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Bubbles4U #2430079 09/26/10 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
Yes, financial security is important. But why do women need men to be WEALTHY so they can blow all that money on junk asap?

Financial security is good for families but women can work just as well as men to help.

If a person has all they need in life, a house, clothing, food, etc why can't they be happy with that?


THIS is what I'd like to know too. I find it ridiculous that women 'expect' to be able to drive expensive cars and go on expensive vacations and have the latest and greatest of all clothes, houses and gadgets.

What ever happened to the phrase 'in sickness and in health and for richer and for poorer'? Good grief.

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I never heard women had a monopoly on luxury purchases.


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
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Here it would be my husband who has the desire to buy nice things and the expectation that one day he will have a certain standard of living. But then he's the breadwinner, I'm a SAHM (with his complete support) and he's expecting to provide those things out of his own salary.

I am very grateful to him for supporting us and yes it definitely makes deposits in my love bank that he is willing to support us financially and allow me to sah and homeschool the girls but my desired standard of living is much lower than his.


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Why do MEN need women to be wealthy? Why does anyone NEED luxury purchases.

There is stuff they really NEED
And stuff they THINK THEY NEED that THEY ONLY WANT.

We have way too much stuff to buy in the world. Too much stuff to acquire.

These greedy folks need to quit saying they NEED a spouse who will give them the FINANCIAL carte blanch amount $$$$$$ to spend on useless junk, luxury items, and things to impress the neighbors.

The idea of SHOPPING for a spouse to give us these things is beyond ludicris. It is cruel and insane.

Bubbles4U #2430121 09/26/10 11:29 AM
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Bubbles, that is YOUR opinion. It has little to do with greed and more to do with an emotional response. FS is a VALID need, and we cannot disparage it. If we feel it is unimportant and we don't want to meet that need then we must ensure that we marry a person who doesn't value it. But we cannot minimize the emotional response because we find it irrational or wrong.

ALL emotional needs are irrational. Some are just more accepted than others.

I can't help it. I have a high need for DS. Sometimes I feel guilty about the stuff my husband does to fill that need, but I cannot deny that I feel an overwhelming sense of love when he cleans the dishes. I smile and feel a sense of love and peace when my need is met. I feel my Love Bank surge past the Romantic Love threshold.

It is an emotional reaction.

If someone else feels the same feeling when they are Financially Supported, who are we to judge them? That is what they need to feel loved. It isn't greed but fulfills something deeper.

Like many needs it can become abusive. But to just say THIS is the lifestyle I would like and would make me feel loved is a simple statement of fact.

Would Hold's life be better if his wife's need for FS didn't require a lifestyle he cannot provide? Of course. I would say her need tipped over into abusive behavior when she ran up ridiculous amounts of debt. But simply having a need and wanting it met is not cruel or insane.

Your threshold for what you expect for FS is YOUR threshold. Lets not disparage those with a different threshold. What you may consider a WANT someone else may legitimately consider a NEED. It is not for YOU to determine what is too much, but for the spouses within the marriage to determine what is too much.

Hold has decided that his wife's ideal way to get FS is something he cannot or will not achieve, thus he's made peace with the fact that he will not have a romantic passionate marriage as he cannot fill her love bank.

Right or wrong, her needs exist and are valid. It seems that the need might be shifting. That would be good because then Hold might have a chance of filling it if he so desires.


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Vibrissa #2430123 09/26/10 11:42 AM
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If someone else feels the same feeling when they are Financially Supported, who are we to judge them? That is what they need to feel loved. It isn't greed but fulfills something deeper.

Financially supported is one thing, but having thousands and hundreds of thousands of disposable income to blow on junk is quite another. It becomes a moral choice.

"Someone" might feel the need to beat a child. Does that mean it is a valid need for them? And does that mean they have to search out a situation where they can carry out that need?

Other "needs" could be to fill a house with junk, like on the "Hoarders". Sure, they have a NEED to do this and they FEEL like they want to fill up thier homes with junk. Does this mean that that need is valid for them and should be honored?


Last edited by Bubbles4U; 09/26/10 11:44 AM.
Bubbles4U #2430135 09/26/10 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Other "needs" could be to fill a house with junk, like on the "Hoarders". Sure, they have a NEED to do this and they FEEL like they want to fill up thier homes with junk. Does this mean that that need is valid for them and should be honored?


If you want to be married to them and have a passionate romantic marriage, then yes.

A radio show from a few months ago, DR. Harley was talking about avoiding jealousy in our spouses. He said that we should make our spouses feel safe and if they feel jealous STOP doing whatever triggers that emotion. He then used the extreme example of a paranoid person, who's jealousy is raised through what you and I would consider innocent interactions. What should the spouse of such a person do?

Avoid making their spouse jealous, even though the paranoia is restricting and seems unfounded. If you want a happy marriage, you avoid hurting your spouse. FULL STOP.

Now you may decide that you cannot meet the need to the level the paranoid person wants.

That is fine.

You are free to set your boundaries. But you will not have a happy, passionate marriage with such a person if you cannot fulfill that need.

This isn't a judgement on any party. This is pure fact.

Someone has a need. You can't meet it and you can't successfully negotiate it with POJA, you're not going to have a happy marriage.

Does that make one spouse bad or wrong.

No.

It just is.

Now you may decide to not stay in such a situation. That is completely your choice.

Hold has decided to stay, knowing he cannot have a happy marriage under these conditions.

And as for beating a child that isn't a EN in the MB sense, because it is not a need that will build love and make love unit deposits.

When you encounter a potential mate with needs that you cannot meet, or your spouse develops them during your marriage (see Linus' thread in SAA) then you must decide "Will I continue to live in this situation?" Then you control only what you can: YOURSELF and either stay or go.

The fact of the matter is you cannot change another person, not only is it a DJ it is a futile process. One that only brings pain and misery as you are condemned to fail.

All you can do is determine: Can I meet my spouse's need, if not can we negotiate a middle ground, if not, can I live in a loveless marriage?

Judging your spouse (and that is what you are doing) doesn't solve or fix ANYTHING, it may make you feel better temporarily, but that is fleeting and the judgement actually compounds the problem.


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Vibrissa #2430312 09/27/10 08:40 AM
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Bubbles, you know I love you. Thanks for the support. Still, listen to Vibrissa. She is correct.

As you well know Bubbles, having suffered with me all these years, no one raged against the unfairness of a spouse's "excessive" need more than I have. And what did that get me? Misery.

Now I have finally accepted that my wife's need is valid, even if I cannot satisfy it. Just as my need for sex was valid, even though Mrs. Hold could not satisfy it. Neither of us is getting what we need. Yet both of us are more content than we were back when we were vainly striving to get the need fulfilled. Wierd, huh?


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I really don't want to get OT. If I am then say so.

Two questions related to ENs.

One, is it because other ENs are being met that the primary needs have abated to the level of contentment for you? If so, what are the other ENs being met?

Or is it that the ENs that are contented were not really as a high priority as believed and were used as straw-men to control each other, knowing the other person would have a really tough time meeting those needs.

Where does the desire for fulfillment of ENs turn into LBs?

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Originally Posted By: clark_kent
Where does the desire for fulfillment of ENs turn into LBs?


When the only acceptable method for fulfilling that need requires or results in the pain of your spouse.

MB is an intertwined program that works when all elements in place, this is why it is tricky and difficult at the beginning. It's like watching a quickly turning merry go round and trying to time the best way to get on, at some point you just gotta jump on and hope you don't fall off.

Ideally two spouses care about one another and the thought of hurting each other seems unfathomable, and thus the actions that one spouse requires of the other will not put them in pain or hurt them in any way. There is a little bit of the Giver involved where each spouse does their best and the other cuts a bit of slack until positive, need filling habits are established.

Good example is my husband's need for Affection. He likes cuddles and hugs. Me, I have an aversion to touch that was VERY strong when we first married. I would try and try to snuggle and I'd get anxious and ansy and start poking and tickling him. It drove him crazy and me trying to snuggle drove me crazy.

Now he could have used LBs to get me to lay still and meet his needs: SDs (Just lay quietly for crying out loud!), AOs (YOU NEVER GIVE ME ANY AFFECTION!) and DJs (What kind of woman are you? All women like to cuddle!). At that point, his need would have become an LB.

But since we were in love and had our Givers at the table, I would snuggle him as often as I could for as long as I could stand it and he'd lay with me and enjoy what little I could give at the time, and over time I've become more accustomed to it and am now able to provide the amount of affection he needs, because I've built the habit.

Now if you have two spouses in conflict or withdrawal it will be more difficult to create the atmosphere necessary for a successful negotiation. This is why the first step is to create romantic love by meeting the needs you CAN meet, in order to create the love necessary to negotiate the needs that are more difficult to meet and require negotiation.

Ideally you can meet other needs and table the one that is an issue and still achieve the Romantic Love threshold at which point a safe negotiation guided by the Policy of Joint Agreement is more likely to be successful - because you are working with two people in love and so they DESIRE to meet one another's needs and are ADVERSE to hurting the one they love.

Like the merry-go round, it's easiest for both spouses to get on at the start of the ride, before things start moving. Similarly it is easiest to implement MB early in a marriage when both spouses are riding the high of their first love. It is possible to do it later, but like jumping on the merry-go round spinning ever faster - it is scarier and you stand a good chance of getting knocked on your behind a few times before you actually make it on, and then once you're there you gotta stick out your hand and try to get your spouse on as well.


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Logical:

Do not base your marriage on mine, or try to understand what has happened to us. It likely won't provide useful information for improving your marriage, or anyone else's. A quick one line summery: we have both given up on gettng our needs met, and have accepted that being "nice" to each other is the most we can hope for. Do not aim for what we have settled for.

Instead, work the MB system in its entirety. Spend liots of UA time together. Avoid LBs. Meet your spouse's ENs. And hopefully you will get to the place where you are both deeply and romantically in love.


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"being "nice" to each other is the most we can hope for."

Thats a little understated Hold. Your wife has made major progress in many areas of her life. That includes a big change in what she wants from your relationship.
Can I ask what Mrs Hold thinks of MBs? Im guessing she does not post here.

Jackblack #2434161 10/12/10 08:48 AM
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Big fight the last few days over insurance. Mrs. Hold gets everything when I die (401k, biggest insurance policy, etc). I am changing smaller life policy, and decided to put it in trust rather than having her be the beneficiary outright. I told myself years ago I would not give her control to where she could spend everything and ruin us again.

I told Mrs. Hold of my plan. She exploded. She thinks she is entitled to everything. I explained how her past overspending worries me, and that I wanted to know that the kids' college was paid for no matter what she did with the rest of the money. I thought she had grudgingly accepted my position (I know, as a good MBer I should push to where she is enthusiastic, but there is not going to be mutual enthusiasm here and we only have until Friday to get the insurance before I become older and the policy becomes more expensive).

Then she apparently discussed this with her father, who got her all worked up again. I remained calm during our next discussion, but I am royally pissed. When I discovered her huge overspending, I asked for his help in talking to her about her spending and lying about it. He told me to leave him out of it and handle it myself. So now I am handling it, and he wants to criticize my choices? He can take his views and shove them.

Also, I doubt Mrs. Hold has explained all the facts to him. Her continued overspending after I discovered the first big problem. Her opening new accounts after she agreed to give up her cards. Her forging my name on checks to pay off the cards she wasn't supposed to have. Her continued overspending whenever we "test the waters" in later years. And her complete lack of remorse over any of this (last night she tried to justify her spending saying "it wasn't a waste, I spent it on our house and the kids"). I expect that if she told him the whole story, he wouldn't be complaining that I am holding back 1 account. He would be suggesting I lock up everything else to protect her from herself. I think his intentions are good (protect my daughter), but his suggested soluition is way off target.

Ayway, just venting because I am getting huge flak and I wuld like to POJA a solution but I can't see that Mrs. Hold is interested in any restrictions on her access to money. We discussed having a bank be the trustee, but she was opposed to that as well. She wants it all for herself, and that is something I am simply unwilling to do, no matter how much she dislikes it.

She said it is bad that I don't trust her. I agreed. But I am not being irrational. She has shown herself to be untrustworthy. And she shows no remorse. So she is getting what she signed up for. As am I.

A big part of me wishes I had not told her about the new policy. If I had never heard of MB, I might have just gone ahead and done it.


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Given her history with money I don't think you even needed to share your choice with her. Had Mrs. H not continued to over spend and lie to you after the initial discovery then perhaps she would have earned your trust when it comes to money, but that's not the case.

You want to protect your children, so should she. If she can't see this choice as a way to do that she is truly being selfish and greedy.

Make the change and don't bother to discuss it further. If she can take out a life insurance policy on you and make herself beneficiary that's her choice. Ask the father if he will take her back. ;-)


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nams #2434252 10/12/10 01:48 PM
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She is terrible. Have you told her parents EVERYTHING about how she ruined you, how you had to move, get a new job, etc? She is a real piece of work.

Bubbles4U #2434299 10/12/10 03:22 PM
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Tell your wife as soon as she pays back all that money she stole (112K) that you will give her EVERYTHING if you die.

1. She does not care about the kids college
2. She cares very little for you, but she would like it if you died and left her the money.
3. She loves money, what it can buy, and how she thinks it can impress other people.

There is NO HARM leaving it in a trust. There is only GOOD in this given what your wife will do with it. If you died, she would have this money gone in less than 6 months.

She has learned nothing.
oleofneouysi

Bubbles4U #2434311 10/12/10 04:02 PM
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The thing that gets me about this is her complete lack of remorse. When we discussed the overspending, she objected to me describing it as wasteful. She said it was not a waste because she spent it on the house and the kids. I told her it was more than we had budgeted, and that she lied to me about it when I asked, so must have known it was not appropriate.

She said she simply could not bear to live the way we lived then, or live now, and so she felt compelled to spend whatever it took to create an appropriate home for herself and our children. She said that poor people live better than we do. I told her that I am also disappointed in our lifestyle, it is not what I expected it to be when I graduated law schiool, but that does not justify going deeper into debt trying to create a lifestyle we cannot afford.

I suggested that if she is not satisfied with our house in the suburbs on almost 2 acres, and her car, and the spending money I give her every week, then she should leave and find someone else who can support her in the style to which she wants to become accustomed. Not that I want her to, but if she truly finds our house and lifestyle unbearable, then I will understand if she needs to make a change. If she chooses to stay, however, I cannot tolerate spending in excess of our income. Moreover, to the extent that she feels "it is for the house or the kids" justifies unlimited spending, that reinforces my fear that she might justify enormous spending after my death - which makes me even more determined to carve out one piece beyond her reach for the kids' education.

I am simply astonished that she would try to justify her overspending. I can understand explaining why it happened. How she felt at the time. But not asserting that it was OK and I should stop viewing it as excessive or inappropriate. It is one thing to expect that after all this time I wuold forgive her. But it is another to assert that I don't need to forgive her because she didn't do anything wrong!


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What is really sad is that your wife, with her accounting backround, does not realize this truth:

THAT SHE IS THE CAUSE OF YOU HAVING TO LIVE AS IF YOU WERE POOR! SHE PUT YOU IN THE POORHOUSE! SHE COULD HAVE HELPED YOU TWO BECOME WEALTHY BUT INSTEAD HER HUNGER TO SPEND MONEY ON JUNK THAT DOES NOT LAST LED HER TO STEAL YOUR FUNDS, YOUR SAVINGS, AND RUN UP CREDIT CARDS PUTTING YOU IN THE SITUATION YOU ARE IN.

HOW CAN SHE BE SO DENSE? DO YOU NEED TO WRITE IT OUT FOR HER ON A LARGE PIECE OF PAPER:

1. Here is where we would be financially had you NOT SPENT THAT MONEY. Here is what we would have to spend now. 112K invested well....would AT LEAST double in 7 years. By NOT paying credit card interest, this could save you thousands also. And by her saving money, you could have had 3/4 of a million dollars easily by now. If she would have worked full time for the last 10 years and not had a housekeeper, this could have generated another 400K. Geeze!!!!! How come I see it and I am not even part of your family!!!!!!!But she is BLIND to this!!!

2. Here is where we are NOW BECAUSE YOU BLEW, and continue to blow... OUR MONEY!!!!

112K--LOST
80K --INTEREST ON CREDIT CARDS-LOST!
300K -Moving to new area, loss on equity in other home-LOST!
250K- 10 years of her overspending continually- MONEY LOST!!!! FOREVER
40K- MORE CREDIT CARD INTEREST DUE TO HER- LOST!!!!
100K - Repairs on your home and loss of equity- LOST!!!!
500K- Your ability to make partner due to her lack of support,her theft, and your need to move due to her overspending! LOST!!!
380K- The loss of investment income in 12 years building on the 112K she blew! LOST!
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TOTAL $$$$$$$ THAT HAS BEEN FINANCIALLY LOST BECAUSE OF BEING MARRIED TO HER= $1,762,000.000!!!! LOST!!!
LOST!!!!!!


BECAUSE OF HER FINANCIAL AND EMOTIONAL IGNORANCE!!!!


-I would illustrate it to her with large signs hung up around the house. Make it clear to her. She does not realize that SHE IS THE CAUSE of her own "POORHOUSE" idea! If she is in the POORHOUSE< it is ALL BECAUSE OF HER SPENDING!!!

You two lost the ability to become wealthy in the earning years. BECAUSE OF HER!!!!

But as bad as this two million dollar loss is financially, the emotional loss to you due to her abuse and disrespect is....well.....PRICELESS!!!!

( I forgot to add in the loss of the 400K she would have made all these years working at a job to help the family....this is just what you could have made with her as a SAHM. Who did NOT overspend.)

Last edited by Bubbles4U; 10/12/10 05:37 PM.
Bubbles4U #2434334 10/12/10 05:26 PM
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She needs to know that you could have become multi-millionaires now if she had not "mismanaged" your money from day one.

Bubbles4U #2434340 10/12/10 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
She needs to know that you could have become multi-millionaires now if she had not "mismanaged" your money from day one.


Maybe he should scream and stamp his feet too.
We've all said he should stand up for himself. But he has resigned himself not to. So he gets to sleep in the bed that he made.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

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