Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 6 of 91 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 90 91
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
Meh... I'm not paranoid by nature, but I'd at least consider that this was somewhat intentional on your W's part HOTI. I understand everyone else giving her the benefit of the doubt, but given her history of lies, and manipulation, is it really all that implausible?

Let's look at the facts, shall we?

-She knows you have poor boundary enforcement.
-She knows that you have been desperate for sex.
-She knows you are unhappy and consider divorce regularly.
-She knows that no man in his right mind, and with a capacity to support her will have her in her present state.

Considering what she did to attract you in the first place, is it too cynical to think she'd pull something like this to keep you?

I can't decide if this is a Blake Edwards bedroom farce, or a Greek tragedy.

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
 Originally Posted By: hanora
but I doubt that it was some plot on Mrs. Hold's part.


Agreed. I don't think she did it on purpose. Not even unconsciously.

On the other hand, Seabird can rest assured that even if she did, it will not increase the odds of my staying with her. If she thought I would feel "stuck" with her and thus stay longer, she is going to find out that I feel more "stuck" with her and thus more motivated to leave. If anything, this will not lead to less boundary enforcement. It will lead to more vigorous boundary enforcement.

 Quote:
Also I doubt that it would make much difference to a woman who wanted to be your next wife - not exactly what one would choose, but not a deal breaker either.


Well, it wasn't a deal breaker for me. So I must admit it is possible there is a woman out there who is as foolish as I was.

The good news for such a woman is that she won't face a difficult choice, because there isn't going to be a next wife. Whether Mrs. Hold and I part at death or before, I won't be playing this game again.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,294
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,294
 Quote:

Well, it wasn't a deal breaker for me. So I must admit it is possible there is a woman out there who is as foolish as I was.

The good news for such a woman is that she won't face a difficult choice, because there isn't going to be a next wife. Whether Mrs. Hold and I part at death or before, I won't be playing this game again.


You weren't foolish. In the end your choice turned out to be a bad one, not because your W has an STD, but because she simply was so wounded or broken that she was unable to care for you in the least.

I believe there is a woman out there who would be honored to have you for a H ... so long as she didn't allow you to continue to wallow in your own self-pity like you do so often. I'd hope she'd be one to be strong enough to bust your chops and help you get your mind right.

I'm sorry to hear you feel that marriage isn't worth it and to you its just some kind of sick game. For me it has been a long road in which I've had to do some hard work but in the end it is SOOOO worth it because there is NOTHING I cherish more than the love of my W. I wish that for you Hold.


Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
 Originally Posted By: MrAlias
I'm sorry to hear you feel that marriage isn't worth it and to you its just some kind of sick game.


To me it is not worth the risk. If a woman loves me, we can date, or live together. If she wants to get married, I would be terrified that she has an agenda that is not in my interest. There is nothing she could say or do to convince me that she isn't planning to stop meeting my ENs as soon as we get married. The more she pushed for marriage, the more I would resist.

As I have said before, the only way I would marry again is if she made it worth my while to take that risk. Through an enormous up front cash payment combined with a prenuptial that made it clear I owe nothing upon divorce.

Which is why I feel I am correct to not want to get married. For marriage to be worthwhile, both spouses have to be committed to it. They have to be invested. And I am unwilling to commit or invest that much. It doesn't matter how wonderful she is or how well we get along, I will not permit myself to ever be this vulnerable again. I am now so wounded and broken that I cannot commit to caring for anyone else. And I am not interested in being "cured" to the point where I could care that much about someone else.

So even if I got married again, I would not have both feet and my whole heart in it. As I see it, it wouldn't be fair of me to marry anyone under those conditions.

Do you disagree?


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,294
M
Member
Offline
Member
M
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,294
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit
And I am unwilling to commit or invest that much. It doesn't matter how wonderful she is or how well we get along, I will not permit myself to ever be this vulnerable again. I am now so wounded and broken that I cannot commit to caring for anyone else. And I am not interested in being "cured" to the point where I could care that much about someone else.

So even if I got married again, I would not have both feet and my whole heart in it. As I see it, it wouldn't be fair of me to marry anyone under those conditions.

Do you disagree?


I agree it wouldn't be fair.

I'm gonna hold out hope that this won't always be your mantra. I'm gonna hope that love will pervail and you will one day want to trust someone enough to be, yet again, vulnerable and toss both feet and your heart into the relationship.

It doesn't necessarily need to be a marriage but it does need to be a healthy relationship. Who knows what the future holds.

I will agree that you are now better positioned to not let history repeat itself.


Me: 57 Her: 54
M: 31 years
Kids(DS23, DD20, DS18)
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit

Which is why I feel I am correct to not want to get married. For marriage to be worthwhile, both spouses have to be committed to it. They have to be invested. And I am unwilling to commit or invest that much. It doesn't matter how wonderful she is or how well we get along, I will not permit myself to ever be this vulnerable again. I am now so wounded and broken that I cannot commit to caring for anyone else. And I am not interested in being "cured" to the point where I could care that much about someone else.


I guess the STD is redundant and irrelevant then?

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
I guess the STD is redundant and irrelevant then?


I said I don't want to get married again, I didn't say I don't want to have sex again. The STD is quite relevant to future sex.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 120
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 120
I don't know what to say. I guess you've sealed your fate with this woman.

Just when I thought she couldn't do you much more harm.

What a warm, wonderful person, that Mrs. Hold--such a giving soul.

Stephen King couldn't write a better nightmare.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit

I said I don't want to get married again, I didn't say I don't want to have sex again. The STD is quite relevant to future sex.


No offense man, but when you say stuff like this:

 Quote:

I cannot commit to caring for anyone else. And I am not interested in being "cured" to the point where I could care that much about someone else.


...it makes me hope that you don't have sex with anyone else again. At least not until you can change your attitude w/re to dealing with someone else.

Do you recognize the cyclical pattern here? How your wife's abuse led her to abusing you, and how that might lead you to abusing someone else, albeit in a different way?

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
Do you recognize the cyclical pattern here? How your wife's abuse led her to abusing you, and how that might lead you to abusing someone else, albeit in a different way?


Hmmm, well, I'm not looking to have sex with anyone at this point. And even when I am, I doubt anyone would oblige me. So I don't think you have to worry about me doing so any time soon.

On the other hand, I don't see it as necessarily abusive to have sex with someone despite not caring about them enough to marry them. I understand some people are uncomfortable with premarital sex. But I am fine with it. I didn't say I wouldn't care about someone else AT ALL. Just not enough to commit to marrying them.

I don't think I will be abusive in my next relationship (assuming there is one). Rather, I think I will be extremely gun shy about total emotional commitment. If you see it as abusive to have sex in that context, we can agree to disagree.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 120
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 120
At this point, it's hard for me to imagine you away from Mrs. Hold. If I were to bet, I'd put my money against that happening.

But if you do, (and how I wish you did long ago), may you find a healthy, happy, kind and wonderful woman. They are out there, I can tell you. My marriage was somewhat similar to yours, and after having gone through the pain, and being reborn into a relationship with a sexy, warm, generous and REASONABLE woman, the difference is like night and day.

I really hope one day you shake the curse that is MRs. Hold.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
 Originally Posted By: holdingontoit

Hmmm, well, I'm not looking to have sex with anyone at this point. And even when I am, I doubt anyone would oblige me. So I don't think you have to worry about me doing so any time soon.

On the other hand, I don't see it as necessarily abusive to have sex with someone despite not caring about them enough to marry them. I understand some people are uncomfortable with premarital sex. But I am fine with it. I didn't say I wouldn't care about someone else AT ALL. Just not enough to commit to marrying them.

I don't think I will be abusive in my next relationship (assuming there is one). Rather, I think I will be extremely gun shy about total emotional commitment. If you see it as abusive to have sex in that context, we can agree to disagree.


Think about what you're saying here HOTI. I know - you probably do think about it quite a bit. Just a figure of speech.

But... What is it you think you want then? An FB relationship? No strings attached sex? Sex with a predefined limit of emotional attachment? Is that something you can get together with a potential partner over a cup of coffee and map out ahead of time?

Or do you play it close to the vest? Not let on just how closed off and withdrawn you are? Let her assume that your feelings for her will grow?

Like your W did with you?

That's what I was getting at. The abuse I was referring to is that inherent dishonesty about where your limitations are and just what your potential partner can accept from you.

I mean really, what kind of half decent, non-enabling, non-codependent woman is going to willingly step into an involvement with you while you maintain this attitude? Anyone who will isn't going to be any better for you than your W. She might give up the hoohah a lot more, but you'll just be trading in for a whole new set of problems.

Why am I, the younger guy who barely squeaked through a city college, telling YOU this???

Know something else? I still think we're enabling you here. I think you're getting some ENs filled by this place, and it's holding you back. At some point, MB has become an addiction for you, feeding a need that you should be getting outside.

"I'm your pusher-man, baby." /Isaak Hayes

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
But... What is it you think you want then? An FB relationship? No strings attached sex? Sex with a predefined limit of emotional attachment? Is that something you can get together with a potential partner over a cup of coffee and map out ahead of time?


Yes, exactly. Friends but not life partners. No strings. If there aren't any women who want that, then I guess I will do without. I mostly did without for years and years before I got married. I can do that again. Much easier to do without while single than to do without lying next to someone every night.

I am not looking for the "brass ring". I am not looking for deep love or lifetime commitment. FB sounds very appealing at this point.

You are not the first person to suggest I should want more out of life. I am not willing to pay the price for more.

 Quote:
Or do you play it close to the vest? Not let on just how closed off and withdrawn you are? Let her assume that your feelings for her will grow?


No, I won't hide who I am and how I feel. I didn't hide myself from Mrs. Hold before we got married. I told her that I wanted lots of sex and that I have depressive tendencies and that she could expect me to under-perform my educational accomplishments. She just didn't believe me on either count.

I hide my feelings now because I want to stay with the kids. Once that is over, no reason for me to hide anything.

 Quote:
No woman who is not co-dependent will want to be with you


You are correct. No woman who is "together" is going to want me while I remain so damaged. I realize that now. You may see that as motivation to fix my damaged psyche. I just see it as reason to be on the lookout for something dark inside I haven't seen yet - because if she is willing to date me, it must be down there somewhere.

Ignoring that reality is what happened to Mrs. Hold and me. Neither of us could believe the other person was willing to "settle" for us. We were blind to the reality that something that seems "too good to be true" probably is - and to the dark secrets buried inside both of us.

In the future, I will not be blind to the likelihood that I am only seeing the tip of the iceberg. That will keep me from committing. And from knowing the joy that others report feeling from a truly intimate relationship. But it will also keep me from receiving a gash "below the waterline" that causes my ship to sink.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 429
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 429
When you talk about how you told all these things to Mrs. Hold, it reminds me of me in my early life I met men who told me, this is all I can give, I can't give any more. And I ignored it, in the hope that my caring would cause them to love me more.

Mrs. Hold probably felt the same way. Now, this is no excuse for the things she has done, but I think you need to know that if you come across as a decent guy, women will not believe that you can't or won't commit.

Its the reason that women used to go gaga for Mr. Spock. "Oh, but if he only experienced me loving him, he'd change".

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
 Originally Posted By: Happy2CU
Mrs. Hold probably felt the same way.


No, Mrs. Hold thought I was being modest as to my career abilities and "bragging" about a sex drive she didn't think I possesed given my lack of experience and generally passive nature. I don't think she believed she could "inspire" me to be different than I proclaimed to be. I think she thought I already was different than I proclaimed to be, and that she was shocked when I turned out to be exactly as I described myself.

 Quote:
Now, this is no excuse for the things she has done, but I think you need to know that if you come across as a decent guy, women will not believe that you can't or won't commit.


At this point in my life, I am not prepared to take on responsibility for what someone else believes. Under MB concepts, it is a DJ for me to assume I know what they are thinking or what motivates them. All I can do is be honest and let them choose their behavior. If a woman tells me she believes I will eventually commit to her, all I can do is communicate my feeling of how unlikely that is.

I have spent a lifetime worrying about how other people feel and how my behavior might hurt them. I have been a "nice guy". All it has gotten me is pain. If I am ever single, I am not going to take it upon myself to protect another person from themselves. I am going to ask for what I want. They are free to say no. If they say yes, it is not my responsibility to ensure they are saying yes for the "right" reason. Trying to put myself inside the other person's head is what got me into this mess in the first place.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
Do you ever recall any significant victories in your life?

And I dislike saying "hold" and "HOTI". Can I use your real first name? If not, I understand.

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
H
Member
OP Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 9,836
 Originally Posted By: Seabird
Do you ever recall any significant victories in your life?


Nope. Last "win" was getting into law school. And that was purely on grades and scores. Which for me was genetics, not hard work.

 Quote:
And I dislike saying "hold" and "HOTI". Can I use your real first name? If not, I understand.


I would prefer if you didn't. But you can call me tax if you want something with less relationship connotations.


When you can see it coming, duck!
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
Not even when you graduated from law school? I'm just wondering if it's been so long since you've tasted "chocolate", you forgot how good it could be.

What about when you started running? No sense of accomplishment? No feelings of, "Wow! I never thought I could do -that-!"?

Understood on the name. It's not the relationship connotation. Those other two terms just sound silly to my ear.

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,652
J
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,652
How about "Tex the Tax Man"?

Gives you a sort of cowboy aura. Content to spend nights alone on the range, with just the coyotes for company. Honest and WYSIWYG. A love-em-and-leave-em, no strings attached lone wolf.


me - 47 tired
H - 39 cool
married 2001
DS 8a think
DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy:
(Why is DS7b now a blockhead???)
(Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,638
I think I would feel ultra-gay calling him that.

Keep your fantasies out of this jayne.

Page 6 of 91 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 90 91

Link Copied to Clipboard
Who's Online Now
2 members (2 invisible), 59 guests, and 78 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Man in Dallas, NHgirl66, Hibiscus_22, Isaiah46.4, Ethereal15
71,605 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,512
Posts2,322,343
Members71,605
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5