Have you mentioned to her you are contemplating divorce when the kids graduate?

Oh no. You are right. It won't. It might have 18 or 15 or 13 years ago. Back before I realized how little enjoyment she gets from it. Now it doesn't help. Which is why I no longer press for it.

I still resent her for not providing more. But I don't feel any better on the relatively infrequent occassions when she does.


I have always felt this way. Been dependent on others for self esteem. I have never had any internally generated sense of self worth.


Agreed. But that simply means that at the present time I have no way to feel better about myself. Because I cannot ethically be with someone who truly desires me. And I cannot do well enough at work to avoid feeling like a failure. So I continue to slog along hoping for lightning to strike.

Mrs. Hold got me lottery tickets for Father's Day. Needless to say, we did not win.


Yes. I told her several times. That I cannot make any promises about our future after the kids leave. That I am mostly staying to be with the kids and live in the house. That it is tremendously painful for me, on a daily basis, to remain married to her.

She has told me several times lately she feels, on balance, glad she married me. She feels I am a good person and a great father and she wants to stay together despite her disappointment. I never say the same back to her. I tell her she is a good person with a big heart who means well. I am sure it hurts her when I do not mirror her sentiment. Then again, it is not like I did not tell her continuously for 8 years during MC that I was unhappy. Or that I haven't told her numerous times over the past 5 years (since we stopped MC) that I still am.

Lately we have been much more honest with each other. Or more accurately, she has finally been willing to be honest with me (and herself). Perhaps over time this honesty will lead to renewed respect and a willingness on both our parts to make additional changes in our behavior. I am staying for at least the next 5 years regardless. So I continue to hope for change even as I despair of either of us choosing to make any.

Been to the basement, lately, to see if you really do have "Healing the Shame that Binds Us", Hold?

You promised.

LA

I don't have the time right now to do justice to what I want to say.

At the moment, I am trying to use Steve Harley to get my wife to move from an attitude that Hold thinks he would envy, so I also feel a bit unqualified to give anyone advice.

This does prompt me to start a new thread, taking up on one from last year, about financial security and domestic support.

Let me say this: How much good do you think you can do the children by setting an example of an arrangement where both of you are always keeping score, and always coming up short in the eyes of each other, and of yourselves? You do realize, don't you, that until you learn to resolve the attitude problems you have now, that neither one of you will be able to find the happiness you want with any other person - so why not start changing now? Neither one of you can give this a fair shot with divorce when the children leave out there as an option, much less a goal. Don't even think about it. Give 100% effort to fixing the problems by focusing on what's good until the children are grown, then see where you are.

I don't think I am setting a very good example for the kids. I just think I would set an even worse example divorced. Right now I have a little bit of a life outside my marriage. And Mrs. Hold and I are basically pleasant to one another. After divorce I would be worthless (no life, sit in my apartment staring at the walls) and if the kids are still living with us, Mrs. Hold and I would wage nuclear war. If the kids are gone I don't think we would have much to fight about. No custody issues. No child support issues. Not much property to split up (equity in the house should just about cover our credit card bills, so we equalize 401(k) plans and we're done). Mrs. Hold will get whatever spousal support the court gives her and that is it.


I agree that I would have to become much healthier before I could expect to have a successful relationship with another woman. I don't expect to ever be healthier. Or to find happiness. I think Mrs. Hold probably can find happiness. She claims to have been happy for most of our marriage. I think she could easily be happy with someone else.


I do not believe it is possible for me to fix the problem. I gave it my best shot for 8 years. The frustration of trying and making zero progress was overwhelming. The goal is the only thing that gets me out of bed in the morning. 1866 days to go.

If someone is going to fix this problem, it will have to be Mrs. Hold. And she has given zero indication that she wants it fixed. As she said, she is disappointed but on balance is content where she is. Whether she will continue to be content 5 years from now remains to be seen.

I have posted on another board. I want to be in love with my wife. But I am too beaten down to reach out to her. She will have to reach out to me. I would run to her arms if she did. But if she doesn't, I will stay huddled in my corner. Which is where I think she sits. On the other side of the room. Huddled in her corner. Both too afraid to reach out. She rejects me to pre-empt me hurting her. I understand the mechanism. That doesn't mean I am willing to keep getting body parts handed to me on a plate.

She recently said "I hardly ever wake you up when you are sleeping. I think it is rude." I replied "the difference is, when you wake me up, I am glad to see my beautiful wife looking down at me. I am glad to be woken up by you. When I wake you up, you cut me a new orifice."

Last night I walked in the door and said hello. My daughter came running to give me a hug. My wife yelled at me for making noise. That about sums it up.

Just got a cold call from a stock broker. He asked if I wanted to buy some bonds. I told him I have no investable assets so I can't help him. He said "come on, you have been a lawyer for 25 years. Don't tell me you don't have any money. Don't lie to me. Lawyers aren't supposed to lie."

It was the truth. Boy am I depressed.

Go home and tell your wife about that conversation.

Tell her you really do want her to work and pay back what she stole from the family. How much you'd like to see a separate account for her paychecks to go into, so you guys can buy bonds together, out of it, someday.

She can work and still get the kids where they need to go. You know she can. Believe in her...urge her for this amends...because even if you refuse to stop hating yourself...doesn't mean she has to...

as she does...

Be bigger than you are today and layout some redemption. Maybe then, inside you, you'll choose differently.

LA

Happy to. She'll just think I am even more pathetic.


Happy to. I don't have enough orifices. Just got the hemerrhoids to stop bleeding. Guess it is time to open another wound.


????? As she does what? Hmmm. Doesn't mean she has to hate me. As she does? Wait, I thought I was the one who hated me? You mean she hates me too?

Or are you saying she hates herself? And working might help her stop hating herself? Man I am so confused.

She hates herself, too, Hold. Not you.

Yep.

What she thinks of you is her business. And I think you lie. You say she'll think you more pathetic when that's what you're thinking of yourself, right after that stock broker's call.

I think you add to the depth and injury she does...you hand her the scapel and guide her hand. You have your part.

You won't nurse your wounds...you won't heal them...so you only see rejection coming from her. When the choice to NOT heal is you rejecting yourself...and she gets the double-blame.

Resentment ties us in knots, poisons our reasoning and uses lies to do so. The payoff is pathetic...

you aren't.

LA

HOLD, it would be good if you hung out with non toxic friends who would be encouraging and accepting. If you are around people like your wife only, you may get used to having a bad or negative view of yourself.

Around other normal, nice folks, you could see that you are FINE, your income is FINE, higher than most, and it is your WIFE who has the ego problem wanting more and more money that she does not have to work for herself. She does not realize that money, even big money, will not heal inner wounds nor will it make you more accepted and loved in this world by others.

We chatted for a few minutes last night on the phone. We agreed that we are better off than 90%+ of the people in the world but neither of us will stop beating the other person up for what they can't provide.

When I got home Mrs. Hold continued to be chilly. I spent an hour with her but then got tired of being rejected so I left to play PS3. Woke up this morning and she rolled over into the "maybe you can snuggle with me if you don't press for sex" position. Usually I find that irresistable. Today I was not even tempted to roll toward her, much less touch her. I am starting to despise myself for wanting to touch her. For settling for crumbs. I could tell after I got up to get ready for work that she was confused by my refusal to roll toward her. She was looking for affirmation that I am still hooked.

I told her she is beautiful and wished her a nice day. She smiled. It never ceases to amaze me how willing she is to live in denial.

Hold, you are not even asking for ideas or strategies to break this dance. This sounds like a diary of two people trapped in a snowed-in cabin or on a desert island together, recording the dwindling supply of food and water.

Not just her, Hold. You deny that you have any control over you self esteem and continue to find ways in which you are a failure. I'm dangerously close to saying what many here have said which is to find value in yourself, be a more positive thinker. Not that easy or simple even if you did desire that.

Maybe this grove you have going in your head is the equivalent to what people addicted to substances feel. They must have "it" to feel "normal" regardless of the fact that "normal" is killing them. It's all self abuse.

Maybe you need to reach rock bottom in self loathing. Did you chose to value yourself by not seeking crumbs when your W showed she would allow some touch?

Adding to that, you and your wife need to stop for just a while thinking about all that above you that you have not achieved and don't have, and ask yourselves how you would handle what others are experiencing, of your income falling to half what it is today, or one third, or a fourth? Better to examine that now, and the core beliefs behind your attitudes about money, success, self-esteem vs self-respect.

Correct. I am not trying to break the dance. I am merely trying to endure the next 5 years. Then I can break the dance permanently.

To break the dance I would have to succeed at work. Then either Mrs. Hold would respect me and be in love with me and happiness would reign. Or I could afford to divorce her and find someone else. In all cases, the path to happiness runs through my career success. Problem is, I do not believe I am capable of career success. I cannot summon the will to even try. If I try and fail, it is on me. If I sit in my cesspool of hatred and self-loathing, and focus on my marital woes, then I can tell myslf my failure is all on her. Since I believe I am going to fail either way, might as well blame it on her.

Nams: How do I feel about not rolling toward her? Hard to say. So conflicted inside. I want the crumbs. I have no hope of getting more than crumbs. I feel a small pride that I said no. But maybe that is not pride. Maybe that is my sick masochistic glee in knowing that my rejection of her will only tear our relationship further apart. I will hate her more. She will not be motivated to provide more than crumbs. She will feel rejected as well. We will further withdraw from one another. Another brick will be placed onto the wall.

I have chronicled our relatively honest talks here the past few days. We both recognize the mechanisms involved. She has not offered to make herself more available physically any more than I have offered to make additional efforts at work. We have both chosen to "stand pat". As Retread says, we are sitting in the cabin watching the supplies dwindle. Waiting for death to arrive. Well, I am. Not sure what she is doing. Sometimes I think she is like me. Sees it but can't bring herself to change. Other times I think she is in denial. Unwilling to accept that the supplies are dwindling.

If my income fell substantially, that might be welcome. If it continued for a substantial period, at my age, the divorce judge would have to accept that I will never again earn this much. There goes much of Mrs. Hold's support obligation. Plus, if my income dropped significantly, then she would HAVE to get a job. Ca-ching, my support payment just went down again!

Plus, we are at the "sour spot" where we don't qualify for financial aid for college but can't afford to make the payments ourselves. If my income disappeared, the kids would qualify for more financial aid. At half my current income, between the income taxes I don't have to pay and the increased financial aid my kids get, I might actually clear more during the 6 - 10 years of higher education than I will clear at my current income level.

I know. I am fooling myself. It probably won't work out that well. I would probably be miserable. My kids would suffer. Now who is living in a fantasy land?

"I am not trying to break the dance. I am merely trying to endure the next 5 years. Then I can break the dance permanently."

This kind of thinking reminds me of people who are very frugal. They live a life focused on what they will do when can be free of the "need" for frugality. But, years of living a particular life style has ingrained thoughts and behaviors they can't, and don't, want to change.

Will your self loathing disappear the day your possible divorce happens?

You keep coming up with reasons nothing can change until you're away from Mrs. H. Though your jobs plays a part in not allowing yourself to feel pride. This is putting her in charge of your self worth, or your job, or your level of income. There is always some outside source making it impossible for you to find value in yourself.

"In all cases, the path to happiness runs through my career success."

Then perhaps your definition of career success needs to be examined. Less emphasis on earning top money. More emphasis on finding value in what you do and how you do it. If you were complete s..t at your job you'b be out on the street.

"I feel a small pride that I said no."

Stop here. Feel the pride you didn't accept what would not make you feel good. End of story. Stop over analyzing what it might mean and how she might react. This is your choice to be proud of. You don't need to share that with anyone. It was a good choice and you felt pride. Let it go at that.

Show this to your wife http://www.globalrichlist.com/

No. Certainly not. I don't expect divorce to "fix" me. I don't expect to ever be fixed. I think not living with her will remove one external reminder of how far I fall short of expectations. But I am confident I will find other ways to torture myself after she is gone.


No. It is within me. I hate myself, and I cannot imagine ever stopping that. Divorce is not about freeing me to thrive. I am never going to thrive. Divorce is about not having someone else slice little pieces off every night. I do a sufficiently good job of that all by myself, thank you.

While our kids are home, living with them makes it worthwhile for me to accept her cuts. After the kids are gone, there is much less reason for me to take crap from her. Not that this is all her fault. I am my own worst enemy. I don't fail because I take her crap. I fail on my own. I take her crap because I don't believe I deserve better.


As you say, I don't do a complete s**t job. But I make enough mistakes that I cannot afford to go out on my own or take a position where I am the only one at my firm who knows how to do this. Things will fall through the cracks. I need to be here where there are enough colleagues who understand this stuff that someone always catches what I miss.

Do I also catch their mistakes? Yes, sometimes I do. As you say, I am not completely without value. But having something to offer and being fully competent in my own right are 2 entirely different things.