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Rainy and dreary here. Matches my mood. Guess I should be glad it isn't snowing. This much rain would be a foot or more of snow. But snow is so much prettier.


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It is prettier - and quieter. We're also having high winds, and a very large tree came down and landed on top of my neighbor's house a few hours ago. I walked over, and they are fine, but what a mess.


Sooly

"Stop yappin and make it happen."
"The will of God will never take you where the Grace of God will not protect you."

Me 47
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Together for 28 years.
Married 21 years.
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Kudos on your single-dad week. Sounds like you really rocked it.

Gotta ask, Hold, though...

Can you ask new?

Can you be specific and ask MrsHold to have another couple over, in your entertaining desire, asking with the when, where, who, how of it planned out? "I would like...what do you think?"

About the Indian restaurant...did you end up at the expensive one? Can you choose the phrase, "I'm sorry, MrsHold...I can't go there because I would resent you for it." And offer a middle choice?

Not about what we can or not afford...the marriage cannot afford adding more resentment to the pile, from either of you.

Which you know.

More kudos on listening to her take on her own parents dynamic during stress. Nice partnering.

LA

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Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Can you ask new?

Can you be specific and ask MrsHold to have another couple over, in your entertaining desire, asking with the when, where, who, how of it planned out? "I would like...what do you think?"


Can I hold off on the DJs long enough to embark on a conversation where we try to POJA a mutually enthusiastic solution to my desire to entertain more? No, I can't. My bad. I want more entertaining. But not enough to go through another conversation with Mrs. Hold in which every suggestion is shot down as not fancy enough.

I know, huge DJ that this time will be the same as prior times. I once suggested our neighbors come over for drinks on a Sunday afternoon. The neighbor's wife said something like "did you clear it with Mrs. Hold? You know how touchy she is about having people over." So I am not imagining that Mrs. Hold is touchy about it. I know I should have POJAd having them over with Mrs. Hold before inviting the neighbors.

Which is why I find this so depressing. I don't feel comfortable POJAing this with Mrs. Hold. I don't feel comfortable inviting people over without POJAing it. So I just suffer in silence. Feeding my resentment. My choice.

At this point, my "solution" is to seek a social life without Mrs. Hold. Through the Men's Club at temple. Through temple social events. Not events at our home. Does not build our marriage. But at least it gets my EN partially satisfied.

I hate my life. But not enough to change it.


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Are you saying that you won't ask new because you dwell in "old" in your head?

What's the worst that can happen? That she does old again? Which makes you right?

I understand you meeting this need safely with Men's Club. Just doesn't really meet it, given you thought about it and wanted to entertain.

Why not link it a tad? Have a Men's Club two-hour get together at your place? Let that be the ask new idea, with specifics...see, I'm not so sure you've asked with specifics before...so that you communicate your vision to MrsHold, instead of it being open-ended asking (old)...

I'm guessing. You know I'm guessing. Seeing where your thoughts dwell, in what isn't right now, gives you the hating your life feeling. Instead of not liking what went before for what it really was. When you ask new, you add dimension to the old...with new information.

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Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
Are you saying that you won't ask new because you dwell in "old" in your head?


Yes, exactly. The old is comfortable. The new is terrifying.

The problem is not in my lack of specifics. It is in our not being able to agree on specifics that allow both of us to be enthusiastic.

In years past we tried to brainstorm ideas so we could reach a POJA that was win-win. We pretty much never succeeded. At this point, the process is excruciating. We never get to win-win. And we are both exhausted from brainstorming. I don't want to have to work that hard. There has never been enough payoff to make the effort worthwhile.

Whereas the payoff from nursing my resentment is enormous.

At this point, when we attempt to POJA, it only leaves us feeling even more resentful that the other person has such different values and is so inflexible. It does not build loving feelings. It just fuels the bitterness. I'd rather spend the time playing video games. She'd rather watch tv. When the kids are grown, we can end the charade.


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I would love to know if MrsHold's aversion to entertaining is feeling examined, rated, judged, filed.

Just another time I wanted to talk to her, on MB...as many times before. I think we have common ground, which exploring, could really help me in my marriage.

Just as you have, Hold.

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Well, I imagine that my posting here helps many women in their marriage. As in "thank the Lord I'm not married to that self-hating wet blanket".


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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Well, I imagine that my posting here helps many women in their marriage. As in "thank the Lord I'm not married to that self-hating wet blanket".


Oh I don't know Hold,
Sometimes I read and I think "I wish my DH appeared to think on our M a fifth as much as Hold thinks on his.


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Originally Posted By: lildoggie
Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Well, I imagine that my posting here helps many women in their marriage. As in "thank the Lord I'm not married to that self-hating wet blanket".


Oh I don't know Hold,
Sometimes I read and I think "I wish my DH appeared to think on our M a fifth as much as Hold thinks on his.


Ditto.

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But I bet you don't wish your H spent as much time thinking how LOUSY his marriage is. You probably want your H to spend time thinking how he could make the marriage better for you (or both of you).

It has been 5 years since I spent time wondering how I could make the marriage better for Mrs. Hold. I have spent most of my time thinking how I could balance making it worse for her, but not so much worse that she decides to leave. I wish I could STOP thinking about my marriage.

I have reviewed old posts of mine. Asking how I could make our anniversary special. Or Valentine's Day. Or how to set my expectations for a vacation so I don't put too much pressure on her (or on myself). Now I only post about how to get her to leave me alone without pushing her to leave me.

I wish I could get comfortable with leaving now. Staying under these conditions is ridiculous.


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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
Now I only post about how to get her to leave me alone without pushing her to leave me.


Gotta say a "sure" here...like inviting her to SF, spooning, complimenting her on her weight reduction, discussing DS's camps and what you'd be enthusiastic about.

These are not great measures for getting her to leave you alone, IMO. And these acts seem to me to be not to make the marriage for MrsHold...have a marriage right now different than before.

Were you asking me if how I think you've helped my own marriage? Only from the side?

smile

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Add my name to the list who often think, "Gee I wish my H cared that much... tried that hard... " etc. Many times.

You are a catch. Really.


me - 47 tired
H - 39 cool
married 2001
DS 8a think
DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy:
(Why is DS7b now a blockhead???)
(Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
And these acts seem to me to be not to make the marriage for MrsHold...have a marriage right now different than before.


Who said I was trying to have a marriage now different than before? I am trying to maintain the status quo. We remain together but unhappy. I am not trying to change the unhappy part, because I do not believe that part can be changed without changing the together part.

Quote:
Were you asking me how I think you've helped my own marriage?


Well, I cannot deny being curious. wink


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Wanna practice asking? You're a slippery one, sir.

laugh

(and I left out a word...not making the marriage better for MrsHold...is what I intended)

I said "seemed to me"...my impression...so that "who says" is answered by...

Me.

If you don't ask MrsHold if she's unhappy right now, and assume it's so...then you'll be sure to have her as a companion in your unhappiness. Still including her, arencha, Hold?

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No, I do not want to practice asking. That is what I do NOT want to practice. Asked plenty for many years. Got shot down. I try hard not to ask directly anymore.

I don't assume Mrs. Hold is unhappy overall. I am not bothered if she is. She may be happy. Perhaps truly happy. Perhaps telling herself she is happy to avoid feeling obligated to change things. Because she doesn't want to leave, either. Perhaps she is unhappy. In my view, deservedly so.

However, she feels, I am not doing things to help increase her happiness in the hopes she will reciprocate and meet my needs. There are plenty of times I "hear" her asking for more of my time and attention. I feel bad if I give in to her. I feel good if I reject her. That is a lousy way to feel.

I am the one who is unhappy. And I intend to stay this way. Which is why I am so depressed and distressed. I am making crazy choices. Knowingly. With no intention of stopping.


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I wasn't asking you to ask MrsHold in my last post. I was saying that you hadn't really asked me about how you helped my marriage.

Came at it sideways, in my perception, twice.

In general, would you say that asking is difficult now, after your experience with MrsHold, maybe work, others? Or just me, MrsHold?

You say you don't assume MrsHold is unhappy overall. You know you used those words in your previous post, not with the specifier "overall", but wrapped in the "we" statement.

For the recent choices you've made, I don't see you acting to increase her happiness in the hopes she will reciprocate. The times I mentioned, you asked...not based on her possible response. Are ya slipping?

What if those recent acts on your part added to her love bank (accidentally, of course), hence, her stating she wants to grow old with you, be there for you...not because you got her to reciprocate...because that's what she really wants? You shared honestly, she shared honestly.

I'd ask you again, if the words you use in your head to tell your story today, are the original words you've used to tell the story of yourself to yourself. When in reality, the story has changed.

As all our stories do. Our experience doesn't catch up to reality, though, until we realize the change. Not huge, not earth-shattering...nonetheless, different.

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Hold: Did you ever consider that your mental attitude could be taking a subtle but definite effect on your physical health? That you could be shaving some time off the end of your life? There have been studies that link happiness to increased health and better chances at longevity.

Don't you want to be around to be at your kids' weddings? Birth of grandchildren? Etc.

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Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
But I bet you don't wish your H spent as much time thinking how LOUSY his marriage is. You probably want your H to spend time thinking how he could make the marriage better for you (or both of you).

you could be correct in that the last time he spent a long period thinking about how miserable the M was he had an affair. Still I dont think he thinks about our M at all, and if he was thinking about it nowadays, he might have something more productive to add to the conversation when I say "How can I help make it better" than a shoulder shrug.


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Originally Posted By: LovingAnyway
In general, would you say that asking is difficult now, after your experience with MrsHold, maybe work, others? Or just me, MrsHold?


Asking is hard for me in general. In all areas.

Quote:
You say you don't assume MrsHold is unhappy overall. You know you used those words in your previous post, not with the specifier "overall", but wrapped in the "we" statement.


When I said "together and unhappy, I meant together and ME unhappy". Whether she is happy or unhappy is only of concern to the extent that she is not sufficiently unhappy to leave.

Quote:
Are ya slipping?


Yes, I do slip from time to time. Ask for something I want. Meet one of her needs. I have still not sufficiently purged my "nice guy" tendencies. Every so often I do something she enjoys. I tell myself it is just so she won't divorce me.

Quote:
What if those recent acts on your part added to her love bank (accidentally, of course), hence, her stating she wants to grow old with you, be there for you...not because you got her to reciprocate...because that's what she really wants? You shared honestly, she shared honestly.


She may well want to grow old with me. It is one of her goals in life. She may even achieve her goal.

Quote:
Our experience doesn't catch up to reality, though, until we realize the change. Not huge, not earth-shattering...nonetheless, different.


I understand that any process of improvement will be a series of slow changes. I am not willing to cooperate in that process. I want either grand gestures and huge breakthroughs or nothing. I would rather be miserable than participate in a process of slow incremental improvement. To me that process was too painful when attempted in the past, and I am not willing to endure that pain again for the chance that the outcome will be different this time. I know it might be. I am not willing to invest in seeing if it is.

I am miserable now. I was even more miserable back when I was trying for improvement. It hurts less to tell myself no improvement is possible. Hope = pain. Any time hope arises, I squash it. I will not allow myself to hope things can get better. It hurts too much when they don't.

Noticing small improvements does not help. It hurts. It creates hope. Which is pain. I know this is in my head. That I could choose a different perspective. I am married to this perspective. As I am married to my bitterness and resentment. Those marriages have been much more rewarding to me than my marriage to Mrs. Hold. They hurt. But they cause me less pain than she does. With them, I get exactly what I expect. With her, I am continually left disappointed. At this point, she cannot do enough to overcome my bitterness. I am not so cruel as to allow her to try.

I understand full well the problem here. To achieve happiness, I would have to admit the truth of how I feel. Which I refuse to do because I fear if we placed the full truth front and center where neither of us can deny it, she would choose to leave. The one choice I fear most of all. Since I cannot tolerate the chance she might leave if I told the truth, I cannot do that which is crucial to change and improvement. I know I am dooming myself. I can't bring myself to make a different choice.

Remember, part of the truth is that I have absolutely no intention of doing what it would take to meet her ENs. Become more confident / successful / attractive. Even if she does meet mine. I don't fear her leaving solely because she will refuse to meet my needs. I fear her leaving because the truth would include that I refuse to meet hers.

Which we all know is the real core truth here. I don't really fear her refusal. I fear her saying "yes I will". I fear myself. That I will fall short.

The reason I am confortable not pushing her to meet my needs is that I feel that justifies my not meeting hers. Which excuses me not even trying to do so. Which means I won't try and fail. I will choose to fail. So I can fail with much less guilt.

THAT is why I don't try to make things better. And until I am willing to change that, all talk of change on her point is irrelevant. In fact, from that perspective, change on her part to do a better job at meeting my needs is bad. Why the heck do you think I work so hard to reject any suggestion that she has changed or is getting better? I don't want her to get better. That would put pressure on me to get better myself. No, I like it exactly how it is. Each giving the other permission to fail.

Cerri did not "fire" us only because Mrs. Hold refused to change. I was just as stubborn and inflexible. I just talk a better game.


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