Eh...instinct, I think, Hold. Nature's way of making sure the human race continues.

If nothing else, it was probably good that she was part of the conversation, so that she could appreciate by those close to her that it's very normal for the average male to think this way and not just her husband.

Do you genuinely think she cared that you thought this way? Or was it that you just wanted her to feel that way - responsible for your mindset, perhaps?

Yes. The tone in her voice when she taked about how I react and how other men react made her view of my reaction quite clear.

Correct. Notice that I say "to be with my kids". Not for them. For me. It may be good for them. Or not. No way to know. All the studies say it can cut either way and no way to predict which way any kid will fall.


Yes, we discuss this all the time. If I thought I would set a better example apart, I would leave. I think I would set an even worse example apart. I will not find another relationship, be happy, and flourish. I will sit in a dinky apartment throwing a permanent pity party. Being with my kids helps me be a better me than I would be divorced. Which is a pretty darn sad statement.


No idea. My D is a very chatty person. She is also into hugs and physical affection. We have discussed not marrying a "not into huggies" person.

Sorry, you lost me on both statements.

Hmm, OK, I think the second means you think I wanted to tell my wife that repeated rejection will tear down any man? I don't believe this. Many. maybe most. Not all. But I guess you and I can agree that repeated rejection has a high risk of tearing down a man, so if you don't want your man torn down, don't reject him.

Still clueless on the first one.

What I meant, Hold, is that maybe after her disdainful remark about your feelings towards rejection, you wished you could have explained further to your friends why you feel as you do and why you said what you did.

Why would repeated rejection not tear a person down over time? I can't think of any personality type that would not eventually suffer from this. Hold, I think your wife is not comfortable with accountability. That's fine. Just keep that in mind for your own benefit. You give whatever she says and does far too much credence and seem to let it define who you are and how you view yourself. You have to remember her remarks are tinged with refusal to accept her part in it. It is far, far easier to deflect than to reflect, and it's what she's most comfortable doing. jmo.

I think what I'm learning here is that

1. Plan A can fail and one reason for this can be where the 'Temporary Angel' spouse continues operating from stuffed resentment. This makes the following advice I was given on my thread make even more sense- "do these things because you love him not because you hope to get xyz in return. If you do it purely for reciprocation then you are just being manipulative to get something you want and not acting out of love' (I've paraphrased this from memory)- thanks to the person who said this.

2. At some point (irrespective of whether there's been a plan A phase or not) Both partners have to make a sincere and honest effort with the MB program. Otherwise it doesn't work.

Anyway, hold as this is your thread I just have a couple more final comments for you.

A: Would you consider doing just one more Plan A stint to give it another try?

B: If no. Then I'll check in on your thread now and again - I've got some good tips on disengaging and mentally separating if that's the way you want to proceed.

Hold, I wish you all the very best - mainly I hope you get bored with "taking the poison" (LOL) and see the illogicality of it at some point. If not then - all I can say is ....all this self flagellation ...(jeesh) believe me...BTDT.....it's really a kind of dishonorable way of avoiding personal growth by saying "see look how I recognize my faults look how hard I beat myself up. I don't buy it Hold. Not one bit. It's a kind of a way of doing nothing whilst saying "I know I'm doing nothing - but look how guilty and sorry I am that I'm doing nothing! That makes me it all forgiveable right?" Wrong, Hold, it's a kind of cheating. I can say this to you Hold because I used to have exactly the same way of thinking. I learned, that in fact it's a very common defense mechanism (one of the sneakier ones!) and provides a perfect excuse for not changing. And it really isn't an honorable approach (no matter how hard you are on yourself - LOL).I don't know if I'm resonating with you at all. All I do know is that if you don't change your approach then your situation has zero chance of changing. and that's fine s'long as you realize this.

I found this on the Shrink for Men web site. Describes me perfectly.

If you believe the clich�, �You can�t love anyone else until you love yourself,� then there should be no pursuit of a love interest until you learn to love yourself. If you�re attracted to others who can�t love you in return, you�ll begin a futile cycle of pursuit and distancing behaviors. Think of it as �mutually assured unhappiness.�

This pattern of behavior typically reinforces your inner and oftentimes unacknowledged feelings of worthlessness and inadequacy. In other words, you seek intimacy and love from others who either can�t tolerate or aren�t capable of intimacy and love, which confirms your faulty beliefs about being undeserving or having to work for love.

Veejay, you are exactly correct. I am dishonorably avoiding personal growth. And I intend to continue doing so. I don't feel better about feeling guilty about it. I just don't feel like changing.

I have been taking the poison for years. I have been on an all poison, all the time diet since May 2005 when we stopped working on our marriage. I can make another 5 years.


Not until the kids leave home. At this point, the playing field for conducting POJA negotiations is tilted in her favor. She can always play the Plan D card and blow me away. When the kids are gone, we can negotiate in a more even-handed manner. Maybe then I will give it one more try before leaving.

And thanks for offering tips on mentally disengaging. So far, I have found what works for me. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2!

Hold,

Not for Plan A, B, S or D...not for saving your marriage...not for any reason but freedom for you...

would you please act from honesty in response to your W?

On the kiss on lips...where you assumed entitlement..."I hear you feel entitled because you're my wife, not a friend." Not even the "did I hear that right?" at the end...just honest.

Same with her statement about not all men...just you. "I hear disdain in your voice and in your words for me. That I don't measure up to other men you're comparing me to."

You're hearing...doesn't mean she's saying. Both have many ways to infer...and you pick one...the one that hurts worse...and you'd be surprised, after the self-stab...that even if she responds with "Yes, I meant to show my contempt"...doesn't hurt twice...

because you protect by picking the worst without honest confirmation or clarification. If it really hurt worse for your worst inference confirmed, you'd be doing that every time...to deepen the pain, solidify the resentment...prove yourself truly right.

And you don't.

So do. And you did a short while back...without your eye on her response...do it now, with your curious nature, your intrigued self...

for wishing you didn't have that constant rejection experience isn't the same as seeing you as inferior for it.

LA

(I cannot imagine your W has the acuity to shred you as you do in your own mind...you service your thirst for rejection non-stop, IMO. Like you're following The Rule of Rejection instead of Protection.)

Well, Hold you just have an answer for everything don't you? (that's about the 3rd time your posts have made me smile)

I'm starting to suspect you're quite happy in your unhappiness!

As someone who is NOT married to you I find you play the game in quite a charming and disarming way. I do feel sorry for your wife though - I hope she finds someone who is prepared to at least try and love her.

I have absolutely nothing left to say to you - except enjoy COD!

Not happy. Comfortable. Deathly afraid of leaving my comfort zone. And dedicated to justifying my choice to stay here. Same as my wife. We are very well matched in that way.


I feel sorry for both of us. I see her as a scared and lonely girl huddled in the corner. She has been hurt. She desperately wants to be loved and nursed back to health. Unfortunately, I did not come to see this side of her until far too late in the game. After my love bank had been run so deep into the red that I am unwilling to extend further "credit" in the hope that this can be turned around.

I share the same hope for her as you do. I just hope that she waits until after we are divorced to go looking.

And as in many things, we all need to be careful what we wish for. I tried to love her for many years. Tried to eliminate LBs. Tried to meet her ENs. But the more we spent enjoyable time together, the more I wanted sex. Drove me nuts. Which I had to hide. Which was stressful and exhausting. These days I am more at peace. The reality is unhappy. But more consistent. I can behave more in accordance with how I feel (if we aren't going to have much sex, I don't want to spend much time alone with you). Less stressful. Even if less happy.

Trust me, it was not better back when I was trying to love her.

Hmmm, if you mean, trying to love her in the way she prefers to be loved. Then yes, that would be good. But I can't do that. Nor can she do that for me. So eventually we will be better off apart. But not now.

Some would find it a spur to self improvement. They would use the repeated rejection as motivation to become richer, more educated, stronger, fitter, etc. They would TRY to overcome the rejection and achieve success. I gave up the game. Rather quickly and easily. Plenty of men have more cojones than that.

I guess there may be some, but I doubt success erases the pain.

This morning Mrs. Hold was very upset. S15 lost his basketball uniform and will be benched today. She has lots of work for D12's swim team. The dryer broke. She felt bad physically and couldn't decide whether to go to the gym. I gave her a hug. I got an erection holding her. She asked what she should do. I told her "take your husband to the bedroom and take advantage of circumstances". So I broke my "rule" not to initiate.

She consented. We tried something different than SOSO. It worked out OK.

Afterward I asked her "so is it more like the sex distracts you from worrying about the broken dryer or does the broken dryer distract you from the sex?" She said "that is a trick question I can't win by answering". I replied "not what I meant. I know your mind was elsewhere, but you consented anyway. Thank you for making such a loving and generous and caring gesture."

Well, at least she consented, even if she was feeling bad physically.

Wow, hold, if you're not careful you may end up with an improved marriage when you're not looking.

So, is the dryer fixed?

dred,

That's where his wife found the basketball uniform. His ds had stuffed it back through the vent hose and the dryer burnt out not being able to cool down.

We called Sears since it is on repair contract. They will be over Tuesday to fix it. So this weekend we will be at the laundromat.

Fix the basketball uniform? I didn't know sears does that, why not buy a new dryer that way your son will have a new uniform to wear.

I've overheated my dryer before...any chance that after it's cooled down and the vent hose is cleaned of debris/lint it will start again without a repair man?

Just wanted to remind everyone that dryer vent fires are one of the leading causes of house fires, from what I understand. Home Depot, etc., have cleaning kits for this sort of thing that you can do yourselves. We just had a family displaced a week ago in our area because of a fire caused this way.