I'm still letting myself get rejected Hold. I lay in bed for 30 min. and finally got up and went down to the couch again to read until I could fall asleep. The cycle just repeats itself once again. Of course she woke up and asked where I was going and said I could turn the light on and read while she slept. WTF??? She knew exactly what was goint on and this morning she wouldn't even look at me.

I have the same thoughts Hold. I wonder if by the time the kids are out, am I going to repress my libido for so long that it will vanish and all I'll have is resentment and will not even care to get out of the M, because I really don't care to have SF at that point with anyone from how repulsive I feel about myself in the SF department.

Face it, some women are like this, just like some men will be repeat cheaters or they'll do their own thing forever without thought to their Ws after their W tried and tried and eventually walked out on them.

We spent time in bed each night and morning, because my Sis and BIL have a typical NYC apartment and there was no place else to be while the kids were sleeping in the only other 2 rooms than to be together in the master bedroom.

She made it very clear by rolling away from me, placing pillows between us, and other actions that she was not interested in sex despite the very enjoyable weekend. NYE was very cold and we spent 2 hours outside. We all came back freezing. Mrs. Hold made it clear we were not going to "snuggle for warmth".

In the past, I might have "asked" by rolling toward her, placing my arm over her shoulder while lying next to her, etc. Maybe my hand would "wander". Sometimes I would even summon the courage to verbally ask if she was in the mood (although I know most women find that terribly unattractive, Mrs. Hold has made clear that she prefers an "ask" rather than a "take subject to dispossession"). My actions would give her the chance to move my hand where she wanted it.

I don't do that any longer. Mostly I face away from her. If I face toward her, my hands usually stay on my side of the wall of pillows, comforters, etc. If she moves toward me, my hand may go over her shoulder but it no longer wanders.

Her rejections are subtle. But very real. Close to 2 decades of honing the "radar" to determine whether there is any chance that an "ask" might get a yes have taught me to detect the unmistakable sign that asking would be futile. To me, her displaying those signs is rejection. She knows how I react when we spend pleasant time together. She knows how much I want her. She doesn't have to say the word "no" to communicate her message quite clearly.

Seems to me, Hold, that MrsHold meets your EN for Resentment really well...

she works really hard to prove all your assumptions true so you can continue to be right instead of happily married.

She's tenacious, unstoppable, in communicating her rejection to you without words...yours or hers...a rejection artist.

You are so good with words, Hold, probably because you fear hers so much...and she asked for your words, to hear your stuff...and you don't do that because that's where you've been shot down, tormented and denied for years...

and what you fear isn't real in the way that you experience rejection, without words, anyway.

You've perfected your Catch-22, Hold. It's amazing...you are an exceedingly accomplished rejection artist.

And MrsHold holds that mirror for you. She works really hard to ensure you will only see her rejection to protect yourself.

She's very much your ally and accomplice in rejection.

You've mentioned her adroit use of bedclothes to keep and ensure distance...I haven't asked before...does she do this on both sides of herself and at her head, too, like a sleeping nest? Or only delineating your space from hers, period...wide open at the feet, her side of the bed and the head of the bed?

LA

Hold, I've had a hard time pinpointing what bothers me most about your situation, and I think it's that you don't seem to care about your own mental health. I mean...I get why you feel the need to stay for another 6 years. What I don't get is why you lean towards passive aggressiveness versus O&H. I mean...even if being O&H doesn't improve your marriage, at least you'd be true to yourself and in a better, more 'pure' state of mind when the time comes to decide, 6 years from now.

Choosing to be passive aggressive for the next 6 years makes it seem as though you have already decided that you're mental health is dispensable, disposable, and of little consequence - that your personal integrity is of little matter. It seems like you've already chosen to sabotage your chances of being healthy enough to move on.

Hi Mud,

Let me tell you there were many nights I would approach my H for sex and he would "not want it" and I would STOMP out of the bedroom to sleep in the guest room and cry.

It was about a year at that stage. The stage when I did not know what to do "after that" to find the solution. There is a solution beyond that point. I am here to tell you about it. But only if she loves you enough to help find it.

What turned the corner for us is when I made a Dr appt with our Dr to see what was up with my husband/s libido. I never felt such hatred toward me for doing that. He told me to never never never ever do that again. The Dr was going to prescribe Viagra, other than that my H was fine. He does have high cholesterol though now.

Then the other turning point was me telling H I was stymied to find a solution and could not live like this anymore. I told him to take a couple days, and think about the problem of lack of sex....with me and come up with a good solution to save our marriage and make us both happy.

The next morning he came to me and told me the solution.

This is sort of how he worded it, " I think this will work. Whenever you want sex, ask me, and I will provide it. Every day if you want it. " I asked, "What about if you do not want sex when I ask?"

He says, "If I dont want sex when you ask, I will provide it for you">

I asked, "You mean if I asked you for sex every day, you could come thru for me?"

He said, "YES">

(You have to know that I accept great hand action and sex toy pleasure as sex so that we have flexibility, as long as I get the big O I am fine)

Then, I tested him out for two weeks asking almost every day. (in a nice cute way of course)

He did what he promised. Every time.

I learned to ask and he learned to give.

We worked it out. You can too. Ask your wife what she would suggest to save your marriage and so the marriage does not become sexless.

Bubbles,

Thanks, we've tried just that. We also tried:

If I wear one of these two night gowns. I got excited a couple of days later when she came out of her closet wearing it. Shot down. "I can wear whatever I want and it shouldn't mean a thing."

If I shut the door (we do this maybe 4 nights out the week any way, but what the hell). Shot down the next night. "I shut the door so the light will not bother ds when he's trying to sleep."

If I come to bed naked (only happened 3 nights in the heat of the summer) 3rd night got shot down. "We did it the last two nights." Now she's back to pjs.

THE BIG ONE: "Ask me and I will never refuse again." Bubbles, I got shot down the very first time, got the courage to ask again, shot down. Lol and behold, got the courage to ask again, shot down. The 3rd time I flipped out, she appologized and said yes she was confusing in the past and is still giving me mixed words and actions.

Reading Loving's post woke me up a little. I don't want this resentment people, that's why I came here in the first place. That last THE BIG ONE, was just in the last 3 months, and hurt very bad. She knows I'm vulnerable and yet she does that. It is even more painful than when she went wayward. It's been roughly 8 years and the pain now seems more painful than then, I think mostly because I figured "it happens" and she still wanted the M and so did I. Just the length of time this has gone on has worn me down. Yet again today, I got hit on by an attractive woman- no thankyou!!! I'll deal with it another way. Atleast I've got my looks going for me.

MUD, you are getting so close to the solution! I can tell you from experiance.

(I did not know this witch of yours went wayward, man that is bad, she has sex with others but not you, that is creepy)

Ride it out, the conflict now. Make her put in writing that if you ask for sex in any way she will provide it with hand, mouth, or otherwise.

Accept a hand job when she does not want the whole thing. Teach her how to please you with hands and mouth so she has a "choice".

The little witch probably used hands, mouth and other things on her other lover. I dislike these cheaters so much.

She has done the hand, mouth etc. She's not averse to that. It's the trouble to do it, I think, that gets to her. Mel had said she might love me, but not in love with me. I know what she means, and honestly if how much I've put in she still feels that way she can find someone who she will be in love with. She knows how much I've changed for our M, and acknowledges the pain she's caused, but she is so so reactionary. We'll SF and then she slides b/c she thinks I should be happy for x amount of days or something. I appreciate the effort, but I want my confidence back. Truly if I had what I had for the first 5 years of our M confidence wise, I could handle rejection again, but not at this point.

The writing it down is a fantastic idea and we did it, she scribbled fast and furious and in anger. She said, "Do you want me to write it down?" I called her bluff and said yes. She wigged out and scribbled in huge writing. I threw it away b/c she was so angry when she did it and I felt bad for calling her bluff. I think if we sat down and we talked and wrote it down in love, I could accept it. The only problem is now I'll have back up and she will hate it with the demons of hell if I pulled it out, so I'll ponder that some more thanks.

Yeah, it was tough and very odd. I don't have that puking feeling anymore when I think about it. Vomit would just come, never had such weird feelings before and worked very very hard at putting it out of my head, so don't make me vomit with the, "she probably did it with other men." It was one OM, and it torments her if those years are brought up, and she has never disclosed. I'm ok, just want a great M, not an average normal one. I don't strive for normal.

In one of the other threads about relationship books, I mentioned a book I found at a beach house that we rented in 2008. The author and her husband had rented it not long before, and she had left several copies of her book, "The 10-Minute Sexual Solution" there. I was skeptical, but curious, of such a short book, but it was buy a clinical psychologist who specializes in sexual problems, more than just marriage. It was actually pretty good, a lot like MB: cut through and skip past all the causation, and get to solving the problems by taking a set of steps in a new direction.

I posted this in the Low SF Desire thread, too, since TheMud and HOTI are posting both places.

How did you know? The covers are all toward me. Generally part of her body remains uncovered (which part varies). No covers on the side toward the edge of the bed. Pillows piled high toward me. Low toward the edge of the bed.

For years she said this was about my breath. I used every technique I could find to deal with this. Brush teeth, tongue and roof of mouth. Floss. Mouthwash (tried many kinds, herbal as well as commerical). Chew gum all day. For several years I avoided any food that contained onions or garlic or scallions or cruciferous vegetables for fear it would taint my breath. Even when the smell was not bad she would complain about the volume of air I expel (I am a mouth breather). We have a ceiling fan that is on every night so she can feel the breeze but she cannot tolerate the feel of my breath on her skin. I sleep with silicone inserts in my nostrils to control snoring. They help reduce the volume of air problem because I breath more through my nostrils and less through my mouth. Still, the pillows are piled up toward me.

Despite my voluminous posting, I no longer come here and document each and every episode of rejection. I mentioned last weekend's rejection only in the context of justifying my conclusion that frequent requests on my part would be met with frequent rejection. The evidence for that is overwhelming, and not only in the distant past but recently as well.

She is generally OK if I move my head toward her thigh while facing the tv so she knows that there is nothing sexual intended and I am just looking for Affection. But if my hand moves toward her from my side of the bed it frequently gets swatted away before I can get near her, even if it is aimed at a non-erogonous zone. Except her elbow. She has a very pointed bony elbow. Unlike the rest of her body which is soft and round and volunptuous. We have a standing joke when she wears a short sleeved nightie that she is flaunting her incredible elbows. And I make a big deal of finding them irresistible - unlike all those soft fleshy parts elsewhere. She is usually pretty good about allowing me to briefly fondle her elbow and verbally sing its praises.


You describe how I feel perfectly. I have given up on ever being mentally healthy.

I feel like my life is already over and I am just waiting for it to end. Trying to keep my job until the kids graduate college and can live their own lives. I am not preparing myself for the next relationship because I do not expect to have a next relationship. What would be the point? I don't want to have more kids. I will never marry again because I am terrified of the prospect that even if I somehow magically found a woman willing to have sex with me, the sex would stop as soon as I said "I do". What exactly is there to move on TO? The only point of leaving Mrs. Hold is so I don't have to look into the face of the person who rejected me all those years. But we all know that is not a real solution. Because I will still be looking at that face. Every time I look in the mirror.

Thjere is no point in trying to convince me not to be eeyore. I am determined to remain eeyore. I am sorry I responded to jayne with more than "thanks".

thanks!

In the vein of LAs frequent suggestion that I be open to change in Mrs. Hold:

Both D12 and S15 will need oral surgery in the coming few years. Both have impacted wisdom teeth that will need to come out. Upon Mrs. Hold hearing this news, she called me to discuss how we would pay for these procedures and whether finances would affect the timing. I repeat: she called me BEFORE scheduling the procedures or giving consent to the dentists to do the work.

As it happens, we will need to review the procedures with our medical insurer and then decide whether to handle the cost through dental insurance or by increasing our flexible spending account. In any event, the procedures cannot be done before July when our firm's "health year" starts. Which means that the preliminary visits for x-rays etc should not be done before May or June (so the teeth don't move before the procedure).

Mrs. Hold was very pleased with herself that she called me. She said something like "see, I am learning. I did not go ahead and book the appointments for whenever was most convenient for me and leave you the task of paying the bills with no notice they were coming."

So I wanted to give her kudos for changing. Perhaps I too can change. But please do not leave posts encouraging me to do so. That will just get my contrary nature perked up to oppose change. Let us leave this as congratulations to Mrs. Hold.

Congratulations to Mrs. Hold!!!!

<and... that's it. Full Stop. Crickets chirping. lol>

(p.s. - Boy, I'm so talkative, even saying that I'm not gonna say anything more takes about 4 sentence fragments and a p.s.!)

(psssst....Jayne.)

quit while you're ahead.

lol

Sorry hold! I really did mean the congratulations.

Congrats to Mrs. Hold.

Impacted teeth...

(I can remember getting mine and husband's done under my dental insurance, and the big deciding factor at that time for some reason, was that if they had to cut into the gum it was covered because it was considered surgery versus mere extraction.)

Owie, poor kids. And congrats to Mrs Hold for learning to do the right thing. I think she has been listening to you a little bit Hold.

Last night Mrs. Hold said I smelled nice. I tried a new brand of antiperspirant this week because it was on sale. Guess this will be my brand as long as they keep selling it.

Oh, and she joined Weight Watchers. She has gained a few pounds recently, and she is accumulating the minor aches and pains that are an understandable by-product of going to the gym 6 or 7 days a week. Since she cannot reasonably increase her exercise level, she'll have to work on her food intake. Hence the Weight Watchers. Please send positive mental vibrations her way. In any event, she is down 40 pounds from this time last year. Which I think is an incredible accomplishment.

Hey Hold, congrats to the Mrs.

I also have an issue with aches and pains associated with exercise. The older I get, the worse they get! I'm now in the habit of popping Tylenol or an Ibuprofen before I go to the gym and sometimes again before I go to bed so I don't wake up in the middle of the night with my joints on fire. I am afraid to go to the doc to ask, but I wouldn't be surprised if this 52 year old body, even though it's in really good shape--is experiencing some arthritis. So I sympathize with Mrs. Hold. Her aches and pains might not even be weight related but age related. That probably won't make her feel any better either....doesn't do much for me!

My H only wears unscented anti-persperant but I never complained about his smell. In fact, he's always smelled great to me---just him...without the aid of anything. Although I'll let you in in a little secret. Victoria's Secret has this after shave balm for men and the I love, love, love, LOVE the scent...as do most of my female friends who have purchased it for their husbands.

It sounds like she's really trying to improve, which is good. I hope she keeps it up.

And like the others I'll leave it at that.

I also should be getting back on WW (I do online). I had lost a total of about 45 pounds from my top weight over the last couple of years, and 25 down from before my knee surgery Feb '08. Over the holidays, I've put 13 back on. I think I'll follow Mrs. Hold's example, and it just so happens that my start day on WW has always been Friday. I had junk for breakfast, so that's not great, but I'll log my points and get going again anyway!