaching your body to burn fat is way, way more efficient.

Look up mark sissons site. His pictures look photo shopped, but that's him, they guy eats fats and meats. I use bacon grease as much as possible. That's something I never would have done in HS or college/grad. I use to take off cheese on pizza to avoid the fat from the cheese, no I layer it with all the meats... yum!
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 12:22 AM
"Somehow I doubt that all the recipes from Southern Living are as low fat and low calorie as the ones from Cooking Light!"

rofl!!!

What is it that Paula Deen says? Something about "Butter makes everything taste better!" I'm trying to think of an exception, and nothing comes to mind...

I tried googling "Paula Deen quote butter" and came across the following:

something about deep-fried butter

OTOH I'm a big fan of the Mediterranean Diet. And French Girls Don't Get Fat. A couple of years ago I was baking tons of sourdough bread, eating bread and olive oil, cooking with olive oil and everything from scratch; also eating a lot of sweets, usually with a sourdough component - pancakes, Amish coffeecake, cinnamon buns, etc.

Now that we've moved into our new house and H claimed the kitchen, he cooks with way less butter, way less olive oil... but more "processed" breads, sauces, sweets.

We've all gained weight. TEEF
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 12:30 AM
Yep, it happens every time. Processed refined sugars and flours. Just stick to the basics:

Candy
Candy corn
Candy canes
Sugar
and syrup

(from Elf)
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 02:49 PM
Did you guys see that Pepsi is now marketing Throwback Pepsi as a healthy alternative because it contains REAL SUGAR?!?!

Can you imagine what that means about the "modern" sweeteners they use instead of sugar?!?!

On a more serious note, we went through an Atkins phase in our household. Twice I believe. Never worked for Mrs. Hold. Then again, nothing else did either until she joined the contest last year. So I imagine if a combination of exercise and Weight Watchers doesn't work, we will probably try something like Atkins or South Beach again.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 03:12 PM
The problem with diets is that people expect them to work forever...even when they stop following them. A good diet is nothing more than a sensible eating plan that works for your body, your exercise level, your metabolism. A meeting with a good nutrionist, working with a good trainer and adherence to the program will work for everyone.

It's like Marriage Builders. You have to practice it everyday. You might fall off the wagon a bit during periods of high stress, holidays, etc., but then you take an assessment and get back on program.

I've never had a weight problem but needed to drop at least that last 10lbs after each kid, PLUS get back into shape...physically, aerobically and mentally. It took the better part of 8-10 months each time. My weight would go back to pre-pregnancy within 2-3 months...but it was closer to a year before I felt like 'me' again.

After kid #3, my thyroid crapped out on me and even though I still don't have a weight issue, it's a daily battle to keep my body from packing on the pounds and I'm still about 7lbs heavier than I'd like to be...looking at the scale. But I'm the same clothes size I was in my mid-20's. I think all the working out, weight training, aerobic training and nutrition management counter-acts what the scale says. My body fat percentage is lower!

My point is that anything in moderation is ok.

Balance out protein, carbs and fats for your body and you will be fine. Get body fat and BMI measured and go by that over what the scale says.

Have you seen the new food pyramid? It's not really a pyramid anymore and it definitely speaks to a higher level of protein and even fats in our diet than previous pyramids.

BTW carbs? EVIL! I only eat them sparingly and at that, only whole grains and never after 4PM.
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 03:15 PM
funny you should mention that.

Just yesterday me and my H were in costco and picked up a case of limited edition coke. It was in those old fashioned green tinted glass bottles. The sign said "made in mexico with Real cane sugar!"

I supposed they were referring to the "high fructose corn syrup" that they put in everything these days. Some reports I've heard blame the obesity epidemic on the corn syrup. MY FIL was reading some article to me about the evils of it a couple of years ago.

But then you get the ad campaign saying that HFCS is just like any other sugar product - trying to reassure everyone I suppose. So like a lot of things I have no idea what the actual TRUTH is health-wise.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 03:57 PM
OH:

Yes, my wife views this as a lifestyle and not a diet. However, everyone's case is different. My wife did not need to lose 10 pounds after each pregnancy, she needed to lose over 50. She lost 40 of it after S15. She lost none of it after D12. Then piled on more pounds. Until she did the contest last year. She had about 60 to lose when she started. Not to get back to her pre-baby weight, which we all agree is an unreasonable goal. But to get to where she could reasonably be at this stage of her life.

BMI is not a good measure for her. She is short but broad shouldered and has a solid ribcage and is curvaceous. So she is always going to be high on the BMI scale. We go by percentage of body fat, and even there she will be on the high side because she will never be stick thin. Trust me, even at 129 she will still be more like Salma Hayek than Kate Moss. She is always going to have hips and thighs and buns and boobs. Which is great. That is how I like it! Curvy. But she still has more belly than she wants, and to get rid of the belly some of the hips and thighs and buns and boobs will have to go too. Boo hoo! I kid her when I lay my head on her thigh that she is going to be all skin and bones and no longer be a good pillow.

She already watches what she eats. She exercises every day. She lost 40 pounds. But then she hit a plateau. Has not lost any weight in months. She cannot reasonably exercise more, as she is developing aches and pains from the constant effort. She is going to the doctor tomorrow to address those.

So if she is going to lose more weight, she needs help. She is not going to WW to diet. She is going for the encouragement of weekly weigh ins and a group of people who will support her in trying to make further changes to her lifestyle. The entire family is supporting her as we are all going to be eating healthier along with her. I hope to lose a few pounds as well, as I have gained 5 pounds since I stopped running. My wife finds that the structure and discipline of WW appeals to her. She liked the structure of the contest. She is hoping WW will give her some of that back.

Take what works and leave the rest.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 04:14 PM
This is where looking at shaking things up can help. WW is great for good tips on that. ONE visit to a sports nutritionist/health nutritionist might also be well worth the $$$ (and even covered by your insurance).

Lots of people plateau. It's the body's response to all that weight loss. The answer is patience...and shaking things up. Things I've done in the past when I've hit a plateau (they don't have to be weight related..mine have come in the form of BMI, body fat percentage, muscle development, and yes, weight), is to change up my eating for a week or two (increase/decrease protein, carbs, fats) and change my workout routine. Cut back on cardio, increase weight training. Switch out what I do...both cardio and weights. If I've been running alot, I switch to the bike. If I've been doing both of those, I get in the pool. If I've been on the elliptical, I get on the stairmaster. Or I mix it all up if I've been doing too much of one thing.

Same with weights. If I've been going for more lbs added to my weight routine, I cut back and increase reps. Try new routines. Free weights vs the machines. Take a class at the gym that I haven't taken before.

How about Pilates? Yoga? Great things to add to a workout routine that won't stress your joints.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 04:25 PM
OH:

She actually does a nice mix of exercise, not all the same thing. Sometimes spinning. Sometimes yoga. Sometimes cardio-sculpt. I do think she needs to maybe add some time in the pool (now that she is a size 8 she no longer feels so embarrassed to be in a bathing suit) or something else that is more whole-body related than machines in the gym or classes in the yoga / cardio room. But I think that will have to wait until after the visit to the doctor tomorrow to get a better idea why her shoulder is bothering her and what can be done. D12 gets PT on her knee. Maybe Mrs. Hold will need to get some shoulder work done.

As for nutrition, they had a nutritionist talk to the contestants last year. And we have had meetings with nutritionists for D12 who is overweight and has many food allergies. So in our case, it is not a lack of knowledge but a lack of willpower that is the issue. Hence the WW. They do a good job of reinforcing self-discipline.

I also help. I make sure to buy salad greens every trip to the market. Mrs. Hold doesn't love them and rarely buys them herself. But if I buy them and put a bowl of greens on the table with dinner, she usually takes some. She is generally pleased as it helps her feel full and she has some zero calorie dressings she likes. Whereas I have dropped talk of the carrots and celery that are 0 points because I know she doesn't like them and resents my suggesting them. But salad she is open to being "helped" to include. She sees that if she adds salad to dinner she is less likely to need a midnight bowl of mini-wheats.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 04:34 PM
Hold:

I've had 3 kids; I empathize with your wife on the belly thing. I don't think my stomach will ever be what it was pre-pregnancy.

OTOH, my trainer is 50, also the mother of 3 kids and has a washboard stomach. I will never look like her, but I've had tremendous success with following her plan of 200 ab crunches a day. Yes, I said a day. She's got a variety of various torture...um I mean...exercise techniques that work every muscle there from upper abs to lower abs to obliques. I started with 50 a day and worked my way up to 200.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:18 PM
OH - I'd love to hear what exercises she's doing for her stomach when you have time.

Hold - Are you where it's cold right now? Just wondering because man - my lower back and a few fingers are really bothering me this year since just after Christmas, when the temperatures really dipped, and I'm wondering if this weather has anything to do with the joint pain. This is the first year (that I can remember) where I'm bothered by the freezing temperatures.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:20 PM
Hold...I also wanted to mention that there are some skin tightening lotions (Nivea?) that may help her if she's interested. The smell isn't wonderful, but it isn't horrible, and it may improve the elasticity.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:20 PM
Be very careful of your delivery, though!!!
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:30 PM
To get washboard stomach is not about crunches or a certain exercise, it's fat loss. You can do crunches until the cows come home and not see a thing.

To rev the metabolism and burn tons of calories the best are multijoint movements, ie. the more muscle used over a period of time will burn more than say lifting 20lbs until you can't lift it anymore. That is why I like crossfit. I gives you the routine and challenges you by timing it, so you are taxing yourself when you do it. I literally have an exercise day where the workout lasts 6 minutes and I'm exhausted.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:40 PM
I agree Mud, but it's still different for women. It's not just fat loss. When you have your entire body stretched obscenely out of shape for nine months then rinse and repeat that several times...well muscle tone is just not there.

And it's not really just abs. It's all about having strong back muscles to support those abs, too.

Soolee, I can't explain the various ab crunches here. My trainer has a video on her website and if I can get permission from her (and the mods here) to post a link, I'll do it.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:42 PM
OMG - I just watched a crossfit workout on youtube, and I think I'd probably have a heart attack on the first try. LOL
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:51 PM
My trainer takes a lot from crossfit. And body combat, though sometimes that can be a bit boring.

ETA: When I say "crunches", I'm not talking about just sit-ups or standard crunches, though some of those are cycled through there. It's an entire complex routine of small amounts of intense reps focused on a one group of muscles (not your entire abs) and then rotated around side to side, up, down, back, front, etc. That's where the number '200' comes in.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 07:54 PM
Soolee,

It is tough, but I started by using less weight, less repetitions, and less sets. If you watched the girl and guy doing the thrusters and pull ups, yeah I can do that now in 6:50, but the first time was 19 minutes with less weight. And I really thought I was in good shape before. It challenged/s me so much I now make it a 2-3x/wk thing. They suggest 3 days on 1 day off, but I tried that and it killed me with all the running I do, so I do less now.

OH,

I agree it's gotta be tough on women, no doubt after having kids. It really has to be a goal, but crossfit is so incredible in it's ability to give you a workout that you can do at home under 1 hour. Imagine the freed up time of not having to get ready, drive wait for a machine or whatever then drive home.

There's been days I get up take water and coffe down to my home gym, listen to news warm up, and be done in a total 25 minutes.

I've done triathlons, ultramarathons, adventure racing and I can tell you that NOTHING has given my metabolism a boost like those workouts. I've gone into races (usually place in atleast the top 20% if not 5%) thinking I was in shape and did well, but I am as fast at a 5k race now as I was in HS. That is all from the strength I gained from xfit. I was quite sure my speed days were behind me, but not anymore. Xfit has given me an edge by helping me crosstrain and drop body fat (extra weight in race) giving me the strength and confidence to push.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:03 PM
So, let's say all I have at home are 2.5 pound weights and 5 pounds weights. Maybe I could get one of those bars to do pull ups and put it in a doorway.

I could just keep repeating those two exercises and build on that, and it would speed up my metabolism and help me burn more fat? Would that be considered a very scaled down version of crossfit exercising? Just wondering.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:03 PM
I also have a treadmill.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:15 PM
I am very very opposed to artificial sweeteners. Yes, I consider the things I make with Real Sugar and Real Butter to be way healthier than less-sweetened, low-fat cookies, and the sugar-free yogurt the in-laws buy. It takes less to fill you up, too.

Fortunately H feels the same way I do about Real Sugar and Real Butter (and Extra Virgin Olive Oil! Can't forget the EVOO!) - except the amounts. He uses way less. but weighs more. wink
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:16 PM
Diet and exercise talk always fascinates me because my dad is an exercise and wellness physiologist. He has seen lots of fads and fashions come and go for decades, but the same ideas always hold true:

Burn more calories than you eat; or eat less calories than you burn
Keep the metabolism going - diet without exercise is asking for more fat after the "diet" is over
Fat content matters
Cardio is king
Weights build strength and endurance - if you want bulk, go for less reps and more weight; if you want linear build - go for less weight and more reps
Never - never - cut out an entire food group
Ant diet that uses a drastic change in body chemistry to give you quick results is asking for trouble

One of the best nutritional diets is the one recommended for diabetics.

I followed the above several years ago, and I lost 35 pounds and kept it off for quite awhile - until I began evil bipolar meds and stopped walking (it was a trigger for H)
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:17 PM
Yes it would be scaled down!!!!!!!! Very good!!!!!!

And it would work!!!!!!!!

If you get on their site and click on the message board then hit (I think exercises or WOD) highlighted on the top will say body weight WOD or work outs of the day. This is body weight exercises using pushups, pullups, dips (chair), body squats, lunges, burpees, jumps, jump rope, sit ups and back extensions.

The whole idea of the crossfit is to never do the same workout with in an 18 day period. It doesn't let your body adapt.

Ex: if you did 15 pushups today then tomorrow and on and on, you would find that eventually you could do 100 in a row with no problem, but your body would adapt and it would be "easy" for your body to do those 15 pushups say 1 year from now.

A typical body weight day:
5 rounds for time of:
25 squats
15 pushups
20 sit ups
20 back extentions

You do this without rest- just keep going as fast as poss from the squats all the way to back ext. then start another round. Doing this with rest would be easy, but for time it kills.

The next day will be:
3 rounds of:
20 pull ups
100 jump ropes
10 lunges each leg

Now if you can't do a pull up, you put a chair under it and jump so your chin goes over it, then lower slowly. After doing this for awhile you'll be able to do pull ups!

I have my sister doing these body weight wod (apparently she's gained a lot) and I'm training my nephew to run faster.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:21 PM
l2,

Your dad is exactly right!

My parents do these ridiculous 90 day plans and they work. My W and I live those 90 day plans yearly though.

It's not rocket science, it has to be turned into a life style.

I'll argue for and against cardio and weights though. I've learned in the last year by experience. Also I eat more fat than I use to and I keep getting leaner.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:21 PM
For those engineers and other techies/science-minded folks, I highly recommend reading The Hacker's Diet.

It's almost as simple as "Burn more calories than you consume." The monkey wrench is that your metabolism can change. The Hacker's Diet discusses the ever-dreaded "plateau" in terms of needing to reset the "set point", the weight which your body tries to maintain through metabolism rates, cravings, etc.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:38 PM
Originally Posted By: jayne241
I am very very opposed to artificial sweeteners. Yes, I consider the things I make with Real Sugar and Real Butter to be way healthier than less-sweetened, low-fat cookies, and the sugar-free yogurt the in-laws buy. It takes less to fill you up, too.

Fortunately H feels the same way I do about Real Sugar and Real Butter (and Extra Virgin Olive Oil! Can't forget the EVOO!) - except the amounts. He uses way less. but weighs more. wink


I'm using agave nectar, and vegan 'butter'. Both natural plant-based foods. Interesting side convo re the Bible: this is my third week of vegan eating, and our pastor read something from Genesis where God said that he gave Adam and Eve all of the plants that bear seed and all of the fruits that bear seed for them to eat. I commented that God meant for us to be vegan. smile H said that he gave us animals to eat, too, so we looked it up and God (finally) gave us animals as food at the time of the flood. I just thought that was interesting.
Posted By: Tawandabelle Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:48 PM
My biological parents are both Seventh Day adventists. They have both stated that if we held to all the Old Testament rules of eating, we would be healthier. I am not one who does that, but I can see how it could be true. (I confess I can't imagine life without bacon or shrimp!)
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 08:52 PM
All I can say about eating vegan is that I feel AMAZING. Alert, energetic, just great all over. But I had the flu for two weeks prior, so my perspective might be skewed. smile
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 09:57 PM
Another way to do pullups:

Take two folding chairs. Position them about 18" apart. Put a dowel over the chair part. (you need someone to hold the dowel now). Having someone hold the ends of dowel secure, lay on your back, grip the bar in pull-up postion and lift your shoulders and upper back off the floor and your chin over the bar.

It sounds easy but it's very difficult.

Themud: Sometimes I wonder about just ditching the gym. I don't have a home gym but see example above..between all the home-made examples (hurdles, ladders, chairs, dowels, etc.,), I can fashion a pretty good "bowflex"! But I love to spin...I ride my bike outside in the good weather but I love not wearing a helmet and having my bike workout set to music occasionally too...why I love to spin. I enjoy the pool (don't have one of those at home..). And I really like Pilates classes. The 'mat' style Pilates...I know enough to do at home. But my gym has all the big equipment too.

So if I gave up the gym, I'd have to find another place to do those things when the urge hit.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 10:25 PM
Another way to do pullups, too: get a resistance band and sling it over something high and sturdy--placing a hook high on a wall will work, if you don't wish to tempt a drapery rod or ceiling fan. Then you pull DOWN, instead of pulling yourself UP. Works the same. Our routine involves a lot of pull-ups, and I do mine on the bowflex, pulling down.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 11:00 PM
Yes, I just recently heard someone point that out as well - not just the humans, but I think all the animals in the beginning of Genesis were vegetarians/vegans, as in, only eating plants.

Another interesting observation: it was after they ate the forbidden fruit that animals were first killed for clothing.

(ETA: Although I just noticed, "Abel kept flocks." And apparently killed them also.)
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 11:06 PM
Originally Posted By: jayne241

Another interesting observation: it was after they ate the forbidden fruit that animals were first killed for clothing.


I gotta wonder about the first person who said, "Hm, check out that cow. I think I wanna wear that." lol

I also recently read that humans are the only species that drink the milk of other species. And I thought, it's not that we're the only ones who DO, it's that we're the only ones who CAN. laugh
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/12/10 11:09 PM
Actually, that isn't true, about humans being the only species.

Ants "milk" aphids.

For real! laugh

(Also, barn cats won't turn away from a squirt!)

(Although your statement reminds me of a quote I thought was attributed to Mark Twain: "Humans are the only animals who cry... or need to."
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 12:25 AM
Hold,

Has she looked at that xp90 or whatever? That is based on the crossfit, and is actually crossfit in a box.

I have one friend that felt he had to buy a package. He was really trimming dow, but stubbed his toe and even though it's healed now he hasn't resumed the workouts or diet. His poor W wants him to slim down for attraction and health.
Posted By: Happy2CU Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 12:26 AM
Hi Jayne, I think the Mark Twain quote is "Man is the only animal that blushes. Or needs to."
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 12:28 AM
I'm doing P90X, and it's awesome. Easy to adjust to skill level.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 12:30 AM
cwm,

THATS CROSSFIT!
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 12:46 AM
*blushes*, that's right!!!

blush
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 12:48 AM
She wouldn't want to do P90X unless she could find a group to join her. She likes the camaraderie of going to the gym and seeing familiar faces. It is part of her ritual. And helps her motivate. Thanks for the suggestion though.

Might work for me!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 03:33 PM
This is where we are. Look at the following e-mail exchange:

Message #1:
From: Sears <sears@sears.com>
To: Holdingontoit
Sent: Tue, Jan 12, 2010 9:08 am
Subject: Don't wait another minute! Come find your right bra size at Sears Bra Fitting Event

Message #2:
From: Holdingontoit
To: Mrs. Hold
Sent: Tue, Jan 12, 2010 6:10 pm
Subject: Fwd: Don't wait another minute! Come find your right bra size at Sears Bra Fitting Event

Somehow I think the wrong one of us got this message. Otherwise, I need to go on a strict diet to reduce my man-boobs!

Message #3:
From: Mrs. Hold
To: Holdingontoit
Sent: Tue, Jan 12, 2010 7:10 pm
Subject: Re: Don't wait another minute! Come find your right bra size at Sears Bra Fitting Event

I LUV your man-boobs smile


If we were getting along well. With positive love bank balances. I would feel loved by receiving that message. But in my current state of withdrawal. I feel nothing. Except a vague sense of regret that I don't feel anything positive. I feel so lonely. Which is all in my head. But not lonely enough to change my behavior.

Mrs. Hold was pleasant last night when I first came home. But snippy later after I played PS3 in the kitchen. She wants me to come be with her. But doesn't want to have to ask for it. Just like me and sex. We are so well matched to drive each other crazy! Unfortunately, not in a good way.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 03:52 PM
She's tossing stones into the creek. Not enough yet to be visible from the surface...

... but if you don't purposefully kick them away, they may accumulate.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 04:20 PM
I we were getting along well. With positive love bank balances. I would feel loved by receiving that message. But in my current state of withdrawal. I feel nothing. Except a vague sense of regret that I don't feel anything positive. I feel so lonely. Which is all in my head. But not lonely enough to change my behavior.

Hold...I think if you were in a true state of withdrawal, you might not even feel the regret. How much exclusive time do you spend with your wife - like maybe taking a walk and talking or sitting somewhere quiet with very little other distractions? Can you see yourself just doing this to do it and removing any pressure off yourself to feel anything? Stop analyzing how you feel? Just to see what happens after several attempts?
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 04:31 PM
T/J (sorry)

My trainer just told me she uses a lot of the Crossfit program as well as the P90X stuff.

I'm thinking about ordering the P90X.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 05:25 PM
Hold,

I'm there with you. Complements don't go very far.

OH,

Don't waste your money on the p90x. Buy a pull up bar, jump robe and a 10lb kettle ball and you'll be set to do the body weight xfit and you can scale down or up, unless you feel you "need" a program, just hate to see people do that when xfit is free.

If you do buy the p90x, don't just follow it for 90 days, cycle through it again once you are done etc.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 05:54 PM
Mud:

I've got a bunch of questions. I dont' want to hijack Hold's thread. I will post in "Other Topics" in a bit...ok? I'll put your name in the thread title.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 06:04 PM
OK,

Hold, do you think W would have had SF with you then? I know that exercise can increase ones testosterone even in women, which might increase their libido. Thoughts?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 06:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
How much exclusive time do you spend with your wife - like maybe taking a walk and talking or sitting somewhere quiet with very little other distractions? Can you see yourself just doing this to do it and removing any pressure off yourself to feel anything? Stop analyzing how you feel? Just to see what happens after several attempts?


I currently spend almost zero time alone with my wife in recreational activities. Am I willing to spend more time with her? No. Hurts too much when it does not lead to sex. I understand that I am DJing my wife. I am predicting that she has not changed and will not change and that my past experience will be repeated. I understand it is possible we might spend time together and she might react differently than she did in the past. I am not willing to take the risk that she won't. I am confortable in my Withdrawal.

Which is exactly where I am. Unwilling to move to the state of Conflict. If I were willing to spend time with her and then attempt to POJA more sex, that would create Conflict.

I insist that she Plan A me. She meet my needs. With no expectation of immediate reciprocation. In the hope that I will eventually choose to meet her needs in return. Not POJA, where I brainstorm and negotiate ways for both of us to be enthusiastic currently. I am not going to be enthusiastic about having to "earn" SF.

I know that is not how Dr. Harley says it works. Eliminate LBs. Work to meet her needs. And the sex will follow. Not for us. Not after 8 years of counselling and me working to meet her needs and getting nothing in return. Either she shows herself willing to provide SF whether or not her needs are getting met or I continue to play PS3.

The good news is that I am getting older. My sex drive is way down. I don't miss it as much. I still hold it against her that it doesn't happen more often. But the absence is not as debilitating. I used to play computer games and spend much of the time fretting about the lack of sex. The games were not sufficiently distracting. Now I play PS3 for hours and I do not give a single thought to Mrs. Hold or to sex.

In the past I missed her and reached out to her and got rejected. Now, she comes to visit me at the console and I am curt with her. These days, I prefer the "sure thing" of rejecting her to the risky and messy process of negotiating to get my needs met. I still don't get my needs met. But at least I don't get overtly rejected.

My "game plan" is to wait until the kids are grown. Then give our marriage another chance. At that point she could not hold custody of the kids over my head. So I can see myself negotiating on a more level playing field.

I understand by ignoring her I am taking the chance that she will choose to divorce me before the kids leave. I see that as a very low risk. I don't totally ignore her. We talk every day. I bought her the cooktop and the new tv. It is just at night after the kids are asleep that I avoid being alone with her in the bedroom. I don't imagine she will hold that against me enough to divorce over.

Originally Posted By: themud
Hold, do you think W would have had SF with you then? I know that exercise can increase ones testosterone even in women, which might increase their libido. Thoughts?


I was at the office and she was home. No opportunity for sex. Do I think she might have more sex with me than in the past because she exercises more? Maybe. Am I willing to "woo" her in the hopes she will? No. I am done with wooing her. BTDT. Have the scars and burn marks to prove it. At this point she needs to woo me.

She gets the paycheck married or divorced. She wants the time and attention, she needs to show that she can reliably meet my need for SF. Otherwise, she can take her ENs and do whatever she wants with them. But don't bring them to me.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 06:55 PM
I have been reading the recent posts on themud's thread. Several women have said "you need to make it safe for her, she can sense your resentment, and it prevents her from feeling safe".

In my case, that is the whole point. I am NOT safe for Mrs. Hold. I want and need sex. When there is no SF, I resent her. I am not going to stop feeling that way unless and until my need for SF has been met consistently and abundantly for a significant period of time. If our SF depends on her feeling safe with me, there will never be SF between us. I guess I do not love her enough to make it safe for her.

Maybe if we had worked this out earlier in our marriage I could have given her the time and space to feel safe without pressure from me for sex. But we are long past that. I want sex and I want it now and I don't care whether that puts pressure on her or makes her feel unsafe. She can feel safe later.

Which is why I feel we are incompatible. She is a rape victim. I know her need for safety is even stronger than for other women. And the requirement for me to be safe even more important. And I can no longer be that for her.
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 07:08 PM
Hold,

my heart does hurt for you and themud, however I think you guys can make it, cause you keep trying.

couple questions for you if you don't mind.

If you wife agrees to having sex with you, do you want to have sex when she is feeling resentful towards you??

When she is angry with you??

When she is hurt by something you have said??

When she feels she has to because its one of your EN??

Because it's the only way to save your marriage according to you at this point in time??
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 07:32 PM
Hold,

Yes, I hear you. You see for years I thought we were "working" on it and found out I was the only one working on it. Do you have any F%$^&ing idea what that did to my psyche? That is when I turned into No More Mr. Nice Guy and she could sense it.

bjs,

I completely understand what you are saying, but it was like the chicken and the egg and we (or I) was working on it since she started refusing from the beginning. The chronic refusals and what she said and did crushed me so much that I did not feel safe and secure initiating and eventually I did not feel safe and secure bringing the subject up, so I do understand.

Hold and I are in similar places in that it is now their opportunity to "work" on it. If she wants more safety and security, she's going to have to make it safe and secure for me, that's all, and if she doesn't than I'm ok with it.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 07:42 PM
I don't blame you. To do otherwise is to be in long-term Plan A-type behavior. Unconditional love, personal sacrifice. Both not recommended, around here.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 07:50 PM
Yeah, a bastardized Plan A as you slowly loose your mind thinking that one more request she made in order for her to have SF will do it, and it doesn't, but "The next thing will". Uh, hehe, uh hee, uh hehe
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 08:00 PM
themud

I do understand,

I made it unsafe for my h by refusing sex early in our marriage. He made it unsafe for me by having an EA. He hasn't done much to make me feel safe that another EA will never happen. In fact we just talked the other day about what are boundary crossings for EA's and he could only come up with being secretive. OUCH.

I do understand to some degree what it feels like to be constantly rejected or your need not met. One of mine is conversation not my top but in there. My h know this, knows he isn't meeting it, knows that it can put me in a vulnerable position to have it filled by others, knows that others are filling, yet has no plans to change it.

soooo........what does one do. I don't want it filled by anyone else I want it filled by him. I haven't felt safe in years with him however I keep taking those steps to improve me and to make those steps towards him. I'm not even sure if this is going to work. I'm not sure I will ever fill safe with him.

However I get to a place where I feel strong enough and I take those steps towards him. Sometimes he surprises me sometimes not. However each time I see him make those baby steps to. It gives me hope, encouragement only later to be crushed once again. So I do understand. However I would much rather keep doing positive steps for me and my marriage so that in the end whether it makes it or not I can live with myself and the knowledge that I did everything possible even if my spouse did not.

I understand rejection for a man in the sexual department is one of the cruelest things a wife can do to a man. Your wife's rejection of you should belong in her lap. I wish you and Hold could see that it is not a reflection of the kind of men you guys are. That you could release that hurt and pain to regain your ability to see that you are not defined by your wive's rejection on you. I'm not sure if this makes any sense and its not coming out on here the way I want to say it.
Posted By: bjs Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 08:02 PM
Originally Posted By: themud
Yeah, a bastardized Plan A as you slowly loose your mind thinking that one more request she made in order for her to have SF will do it, and it doesn't, but "The next thing will". Uh, hehe, uh hee, uh hehe


I used to believe if I lost enough weight, colored my hair the right color, cut my hair the right way, kept the house as clean as possible, encouraged him enough, admired him enough, wore the right clothes, that he would........... yes it is crazy making sometimes. I do understand.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 08:09 PM
Yes it is painful. I can only think of my sil who cannot have a child herself and feel like life itself has rejected her. I feel bad for her, but at times think, "why doesn't she adopt?". She doesn't want to adopt and although it's close the fact is she cannot have a child.

For so long I had this feeling wanting SF and knowing I will not get it, although it's so close and that pain was to my core. I have cried alone from the pain. I will never get those year back when I could at the drop of a hat and wanted to at the drop of a hat. Those are gone and stolen by someone who was to protect and to serve, to have and to hold. It's painful to think she didn't care and admits it and admits being selfish. If I would've known I probably would have left then, instead she lied about trying and working at it when all along she wasn't. Safe and Secure? How do I know she is trying her hardest? How do I know this will last? By signing that contract she has given me the ability to see with my own eyes that there's hope and when I'm feeling that pain, I can pull it out of my wallet and read it, unless of course it's another ploy.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 08:33 PM
Originally Posted By: bjs
If you wife agrees to having sex with you, do you want to have sex when she is feeling resentful towards you?? When she is angry with you?? When she is hurt by something you have said?? When she feels she has to because its one of your EN?? Because it's the only way to save your marriage according to you at this point in time??


I am very torn about those questions.

Part of me says yes. I want sex no matter how she feels. She wanted date nights and vacations and presents even when they were painful for me. She wanted compliments and admiration even when she spent all our savings, ran up huge debts and gained 70 pounds. She didn't stop wanting what she wanted just because I didn't feel like providing it. Now it is her turn to provide no matter how she feels.

Part of me says no. But probably not for the reason you might imagine. Not to spare her feelings. But because I am disgusted that I so often accepted lousy sex. So if she merely offered to lie there and let me do my thing while her mind flies of to "Planet Mrs. Hold". In other words, lousy sex. Because her anger or fear or pain prevents her from offering more than that. Then there is no need for us to bother. But if she could make the sex good for me (I used to want the sex to be good for her, but at this point I figure that is her responsibility), I would accept it and thank her for it.

And hopefully feel good about it. I used to feel bad about having sex when the woman wasn't "into it". Now I feel like a chump for being so "noble". Now I just want to be selfish. And figure if she wants the sex to be good for her then she can ask for what she needs. I am more than willing to use fingers or tongue or toys to make it good for her if she shares with me what she enjoys. Or if she is willing to explore together if she doesn't already know. But I am no longer going to take on the responsibility for making it good for her if she will not share her experience with me.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 08:52 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
I have been reading the recent posts on themud's thread. Several women have said "you need to make it safe for her, she can sense your resentment, and it prevents her from feeling safe".

In my case, that is the whole point. I am NOT safe for Mrs. Hold. I want and need sex. When there is no SF, I resent her. I am not going to stop feeling that way unless and until my need for SF has been met consistently and abundantly for a significant period of time. If our SF depends on her feeling safe with me, there will never be SF between us. I guess I do not love her enough to make it safe for her.

Maybe if we had worked this out earlier in our marriage I could have given her the time and space to feel safe without pressure from me for sex. But we are long past that. I want sex and I want it now and I don't care whether that puts pressure on her or makes her feel unsafe. She can feel safe later.

Which is why I feel we are incompatible. She is a rape victim. I know her need for safety is even stronger than for other women. And the requirement for me to be safe even more important. And I can no longer be that for her.


You overlook one of the strong premise of MB, if there is a disease, addiction or abuse, MB will not likely work.

If and when you fix yourself, and if and when she fixes herself, only then MB will have a better change of working.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 09:00 PM
Hold, what do we tell our kids when they are little and they do something to "get back" at someone who hurt them?

"Two wrongs don't make a right"

(yeah, yeah, I know, but three rights make a left...)

Kudos, BTW for putting responsibility for her own enjoyment of sex squarely where it belongs.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 09:09 PM
Originally Posted By: bjs
Hold,

my heart does hurt for you and themud, however I think you guys can make it, cause you keep trying.

couple questions for you if you don't mind.

If you wife agrees to having sex with you, do you want to have sex when she is feeling resentful towards you??


I'm not hold or mud, but I will answer based on my experience.
When I was at a point of feeling complete UNMET SF, any sex was sex and I took it.

It was up to me to determine and differentiate what is "bad sex," "duty devotional," "quickie sex," and "love making."

I could not quite make the distinction on on some of those without regular sex.

Originally Posted By: bjs
When she is angry with you??

It depends on how she expresses her anger. If she agrees to say quickie sex, then she starts complaining during, making irritated gestures during, or any overt actions I perceive a turn off means it's "bad sex" and I would stop and refuse to participate further.

Originally Posted By: bjs
When she is hurt by something you have said??

It is her responsibility to communicate her feelings. I do not control her feelings.

Originally Posted By: bjs
When she feels she has to because its one of your EN??

That is her choice to meet my needs, so long as I express my needs to her. There is nothing wrong with duty or devotion sex, so long as both perceive it as such.

Originally Posted By: bjs
Because it's the only way to save your marriage according to you at this point in time??

I *was* in that perception, where the lack of SF felt like it was the only thing holding the marriage together, and felt like when SF is never to happen, the M is done.

But when I did proceed to think and discuss D, there were "other important factors" or values for me to consider--such as kids, and financial impact.

Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/13/10 09:22 PM
Still,

Yes there are other responsibilities that override lack of SF, like kids etc.

I use to want sex no matter how I was treated, but no not anymore. If she is mean I don't want it and that is part of the jab, that part of that high libido is gone and will most likely never come back. Those years wasted while she didn't try to work on M. I am trying to get past the fact that she didn't try and I have lost years of SF b/c of her unwillingness and selfishness.
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 01:53 PM
Being in Plan A with my H myself I have been reading this thread with interest. I have 2 thoughts to contribute.

First, I'm hearing a lot of quite bitter resentment over not getting SF. I'm wondering if the MB program fosters a sense of 'entitlement' to SF. But then again that is not what I understand by the MB approach to SF - Husbands are NOT entitled to SF. It's more that SF will naturally 'happen' if the wife's emotional needs are being met and there are no lovebusters.

Second. I thought Plan A was meant to mean a complete erradication of love busters. I would have thought that a HUGE lovebuster would be conveying (even with body language and behavior not just words) an attitude of resentment and anger when SF didn't happen. Kind of like a 'body language' AO. So I'm thinking if I was male and trying plan A I would spend 1-3 months of falling over myself to not convey any sense of anger and instead be the epitome of reassurance when there is no SF. i.e. ZERO expectations of SF. (what DR. Harley calls being an angel) - No resentment.
It's essential IMHO that the wife has a good long period of time feeling and truly believing that there is absolutely no pressure and no expectation of SF. After THAT then if there is still no SF even though this and all other LB's have been erradicated and EN's are being met. Then and only then can you say hand on heart - maybe this will never work.

Just my 2 cents. Sorry if any of this is off the mark I'm still trying to understand ramifications of plan A myself.



Posted By: Telly Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 02:17 PM
No one is entitled to have their EN's met... whether SF or anything else.

But if you want your spouse to feel love for you (which is the entire premise of MB) then you will chose to meet your spouses EN in a way you can both feel enthusiastic about.

The problem is that if a spouse is sexually averse, then there is no arrangement they can feel enthusiastic about, and the need for SF is not met in any way.

That stinks. It's not entitlement, but it's certainly not building love, and the like of it undoubtedly withdraws love.

I would also add that SF is slightly different in that there is no way to get that need met (morally) from anyone else once you are married.

It's stupid to ignore this EN, and spouses who do that to the higher libido spouse are relying on the good will and moral character of their spouse not to have an affair... They are not protecting their marriage, they are not ensuring their spouse feels in love with them.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 02:54 PM
Originally Posted By: veejay
First, I'm hearing a lot of quite bitter resentment over not getting SF.


Yes, I am very bitter and resentful about the lack of sex in our marriage.

Quote:
I would have thought that a HUGE lovebuster would be conveying (even with body language and behavior not just words) an attitude of resentment and anger when SF didn't happen. Kind of like a 'body language' AO. So I'm thinking if I was male and trying plan A I would spend 1-3 months of falling over myself to not convey any sense of anger and instead be the epitome of reassurance when there is no SF. i.e. ZERO expectations of SF. (what DR. Harley calls being an angel) - No resentment.


BTDT. We did marriage counselling for 8 years. During parts of that we went months without sex (like 9 months). We saw a sex therapist who said "no sex until I gave you permission". I was fine with that. Went with the program. No asking for sex. Good positive attitude. My wife refused to do any of the "homework" (well, to be fair I think she did it 1 time in 16 weeks). I spent plenty of time eliminating love busters and "stuffing" down my resentment over the lack of sex.

Quote:
After THAT then if there is still no SF even though this and all other LB's have been erradicated and EN's are being met. Then and only then can you say hand on heart - maybe this will never work.


Which is where I find myself today. Done the program. Got told to shove it. Waiting for the kids to be out of the house so I can finally take the action that is the natural consequence of knowing this will never work.

Quote:
Just my 2 cents. Sorry if any of this is off the mark I'm still trying to understand ramifications of plan A myself.


I think you have a very good understanding of the MB principles and of Plan A. I wish you the best good fortune in resolving whatever marital issues lead you to arrive at this forum.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 03:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Telly
No one is entitled to have their EN's met... whether SF or anything else.


Interesting that you should post this today.

On the way out of the house today, I told Mrs. Hold "have a nice day" (as I do pretty much every day if she is home and awake when I leave). Today she was standing near the door, so she took a step toward me and leaned in for a kiss. I aimed for her cheek but she turned her head and gave me a quick peck on the lips. She seemed quite pleased with herself and said "after all, I am not a friend".

As I have said before, in other circumstaces, I might have felt pleased with her behavior. As it is, I was angry. In my mind, she was basically saying "I am your wife, and I am entitled to a kiss on the lips." My mind was screaming "no, at this point you are not entitled to ANYTHING on account of being my wife!"

She has made it clear that I am not entitled to anything on acocunt of being her husband. Which, as Telly says, is the correct position to take. But it is a 2-way street. Just as I am not entitled to sex just because I am her husband, she is not entitled to kisses on the lips just because she is my wife. She wants to be reassured that she retains the status of wife, and what she sees as the entitlements of that position. But as Telly says, there are no entitlements. Hypocritical. Makes my blood boil.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 03:01 PM
veejay,

Seeing SF as the EN of one spouse is the basis for resentment at having to serve that need unwillingly. Feeling entitled to SF can create resentment over having such an important need ignored.

Changing the normal reaction to being rejected from hurt expressed as anger is important, not just for the outward effect on the relationship, but also in changing one's attitude towards the sexual relation from SF of an EN to something on a higher level.

For most men, SF is not different than for women because they are genetically wired to procreate, to become aroused more quickly, and that means they usually have a higher sex drive than their wives. But men have the same underlying source of sexual feelings for their wives that wives have for their husbands: affection, trust and security. This is love, and the sexual act is about expressing this affection for his wife, and about receiving love from his wife. The hormonal component of libido is so strong that it often overpowers these emotions in men, and their wives see only the physical side of sex.

Most women who refuse to engage in sexual relations and play also are unaffectionate and even practice love busters such as insults, demeaning comments, and independent behavior. All this sends a message to her husband that she does not love him, and she cannot be trusted.

The danger in getting enough self-control over denial of SF to not express anger or resentment is that this is a behavior of distancing. It cannot help restore romantic love, unless the wife realizes what is going on, ceases her LBs, and expresses affection through conversation, UA time and recreation with her husband in order to send signals to him that she wants to connect and restore the relationship. Otherwise, he will just be harboring and building resentment, or shutting down the rest of his feelings for her.
Posted By: SmilingWoman Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 03:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Retread
veejay,

Seeing SF as the EN of one spouse is the basis for resentment at having to serve that need unwillingly. Feeling entitled to SF can create resentment over having such an important need ignored.

Changing the normal reaction to being rejected from hurt expressed as anger is important, not just for the outward effect on the relationship, but also in changing one's attitude towards the sexual relation from SF of an EN to something on a higher level.

For most men, SF is not different than for women because they are genetically wired to procreate, to become aroused more quickly, and that means they usually have a higher sex drive than their wives. But men have the same underlying source of sexual feelings for their wives that wives have for their husbands: affection, trust and security. This is love, and the sexual act is about expressing this affection for his wife, and about receiving love from his wife. The hormonal component of libido is so strong that it often overpowers these emotions in men, and their wives see only the physical side of sex.

Most women who refuse to engage in sexual relations and play also are unaffectionate and even practice love busters such as insults, demeaning comments, and independent behavior. All this sends a message to her husband that she does not love him, and she cannot be trusted.

The danger in getting enough self-control over denial of SF to not express anger or resentment is that this is a behavior of distancing. It cannot help restore romantic love, unless the wife realizes what is going on, ceases her LBs, and expresses affection through conversation, UA time and recreation with her husband in order to send signals to him that she wants to connect and restore the relationship. Otherwise, he will just be harboring and building resentment, or shutting down the rest of his feelings for her.


Wow. Excellent post!
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 03:12 PM
Originally Posted By: Telly
The problem is that if a spouse is sexually averse, then there is no arrangement they can feel enthusiastic about, and the need for SF is not met in any way.

But how would one differentiate between a general 'sexual aversion' that has nothing to do with the H's behavior and a 'sexual aversion' that is a reaction to the H's behavior? It seems that the best shot at getting at the truth is to be a selfless 'Angel' for 3 months and THEN there's at least a fighting chance of seeing what the true problem is. Then and only then has any partner earned the right to declare a possible general 'sexual aversion' (that is completely independent of ANY partner's behavior) as the cause of the SF problems - that's the way I see it anyway.

But then if 'resentment' is an LB for the 'resented' partner it strikes me as enormously difficult to erradicate. I personally don't think it's something that can be 'faked'. The 'resented' partner will still feel it IMO - and therefore still be lovebusted by it. The way I see it, the only way to achive true erradication of the 'resentment' lovebuster is for the Plan A partner to actually and truly not feel resentful. Now that's got to be a hard thing to achieve and I wonder if anyone ever has. It's a classic catch 22.
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 03:37 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Done the program. Got told to shove it.


Oh so you followed Plan A and your wife confirmed that you were meeting all her EN's and had stopped all LB's? And she still doesn't want any SF? So I assume she's realized in her own mind that her sexual aversion is nothing to do with you and she's confirmed this to you?

I'm so sorry, you must feel awful - I know I would. But at least you now know that her aversion has absolutely nothing to do with you or your behavior.

So now you must be in Plan A 1/2 - like a 'holding period' until you can put plan B into effect? Which raises the question of how is one supposed to behave towards their partner in the period 'between' Plan A and Plan B?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 03:45 PM
Most women who refuse to engage in sexual relations and play also are unaffectionate and even practice love busters such as insults, demeaning comments, and independent behavior. All this sends a message to her husband that she does not love him, and she cannot be trusted.

Just a comment. Years ago when I was a teenager, I worked with a girl who told me that she purposefully dressed down and did things so as not to attract the opposite sex.

Your comment above got me thinking that perhaps the lack of affection and LBs could be that person's tools to help her not appear desirable to her mate. That way the struggle with SF - that whole issue is less of an issue for her than it would be otherwise, at least in her mind.
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Retread
The danger in getting enough self-control over denial of SF to not express anger or resentment is that this is a behavior of distancing. It cannot help restore romantic love, unless the wife realizes what is going on, ceases her LBs, and expresses affection through conversation, UA time and recreation with her husband in order to send signals to him that she wants to connect and restore the relationship. Otherwise, he will just be harboring and building resentment, or shutting down the rest of his feelings for her.


I just think there is no place for resentment in Plan A. And I can't see plan A working if it is present. I thought that if there is anger and resentment over lack of SF then this should be expressed as a thoughtful request. Continuing to walk around emanating bitterness and resentment to my mind is a 'selfish demand'.

What helps me drop the "resentful" mindset is something that I read which goes "Harboring resentment is like ME taking poison every day hoping the other person will die" - LOL - KWIM?

Saying that dropping resentment is an act of 'distancing' ....no. I don't agree with that. If you've expressed your disappointment/anger and asked for the need to be met - that should be it. done. The resentment shouldn't continue. Maybe I'm getting confused but - no, for me, there's something wrong with your logic here Retread. Just can't put my finger on it!
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:07 PM
And I do remember Hold saying that he's been round and round with his wife on this issue and doesn't feel the need or the wisdom in reminding her repeatedly why he is in withdrawal due to the fear of divorce and losing custody, but I am always finding myself wondering if it would work...

Maybe I'm too idealistic. Could be. But I think, Hold, that your wife deserves to know how this whole SF issue has affected your view of life and your feelings about yourself, especially. I think she should be told. Perhaps she doesn't truly realize how much her actions have affected your self esteem.

I believe you're relying too much on her ability (or inability) to read into your state of mind. People get used to how others act and stop feeling responsible at a certain point. They learn to forgive themselves so that they can adapt to their surroundings and function adequately in life, so the unhappiness then stops being an accusation to them and evolves into the responsibility of the other.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:18 PM
Soolee:

I know I am DJing her by predicting how she will react. In large part, I am predicting that if I placed my unhappiness squarely in front of her on a continual basis she would divorce me rather than work on the issues between us. I understand that it is possible she would react differently today than she did during 8 years of marriage counselling. But I am not willing to risk my time with my kids on that chance.

She knows how it has affected my self esteem. When we were talking with friends on New Year's Day she said "that is how the rejection affects you and your self esteem, it does not affect all men that way". She knows. She holds it against me. Thinks less of me for it. She does not react with compassion. She reacts with disdain.

I understand why. Understanding why does not make it hurt any less.
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:19 PM
Hold, she will NEVER divorce you. She'd have to get a job.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:26 PM
She knows how it has affected my self esteem. When we were talking with friends on New Year's Day she said "that is how the rejection affects you and your self esteem, it does not affect all men that way". She knows. She holds it against me. Thinks less of me for it. She does not react with compassion. She reacts with disdain.

What, exactly, was she referring to? The Noassatol Diet? Did she account for being on said diet for years on end?
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:27 PM
Hold, does your wife blame you for her aversion to SF or does she accept it as her own issue. Or does she even admit she has an aversion to sf?

Sorry, you are going throught this. My heart goes out to you.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:28 PM
Are you saying that your personal sex life was a topic of conversation amongst friends?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:32 PM
Originally Posted By: veejay
I just think there is no place for resentment in Plan A. And I can't see plan A working if it is present. I thought that if there is anger and resentment over lack of SF then this should be expressed as a thoughtful request. Continuing to walk around emanating bitterness and resentment to my mind is a 'selfish demand'.


Agreed. That is why I have no hjope for my marriage. My patience and ability to resist resentment has reached its limit.

Quote:
If you've expressed your disappointment/anger and asked for the need to be met - that should be it. done. The resentment shouldn't continue.


Maybe that would be the case for other needs. But the requirement of monogamy makes this difficult as regards sex. On other issues, we can agree to disagree. She votes Democrat, I vote Republican. We can go to the sushi place and I can order chicken tempura and not eat raw fish. Or she can go to the sushi restaurant with a friend while I go to Buffalo Wild Wings. But for sex, if we disagree, then my need for sex goes unmet.

For me, for the resentment to end, I would need to end the marriage and be free to seek sex elsewhere. However, that requires me to pay a price as regards time with my children that I am not willing to pay.

I know it is my choice to stay. I know I would be healthier and more mature if I could accept my choice more graciously and not resent her for the lack of sex. But I am not that healthy or mature. I am paying a price for choosing to stay with my kids. A price she does not have to pay because she could choose divorce and keep predominate custody of the kids. I am determined that she pay a price for forcing me to make this choice. No matter what it costs me.

I am taking all the poison I can get my hands on. Unfortunately, I haven't died yet.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:41 PM
veejay,

It is a noble goal to suddenly not feel any resentment for not having your ENs met, or for LBs coming your way. How do you do that without distancing yourself from the source of your pain?

The way I see is for the spouse who is committing the LBs and not serving the ENs to at least recognize they are not doing what they should, try to understand why they are failing, make some efforts to improve, and communicate all this to their spouse. Otherwise, it appears that they don't care.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
What, exactly, was she referring to?


One woman who is tall and very thin mentioned that she felt heavy and thought she had a few pounds to lose. I was surprised and asked her if these thoughts had been present throughout her life. She said they had. I was again surprised, since she is, as I said, tall and thin with a flat stomach and a small butt and I could not imagine that she was worried about her weight. In fact, on occassion I have heard her make self-deprecating comments about the small size of her chest, and I would have thought her concerns, if any, would have been in the opposite direction.

I then mentioned an article I read in which an avowedly feminist woman wrote something like "how can women be expected to compete with men at the workplace when women are constantly distracted by worrying about their weight". I suggested this was one of the most anti-feminist statements I had ever read. Not just because of what it says about women's fragility. But also because, no matter how debilitating it is for women to constantly be worried about the size of their butts, men are just as distracted and deterred by thinking about each of the women they pass in the hallway, what she would be like in bed, whether she would consent to having sex with him, and the humbling realization for most men that in the overwhelming majority of cases, the answer would be no.

The women were shocked to think that men are this easily distracted. One of the other husbands confirmed that he was distracted, but not as easily deterred as me. This merely confirmed his wife's opinion that he is a sexist oaf, with an overly inflated sense of his attractiveness to women. The other women asked me if I really found it so hurtful and depressing to think that most women would not want me. I said I did. And Mrs. Hold said what I quoted previously.

Originally Posted By: Soolee
Are you saying that your personal sex life was a topic of conversation amongst friends?


No. Are you nuts?!?! Talk about our sex life with friends? We don't even talk about our sex life with each other any more. I got tired of complaining. She got tired of hearing me complain. So now I just take whatever hugs and eag squeezes she offers and keep my disappointment to myself.

Last night she asked why I have seemed so cheerful lately. Do any of you think that my posts over the past few weeks indicate I am FEELING cheerful? I am apparently a VERY good actor. That, and I leveled up and unlocked a new gun and a new perk on Modern Warfare 2 last night.
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:52 PM

Hold, I think I'll have to go back and read your description of how you implemented plan A. (maybe I can learn from your experience. From the small amount I've read it looks like your wife is not following the MB program at all?

The way I understood it Plan A is dependent on Plan B - i.e. you leaving. But that's easier said than done. If you choose to live in the same house then I suppose the best you can do is completely and totally mentally 'disengage' from her. A sort of plan b?) i.e. leave her in all aspects except physically removing yourself from the house. This can be achieved - I did it myself the whole of last year (which if I'm wrong and plan A works for me and my H and therefore he is NOT iredeemably abusive - I am going to feel really bad about). But anywho, in my experience complete detachment and disengagement, (whilst still being couteous and respectful)IS possible if you are still living with someone. It's not ideal but sometimes the choices in life are between crap and crappier.

I'm sorry hold. You sound very upset and down.
Posted By: CWMI Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:53 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Soolee:

I know I am DJing her by predicting how she will react. In large part, I am predicting that if I placed my unhappiness squarely in front of her on a continual basis she would divorce me rather than work on the issues between us.


I have the same fear, hold. But I do it anyway. SF isn't our problem (interesting, to me, sidenote: I put on the ENQ that I want sex 3x a week and am happy with the fulfillment of this need, H put that he wants SF 1x a week, and chose the option that when it happens, it is how he likes it, but it is not given as often as he likes...ummm...whiteboard, check-mark time! Or let Steve handle it...), but how can anything be resolved if the problems aren't brought forth???

I don't advocate for taking pity S, but if an advance by you is accepted, MILK IT. Enjoy. Remove the thoughts of the pityF from your head, and LOVE. Love her, with your whole being. This may sound odd to some folk, but I want to tell you this. When H and I got together, I felt a full spiritual connection to him. And I felt it when his spirit pulled away. And I persisted. I'd never felt that before, and I wanted to feel it again. Throw in kids, demands, etc...it's understandable, right? And then, one night well into our marriage, kids, demands, I wasn't really 'feeling it' as far as horndog goes, and we had S.

Not SF, just S, for me, at the start (I get in the mood pretty quickly).

And HE felt it. He finally felt what I'd felt. He said, "I felt you INSIDE me. You inhabited me."

(fwiw, I wasn't physically INSIDE him in any way, lol)

THAT's the sf I wish everyone had every time. But omg, once in a lifetime...I deem that quite special.

Hold, make advances, and TAKE the ones that are accepted. MAKE love. Give of your spirit, not your body.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:59 PM
Originally Posted By: veejay
Hold, I think I'll have to go back and read your description of how you implemented plan A. (maybe I can learn from your experience. From the small amount I've read it looks like your wife is not following the MB program at all?


Do not in any way shape or form use me as an example of how to rebuild your marriage. I am probably the poster child for long term failure. I choose to wallow in bitterness and resentment rather than create a happy life for myself, with or without Mrs. Hold.

And don't worry about me sounding down. I am known around here as eeyore. I always sound down here. Funny thing is, last night my wife asked me why I have been so cheerful lately.

Quote:
Does she accept that it is her and not you?


No. Because that isn't true. it is partly her. She was raped. More than once. Left scars. She wasn't aware of them until after we got married. She still claims they aren't there. I know it is a huge DJ, but I feel they are there but she refuses to acknowledge them because she is unprepared to deal with the fallout fo admitting they exist.

But that is not the whole truth. There is also the part that I am not physically attractive, not well endowed, not good in bed, so sex with me has probably never been very good for her. She told one of our sex counsellors that sex with me was wonderful, but I find that impossible to believe. To me it indicates how far into self-denial she is.

And then there is the financial issue. My family has much less money than she thougth we had. And I earn much less than she expected I would earn. She is bitterly disappointed by our lack of social and economic statute, and while she would say this has nothing to do with the lack of sex, I know it does.

I know I am speaking for her and that is frowned on at MB. MB would tell me to accept her explanations. But her statements do not line up with the facts. They do not line up with the lack of sex on our honeymoon or during our first year of marriage before the kids arrived. They do not line up with the tremendously irresponsible behavior on her part thaty started PRECISELY when I first seriously complained about the lack of sex after our 5th anniversary.

If the problem was truly my poor behavior from expressing my resentment, then there would have been more sex when I behaved in the ways she requested. Took her on fancy vacations. Behaved cheerfully. Even romantically. But none of that worked. Because the mechanism is not what she claims it to be.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 04:59 PM
hold, you WERE talking about your sex life with your friends, if you told those women you were fantasizing about every woman you passed in the hallway, and feeling dejected because they have no interest in you.
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Retread
veejay,

It is a noble goal to suddenly not feel any resentment for not having your ENs met, or for LBs coming your way. How do you do that without distancing yourself from the source of your pain?

The way I see is for the spouse who is committing the LBs and not serving the ENs to at least recognize they are not doing what they should, try to understand why they are failing, make some efforts to improve, and communicate all this to their spouse. Otherwise, it appears that they don't care.


Well I thought that's what Plan A was all about? completely suspending the need for your own EN's to be met and to concentrate on eliminating your own LB's. i.e. temporary unconditional love? Or are we talking at cross purposes?

To me your question seems to be "How is Plan A even possible?". Unless I am totally understanding Plan A wrong?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:08 PM
I'll bet it crossed your mind how satisfying it could have been to clue your friends in on a few things, huh?

I'll bet you would have liked to say: "I think repetition will do that to any man in time."
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Retread
veejay,

It is a noble goal to suddenly not feel any resentment for not having your ENs met, or for LBs coming your way. How do you do that without distancing yourself from the source of your pain?

The way I see is for the spouse who is committing the LBs and not serving the ENs to at least recognize they are not doing what they should, try to understand why they are failing, make some efforts to improve, and communicate all this to their spouse. Otherwise, it appears that they don't care.


Well, that thinking falls in the "entitlement" and I used to think that.

I began living this belief instead: "I am the only person in the world responsible for meeting my needs." When I started going in that reality, I became less "needy" of that ENs I felt entitled to, or expected from my M.

I had to become a whole person, capable of meeting my own needs.

This allows me to be not dependent on my spouse for my needs.

This does not contradict the EN philosophy of MB. Sure I have ENs, and when my W don't meet them, the Marriage and the Relationship suffers; but not my Self because I am capable of meeting my own needs.

So then, it becomes easy to discuss or express what I want from the M or R. But express them without the Love Busters (resentment, angry outburst, demands, judgementals, passive-aggressive behaviors) when the ENs are still not met.

You all know that there is a Plan A, and it leads to Plan B if ENs are not met.

It is when Plan A does not generate the results or positive progress, one needs to decide to proceed to Plan B.

I was at that point by the end of 2006. In my decisions to Plan B or Plan D, I had to work and change myself within to be able to proceed to such decisions.

In the process of changing me, the dynamics of my M also changes--and thus (so called rock the boat) and woke up my wife to the reality of the possibilities.

So she too decided to change. But for how much, depended on how she perceive my own changes are real, or if they are only temporary. So she continues and "tests" me; trigger buttons, provoking my old buttons and see if I revert to my own Love Busters.

Whatever habits / excuses / coping behaviors she used to interact with me, or to ignore my ENs does not work. I managed to improve on detaching myself from the fears of my ENs not being me which removed my dependence from her.

And so I began to "lead" my life the way I want, and I continue to invite her to be with me. But it is still her choice to follow my lead; or to discuss compromises.

However, the same way is true for her. She has her boundaries also, and I encourage her to speak up when there are unknown boundaries I cross. I do try to be more aware of these, and do put effort in accepting them, or disagree. She has flaws that I can learn to accept because it is part of her. Just as I have flaws that I need to learn to accept from myself; and her to accept that it is part of who I am.

My goal to get back to the "in love" feeling is no longer possible. What is possible is to create or change the Marriage to a state of mutual respect and acceptance. I think it is alright to be in the M because I choose to be married to her, and she also chooses to be married to me.

I fear less my emotional strength if she decides that she no longer wants to be married to me. Likewise, I feel emotionally comfortable to choose to not be married to her--but I am not emotionally ready for the risk of damage of such decision affecting my kids.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:15 PM
Originally Posted By: Retread
hold, you WERE talking about your sex life with your friends, if you told those women you were fantasizing about every woman you passed in the hallway, and feeling dejected because they have no interest in you.


Then I guess I have no problem discussing that aspect of my sex life with friends. I don't discuss what Mrs. Hold and I do or don't do together. To me, that is a joint issue and not my place to disclose without her permission.

On the other hand, Mrs. Hold has made it clear that each of us is in total control of our own minds and our own bodies. Their is no sharing or becoming one between us. In that case, I feel I am free to discuss those aspects of my sex life inside my own head with whomever I choose.

I don't think she was upset that I shared my feelings. I think she wished I felt differently.

However, she did laugh when the guys came back from picking up some takeout food. As a goof, one of the guys counted how often he was distracted by a female on the walk to and from the takeout place 2 blocks away. We joked that he lost count when he ran out of fingers and toes. More confirmation that men are pigs.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:22 PM
No, Still_JM, I do not think SF is an entitlement.
I do not even have an EN for SF. I have an EN to express my affection and love for my wife, which sometimes includes SF both of us. If she isn't interested, I am not interested.

The way I got past resentment and keeping score was by working on myself, for the institution of my marriage, instead of for my wife, or for my own wants and needs. It is like being a team player, or "getting with the program" in the military in that it is a DUTY. I have a duty to do certain things well and cheerfully, like provide financial security and domestic support. Both husband and wife have a duty to meet the SF EN of each other.

I can identify with your experience of changing and having your wife be skeptical, even testing you. That is why I come to this forum, because I am working a plan that my wife thinks is artificial, so she refuses to read HNHN or fill out the ENQ and LBQ. Your wife, like mine, changes only as a reaction, not proactively.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:41 PM
Hold, you say that you don't want to divorce because of what it will do to you to be separated from your kids.

I'm not encouraging divorce by any means.

But have you asked yourself what it might mean to them someday to be products of this environment between you and Mrs. Hold?

Do you worry you are teaching your son how to duplicate what you have achieved (or failed to achieve) in life?

Do you worry that your daughter might be learning poor communication habits and transfer that over to her choice of a husband?
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:44 PM
Eh...instinct, I think, Hold. Nature's way of making sure the human race continues.

If nothing else, it was probably good that she was part of the conversation, so that she could appreciate by those close to her that it's very normal for the average male to think this way and not just her husband.

Do you genuinely think she cared that you thought this way? Or was it that you just wanted her to feel that way - responsible for your mindset, perhaps?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:52 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
Do you genuinely think she cared that you thought this way?


Yes. The tone in her voice when she taked about how I react and how other men react made her view of my reaction quite clear.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 05:58 PM
Originally Posted By: OurHouse
Hold, you say that you don't want to divorce because of what it will do to you to be separated from your kids.


Correct. Notice that I say "to be with my kids". Not for them. For me. It may be good for them. Or not. No way to know. All the studies say it can cut either way and no way to predict which way any kid will fall.

Quote:
Do you worry you are teaching your son how to duplicate what you have achieved (or failed to achieve) in life?


Yes, we discuss this all the time. If I thought I would set a better example apart, I would leave. I think I would set an even worse example apart. I will not find another relationship, be happy, and flourish. I will sit in a dinky apartment throwing a permanent pity party. Being with my kids helps me be a better me than I would be divorced. Which is a pretty darn sad statement.

Quote:
Do you worry that your daughter might be learning poor communication habits and transfer that over to her choice of a husband?


No idea. My D is a very chatty person. She is also into hugs and physical affection. We have discussed not marrying a "not into huggies" person.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 06:00 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
I'll bet it crossed your mind how satisfying it could have been to clue your friends in on a few things, huh?

I'll bet you would have liked to say: "I think repetition will do that to any man in time."


Sorry, you lost me on both statements.

Hmm, OK, I think the second means you think I wanted to tell my wife that repeated rejection will tear down any man? I don't believe this. Many. maybe most. Not all. But I guess you and I can agree that repeated rejection has a high risk of tearing down a man, so if you don't want your man torn down, don't reject him.

Still clueless on the first one.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 06:13 PM
What I meant, Hold, is that maybe after her disdainful remark about your feelings towards rejection, you wished you could have explained further to your friends why you feel as you do and why you said what you did.

Why would repeated rejection not tear a person down over time? I can't think of any personality type that would not eventually suffer from this. Hold, I think your wife is not comfortable with accountability. That's fine. Just keep that in mind for your own benefit. You give whatever she says and does far too much credence and seem to let it define who you are and how you view yourself. You have to remember her remarks are tinged with refusal to accept her part in it. It is far, far easier to deflect than to reflect, and it's what she's most comfortable doing. jmo.
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 06:41 PM
I think what I'm learning here is that

1. Plan A can fail and one reason for this can be where the 'Temporary Angel' spouse continues operating from stuffed resentment. This makes the following advice I was given on my thread make even more sense- "do these things because you love him not because you hope to get xyz in return. If you do it purely for reciprocation then you are just being manipulative to get something you want and not acting out of love' (I've paraphrased this from memory)- thanks to the person who said this.

2. At some point (irrespective of whether there's been a plan A phase or not) Both partners have to make a sincere and honest effort with the MB program. Otherwise it doesn't work.

Anyway, hold as this is your thread I just have a couple more final comments for you.

A: Would you consider doing just one more Plan A stint to give it another try?

B: If no. Then I'll check in on your thread now and again - I've got some good tips on disengaging and mentally separating if that's the way you want to proceed.

Hold, I wish you all the very best - mainly I hope you get bored with "taking the poison" (LOL) and see the illogicality of it at some point. If not then - all I can say is ....all this self flagellation ...(jeesh) believe me...BTDT.....it's really a kind of dishonorable way of avoiding personal growth by saying "see look how I recognize my faults look how hard I beat myself up. I don't buy it Hold. Not one bit. It's a kind of a way of doing nothing whilst saying "I know I'm doing nothing - but look how guilty and sorry I am that I'm doing nothing! That makes me it all forgiveable right?" Wrong, Hold, it's a kind of cheating. I can say this to you Hold because I used to have exactly the same way of thinking. I learned, that in fact it's a very common defense mechanism (one of the sneakier ones!) and provides a perfect excuse for not changing. And it really isn't an honorable approach (no matter how hard you are on yourself - LOL).I don't know if I'm resonating with you at all. All I do know is that if you don't change your approach then your situation has zero chance of changing. and that's fine s'long as you realize this.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 07:17 PM
I found this on the Shrink for Men web site. Describes me perfectly.

If you believe the cliché, “You can’t love anyone else until you love yourself,” then there should be no pursuit of a love interest until you learn to love yourself. If you’re attracted to others who can’t love you in return, you’ll begin a futile cycle of pursuit and distancing behaviors. Think of it as “mutually assured unhappiness.”

This pattern of behavior typically reinforces your inner and oftentimes unacknowledged feelings of worthlessness and inadequacy. In other words, you seek intimacy and love from others who either can’t tolerate or aren’t capable of intimacy and love, which confirms your faulty beliefs about being undeserving or having to work for love.

Veejay, you are exactly correct. I am dishonorably avoiding personal growth. And I intend to continue doing so. I don't feel better about feeling guilty about it. I just don't feel like changing.

I have been taking the poison for years. I have been on an all poison, all the time diet since May 2005 when we stopped working on our marriage. I can make another 5 years.

Originally Posted By: Veejay
Would you consider doing just one more Plan A stint to give it another try?


Not until the kids leave home. At this point, the playing field for conducting POJA negotiations is tilted in her favor. She can always play the Plan D card and blow me away. When the kids are gone, we can negotiate in a more even-handed manner. Maybe then I will give it one more try before leaving.

And thanks for offering tips on mentally disengaging. So far, I have found what works for me. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2!
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 07:22 PM
Hold,

Not for Plan A, B, S or D...not for saving your marriage...not for any reason but freedom for you...

would you please act from honesty in response to your W?

On the kiss on lips...where you assumed entitlement..."I hear you feel entitled because you're my wife, not a friend." Not even the "did I hear that right?" at the end...just honest.

Same with her statement about not all men...just you. "I hear disdain in your voice and in your words for me. That I don't measure up to other men you're comparing me to."

You're hearing...doesn't mean she's saying. Both have many ways to infer...and you pick one...the one that hurts worse...and you'd be surprised, after the self-stab...that even if she responds with "Yes, I meant to show my contempt"...doesn't hurt twice...

because you protect by picking the worst without honest confirmation or clarification. If it really hurt worse for your worst inference confirmed, you'd be doing that every time...to deepen the pain, solidify the resentment...prove yourself truly right.

And you don't.

So do. And you did a short while back...without your eye on her response...do it now, with your curious nature, your intrigued self...

for wishing you didn't have that constant rejection experience isn't the same as seeing you as inferior for it.

LA

(I cannot imagine your W has the acuity to shred you as you do in your own mind...you service your thirst for rejection non-stop, IMO. Like you're following The Rule of Rejection instead of Protection.)
Posted By: veejay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 07:37 PM

Well, Hold you just have an answer for everything don't you? (that's about the 3rd time your posts have made me smile)

I'm starting to suspect you're quite happy in your unhappiness!

As someone who is NOT married to you I find you play the game in quite a charming and disarming way. I do feel sorry for your wife though - I hope she finds someone who is prepared to at least try and love her.

I have absolutely nothing left to say to you - except enjoy COD!
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 08:07 PM
Originally Posted By: veejay
I'm starting to suspect you're quite happy in your unhappiness!


Not happy. Comfortable. Deathly afraid of leaving my comfort zone. And dedicated to justifying my choice to stay here. Same as my wife. We are very well matched in that way.

Quote:
I do feel sorry for your wife though - I hope she finds someone who is prepared to at least try and love her.


I feel sorry for both of us. I see her as a scared and lonely girl huddled in the corner. She has been hurt. She desperately wants to be loved and nursed back to health. Unfortunately, I did not come to see this side of her until far too late in the game. After my love bank had been run so deep into the red that I am unwilling to extend further "credit" in the hope that this can be turned around.

I share the same hope for her as you do. I just hope that she waits until after we are divorced to go looking.

And as in many things, we all need to be careful what we wish for. I tried to love her for many years. Tried to eliminate LBs. Tried to meet her ENs. But the more we spent enjoyable time together, the more I wanted sex. Drove me nuts. Which I had to hide. Which was stressful and exhausting. These days I am more at peace. The reality is unhappy. But more consistent. I can behave more in accordance with how I feel (if we aren't going to have much sex, I don't want to spend much time alone with you). Less stressful. Even if less happy.

Trust me, it was not better back when I was trying to love her.

Hmmm, if you mean, trying to love her in the way she prefers to be loved. Then yes, that would be good. But I can't do that. Nor can she do that for me. So eventually we will be better off apart. But not now.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 08:25 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
Why would repeated rejection not tear a person down over time?


Some would find it a spur to self improvement. They would use the repeated rejection as motivation to become richer, more educated, stronger, fitter, etc. They would TRY to overcome the rejection and achieve success. I gave up the game. Rather quickly and easily. Plenty of men have more cojones than that.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/14/10 11:48 PM
I guess there may be some, but I doubt success erases the pain.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 04:31 PM
This morning Mrs. Hold was very upset. S15 lost his basketball uniform and will be benched today. She has lots of work for D12's swim team. The dryer broke. She felt bad physically and couldn't decide whether to go to the gym. I gave her a hug. I got an erection holding her. She asked what she should do. I told her "take your husband to the bedroom and take advantage of circumstances". So I broke my "rule" not to initiate.

She consented. We tried something different than SOSO. It worked out OK.

Afterward I asked her "so is it more like the sex distracts you from worrying about the broken dryer or does the broken dryer distract you from the sex?" She said "that is a trick question I can't win by answering". I replied "not what I meant. I know your mind was elsewhere, but you consented anyway. Thank you for making such a loving and generous and caring gesture."
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 04:40 PM
Well, at least she consented, even if she was feeling bad physically. wink
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 04:41 PM
Wow, hold, if you're not careful you may end up with an improved marriage when you're not looking.

laugh
Posted By: dredthesilence Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 08:39 PM
So, is the dryer fixed?
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 08:43 PM
dred,

That's where his wife found the basketball uniform. His ds had stuffed it back through the vent hose and the dryer burnt out not being able to cool down.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 08:46 PM
We called Sears since it is on repair contract. They will be over Tuesday to fix it. So this weekend we will be at the laundromat.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 08:48 PM
Fix the basketball uniform? I didn't know sears does that, why not buy a new dryer that way your son will have a new uniform to wear.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 09:01 PM
I've overheated my dryer before...any chance that after it's cooled down and the vent hose is cleaned of debris/lint it will start again without a repair man?

Just wanted to remind everyone that dryer vent fires are one of the leading causes of house fires, from what I understand. Home Depot, etc., have cleaning kits for this sort of thing that you can do yourselves. We just had a family displaced a week ago in our area because of a fire caused this way.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 09:03 PM
Never use that flexible piping in back of your dryer, if possible. Also, definitely make sure you use metal flex if you must use flex. The white stuff is paper and it catches fire so quickly.
Laundromats suk, hold. Feel for you and the Mrs.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 09:30 PM
Dryer vents / piping are a pain. Especially in our house, where there is a long run from the dryer to the outside wall. A couple of years ago I installed a heat activated fan to pull the air through the tubing so the lint would get dry and exit the vent in the back of the house. Cut down on the clumps of wet lint in the tube. I still open it up occasionally and remove the lint. So I don't think lint buildup is the problem.

The problem is all the cheap appliances they build today. Then again, none of us want to pay more up front for better quality, so we don't get what we don't pay for. Hence the service contract. Would I happily pay the $150 the service contract cost toward buying a more expensive dryer that doesn't break? Sure. Now find me a dryer that won't break. At least this way I know Sears will come out within a week and fix it when it does break.

I don't mind laudromats. Slightly inconvenient to get to. But at least they have big machines and lots of dryers so you can get all the laundry done at once. At home you save the car ride and hanging at the 'mat, but you have to run the loads consecutively instead of all at once. So it can take all day to get the laundry done. If you are comfortable leaving your clothes "unguarded" at the 'mat, you can even do the grocery shopping while the stuff is in the washer (especially this time of year when you don't have to worry about finding melted ice cream all over your car's trunk), fold the delicates while the other stuff is drying, and be done with multiple tasks in an hour. No way to get all the laundry clean in an hour at home.

No, the laundromat doesn't bother me much. What bothered me was back when I was single, doing laundry in the laundry room of my apartment building at 10:00 Saturday night because I didn't have anything better to do. The good news was that no one else was doing laundry then so I never had to share machines. And since I was working 80+ hour weeks, that was basically the only time I was both home and awake.
Posted By: Still_JM Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 09:40 PM
6 year old appliance.

I had a dryer belt broke. I youtube a fix, ordered the part and fixed it myself. Part from Sears was $30, shipping was $20 (wtf?). Repair would have been $300.

The washer broke months later. I youtube a fix, but did not feel I was up to it, so I just called for repair and paid $300.
Posted By: dredthesilence Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 09:59 PM
Quote:
Especially in our house, where there is a long run from the dryer to the outside wall.


Long runs are gonna be bad, move your output closer.
Quote:
A couple of years ago I installed a heat activated fan to pull the air through the tubing so the lint would get dry and exit the vent in the back of the house

The fan plugs.
Move your output closer .
Quote:
The problem is all the cheap appliances they build today

It has nothing to do with being cheap,.
It does have to do with understanding what you are using, they put load limits on things for a reason.

The average person should never have to run their washer and dryer everyday, "the average person".
Quote:
the laundromat

They have comercial duty machines, the average person cannot afford those.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 10:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Still_JM
I had a dryer belt broke. I youtube a fix, ordered the part and fixed it myself. Part from Sears was $30, shipping was $20 (wtf?). Repair would have been $300.

The washer broke months later. I youtube a fix, but did not feel I was up to it, so I just called for repair and paid $300.


Yes, there is definitely a balance. As you may remember, I recently installed the new cooktop in the kitchen, which included widening the hole in the circuit box using a dremel tool. In past years I have changed belts, hoses, filters, and spark plugs on my tractor and repaired other home appliances.

However, for some reason, Sears makes the service contracts on kitchen and laundry appliances fairly attractive. I know that we could have paid $100 for one repair call for our dishwasher, or $150 for a service contract that includes both parts and labor. Turned out we needed a new electronic control panel that costs $200, plus the service tech had to come twice, which would have cost $200. So we got $400 of repairs for $150.
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 10:08 PM
I haven't ever had a dryer break... except for the time I was trying to *thoroughly* clean all the lint out from the place where the lint tray? screen? goes. While sticking my hand in there - very tight squeeze! - I broke the plastic "wall".

I fixed it myself, using screws and washers to keep the broken pieces together.

Ended up with holes in all my clothes from where they caught on the screws and pieces of broken plastic.

doh2 rotflmao

When I was single, the most depressing things to do were going grocery shopping, going to the laundrymat, and putting gas in the car. I hated doing those three things alone.

Here's my Public Service Announcement: Apparently, in addition to cleaning the lint trap of lint, one should also *wash* the lint trap occasionally (once/year?). Especially if you use those horrid dryer sheets.

Try it: take your lint screen to the sink and run water "through" it. Does water tend to pool, not run so readily through the holes? Now try using a bit of hand soap to rinse it thoroughly, until the water runs freely through it.

Supposedly this will help your dryer to not overheat/wear out.

ETA: it should also shorten the time it takes for clothes to get dry. If it seems that it's taking longer and longer to dry your clothes, but you've cleaned the lint from all the appropriate places, try washing the lint screen.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 10:12 PM
Dred:

Thanks for the advice.

Hmmm, closer output. 5 feet of concrete porch around the front of the house where the dryer currently sits so can't punch a vent hole nearby, and anyway I don't think Mrs. Hold wants the lint venting near the front door or onto the front porch. Back of the basement is finished so can't move the dryer in that direction (the vent pipe passes overhead, but hidden in a drop cieling). I guess we could move the dryer to the north side of the basement near the oil tank, then run run the 240 volt and water over in that direction, as well as a discharge pipe to the septic system. I think I'd rather have a vent discharge issue every few years. wink
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 10:14 PM
jayne

Thanks. Never heard of that trick. Will try it once the dryer is repaired.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/15/10 10:19 PM
Jayne's advice is sound. One thing: most dryers' fine print in the instruction manual actually suggests monthly washing of the dryer lint screen with a soft brush, not just soap and water.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/18/10 04:02 PM
During the Golden Globe "pre-game" last night, I mentioned that Fergie's husband was handsome. Mrs. Hold replied (drumroll please) "not as handsome as you!"

Then she started clapping her hands and giggling and saying "I remembered to be nice! I remembered to be nice!"

I thanked her. Told her I was pleased. That she had finally passed the first class from the "Hold School of Laying It On Thick" and that I am looking forward to her enrolling in the more advanced classes.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 12:58 PM
Mrs. Hold s in Florida visiting her Dad who is having surgery tomorrow. I am Mr Mom this week. Wish me luck with all the juggling!
Posted By: NewEveryDay Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 01:03 PM
Best wishes hold!
Posted By: catperson Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 01:42 PM
Ah, we all know you'll be fine!

Sending a prayer for her father.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 02:31 PM
A good opportunity to take them to the movies or ice skating or maybe even a short hike and winter picnic with cocoa and sandwiches. Have fun with it, Hold.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 03:07 PM
Originally Posted By: Soolee
A good opportunity to take them to the movies or ice skating or maybe even a short hike and winter picnic with cocoa and sandwiches. Have fun with it, Hold.


Hmm, yes, well, both have to get to the school bus before 7 am so mornings are out. S15 has basketball practice every evening from 5:30 to 7:30 except the days when he has a game. D12 has swimming practice every night except Friday, generally starting between 5 and 6:30 and ending somewhere between 7:30 and 9:30 pm. Both have practice Saturday morning. D12 has a birthday party Saturday afternoon and she and I need to acquire a gift for the birthday girl before then. Sunday D12 must be dropped off at the pool at 5:30 am so they can drive to Albany (we are in CT) for a regional figures clinic. So I guess we could do a midnight hike with flashlights Friday night if any of us are awake!

Generally Mrs. Hold does the dropping off and I do the picking up on my way home from work. The only problem with doing both is that I have to leave work 3 to 5 hours earlier than I normally do. So I am getting here 2 hours early every day to try and make up for time "lost" at the other end. Hopefully I will learn to be more efficient! Oh my, maybe less time here at MB! wink
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 03:19 PM
Or...skip simultaneous practices in favor for some family time...

Kind of makes you realize what your wife was talking about with the running around with the kids, huh? Imagine having to leave work 3-5 hours earlier on a regular basis...
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 03:22 PM
I have never doubted that Mrs. Hold makes a very important contribution to our family between 3:00 and 6:00 pm every weekday afternoon.

It is like the commercial for the Boys & Girls Clubs narrated by Denzel Washington. When do most kids get in trouble? Age 13? Age 17? No, between 3 and 6 in the afternoon if they aren't supervised.

I have the utmost respect for single parents. I don't see how they do it on a continual basis.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/20/10 03:41 PM
Me either, Hold. I know 2 women who raised their daughters on their own from the beginning, and I've always wondered how they did it. I think you just do what you have to do.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/25/10 03:20 PM
Got through the week. Made dinner from scratch twice. Did all the laundry so Mrs. Hold came back to all clean clothes (except the ones in her suitcase). Updated schedule "on the fly" as several activities arose at the last minute. Could not do this every week because it cut into work time too much. But proud of myself for her absence causing the kids so little change to their schedules.

Mrs. Hold thanked me on her return for the house not being a total disaster. She was even willing to spoon when we got to bed, something she never permitted earlier in our marriage and which I sorely missed. I liked it. Did not feel bitter that it did not lead to sex. But did not feel connected, either.

Over the weekend, I realized how my life is not as I want it in many ways. My fault for not doing better at work. And my fault for giving in too easily to Mrs. Hold's preferences.

We almost never have any adults over for dinner. I would like to entertain more often. But Mrs. Hold refuses. She is embarrassed that our house is not fancier. She is embarrassed that we cannot afford to serve fancy food. I remember during one MC sesison the counsellor said "if you make rack of lamb with doilies on the bones every time, people wont' invite you over because they can't or won't reciprocate. Sometime you need to serve hot dogs or spaghetti or pizza so people can feel comfortable."

Sunday night we went for Indian food because D12 was at the synchro meet. So we went for a cuisine she can't eat (allergies). Of course, Mrs. Hold prefers the most expensive Indian restaurant in town. Yes, the plates and napkins are lovely. But every dish is several dollars more than the other places. I am tired of POJAing what we can and cannot afford. I am sure she is tired of POJAing and not being able to afford what she wants.

I need to live my life. If we cannot reach POJA as to what to do, well, then I guess we will drift further apart. We would probably both be happier with different partners.

We started talking about her parents and how they relate. How her mother reacted to her father having surgery and then having cardiac problems and being in ICU. Apparently her mother withdrew into herself and was not able to be as supportive as Mrs. Hold thought was appropriate. Mrs. Hold said she would be there for me. She said we are going to grow old and wrinkled together. That she is not done with me.

I imagine I will like that when the time comes. I'm just not enthused about having to live through the time between now and then. She is saying everything that I would want my wife to say. But I don't feel good about it. I don't feel loved. Probably because I don't love myself.

Just more rambling eeyore thoughts. Wishing everyone a happy Monday.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/25/10 03:31 PM
Well...one good thing about today, Hold. The temps are up - at least in my region. I hope they are there too.

Maybe for today, you can allow yourself to rest from analyzing how you feel about Mrs. Hold.

Professionally, what more could you be doing, reasonably, to improve things in that arena?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/25/10 03:55 PM
Rainy and dreary here. Matches my mood. Guess I should be glad it isn't snowing. This much rain would be a foot or more of snow. But snow is so much prettier.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/25/10 04:03 PM
It is prettier - and quieter. We're also having high winds, and a very large tree came down and landed on top of my neighbor's house a few hours ago. I walked over, and they are fine, but what a mess.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 05:12 PM
Kudos on your single-dad week. Sounds like you really rocked it.

Gotta ask, Hold, though...

Can you ask new?

Can you be specific and ask MrsHold to have another couple over, in your entertaining desire, asking with the when, where, who, how of it planned out? "I would like...what do you think?"

About the Indian restaurant...did you end up at the expensive one? Can you choose the phrase, "I'm sorry, MrsHold...I can't go there because I would resent you for it." And offer a middle choice?

Not about what we can or not afford...the marriage cannot afford adding more resentment to the pile, from either of you.

Which you know.

More kudos on listening to her take on her own parents dynamic during stress. Nice partnering.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 05:23 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Can you ask new?

Can you be specific and ask MrsHold to have another couple over, in your entertaining desire, asking with the when, where, who, how of it planned out? "I would like...what do you think?"


Can I hold off on the DJs long enough to embark on a conversation where we try to POJA a mutually enthusiastic solution to my desire to entertain more? No, I can't. My bad. I want more entertaining. But not enough to go through another conversation with Mrs. Hold in which every suggestion is shot down as not fancy enough.

I know, huge DJ that this time will be the same as prior times. I once suggested our neighbors come over for drinks on a Sunday afternoon. The neighbor's wife said something like "did you clear it with Mrs. Hold? You know how touchy she is about having people over." So I am not imagining that Mrs. Hold is touchy about it. I know I should have POJAd having them over with Mrs. Hold before inviting the neighbors.

Which is why I find this so depressing. I don't feel comfortable POJAing this with Mrs. Hold. I don't feel comfortable inviting people over without POJAing it. So I just suffer in silence. Feeding my resentment. My choice.

At this point, my "solution" is to seek a social life without Mrs. Hold. Through the Men's Club at temple. Through temple social events. Not events at our home. Does not build our marriage. But at least it gets my EN partially satisfied.

I hate my life. But not enough to change it.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 06:15 PM
Are you saying that you won't ask new because you dwell in "old" in your head?

What's the worst that can happen? That she does old again? Which makes you right?

I understand you meeting this need safely with Men's Club. Just doesn't really meet it, given you thought about it and wanted to entertain.

Why not link it a tad? Have a Men's Club two-hour get together at your place? Let that be the ask new idea, with specifics...see, I'm not so sure you've asked with specifics before...so that you communicate your vision to MrsHold, instead of it being open-ended asking (old)...

I'm guessing. You know I'm guessing. Seeing where your thoughts dwell, in what isn't right now, gives you the hating your life feeling. Instead of not liking what went before for what it really was. When you ask new, you add dimension to the old...with new information.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 06:52 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Are you saying that you won't ask new because you dwell in "old" in your head?


Yes, exactly. The old is comfortable. The new is terrifying.

The problem is not in my lack of specifics. It is in our not being able to agree on specifics that allow both of us to be enthusiastic.

In years past we tried to brainstorm ideas so we could reach a POJA that was win-win. We pretty much never succeeded. At this point, the process is excruciating. We never get to win-win. And we are both exhausted from brainstorming. I don't want to have to work that hard. There has never been enough payoff to make the effort worthwhile.

Whereas the payoff from nursing my resentment is enormous.

At this point, when we attempt to POJA, it only leaves us feeling even more resentful that the other person has such different values and is so inflexible. It does not build loving feelings. It just fuels the bitterness. I'd rather spend the time playing video games. She'd rather watch tv. When the kids are grown, we can end the charade.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 07:16 PM
I would love to know if MrsHold's aversion to entertaining is feeling examined, rated, judged, filed.

Just another time I wanted to talk to her, on MB...as many times before. I think we have common ground, which exploring, could really help me in my marriage.

Just as you have, Hold.

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 07:24 PM
Well, I imagine that my posting here helps many women in their marriage. As in "thank the Lord I'm not married to that self-hating wet blanket".
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 07:41 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Well, I imagine that my posting here helps many women in their marriage. As in "thank the Lord I'm not married to that self-hating wet blanket".


Oh I don't know Hold,
Sometimes I read and I think "I wish my DH appeared to think on our M a fifth as much as Hold thinks on his.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 07:43 PM
Originally Posted By: lildoggie
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Well, I imagine that my posting here helps many women in their marriage. As in "thank the Lord I'm not married to that self-hating wet blanket".


Oh I don't know Hold,
Sometimes I read and I think "I wish my DH appeared to think on our M a fifth as much as Hold thinks on his.


Ditto.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 08:13 PM
But I bet you don't wish your H spent as much time thinking how LOUSY his marriage is. You probably want your H to spend time thinking how he could make the marriage better for you (or both of you).

It has been 5 years since I spent time wondering how I could make the marriage better for Mrs. Hold. I have spent most of my time thinking how I could balance making it worse for her, but not so much worse that she decides to leave. I wish I could STOP thinking about my marriage.

I have reviewed old posts of mine. Asking how I could make our anniversary special. Or Valentine's Day. Or how to set my expectations for a vacation so I don't put too much pressure on her (or on myself). Now I only post about how to get her to leave me alone without pushing her to leave me.

I wish I could get comfortable with leaving now. Staying under these conditions is ridiculous.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 08:43 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Now I only post about how to get her to leave me alone without pushing her to leave me.


Gotta say a "sure" here...like inviting her to SF, spooning, complimenting her on her weight reduction, discussing DS's camps and what you'd be enthusiastic about.

These are not great measures for getting her to leave you alone, IMO. And these acts seem to me to be not to make the marriage for MrsHold...have a marriage right now different than before.

Were you asking me if how I think you've helped my own marriage? Only from the side?

smile

LA
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 08:45 PM
Add my name to the list who often think, "Gee I wish my H cared that much... tried that hard... " etc. Many times.

You are a catch. Really.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 09:56 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
And these acts seem to me to be not to make the marriage for MrsHold...have a marriage right now different than before.


Who said I was trying to have a marriage now different than before? I am trying to maintain the status quo. We remain together but unhappy. I am not trying to change the unhappy part, because I do not believe that part can be changed without changing the together part.

Quote:
Were you asking me how I think you've helped my own marriage?


Well, I cannot deny being curious. wink
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 10:22 PM
Wanna practice asking? You're a slippery one, sir.

laugh

(and I left out a word...not making the marriage better for MrsHold...is what I intended)

I said "seemed to me"...my impression...so that "who says" is answered by...

Me.

If you don't ask MrsHold if she's unhappy right now, and assume it's so...then you'll be sure to have her as a companion in your unhappiness. Still including her, arencha, Hold?

LA
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 10:42 PM
No, I do not want to practice asking. That is what I do NOT want to practice. Asked plenty for many years. Got shot down. I try hard not to ask directly anymore.

I don't assume Mrs. Hold is unhappy overall. I am not bothered if she is. She may be happy. Perhaps truly happy. Perhaps telling herself she is happy to avoid feeling obligated to change things. Because she doesn't want to leave, either. Perhaps she is unhappy. In my view, deservedly so.

However, she feels, I am not doing things to help increase her happiness in the hopes she will reciprocate and meet my needs. There are plenty of times I "hear" her asking for more of my time and attention. I feel bad if I give in to her. I feel good if I reject her. That is a lousy way to feel.

I am the one who is unhappy. And I intend to stay this way. Which is why I am so depressed and distressed. I am making crazy choices. Knowingly. With no intention of stopping.
Posted By: LovingAnyway Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/27/10 10:55 PM
I wasn't asking you to ask MrsHold in my last post. I was saying that you hadn't really asked me about how you helped my marriage.

Came at it sideways, in my perception, twice.

In general, would you say that asking is difficult now, after your experience with MrsHold, maybe work, others? Or just me, MrsHold?

You say you don't assume MrsHold is unhappy overall. You know you used those words in your previous post, not with the specifier "overall", but wrapped in the "we" statement.

For the recent choices you've made, I don't see you acting to increase her happiness in the hopes she will reciprocate. The times I mentioned, you asked...not based on her possible response. Are ya slipping?

What if those recent acts on your part added to her love bank (accidentally, of course), hence, her stating she wants to grow old with you, be there for you...not because you got her to reciprocate...because that's what she really wants? You shared honestly, she shared honestly.

I'd ask you again, if the words you use in your head to tell your story today, are the original words you've used to tell the story of yourself to yourself. When in reality, the story has changed.

As all our stories do. Our experience doesn't catch up to reality, though, until we realize the change. Not huge, not earth-shattering...nonetheless, different.

LA
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 01:17 AM
Hold: Did you ever consider that your mental attitude could be taking a subtle but definite effect on your physical health? That you could be shaving some time off the end of your life? There have been studies that link happiness to increased health and better chances at longevity.

Don't you want to be around to be at your kids' weddings? Birth of grandchildren? Etc.
Posted By: lildoggie Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 04:24 AM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
But I bet you don't wish your H spent as much time thinking how LOUSY his marriage is. You probably want your H to spend time thinking how he could make the marriage better for you (or both of you).

you could be correct in that the last time he spent a long period thinking about how miserable the M was he had an affair. Still I dont think he thinks about our M at all, and if he was thinking about it nowadays, he might have something more productive to add to the conversation when I say "How can I help make it better" than a shoulder shrug.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 02:20 PM
Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
In general, would you say that asking is difficult now, after your experience with MrsHold, maybe work, others? Or just me, MrsHold?


Asking is hard for me in general. In all areas.

Quote:
You say you don't assume MrsHold is unhappy overall. You know you used those words in your previous post, not with the specifier "overall", but wrapped in the "we" statement.


When I said "together and unhappy, I meant together and ME unhappy". Whether she is happy or unhappy is only of concern to the extent that she is not sufficiently unhappy to leave.

Quote:
Are ya slipping?


Yes, I do slip from time to time. Ask for something I want. Meet one of her needs. I have still not sufficiently purged my "nice guy" tendencies. Every so often I do something she enjoys. I tell myself it is just so she won't divorce me.

Quote:
What if those recent acts on your part added to her love bank (accidentally, of course), hence, her stating she wants to grow old with you, be there for you...not because you got her to reciprocate...because that's what she really wants? You shared honestly, she shared honestly.


She may well want to grow old with me. It is one of her goals in life. She may even achieve her goal.

Quote:
Our experience doesn't catch up to reality, though, until we realize the change. Not huge, not earth-shattering...nonetheless, different.


I understand that any process of improvement will be a series of slow changes. I am not willing to cooperate in that process. I want either grand gestures and huge breakthroughs or nothing. I would rather be miserable than participate in a process of slow incremental improvement. To me that process was too painful when attempted in the past, and I am not willing to endure that pain again for the chance that the outcome will be different this time. I know it might be. I am not willing to invest in seeing if it is.

I am miserable now. I was even more miserable back when I was trying for improvement. It hurts less to tell myself no improvement is possible. Hope = pain. Any time hope arises, I squash it. I will not allow myself to hope things can get better. It hurts too much when they don't.

Noticing small improvements does not help. It hurts. It creates hope. Which is pain. I know this is in my head. That I could choose a different perspective. I am married to this perspective. As I am married to my bitterness and resentment. Those marriages have been much more rewarding to me than my marriage to Mrs. Hold. They hurt. But they cause me less pain than she does. With them, I get exactly what I expect. With her, I am continually left disappointed. At this point, she cannot do enough to overcome my bitterness. I am not so cruel as to allow her to try.

I understand full well the problem here. To achieve happiness, I would have to admit the truth of how I feel. Which I refuse to do because I fear if we placed the full truth front and center where neither of us can deny it, she would choose to leave. The one choice I fear most of all. Since I cannot tolerate the chance she might leave if I told the truth, I cannot do that which is crucial to change and improvement. I know I am dooming myself. I can't bring myself to make a different choice.

Remember, part of the truth is that I have absolutely no intention of doing what it would take to meet her ENs. Become more confident / successful / attractive. Even if she does meet mine. I don't fear her leaving solely because she will refuse to meet my needs. I fear her leaving because the truth would include that I refuse to meet hers.

Which we all know is the real core truth here. I don't really fear her refusal. I fear her saying "yes I will". I fear myself. That I will fall short.

The reason I am confortable not pushing her to meet my needs is that I feel that justifies my not meeting hers. Which excuses me not even trying to do so. Which means I won't try and fail. I will choose to fail. So I can fail with much less guilt.

THAT is why I don't try to make things better. And until I am willing to change that, all talk of change on her point is irrelevant. In fact, from that perspective, change on her part to do a better job at meeting my needs is bad. Why the heck do you think I work so hard to reject any suggestion that she has changed or is getting better? I don't want her to get better. That would put pressure on me to get better myself. No, I like it exactly how it is. Each giving the other permission to fail.

Cerri did not "fire" us only because Mrs. Hold refused to change. I was just as stubborn and inflexible. I just talk a better game.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 05:55 PM
hope=pain
I totally get what you're saying, Hold.
You know, sometimes I actually DO feel better when I know something I've done makes H unhappy. His actions seem to deliberately make me unhappy, so if I do something to make him happy, I feel like he got the better of it.
Take fighting, for instance.
For the sake of the children, I try to avoid conflicts, which means avoiding conversations, with H. When a few weeks go by, and there have been no "conflicts," H is quite happy. He tells our MC that "things are getting better."
But in fact, from my perspective, they've only gotten worse. I've had to stifle all the things I want to say, just to avoid any fights. (full disclosure: I'm usually the one who loses her cool) So, every day that goes by without a fight makes H happier, and every day that goes by without a fight means another day I've choked down all my anger, so I feel worse.
When we eventually DO have a fight, and that is always inevitable, I think, deep down, I actually feel a sense of relief, that H is finally feeling some of the pain I'm feeling.
What a sick and twisted relationship I have!!!! Dang, it sounds even worse when I write about it smile
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 06:25 PM
ima, I've BTDT!!!

It's sorta like Dr. Harley says in the article about the WAW (I think)... about how one spouse will eventually stop complaining, and the other will think things are now getting better, when actually the one who stopped complaining feels worse than ever since the reasons they are unhappy are still going on and they are not being addressed or even discussed.

The key is to keep up the complaints... in a respectful way of course. But to keep telling your spouse when you are unhappy about something. And keep saying it. And keep saying it. In a respectful way of course. Just a statement of fact, of how you feel when X happens. State it before it gets to the point of an argument.

Like the article ML just posted.

It kinda goes against some of what we often encourage each other to do here, because we usually try to focus on what the person posting here can do to make their "side of the street" better. But that does *not* mean to "suck it up" or to "shut your mouth", even though it sometimes may sound like it, especially when we here are focusing on encouraging each other to eliminate LBs and meet ENs, to try to get our spouse to feel enough love toward us that they will want to meet our ENs.

But some spouses are just going to be happy that their ENs are being met and that you have stopped complaining.

That's why it's so great when ppl are getting phone counseling with SH. Because he can get a more complete picture, and he applies the entire concept of restoring love and intimacy whereas we each here tend to become focused on our favorite little piece of MB.

It was SH who told me to keep telling my H when I was unhappy. Even if my H called it nagging (as long as I did it respectfully!). Even when ppl here were advising me not to.

It's a fine line. It's best if you are talking to a pro, if you aren't sure how much is not enough and how much is too much.

Sorry for the T/J... it doesn't have to be a T/J, hold, but you probably don't want to try it again in your own M, do you?
Posted By: jayne241 Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 06:47 PM
This is the most relevant part of that article to this type of situation, I think:

Quote:
It's very important for both you and your spouse to do a good job meeting each other's emotional needs, and avoiding behavior that causes each other's unhappiness. But when either of you have a complaint, I suggest that you use this procedure:

First, state your complaint as clearly as possible, guaranteeing your spouse's safety by avoiding demands, disrespect or anger. Be cheerful as you discuss the problem, and try to make it brief.

Second, ask for your spouse's perspective on your problem. How does your spouse view this same situation and what might make it difficult for him or her to accommodate you?

Third, brainstorm possible solutions to the problems, looking for a plan that would solve your problem, and at the same time take your spouse's feelings into account. Avoid any solution where one of you gains at the other's expense. Don't give or expect sacrifice because that means that one of you will be losing love units so that the other can gain them. If you sacrifice for each other, in the end, you won't have the mutual love for each other that you want. But also recognize the importance of eventually finding a solution that solves the problem.

Finally, from your list of possible solutions, choose the one that has the enthusiastic agreement of both you and your spouse. That way, the solution will deposit love units into both of your Love Banks simultaneously. If you can't find one that meets that standard, keep brainstorming.

To guarantee your love for each other, you and your spouse must address each other's complaints as soon as they arise. Don't let your problems build up before you find solutions, because the longer you wait, the more love units you lose. But, if you're not careful, the way you go about presenting your problem and trying to find solutions can also cause you to lose love units.

You will not only deposit love units by solving the problems themselves, but you will also deposit love units in the very way you go about solving the problem, if you do it the right way.

Most couples lose love units whenever they have a conflict because they present their complaints with demands, disrespect and anger. And then they look for solutions that help one spouse but hurt the other. That's no way to resolve conflicts, and it's certainly no way to stay in love.

The better you become at stating your complaints with your spouse's feelings in mind, and then finding solutions with the same thoughtfulness, the more you will feel like getting to each problem immediately. But until you get to the place where you feel like presenting your problems as soon as they occur, do it anyway. Don't try to lower your expectations, and don't try to meet your own emotional needs. Instead, learn to become experts at meeting each other's emotional needs. That way you will have what you have always wanted -- a fulfilling and passionate marriage.
here


Oops, the link didn't cut-and-paste... it's in the thread titled something like "When to Complain".
Posted By: TrulyHappytoBe Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 07:10 PM
With all due respect, you are truly nuts. Are you aware that this is the one and only life you will ever have?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 08:10 PM
Originally Posted By: TrulyHappytoBe
With all due respect, you are truly nuts. Are you aware that this is the one and only life you will ever have?


I know I am nuts. I keep telling people here I need ECT because I am totally nuts. They keep telling me I don't need ECT because I am not nuts enough. So who is really nuts?!?!

Jayne, you are correct. I do not want to go back to constantly complaining. That drove me even more nuts.

IMA, I feel yur pain. We get along great as long as I don't complain. Then I remind her my concerns have not been addressed and she says something like "Why are you complaining? I thought we were getting along well." Sheesh!
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 09:23 PM
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Originally Posted By: TrulyHappytoBe
With all due respect, you are truly nuts. Are you aware that this is the one and only life you will ever have?


I know I am nuts. I keep telling people here I need ECT because I am totally nuts. They keep telling me I don't need ECT because I am not nuts enough. So who is really nuts?!?!

Jayne, you are correct. I do not want to go back to constantly complaining. That drove me even more nuts.

IMA, I feel yur pain. We get along great as long as I don't complain. Then I remind her my concerns have not been addressed and she says something like "Why are you complaining? I thought we were getting along well." Sheesh!

ZZZackly how I feel.
When people ask why I stay, my answer is simple: I love my children and life isn't just about me. Before I had kids, it was ok to drink to excess, jump out of airplanes, do other daredevil stuff, but now that I have kids, I must put them first.
Before me.
Before H.
Because they didn't ask for this. And I sure as heck don't want to lose half of my time with them. Trulyhappy says this is nutz. Well, I've seen what happens in many divorces, and it ain't pretty. An endless parade of skanks and sketchy guys around my kids? Huh-uh. I'll continue to suffer for at least another 8-9 years, because I'm not selfish enough to put my kids through that.
Posted By: TrulyHappytoBe Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 09:41 PM
Originally Posted By: imanotherone
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Originally Posted By: TrulyHappytoBe
With all due respect, you are truly nuts. Are you aware that this is the one and only life you will ever have?


I know I am nuts. I keep telling people here I need ECT because I am totally nuts. They keep telling me I don't need ECT because I am not nuts enough. So who is really nuts?!?!

Jayne, you are correct. I do not want to go back to constantly complaining. That drove me even more nuts.

IMA, I feel yur pain. We get along great as long as I don't complain. Then I remind her my concerns have not been addressed and she says something like "Why are you complaining? I thought we were getting along well." Sheesh!

ZZZackly how I feel.
When people ask why I stay, my answer is simple: I love my children and life isn't just about me. Before I had kids, it was ok to drink to excess, jump out of airplanes, do other daredevil stuff, but now that I have kids, I must put them first.
Before me.
Before H.
Because they didn't ask for this. And I sure as heck don't want to lose half of my time with them. Trulyhappy says this is nutz. Well, I've seen what happens in many divorces, and it ain't pretty. An endless parade of skanks and sketchy guys around my kids? Huh-uh. I'll continue to suffer for at least another 8-9 years, because I'm not selfish enough to put my kids through that.


Don't you think that the children notice miserable parents? I remember telling my Mom and Dad when I was 12 that I wished they'd get divorced, because I really wanted to see them happy. When they finally did separate, we ALL sighed in relief. Mom was now happy and our time with Mom was much happier, and Dad was much happier, and our time together was quality as well. Much better than watching a miserable mother and father pretend to go through the motions for the "sake of the children".

I'm jumping in on a thread that has been existing for a long time - so I will just go on back to lurking on this thread.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 10:03 PM
THB: Thanks for your input. Sometimes it works that way. Glad it did for you. Not always. And hard to predict. There are successful divorces. And train wrecks. Some kids thrive. Some are decimated.

Given how nuts I am, can you reasonably predict that my divorce would be amicable and not a train wreck? Are you willing to bet my kids' futures on that prediction? I am not.

I am sure my unhappiness affects my kids negatively. That does not mean it affects them MORE negatively than divorce. It may be much less. I wish there was a way to know for sure how it would work out.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 10:04 PM
Ditto.
Posted By: imanotherone Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 10:16 PM
THB-you're correct, these things have been covered elsewhere, and the discussion about whether to "stay for the children" is as old as divorce.
If you came from a home where your parents "happily" divorced, then great. You're one of the lucky ones.
Most of the divorced couples I know:
1. Deal with a disgusting potential step-parent, or parade of new mommies or daddies before one finally takes.
2. Have the frustration of missing half of their children's milestones. You can't both be there for Christmas, for the dance recital, etc. So you get HALF.
3. Have kids that, whether deservedly or not, blame all their troubles on the divorce, especially in the teen years.
So it comes down to your personal experience, IMO. My personal experience says that I better stick this out, for their sake. When they're old enough, you can be darn sure I'm letting them know that my love for them was so great that I did this.
I don't need the "I just wish you and daddy had divorced" talk from my kids. My H has already shown a weakness for very young women, and I really don't want a near-teen raising my teen. Thank you very much.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/28/10 10:28 PM
ima,

dand, my W loves "discussions" or atleast she use to. I call them arguements, but she loves the back and forth, but hates to be wrong or not getting me to agree. She use to be good at getting me to agree to end the f------ arguement that drove me nuts. Now I just keep up with her and she loses it. I don't know why she does it though, b/c she knows they are opinions that will not change.
Posted By: Retread Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/29/10 03:15 AM
It sounds like the two of you are performing ritual confrontations. Consider the possibility that it is a safe place for both of you. You enable her and she enables you. You are going to have to get out of playing your game in order to force her to quit playing. Just my $0.02.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/29/10 04:47 AM
Does he want her to quit playing? Or does he like using her misbehavior to justify his own? I know I do.
Posted By: Soolee Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/29/10 01:10 PM
So, basically what you guys are saying is that there's a reward for the type of behavior you're using with your spouses? As long as there's some measure of contention in the relationship, what they've put you through doesn't hurt so badly. Is that it?
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/29/10 04:07 PM
For me, it is a combination. One part is the fear that I cannot succeed. Not with my wife. Not with any woman. To the extent I fear I cannot succeed, I am looking for an excuse not to even try. My wife's misbehavior justifies my not even trying. Helps me be more comfortable with my (foolish, unhealthy, shortsighted) choice.

Second, the conflict shows that she is unhappy. If I am going to be unhappy (and I am), at least this way she is unhappy too. I know, not the most loving attitude. But at this point, after trying and failing for 8 years, it hurts less to fight than to cater to her needs with no reciprocation. When I do that, I feel like a wimpy doormat. When I refuse to do what she wants, I feel more powerful.

Dr. Harley would say "don't fight, negotiate to get your own needs met". BTDT. I have given up hope of getting my needs met.
Posted By: themud Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 01/29/10 05:11 PM
It is a self empowering situation, Soolee, so yes it does seem that way. My W is kind of getting it though. She is finally figuring out that in a M there are TWO people, not employer and employee, which is how I was treated for years. Bad employee... demoted, good employee... a pat on the back. What she didn't understand is how that type of relationship was hurting our M, and me. She couldn't grasp that it wasn't working or why it wasn't working.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/01/10 01:22 PM
Mrs. Hold and I went to dinner with friends of hers from college Friday night. Saturday night we went to a party for a friend's child. Friday Mrs. Hold had 2 glasses of wine. When we got home, she asid "don't come near me or I'll puke on you." So I went and played PS3.

Saturday when the dj played a song I like I put my hand gently on the small of her back and nudged her toward to dance floor. She snapped "don't push me, I hate that". I replied "of course you don't, God forbid you should ever do anything I want". I know, bad Hold, not a loving response. Should have said "Good to know. I will never nudge you again."

Today I called her from work (got here early and computer froze twice so accomplished nothing from 6 to 8 am - argh) to tell her I sent the fax she asked me to send. Just a quick FYI. She wanted to stay on the phone longer. I cut her off. I got huge pleasure from cutting her off. She was asking for more connection. Emotional connection. More time being the object of my attention. I enjoyed rejecting her. After all the times she rejected me. It is a joy to turn the tables on her.

I know that is a bad secondary payoff. And I should strive to reach a win-win for both of us. But I do not believe a win-win is achievable. I do not believe my needs will ever get met. So I settle for emotional junk food.
Posted By: OurHouse Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/01/10 01:36 PM
Good morning Hold:

I'm not going to argue with you about marriagebuilding techniques and applying them, or resentment and its issues or any of that. I understand you are making the choices you are making, though it makes me sad and leaves me to wonder if there are areas of your life where you are getting enjoyment to help counter the misery of your marriage?

But FWIW, I absolutely *hate* being pushed along by my husband, my kids or anyone. I'm barely 5'2", have hovered near 110-115lbs most of my life and I just don't take up a lot of space in this world. It's very upsetting to be moved around like a china doll and I have been known to snap, even when it's inadvertent. I'm not justifying Mrs. Hold's actions--she certainly could have communicated her dislike of that action wtihout snapping...I'm just passing along a female perspective.
Posted By: holdingontoit Re: Mrs. Hold Made the Team - 02/01/10 02:33 PM
I know she dislikes being nudged. She has complained before. My bad for thoughtlessly doing it again. I should have verbally asked her if she was interested in dancing with me.

I know I should be all