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Nice weekend. Services Friday and Sunday and bingo at the synagogue Saturday night. Mrs. Hold said "they like you there". I asked how she could tell. She said "body language and facial expression when they are near you". I thanked her for sharing since I am not confident in my "reads" of people.

I called several guys to help with a "men club" project next weekend. I was proud of myself for stepping out of my comfort zone to make the "ask" of guys I am not close to.

I had a chart with Mrs. Hold and am trying to feel good about some good things happening at work. Trying to fight my depression pessimism and negativity.

Sunday night we heard a radio advertisement about "adult" gifts. I told her it hurt me to hear the ad since that stuff is not part of our life. I said my head is messed up and I am not prepared to deal with our sex life but it hurts that it is unsatisfying. She got angry and said "but I tried so hard to make the last time good for you". I replied "yes, it was. I liked how you stroked me all over my body. I liked the way you were caring and not cruel about my performance. But I feel we still have issues to resolve." We sat in silence the rest of the car ride.

This morning I did some more drive by honesty: "it hurts me that after all these years you seem prepared to deal with the sex issue now, and I am no longer able to do so." Then walked away.

I am angry with myself for being such a mess and not able to get out of my own way. But I am trying not to let it get me even more depressed.


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MRS HOLD RUINED your sex life, being cruel about performance for years took your balls off, she is a heinous human being the most heinouse, to ruin your emotions and sexuakte abilities like that. Can you see that she is the cause of your difficulties in bed? Had she been encouraging loving and fun all these years and also a willing happy lover, you would now have a wonderful sex life. She ruined your sexuality totally, I deeply dislike her for it,

1. She ruined your financial life
2. She ruined your sexuality
3. She ruined your emotions
4. She ruined your trust in women
5. She ruined your entire life

What a creep she seems to be to me. she should be put in prison for what she did to you.

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She is not heinous. She is a complex beautiful and flawed person, as are we all. She has had a traumatic past which makes it difficult for her to relate to me in the way I desire. That doesn't make her heinous. Just makes her human.

In a way, she and I already are in prison. What she and I need is to be released.


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I don't believe your wife is flawed or heinous, Hold.

I think she's acted despicably, as have I. And I'm still loved. So is she.

And she stopped acting in heinous ways.

I believe we are not flawed because our very weaknesses serve us, as do our strengths...and each other. Again, nothing to an extreme...

Guess that negates my belief, eh? When we choose an extreme perspective or perception, then that's our flaw?

Not a condition...a choice.

I wonder when you'll release yourself from creating and maintaining your self-hatred...

what would that take, Hold? What would you need to think, believe or feel in order to stop doing yourself and others harm?

When I asked myself that question...I had to figure out my boundary through deductive reasoning...

Belief: Good people do not do harm.
Belief: Humans do harm.
Therefore: Good people are not human.

Wasn't really working for me...and after breaking it down, I could see why.

Belief: I was a bad person, hence, I did harm.

Least I was human.

smile

What's yours, Hold? What's your purpose on this earth? What were you made to do?

To self-hate? To feel and act from hate? Does your self-image appear to be self-hating to others? Strangers? Acquaintances? your children? Your spouse?

What was your traumatic past which makes it difficult for you to love yourself in the way you desire?

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Originally Posted By: Bubbles4U
MRS HOLD RUINED your sex life, being cruel about performance for years took your balls off, she is a heinous human being the most heinouse, to ruin your emotions and sexuakte abilities like that. Can you see that she is the cause of your difficulties in bed? Had she been encouraging loving and fun all these years and also a willing happy lover, you would now have a wonderful sex life. She ruined your sexuality totally, I deeply dislike her for it,

1. She ruined your financial life
2. She ruined your sexuality
3. She ruined your emotions
4. She ruined your trust in women
5. She ruined your entire life

What a creep she seems to be to me. she should be put in prison for what she did to you.


I disagree. She may be part of those things, but Hold himself has the ultimate control of his life. He let those things happen, or did little to correct them. He continued to be in the marriage because something is more to him than those.

The flaw in the MB principles is that it requires both person to build on the marriage at the same time. And when there is no effort or progress from both, there is Plan B and D which requires the person making that decision to make changes and actions take upon for himself/herself.


-- Still JM --

Met `82, Steady May`86, Married Jul`95. D12, S9, D3. MB`ing since Apr`02 to fall back "in love."

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jm,

I disagree, he stayed because he had responsibilities. I am in the same boat as holding and I can tell you that my responsibility to raise healthy productive kids is more important. To say that he stayed because something in his M was more important than sex is shortsided. A selfish person would have left his kids and wife to find a more sexually fulfilling M, but that is not what a responsible father does.

In my situation I would have not married my wife knowing we would have gone through what we are going through. I would have found someone else and explained that sex is a priority to me in a M. I do believe my wife and I had this discussion and it wasn't an issue with her, she couldn't imagine refusing me nightly for years, then months, then to the point where I just didn't initiate. My wife and I were like rabbits. Is this normal? Maybe, but I wasn't striving for a normal M, and normal would be divorce now-a-days for selfish reasons.

IMO it's noble for a man to stay with his wife and family, atleast until the family is raised.

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Quote:
He continued to be in the marriage because something is more to him than those.


Quote:
I am in the same boat as holding and I can tell you that my responsibility to raise healthy productive kids is more important.


I don't see how these two statements disagree.

Quote:
To say that he stayed because something in his M was more important than sex is shortsided.


I don't think this is what JM said. He said he stayed in the M because something was more important, not he stayed because something in the M was more important than sex". Wow, amazing how changing the location of one phrase changes the meaning!

Quote:
A selfish person would have left his kids and wife to find a more sexually fulfilling M, but that is not what a responsible father does.


And, so, that responsible father stays in the M because his role as a father is more important to him. I think that doesn't disagree with what JM said.


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Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
I wonder when you'll release yourself from creating and maintaining your self-hatred...


I too wonder.

Quote:
What's yours, Hold? What's your purpose on this earth? What were you made to do? To self-hate?


Seems to be. I have been this way as far back as I can remember. Certainly back to kindergarten.

Quote:
Does your self-image appear to be self-hating to others? Strangers? Acquaintances? your children? Your spouse?


Interesting. Yes, it certainly does to Mrs. Hold. She sees the self-hating me. The real me. My parents? I think they try to avoid seeing it because it pains them. My kids? Not clear if they allow themselves to admit what they see. Everyone else? Probably does not occur to them that I am so self-hating but it would explain various inconsistencies if someone suggested it to them.

Quote:
What was your traumatic past which makes it difficult for you to love yourself in the way you desire?


No idea. I have been this way as far back as I am conscious. Certainly it was deeply ingrained by age 5. Whether genetics or life experience, no way for me to say. Probably a large helping of both. Genetic predisposition plus nurture in a shame-based culture.

As for the other comments, you guys are correct that this is my choice. My decision to stay married. My decision not to have firmer boundaries. My decision not to Plan B. I am getting what I signed up for.


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And your decision to self-hate, too.

Agreed.

You describe it as a condition, when it's a choice. A choice continually made, so automatic, you experience it like a condition.

And all the while...in your basement somewhere...is a book...which was written by a man, out of love and care for other humans, and himself, to help you find your way to answers, to solve your reasons for self-hating, and to love your way to thriving.

And you just won't choose to go downstairs and find it.

Makes sense. Which is why the first step in Alanon is to admit one is powerless and their life unmanageable. When you get to that point, you'll find that book in your collection...in a stack to the side, under something else, maybe. And you will change your choices, your marriage, your parenting and your life.

Because you went to the basement and read something someone wrote from love. After all, you read all these posts for these years on MB...also written from one human to another, from love. Just as you have posted to others from love and respect.

Maybe you don't self-hate as much as you choose to believe...you have accepted these hundreds of posts...written with care and consideration.

Hmmm.

LA

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LA:

I went downstairs. Found the book. Read a little. Saw some of the exercises. Which required me to remember good feelings.

And I put the book down. And walked away. I chose to lie to myself. To continue the lie. That I do not have any good feelings to remember. That this won't work for me because it assumes the presence of life experiences I never had. Which is another lie. They are few and far between. But they exist.

Perhaps some day I will choose differently. Stop lying. And do the hard, painful work to heal. Maybe some day. But not today.

Today, I will yet again wallow in self pity. And choose the comfortable familiar pain. Over the terrifying unknown of change.

Today, I will continue to lie to my children. Continue to send the strong message that their love is not enough. That the good times and good feelings we seem to share are not real.

And I will continue to lie to my wife. The multiple embedded lies. That I love her. That I don't. That she isn't enough. That she is. That her alleged deficiencies don't matter. That they do. That I am so withdrawn that she can't affect me. That she is so powerful that she can.

And I will lie to myself. That there is no cure for how I feel. Or that I am not capable of implementing the cure.

I am awash in love. And yet I tell myself that I am both unlovable and unloved. Both lies. Both my most cherished and closely held inner truths. I wonder if I will ever let go and accept that perhaps these truths I hold so dear are not self-evident. Perhaps it is finally becoming clear what I hold onto so desperately.

And you all thought it was just a bad double entendre. wink


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What if the work isn't hard or painful?

What if it's freeing, fulfilling, amazing?

The unknown is just that--unknown. We can manipulate it to seem hard, difficult, painful or leave it in truth--unknown until we get there.

I'm asking you to choose to go there. And you're saying, "No, don't want to experience the unknown."

And yet, you're good at it...you do unknown every day...because in reality, you experience it each and every day...every new day is unknown...and then you live it.

So, Marge, you're soaking in it.

Thank you for explaining about the good feelings when you read the book...because that was my experience, my DH's experience, as well as others I know and those on MB...that this wasn't a pain-filled, hardwork book...it truly was a relief, full of good feelings (after the multiple shocks from epiphanies)...

Thank you for going down those stairs. Would you consider going down and picking it up, carrying it upstairs to your nightstand...so it won't be lonely down there?

smile

Which is an alternative...you can do for others what you aren't willing to do consciously for yourself...do it for the book. The book is lonely, wants to be read, wants to communicate...I know you...you'll listen for the sake of the book.

What if your rage inside, that deep anger turned inward, is because of your severe and continuing mistreatment of yourself? Like anger of injustice?

I don't think you wallow well, btw. To me, more like you try it on like a new suit, wiggle around and take it off.

ROFLMAO on the double entendre. I can't believe you don't deeply love and appreciate your humor---self-amusement is really under-rated, IMO. Your persistence.

Thank you very much, bottom of my heart, for responding to my posts to you. I am still loving myself back from the place you have been in...because I, too, sometimes try on that suit.

(your suit doesn't suit you)

LA

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Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Thank you for explaining about the good feelings when you read the book...because that was my experience, my DH's experience, as well as others I know and those on MB...that this wasn't a pain-filled, hardwork book...it truly was a relief, full of good feelings (after the multiple shocks from epiphanies)...


I did not communicate well. I did NOT get good feelings when reading the book. Quite the opposite. The book triggered many negative feelings. That is why I put it down.

The book asked me to remember some time when I felt good feelings. And I refused to do so. I rejected the book. Lied to myself. Told myself there were no good times and no good feelings to remember. Then I walked away from the book.

If I am going to pick up the book again, I need to be willing to embrace the good times and the good memories and the good feelings. But I cannot do that. Because doing that would require me to let go of the "inner truth" that I am unloved and unlovable. Doing that would require me to admit that there have been good times and good feelings. It would require me to let the good feelings in. Past my moats and walls. And that I will not do.


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Originally Posted By: themud
jm,

I disagree, he stayed because he had responsibilities. I am in the same boat as holding and I can tell you that my responsibility to raise healthy productive kids is more important. To say that he stayed because something in his M was more important than sex is shortsided. A selfish person would have left his kids and wife to find a more sexually fulfilling M, but that is not what a responsible father does.

In my situation I would have not married my wife knowing we would have gone through what we are going through. I would have found someone else and explained that sex is a priority to me in a M. I do believe my wife and I had this discussion and it wasn't an issue with her, she couldn't imagine refusing me nightly for years, then months, then to the point where I just didn't initiate. My wife and I were like rabbits. Is this normal? Maybe, but I wasn't striving for a normal M, and normal would be divorce now-a-days for selfish reasons.

IMO it's noble for a man to stay with his wife and family, atleast until the family is raised.


Oh, believe me, I was in a very similar situation as Hold dating back, what 2002?

I've posted here almost every day, and mainly focused on the lack of sex, or unmet SF.

All I am saying is understand what MB principle is about. It takes 2 to make the marriage work. And if 1 spouse is not willing, then it is up to the other spouse to look at himself/herself and make decisions.

Making a decision, at least for me leads to seeking further knowledge. And one of the very first "a ha" moments I learned here is that "I can only change myself, and I should only change myself for the reason of wanting that change for myself" --not to change for my spouse, not to change "expecting" it will change my spouse. I can change me, and can only hope my spouse choose to change herself.

Hold has thought out and even discussed divorce with his wife. I'm sure I read some of his post on that thought.

In my case, it was around the end of 2006 when we were in IC/MC when we were discussing separation and D. By 2007, I decided / realize / believe that my marriage exist because I still choose to be in the marriage; likewise, she is choosing to be married to me. The talk of D was a waste because we both know that if the marriage dies, it leads to a D.

It was also my own struggle to put weight and value to sex. Believe me, I was at some point in the belief that sex without marriage is not a marriage. I've wandered off MB and found other sources of knowledge along the way.

Here's another fact:
A marriage can exist with sex.
A marriage can exist without sex.
Sex can happen in marriage.
Sex can happen without marriage.

My point is, sex is just ONE factor of the marriage. I thought long about my values and beliefs, and my marriage have many other values I want in my life. Sex is just ONE.

That said, I found another source from No More Mr Nice Guy (NMMNG) by Glover. One other "a ha" moment for me that took a while to accept was something like this: "I am the only person in the world who is responsible for meeting my needs."

That sounded contradictory to MB. But looking at it this way, if I can meet all my needs, then I am a whole person and do not need anyone in my life.

My Marriage is now shaped by what I put into, plus what she puts into. Likewise, my wife has her own marriage defined by what she puts into.

The NMMNG also covers a few principles that MB has touched upon. Love Buster is the same as passive-aggressive behaviors. The "no expectations" is similar to "hidden contracts."

Anyway, I think one difference in my approach from Hold is that I began to accept myself just the way I am, human, male with needs, where sex is a natural need and it is not shameful, with flaws, and worthy of love and care.

I was in some period of time where I withdraw and spiral into some depressing pit that just generates resentment. I've become more aware when my mind set goes in that thinking pattern, and instead I do things to promote positives in my life be it family, health, diet, and personal growth.

Reading Hold's posts does not seem he had changed in how he thinks of himself, a victim trapped. Hold is intelligent and can find answers, but he needs to take the risk to overcome what trepidations he has to enforce his personal boundaries so that he leads a life he wants.


-- Still JM --

Met `82, Steady May`86, Married Jul`95. D12, S9, D3. MB`ing since Apr`02 to fall back "in love."

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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
The book asked me to remember some time when I felt good feelings. And I refused to do so. I rejected the book. Lied to myself. Told myself there were no good times and no good feelings to remember. Then I walked away from the book.


I don't know what book you're referring to.

Curious tho, was there a childhood memory where you were told "bad boy" or some such which the child in you translate that you are a bad person for who you are, therefore not worthy of love, respect, care, etc?

And do you think such child would develop some coping mechanism to want to be loved and change his behavior to conform to get that love, even when that child is doing actions against his personality?

The NMMNG had one section about this, and I remember a question posed to me. You're an adult now, with the power and control of your life, what will you say to the child? Do you think that child should be explained that the his behaviors were not appropriate, and that he is worthy to be loved because he is unique and his person is a gift to the world. And that he is human like everyone that can make mistakes, and it is natural to make mistakes, and he is intelligent to learn from those mistakes. I would tell that child to live a life of his own choosing because he is ok just being himself.


-- Still JM --

Met `82, Steady May`86, Married Jul`95. D12, S9, D3. MB`ing since Apr`02 to fall back "in love."

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**edit**

Last edited by Revera; 12/09/09 08:12 AM. Reason: TOS - personal attack
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Wow, Bubbles, I'm having a hard time understanding how your words might be helpful.

Agree, disagree with holds' approach to his marriage and life but attacking the kids? I can't imagine that would motivate anyone to listen to you.

Hold appears to be an intelligent man with a very low opinion of himself, the inability to get out of his own way, and his emotional capacity to change at zero. Be that as it may, displaying tact and kindness probably wouldn't hurt you.

Your tough love approach can come of as just meanness.


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It is not the kids fault they are this way. It is due to the dysfunctional marriage. I really feel sorry for the kids. they do not deserve any of it. I especially worried about the boy. He was ready to off himself in the past.

I know I said it the wrong way. What I meant was: These kids are hurting and having problems, please get them some help and work out your marriage so the kids will feel better and not act out the tension in the home in various destructive ways.

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Bubbles:

Thank you for your concern. I know you care about me and I care about you.

My kids are actually doing great. Puberty has been very kind to D12 and although she is still slightly overweight not nearly so much as several years ago. Basically her weight has stayed the same but moved to different places and she grew a couple of inches. So a much better ratio. She is quite popular socially and beyond her school friends is part of a tight knit community on her swim team.

S15 is also doing very well. He made the freshmen soccer and basketball teams. He has friends and goes to parties. His phone and computer receive a non-stop stream of messages. Yesterday he told Mrs. Hold "I want to do well in high school so I can go to a good college and get a good job so I can afford a nice place to live when I grow up". No more talk of "I wish I never existed".

Both kids do great in school. D12 has slumped slightly from her straight A average last marking period but is still doing very well and seems motivated to work harder going forward. S15 is doing honors level 10th grade math in 9th grade, and both his Mandarin and Spanish teachers say he has a gift for languages.

Mrs. Hold and I are very blessed in our children. And so far our parenting seems to be working for them. I am NOT going to rock this boat. The least likely outcome is that I become significantly more satisfied with my life. The terrifyingly likely outcome is that it throws one or both of my kids off their current successful path.

I appreciate your supportive thoughts on my behalf. Rest assured that I am making a conscious choice here. Might not be the choice that others would make for me. But for now I am determined to remain on this course. Bashing my wife does not motivate me to take different action. It just makes me more depressed about the parts of my situation I have no intention of changing.

The area where I need motivation is around work. I once again through God's grace find myself in a position with some interesting possibilities. I need to take advantage of them. So if you are going to "yell", please don't yell at Mrs. Hold. Yell at me. Because things will be much easier for me and the kids if I succeed at work.

Thanks again for your love. Now show me some tough love and kick my butt to write the memos that need to get out today! wink


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Hold,

Write the d*mn memo's. You can probably have them done by lunch.

Set a timer if you need to (I will work on these for one hour), and then take a break.

Report back here during that break and let us know how it is going.

Don't let yourself get distracted by trying to repress feelings of excitement.

Just focus on it--let other things wait till the end of the day if you have to.

Make the memo's happen!


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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
LA:

I went downstairs. Found the book. Read a little. Saw some of the exercises. Which required me to remember good feelings.

And I put the book down. And walked away. I chose to lie to myself. To continue the lie. That I do not have any good feelings to remember. That this won't work for me because it assumes the presence of life experiences I never had. Which is another lie. They are few and far between. But they exist.

Perhaps some day I will choose differently. Stop lying. And do the hard, painful work to heal. Maybe some day. But not today.

Today, I will yet again wallow in self pity. And choose the comfortable familiar pain. Over the terrifying unknown of change.

Today, I will continue to lie to my children. Continue to send the strong message that their love is not enough. That the good times and good feelings we seem to share are not real.

And I will continue to lie to my wife. The multiple embedded lies. That I love her. That I don't. That she isn't enough. That she is. That her alleged deficiencies don't matter. That they do. That I am so withdrawn that she can't affect me. That she is so powerful that she can.

And I will lie to myself. That there is no cure for how I feel. Or that I am not capable of implementing the cure.

I am awash in love. And yet I tell myself that I am both unlovable and unloved. Both lies. Both my most cherished and closely held inner truths. I wonder if I will ever let go and accept that perhaps these truths I hold so dear are not self-evident. Perhaps it is finally becoming clear what I hold onto so desperately.

And you all thought it was just a bad double entendre. wink


Hi Hold! Merry almost Christmas/Happy Hanukkah.

This may seem like a weird comment, and indeed it may be, but...your post above reminds me of a recent novel I read on my Kindle. It was free, I may have passed by it otherwise. It was about a young woman in a town, emotionally and physically abused, thus diseased and perhaps possessed who seemed to be the crux of all the bad things happening. Shot off into the horror genre...but, point I'm trying to make...although the writing was intelligent and laced appropriately with feelings, it went too far into poetic wishy-washiness. "Suddenly, she clearly saw it all. [for the 200th time in the story] She was the beginning. She was the end. It was the same. It was so very different. She really saw. And still, she saw nothing. It had been her all along. It had never been her." Through the entire story, I was like, so make up your mind already!

smile


Consider how hard it is to change yourself and you'll understand what little chance you have in trying to change others.
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