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OK, I will stop saying it. Clearly it is de-motivating to her (as it would be to many people). And you are correct, of course she doesn't want to have to convince me I'm not a loser - because that would require her to have sex with me. Which she knows darn well. So I will stop saying I am a loser. But unless and until we have more sex (extremely unlikely to occur), then I will still FEEL like a loser.

If that is the case, I am not sure that my refraining from saying it makes much difference. Except to make it easier for her to live in denial. Which promotes my goal of staying married for 5 more years. Hence my motivation to stop saying it out loud.

Then again, if I am determined to measure my self worth as a person by my partner's willingness to have sex with me (and I am), and I am married to someone who has little or no willingness to do so, then maybe I should question yet again my goal of staying married to that person.


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You should question a lot of things, Hold.

It is much easier to hate yourself and stay mired down in the muck of what a loser you are... to be dark and depressed... than it is to untangle the mess and deal with the anger than is most likely seething within you.

Some part of you, deep down inside, (in places "you don't talk about at parties"), some little tiny part KNOWS that you do not deserve to be treated like sh*t. By your family, by your wife, by people at work, by ANYONE.

But if you listen to that part, if you choose to live differently, than your feelings become scary.

They aren't scary now. They are dark and dismal and hard, and wearying, and FAMILIAR.

Anger is scary. Terrifying in fact, if you have never gotten to the other side of it.

So much easier to hate yourself for your wife's rejection, then to deal with your life.

But here's the secret that you don't know, because you've never known it to be much different:

It CAN be different. YOU can be different, without a lobotomy, and without ECT.

If you aren't willing to do intensive therapy, would you be willing to see a LIFE COACH? Someone who will work with you on taking some ACTION with your life? Versus just rehashing all the problems that you have and leaving you there?

I'm sorry I'm mad about this today. I just feel like you're a kid sitting at a picnic. The sun is shining and flowers are growing, and you're wrapped up in a big, dark, itchy blanket, and you keep making a cave out of it. You're saying "I'd be happy if someone would just come in here with me and touch me". But even when someone DOES touch you, you only take the cover off the top of your head for a few minutes. You refuse to come out and cast the blanket off and really play. Then, on the very rare occasions when you have played, you carry the blanket with you, and it makes you hot and sweaty, and sometimes you trip over it because it's so long and awkward and heavy.

No one can pull it off you, you are holding on to it for dear life. Usually you just sit in it hating yourself, thinking mean things, longing to be rescued.

From one blanket dweller to another... GET UP, GET OUT, and GET BUSY PLAYING IN THE SUNSHINE.

You only have one ONE life, my friend. Make the most of it! Find ways to make the most of it.

(Would you consider a life coach?)


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Great analogy. Very apt. And you managed to up the quadruple entendre on my username up to a quintuple entendre. Thanks.

Crawling back under blanket now.


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Originally Posted By: Telly
It is much easier to hate yourself and stay mired down in the muck of what a loser you are... to be dark and depressed... than it is to untangle the mess and deal with the anger than is most likely seething within you.


Actually, I believe the exact opposite, at least with respect to the long term. It is much easier to create excuses in our mind as to how difficult or hard something may be in the short term when the truth is that change is not nearly as difficult as we all tend to make it out to be, and we discount how much better our lives will be over the long term in the process. As a result, we live with long term pain and unhappiness, rather than endure short term adversity/uncertainty that most likely results in long term happiness/contentment. IMHO it is really much harder on us to continue to hate ourselves, our choices, than it is to improve ourselves and adapt. Why do something hard when something easy is available right? Trouble is, what we oftentimes think is the easy road is in fact not the easy road long term. We choose what may seem easy in the short term, but with long term adverse consequences that result in depression, anxiety, and bitterness. We must take the road less traveled and change if we want a chance at contentment IMHO.

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It CAN be different. YOU can be different, without a lobotomy, and without ECT.


And I'd add without near as much effort as you believe it will take, if you can adopt a mindset that eliminates the excuses beforehand, i.e. it's hard, it's too expensive, it takes too long, my family won't accept me, etc. Change is difficult because we believe it is difficult, we are our own worst enemies within our our minds (internal dialogue) for the most part IME - at least I know I am when it comes to my own life.

Last edited by HitchHiker; 04/08/10 03:30 PM.

God Bless,

HitchHiker

All I want to do is learn to think like God thinks. , I want to know Gods thoughts; all the rest are just details. , When the solution is simple, God is answering. - Albert Einstein

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The only one who DOESN'T see it as a charade is you Hold.

Unfortunately, from my limited vantage, you are simply teaching your children that your (and ultimately THEIR) needs are not valid and therefore they will feel compelled to relive what they have known. ie YOUR life.

I feel for you, because SF is a huge factor for me and one of the leading reasons I initially LOVED my wife... and one of the biggest reasons we are getting divorced. I make no apology for my desire for her, but you YOURSELF posted links to 2 articles a couple years back on my thread. I read them and broke down, because those articles were stating things exactly how I felt.

However, now you are disregarding those articles, and taking on a victim role. Stating things which make me believe that you have forgotten the essence of the articles. It is that MEN in general, and some men in particular, get a huge amount of LOVE from making love. When that is gone... it is GONE!

IMO... your children would be much better off with a divorced dad who had a spine and could teach them how to have their needs met rather than a doormat who teaches them that their needs are not worthy of being met.

Harsh... I know... but I am talking to MYSELF as much as YOU

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CFIO:

Nice to see you again. Sorry to hear about the divorce. But as you say, it may be the best for all concerned.

What you say is not harsh. It is true. If I have been ignoring reality as much as Mrs. Hold for the past 18 years, I have no one to blame but myself when someone says "open your eyes".


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The biggest issue is that I do not love and respect myself enough to insist on what I need and want from life, and to work toward obtaining it. We can disagree on whether my working toward what I need would require me to divorce Mrs. Hold. I think we all agree I need to start working toward something and not just wasting my life sitting around waiting to die.


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The miserable familiar is less scary than the possible rejection. Yes, I made up that quote myself and know what it is like to live it.

Any ideas or inspiration of what you might could work toward?

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What's your passion, Hold?

(not sexual passion)

What's your "bliss"?

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No passion or bliss. Too depressed. I have been depressed so long all I have are distractions / numbing agents, no real passions.

On a more positive note, D13 has been pushing hard for a puppy. Until now we have avoided one because D13 is allergic. Mrs. Hold made an appointment with the allergist to see if D13 can live with one of the less allergen-producing breeds. I think this would be a big help for our family. A dog would give me another outlet for my need for Physical Touch.

As I said to Mrs. Hold today, "a puppy will let me rub behind its ears pretty much whenever I want". She didn't say "ouch", but I could hear a chill in her tone in response. I understand she may feel bad that she does not meet my need for Physical Touch. But hopefully she will be enthusiastic about the idea of doing something that may help me be less depressed. Assuming, of course, that we get the OK from the allergist. D13's health is more important than any pet.


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I have gotten to the point after years of teaching that when my students do something they know they shouldn't do or don't do something they should do and then say "I'm sorry," I respond, "Don't be sorry. Be different." That's kind of how I feel in general. Don't be sorry. Don't feel bad. Be different. I sense you have that feeling too.

My brother has horrible asthma and allergies, and he did well with our daschund. And daschunds are sweet and lovey dovey. I still miss Muffin.

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Originally Posted By: lurioosi2
I have gotten to the point after years of teaching that when my students do something they know they shouldn't do or don't do something they should do and then say "I'm sorry," I respond, "Don't be sorry. Be different." That's kind of how I feel in general. Don't be sorry. Don't feel bad. Be different. I sense you have that feeling too.


Quite the opposite. I do and don't do plenty of things I feel sorry about. I know I should be different. But I don't choose to be. That is my bad regardless of whether Mrs. Hold is also doing or not doing things she regrets. Or maybe doesn't regret.

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My brother has horrible asthma and allergies, and he did well with our daschund. And daschunds are sweet and lovey dovey. I still miss Muffin.


Yes, we will clearly need to get a poodle or hairless or some form of "doodle" that is not very allergenic. I had a poodle mix as a kid. She was great. I still have her ashes in my basement (our parents wouldn't let us bury her in the back yard). Poodles tend to be smart and high strung so I like a mix with something a little more - hmmmm, how to say this without a massive canine DJ - relaxed and incurious.


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Mrs. Hold gave me a "pep talk" this morning in honor of my birthday. That our life is not bad and we have alot to be thankful for. I basically told her every waking moment is agony and I am just putting one foot in front of the other to carry out my responsibilities to her and the children. I have lost all hope for the future and all confidence that I can improve my situation.

And you guys wonder why I fear that if I were Radically Honest with her she would leave me?


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Try to look at it another way, Hold:

Be thankful your wife is not as negative as you are. Be thankful that she is still thankful for something. You can be Radically Honest about the fact that things are good for her, and the children, and for you, but things could be a lot better for both of you, and what is missing is largely within her control. She has the power to make things better. You have to think about things better, and recognize the positive when it is there and seize it as an opportunity to Complain Politely.

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Hold, how did she respond when you told her this?

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Originally Posted By: Retread
You can be Radically Honest about the fact that things are good for her, and the children, and for you, but things could be a lot better for both of you, and what is missing is largely within her control. She has the power to make things better. You have to think about things better, and recognize the positive when it is there and seize it as an opportunity to Complain Politely.


This is where my pessimism really hurts me. I do NOT believe it is within her control. I do NOT believe she has the power to make things better. I do NOT believe that there is any chance Complaining Politely will get her to change.

You see, somewhat perversely, it is only by convincing myself that she is NOT capable of change that I have been able to stay with her. If I thought she WERE capable of changing, but is choosing not to change, I would hate her so much I could not remain in the same room with her.

That is the irony. My coping strategy is to convince myself there is no hope for change on her part. Of course, convincing myself of that dooms me to never be happy (because I know I don't have the guts to leave her). And if I am never going to be happy, why even try? At anything.

Wow, I really need help. Telly suggesting that I do inpatient for a month seems more reasonable lately.


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Is it your birthday, Hold?

Happy Birthday...

((((Hold)))))

I wish things were better for you...


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Are you taking Antidepressants? I highly recommend this in that not only will it help YOU to feel better, but will diminish the 'sadsack' mood which your presence may bring to your family.

But reality might simply be that your 'depression' is most brought on by the fact that your 'partner' is NOT one.

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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Originally Posted By: lurioosi2
I have gotten to the point after years of teaching that when my students do something they know they shouldn't do or don't do something they should do and then say "I'm sorry," I respond, "Don't be sorry. Be different." That's kind of how I feel in general. Don't be sorry. Don't feel bad. Be different. I sense you have that feeling too.


Quite the opposite. I do and don't do plenty of things I feel sorry about. I know I should be different. But I don't choose to be. That is my bad regardless of whether Mrs. Hold is also doing or not doing things she regrets. Or maybe doesn't regret.

Quote:
My brother has horrible asthma and allergies, and he did well with our daschund. And daschunds are sweet and lovey dovey. I still miss Muffin.


Yes, we will clearly need to get a poodle or hairless or some form of "doodle" that is not very allergenic. I had a poodle mix as a kid. She was great. I still have her ashes in my basement (our parents wouldn't let us bury her in the back yard). Poodles tend to be smart and high strung so I like a mix with something a little more - hmmmm, how to say this without a massive canine DJ - relaxed and incurious.


It is NOT uncommon for our INNER selves to understand more about the situation than our CONSCIOUS selves. Perhaps... your 'choosing' to do things which you know are not the best for your relationship, is merely your inner self's attempt at sabotaging the relationship to the point that it ends. I believe that was what I was doing towards the end. I began 'seeing' more and more of the craziness my wife brought to our relationship. Even with her 'trying' the things she had chosen to do and the way she had acted were not explained. I began seeing that it wasn't just the RELATIONSHIP which was the problem, it was the LIES she told me and the LIES I told myself. I just got to the point that I couldn't 'respect' the person she had chosen to be, and the few changes she was making without actually changing the LIES she was basing herself on, just weren't going to change this fact. I believe that I knew that the marriage was not based on mutual love and respect, but on half-truths and money. When I really began seeing that without my paycheck... we would never have gone on this long, I began realizing that I had been lying to myself. When that broke down... the propping of the marriage upon my shoulders crumbled. I finally felt 'strong enough' in myself, to confront the lies I had been avoiding... and she bolted for the door.

Your choices might be similar. Perhaps your conscious self 'wants' things to be better, however you subconscious self KNOWS that the basis isn't there.

I couldn't NOT get married, because I felt like the 3 years I had dated her had made not only HER, but her daughters MINE. I would have to LEAVE my family if I chose to not marry. So I bucked up and married. My conscious mind wanted to... but I remember telling myself OPENLY, that I WOULDN'T marry her until she got counseling... but I didn't follow through. My subconscious self KNEW... but my conscious self couldn't 'walk away'. That is a hard place to be in. And perhaps you need to delve into those thoughts a bit and see whether you are depressed because of the situation or more because you RECOGNIZE the dissonance between what you KNOW, WANT, and SEE.

IMO this DOG CRAP is just that... CRAP. You are looking for a 'pill' which will fix the problem. Just like people who buy a house or have a baby after an affair, thinking that "IT" will be the thing which 'fixes' everything. I understand it is for your daughter... but read your post again... you are hoping for YOU!

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CFIO:

I took various anti-depressants over a period of about 14 years. Never made the depression go away. Suffered side effects (sexual, weight gain). So I stopped the ADs. But I am in a deep hole these days, so maybe I should go back on.

You are correct that I am sabotaging in the not-so-subconscious hope that crashing will cause things to end.

You are correct that the dog is intended to be a "pill". I am happy to have the pill. I am not willing to do the work to really heal.

Last night, Mrs. Hold went berzerk about me and D13 talking about the dog. There won't be a dog until after D13 sees the allegist again in May. Mrs. Hold yelled "what about my trip? Why are you researching dogs and not researching my trip?" Remember, I promised to take her and the kids on a trip if she made her goal weight at WW. She has lost 10 - 15 pounds since then so it worked as motivation. She has only a few pounds to go, and she is very excited about the upcoming vacation.

Now of course we are fighting about cost. I never told her how much I was willing to spend (I know, stupid of me). So she is looking for 13 day tours that are hugely expensive. Everything I suggest is, as usual, viewed as a cheap pile of crap. "What, you expect me to endure the indignity of an inside cabin on the cruise ship? What kind of woman do you think I am?" I don't know what I was thinking.


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