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Hitch is correct.


When you can see it coming, duck!
EasyE #2475866 02/12/11 12:50 PM
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EasyE

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ThornedRose, I think your assessment is a little harsh.

I don't believe Hold cares to control anyone.

I think he sufferes from chronic boredom.


And that's okay if you think I'm being a little harsh, but from having been reading this threads over all these years, he's had the same complaints..radical honesty is often times harsh...

1. She wants a certain lifestyle..he knows he is fully capable of providing the life style--heck he enjoys that lifestyle too..but he refuses to do what it takes to provide it, in order to make her mad..why?? because of his other complaints about her over the years...

2. He's not getting sex as often as he wants it..so I'll control the amount of money that comes into the house until she starts having sex with me as often as *I* want it..

3. She's fat..she needs to lose weight.she's remedied this and has taken that complaint off the table

4. She's not working--she's remedied that as well, and got a job--heck she's even changed some of her ways of spending, and found less expensive venues--

but even those changes are not good enough for him to change himself--


he has in fact done things to punish her for her lavish spending in the past, and her lack of sexual interest in him (what woman finds a self-loathing man attractive or sexually desirable?? what wife finds a husband who puts a money value on sex attractive or desirable??)

He is a tit-for-tat type person..(just from reading his posts over the years, its evident)

if she has sex w/ me x number of times--then I'll buy her that piece of Jewelry I know she wants from Tiffany's..

he loathes her for spending thousands of dollars after they married to furnish *their* home..(money he saved before they married)

he prefers to sulk and whine about not having sex as often as HE wants as opposed to changing himself--he'd rather control the amount of money coming into the home as a way to punish her for his not getting sex as often as he'd like it..

Most assuredly, she could use sex to get the things she wants..she could have sex with the man everyday...but why should she prostitute herself like that to someone who professes to love her??? Have sex for trinkets? have sex for more money to be provided?? how insulting for her as both a woman and his wife..

he has said in the past he feels like an ATM, yet he is the one who has placed a 'money' value on his love, and even sex within the confines of their marriage--yet he wants to cast blame on her for the lack of sex in their marriage..no woman, no wife wants to be treated as a prostitute in their marriage 'earning trinkets' for sex..

While both sex and financial support are important aspects of marriage, neither one should be used to manipulate or get what you want from the other person..

So he must ask himself...is she really refusing to have sex with him because he's not providing financially the way he is fully capable of providing? or because she refuses to be treated as nothing more than a prostitute???

Well, given some of the comments he has shared over the years, I would boldly say..she refuses to be treated as a prostitute in her marriage..and she will continue to refrain from having sex with him as long as he ties money and trinkets to that aspect of their marriage..


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Hold has said himself that he does not know if the forum is a help or a crutch.

If the forum is giving him too much sympathy and enabling him to stay in his position, I think it better for the posters to change their direction, rather than the idea of banning Hold from this forum in the assumption that this is somehow going to transform him.

To remove the forum would remove some sympathy but also deny him the cutting posts from TR.

Not being here 10 years ago I flicked back to Holds early posts and there it is:

>>>>
And that is here it plays into my resentment from my youth. If she is going to make me do this the hard way, then why should she get the benefit from my making myself more self-confident? I resent her for making this hard on me. She is my wife. She is supposed to make my life easier. My work on myself would be easier if she would accomodate my needs.
<<<<<
So the issue remains the same.
It seems simple, but to go from a state of resentment due to shattered confidence, to a state of being self confident, presents like a chasm that can not be crossed.

It is apparent that most people when entering marriage do not have the skill sets needed to deal with the issues that they will later face. That is why MB exists.
Hold may need a rhema that flicks a switch and thereby makes such I giant leap, into the small step it can be. Maybe it comes from the forum, or somewhere least expected.

Hold without a rhema, there still seems to be enough in the previous 6-7 months, for you to be able to reflect on when things were going well and also the things you did that caused derailment. That would head you in the right direction.

Jackblack #2476351 02/14/11 09:26 AM
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I have been derailed since before I got married. Hopefully my present despair over who I have become will motivate me to become someone I can be proud of. TR is correct. I need slaps, not support.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Jackblack #2476355 02/14/11 09:48 AM
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A person who has the same problem year after year doesn't really want change, and hold has alluded to this himself. People who really want resolution find resolution.

It is notable to me that we have many people on this forum [the old Emotional Needs forum] who come here year after year and have the same problem today they arrived with years ago. They have been coming here for years and know nothing about Marriage Builders. They have never used the program in all these years - never even considered it. These old posters show up every month. It is just amazing to me the stark contrast between this and the other MB forums, which tend to be more solution and action oriented.

Part of the problem is that folks historically don't discuss or understand Marriage Builders on this forum and are under the impression the point here is to discuss conflicts.....for years. That dynamic tends to attract folks who are attached to their problems because it gives them a platform for endless venting.

We have people who have been on this website [in other forums] who know more about MB in 6 months than older members who have been here for 10 years. But then, they are looking for solutions.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Yes, ML, you are correct. I have not been seeking resolution. I have been seeking to maintain the status quo. I wanted to stay married to Mrs. Hold and live with my kids while they were minors. I have done that. Now that the kids are getting ready to leave home, my anxiety level is increasing. Hopefully that will motivate me to change in a positive direction.

And it is a presumptuous DJ on your part to say those of us who have chosen not to implement MB do not know or understand it. Some of us know and understand it quite well. We simply have decided not to implement it. That might mean we are foolish. But it doesn't necessarily imply we are ignorant.

Which tends to explain why the long time no progress people are here at ENs / 101. Infidelity tends to render the status quo intolerable. So it makes sense that people in GQII and SAA are seeking resolution one way or the other. Those of us who are "merely" being neglected (or neglecting our spouses) are much more likely to be willing to tolerate the status quo.


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[quote=holdingontoit)Infidelity tends to render the status quo intolerable. So it makes sense that people in GQII and SAA are seeking resolution one way or the other. Those of us who are "merely" being neglected (or neglecting our spouses) are much more likely to be willing to tolerate the status quo. [/quote]


This makes total sense to me. My DH was/is depressed like Hold. After my A he made amazing changes to himself but now we are sliding back to the status quo. It is scary and difficult to make yourself make changes....like pulling off a band aid. Intellectually you know it is the right thing but....what if you are wrong? I don't want to be without my kids...even part time.

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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
And it is a presumptuous DJ on your part to say those of us who have chosen not to implement MB do not know or understand it. Some of us know and understand it quite well. We simply have decided not to implement it. That might mean we are foolish. But it doesn't necessarily imply we are ignorant.


hold, I understand that your situation is different in that you a) understand Marriage Builders and b) have rejected its implementation. That is not the case with most long time posters here. How can one know about Marriage Builders when they come here for years on end and discuss specific conflicts and every dog and cat book/program under the sun OTHER THAN Marriage Builders? How would they even know about Marriage Builders since it is not mentioned in the most widely recommended book for the past few years, Dances with Anger?

The Marriage Builders books and services are widely recommended on other forums and have been for YEARS, but look at how I am treated on this forum when I recommend a MB book? I have been accused of trying to "sell books" and all manner of nefarious motives for simply recommending the BOOK that explains this program. crazy How bizarre is that? I never saw board members accused of the same nefarious motives when they regularly recommended Dances with Anger.. crazy But, Lord help them when someone recommends a Marriage Builders book!!

The reason there is no progress on this board is real simple: very few folks here use Marriage Builders. They come here and talk about everything BUT Marriage Builders. It can't work if you don't work it obviously. Making endless posts about specific conflicts is the favored practice around here and it is a distraction from using the program.

As far as it being a "DJ" to state that truth, I would point out that I am not married to you and it is not my goal to establish a love bank with you. I like ya, but I don't love ya, hold! grin


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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p.s. most of the marriages over on the private forum did not have infidelity in them and they are just as recovered as the ones who did. Dr Harley states that most couples who come to him for help contain at least ONE reluctant spouse.

In short, the fact that a marriage has infidelity has no seeming relation whether or not they recover. The difference is that those on the other forums are actually using the program. They historically have not used the program over here.

Everything I have told you here is a pretty common reaction of those in recovered marriages who come over here for the first time. They wonder if they have wandered on some alien website because it hardly recognizable as a Marriage Builders forum.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Infidelity tends to render the status quo intolerable. So it makes sense that people in GQII and SAA are seeking resolution one way or the other. Those of us who are "merely" being neglected (or neglecting our spouses) are much more likely to be willing to tolerate the status quo.


Actually, this is not true. More marriages break up from NEGLECT than abuse. If anyone is more inclined to tolerate the status quo it would be an abuse victim.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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holdingontoit

Quote:
I have been derailed since before I got married. Hopefully my present despair over who I have become will motivate me to become someone I can be proud of. TR is correct. I need slaps, not support.


Honestly Hold, You need both..

I have learned in my own life, that someone who 'slaps me' often cares more for me and my marriage than people who enable me stay wallowing in my hurt, pain and/or self pity..(not that anyone here is *desiring* to do that, I believe they all desire you to grow and have a better marriage..but because you refuse to change--even using this forum as an outlet--you are inadvertently being enabled, when not called out on the truth that it has been about 10 years and you have not done anything to really change yourself or your attitude towards your wife--and yet, still expect things to change..more importantly expect HER to change..while you stay the same)

It is when others look past the BS and call me on it that I know, I can no longer 'hide' behind it..because I know they will continue to call me out on it..or they will eventually stop pandering to me..and allow me to suffer the natural consequences of my own choices..one of which is a loss of relationship with them, they will no longer desire to spend time with me, or be there as part of my support system when I REALLY NEED it...


You've been saying for how many years you 'want' to get ECT? But yet, even that you have refused to follow through on..and it appears you just want others to tell you.."no..don't do it" and thus your needed 'excuse' not to go forward and do it..is it a wise decision to go through that? personally, I don't think it is, I believe it would do more harm to you mentally than not..
however, that being said..if it's that important to YOU to go through it..you would find a way to pay for it..just as you find a way to pay for other things (like your video games) and just as you 'expect' your wife to find a way to pay for things she wants (like an expensive birthday party in the city for your daughter) so stop with the BS on that topic, it's not that important to you...or you would have already found a way to pay for it..

Just as with counseling, if it was that important to you, you would find a way to pay for it..just like others have done, but you don't want to do counseling, because it would require YOU to make changes and have to answer to the counselors for not doing anything..sure you've tried it before..and your wife didn't want to participate..but how much did YOU really want to participate when it came to making changes within yourself??

How much of it was they told you things you didn't want to hear or didn't want to change so you quit?

Why not read this article by Dr. Harley?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_differences.html


How can you honestly say you really love your wife, if it seems that everything she does/doesn't do to meet your needs, you put a dollar amount on it??? That my dear friend is not love...


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The common themes I see on the long time posters who keep coming back with the same problems is that they are denial about what they have accepted. They go back and forth claiming they've accepted things, when clearly they haven't or they would shut up about it.

Second, they seem to be on the lookout for the magic bullit. They magical words that are going to convince them that they should do x or y, or whatever. But they are stuck in analysis paralysis, because no matter what anyone says, they are not convinced.

Convincing them requires certainty of outcome which can not be provided in any way that eliminates all risk. And usually they are extremely risk adverse.

And even if a relatively low risk option is presented, their life experiences coupled with their own certainty around their decision making skills makes them extremely biased in considering any suggestions. Meaning regardless of what they say about past choices, they at one time thought it was the right thing to do and it apparently didn't work out, so they conclude that even if they believe it's the right thing to do, they aren't going to do it because they expect they will be wrong again.

It all combines to resigning themselves to no action because nothing sounds like it will work, and even if does sound like it will work, they feel they are probably wrong about that, so don't do it. So to them, the best thing to do is wait around until everything blows up.

In this way, they can just wait for their life to "happen to them". Which I suppose for some is more palatable to having tried and failed. But for most, it's not, so, they seek advice for their plight as a proxy for having tried.

Just my $0.02


Me 43 BH
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Jackblack #2476651 02/14/11 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jackblack
Hold has said himself that he does not know if the forum is a help or a crutch.

If the forum is giving him too much sympathy and enabling him to stay in his position, I think it better for the posters to change their direction, rather than the idea of banning Hold from this forum in the assumption that this is somehow going to transform him.

To remove the forum would remove some sympathy but also deny him the cutting posts from TR.


I agree. There is no way to ban someone from this site, unless that person breaks the site terms and conditions, which HOLD certainly does not do. HOLD probably knows what I meant when I posted what I posted, which is that he must choose to walk away from this site for while, as this site serves primarily as a distraction for him, just like it did me. For narcissists, sites like this don't help, they simply feed the narcissism. Narcissists will do pretty much anything to remain distracted and to avoid working on their own problems. We are professionals at practicing avoidance when it comes to change. smile

To be clear, I don't believe your assertion that having other posters change their message to HOLD will help. It's been ten years, and I've been around here about that long as well (though you won't find many posts about my own life except in the archives possibly), and I've seen a lot of 2 x 4's hit HOLD over the years with no substantive results. So I ask you, what is anyone here going to do differently that is going to have any real effects on HOLD? What are you going to do JackBlack? Hit him harder? Already been done by many MANY people before you. On the rare occasions when someone can actually get through HOLD's skin, he'll simply avoid responding to your posts, or placate you enough to shut you up, or at worst, if you can manage to see through the placation, he'll simply reply and ask you to stop posting in his threads (seen that before too with Starfish if memory serves).

I know my responses here may seem uncalled for, but it's only because I honestly believe it's the best thing for HOLD - he needs some tough love so to speak. You can't outplay a narcissist, trust me, I know, I have major narcissistic tendencies myself. I think HOLD needs a long term break from this forum (he's had minor breaks from posting at MB in the past as well). Many here, including myself, reached that same conclusion, and left for a while, or altogether (like Starfish and Takola).

I believe the primary reason HOLD stays here is because this site fulfills one purpose only for him, it's a coping mechanism. He has no plans to change, and as he has said many times, he's simply biding his time, therefore this site serves as a coping mechanism to vent.

What I think has changed over the last year or so, is Mrs HOLD. She is finally waking up to the fact that HOLD isn't going to deliver to her any time soon what she wants in a spouse. Therefore, she is making the changes necessary in her life to move on, when the time is right. Hence the weight loss, the job, and other substantive improvements in her life.

There is a sliver of hope as I see it. As Dr Schnarch wrote about in his book Passionate Marriage, when one spouse starts the process of differentiating (changing their inner core), the other spouse must react. The initial reaction is to resist the change. Dig in the heels and try and convince the differentiating spouse to stop the process of differentiation. If the differentiating spouse doesn't stop, then one of two outcomes is possible. One, the resistant spouse is forced to start their own differentiation process (i.e. changing their inner core values), or the the resistant spouse refuses to change despite the pressure to better themselves. In the latter case, eventually the differentiating spouse will eventually leave the relationship, not because they are bitter or angry per se, but because that spouse has better differentiated him/herself enough that they can no longer remain in the marriage and maintain their more healthy internal/core values.

Obviously I don't know Mrs HOLD, but from what HOLD represents of her, she has started her own process of differentiation, and since we are "one" in marriage, change in one spouse means change for the other spouse. HOLD is experiencing pressure/anxiety as a result of Mrs HOLD's process of better differentiating herself. Right now, HOLD is trying his best to paint two different, yet directly opposing, pictures. On the one hand he appears to be supportive of her efforts, and in some ways he really is genuinely supporting her efforts to change. On the other hand, he's painting himself into a corner, because HOLD refuses to better differentiate himself.

I've seen many here wonder out loud why HOLD refuses to change, that he is addicted to his misery per se. In part, that may be the case, especially for a narcissistic personality. However, Schnarch says this is a natural reaction even for otherwise healthy people. We all cling to the familiar, even when the familiar is bad for us. We all resist the process of differentiation - because that process, while necessary, is painful and plagued with uncertainty. No matter how much the misery may hurt, it is familiar to HOLD, and as a narcissist, the unfamiliar is, well, terrifying in most respects, because the unfamiliar is something that is external and therefore not at all welcome in the narcissistic worldview.

Think of it this way. The process of differentiation is the process of gradually increasing the scope of ourselves (self expansion). Think circle of life, with one big circle, and one really small circle within the big circle. The small circle represents you. The large circle represents what you can be. Now comes marriage, now there are two circles within that big circle - one for you and one for your spouse. We all start off small, and the two circles intersect (cross over one another) just a little bit when we're first married. In otherwise healthy marriages, the crucible of marriage, the process of differentiation, gradually grows the size of the small circles into larger circles - as each spouse undergoes differentiation. The two circles also increasingly intersect - representing the two spouses becoming one. Eventually, the small circles become so large and so intertwined that they appear as one large circle that eclipses the size of the larger circle that originally contained the two smaller circles.

HOLD's problem with respect to this process, has to do with his narcissism. Narcissists are unable to make the leap to better differentiation, regardless of the amount of pressure. For otherwise normal people, who initially resist differentiation, the anxiety/pain/depression/discomfort of the familiar eventually becomes more painful than the fear of the unknown. At that point, the resistant spouse jumps into the circle and starts their own differentiation process. For a narcissist, no amount of pain offered up via the misery of the familiar will permit the jump into the unknown. Narcissists aren't really capable of much personal growth - defined as the expansion of self. To experience self expansion (differentiation) - you have to both acknowledge and embrace that which is external to you - the unknown. Not exactly something a narcissist can easily accomplish IME. Herculean efforts are required for narcissists to better differentiate themselves.

To circle back to my original point, I believe this forum directly conflicts with HOLD's ability to better differentiate himself, because this forum serves as a feeding tube for his narcissism - his ability to continue to choose to merely cope rather than to choose to change. Who knows, maybe HOLD can succeed where I failed, and figure out a way to use the MB forums to effect positive change rather than to merely cope. I couldn't do it personally, which is why I left for several years and am now only back in a limited capacity. HOLD, what say you?


God Bless,

HitchHiker

All I want to do is learn to think like God thinks. , I want to know Gods thoughts; all the rest are just details. , When the solution is simple, God is answering. - Albert Einstein

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Hitch is again correct.


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I think Mrs. Hold leaving would actually be a good thing.

Like when the transmission goes out of your car. You have to do something.

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Originally Posted By: ThornedRose
he knows he is fully capable of providing the life style--


This is the only part of your quote I disagree with. I know no such thing. I was failing at work before I met Mrs. Hold. I can remember the department head where I worked years ago (before I married Mrs. Hold) saying "You are not cutting it. Decide whether this is what you want to do with your life. If not, quit. If you stay, you need to improve your game. You are on the bubble for being fired. Get off the bubble one way or the other."

Yes, I made junior partner at a firm in Chicago. But my uncle was a large client, and my uncle's golfing buddy was another big client. Did I REALLY make partner, or did they make me partner to keep my uncle and his buddy happy? Not sure I want to know.

So no, I do not know I am fully capable of providing the lifestyle Mrs. Hold wants. Otherwise, everything you said is spot on.


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So, your failures are because of you, your capabilities, and your choices, but your successes are because of good luck?


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rprynne #2478971 02/18/11 04:26 PM
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Interesting last post, Hold.

Maybe you should get yourself a good, loyal dog and load up a Chevy van and drive around the country for awhile.

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Originally Posted By: EasyE
Interesting last post, Hold.

Maybe you should get yourself a good, loyal dog and load up a Chevy van and drive around the country for awhile.


Ha! That is similar to what I suggested to him a while back. I had more in mind a Green Acres thing though....total change of lifestyle.

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SM, just trying to imagine MrsHold as Zsa Zsa Gabor!

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