Hold,

That's odd, our friends have a neigboor with brain cancer, and their daughter was been to the hospital with 2 seizures. We think it was the gardesil shot for her.

hold, I just wanna say, YOU SO SMART! I truly admire your wit and wisdom. And, I never knew there was a scientific reason behind "Yes Dear."

At one time soldiers in ancient Rome were paid, in part,
with a ration of salt called a solarium, from the Latin word
sal (which means salt). If a soldier's performance was not up to
standard, that soldier was said to be "not worth his salt."

Later, when salt was replaced with an actual money allowance
to buy the salt, the allowance itself was called a solarium.
Eventually, solarium came to mean the wages themselves,
and this led to our calling one's pay a salary.

"Worth his salt" is an expression dating to the Roman Empire.
Roman slaves were sent to the salt mines ( another expression we still use). Roman soldiers were paid partly in coin, and partly in salt, as a sort of bonus. They would then sell the salt, which was expensive, as were all spices. A good soldier was worth his salt.

Cross post!

Awesome Retread and Hold...thank you for that.

Well then, Hold, you've been worth your salt...and now I see how a high maintenance woman would actually be what you'd want...because she would make you earn more salt, be worth more rewards, over time, than you thought possible by yourself?

And I would think a solider worth his salt would require a lot from his wife, too...rather equally. And I think you both do, just not currently in the same way.

Does that mean Hold's spicy, too, Retread?

LA

PS - Themud...Amen right back to you, sir.

I know. But it is misplaced. Neither of us was smart in choosing a partner. Or in reacting to our mistake.

I married a woman I thought was "above my pay grade", but I hoped to move higher on the ladder to deserve her. Mistake. I never did move higher on the ladder. She married me for what she expected I would earn. Mistake.

We both wish we were married to someone else. She wants someone who actually has as much money as she imagined I would have by this time. And I want someone who doesn't need that much money to be satisfied. Neither of us will ever get what we want while we stay together. Yet neither of us is motivated to leave.

Does not seem smart or wise to me.


LA, the virtuous cycle you describe is what my uncle is aiming for. Each spouse encourages the other to greater achievement. Never worked that way for me and Mrs. Hold. We do not inspire the other to achievement. We just grind each other down lower and lower. We reinforce each other's worst tendencies. It has been a disaster from the beginning. Now we are both too stubborn to get out.

And FYI, althoguh I am sure you would predict my response, I do not agree that I have proven "worth my salt". I have been a failure professionally. And since the linch-pin of our marriage is my earning capacity, failure in my career outweighs any other aspect of our life together.

This thread is truely very sad. Hold has all the answers or reasons for why or why not and all the what ifs.Hold if you put a fraction of the effort in improving your marriage,happiness and your well being, as you put in with the time it takes to ponder all the reasons for not doing what many tell you might help(but you always have a reason for not)You might have a different out look on life,as well as your wife. You cant truely belive that with all your negativity in your respouces on this thread and as well in your life that it does nt effect your children,life, wife,job and ect. If you know that it does why than getting the attention to your thread have you not done anything to help your personal feelings. Writing about your self pitty does nt count! Have you been to the doctor? Why dont you do something for yourself? Do you like living in the self pitty? DO SOMETHIG TO HELP YOUR SITUATION!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to agree with DSD: hold, you continually sound like you have given up, so what are you wanting to happen? You you need to talk to your uncle, and your wife needs to talk to your aunt.

If all your problems were removed tonight, where would you be tomorrow? Stuck in neutral. You can't have neutral as your goal in life; maybe for a goal next month, but your life needs positive goals.

Again, I suggest reading, "The Exceptional Seven Percent".
It's what marriage can be after you fix all the problems.

Or better yet, try something that we know works! Marriage Builders. It is an excellent program that really works when you work it.

Check into phone coaching with a trained, experienced, certified Marriage Builders coach here or the Marriage Builders weekend seminar March 19th & 20th, 2010

Melody, the reason I first read HNHN is because I read "The Exceptional Seven Percent". They are not the same thing. They are not competing methods. Dr. Harley has a terrific, complete system for fixing what is broken and missing in your marriage. Dr. Popcak shows what is possible beyond that, and the the Relationship Pathway to get you from one level to the next.

The reason I recommend it is because it is not about the negative things in marriage, so it is not threatening. It is a positive vision of how to make good better. You can't embark on building an exceptional marriage without fixing all the problems first, and Harley's method is unbeatable for that.

Retread, people can and do embark on building exceptional marriages here every day using Marriage Builders concepts. One does not have to fix other problems [other than alcohol addition] in order to put it to work. You CAN embark on exceptional marriage building without fixing other problems. We do it here all the time. In fact, Dr Harley often says that trying to fix other problems is a distraction from fixing the problems in the marriage.

Melody, you don't have to convince me about Marriage Builders.
It is about fixing problems. I don't understand what these "other problems" are that you mention. I am referring to the problems on which Dr. Harley focuses.

I must disagree with you about embarking on an exceptional marriage before you have fixed a bad marriage and have a good marriage. It is impossible. That is the nature of progress.

I see TE7PC as the vision, and HNHN as the mechanics of the details. There is no conflict between the two.

Ok, it makes sense when you put it this way. I agree that one obviously has to repair the bad marriage in order to have a great marriage, which is what Marriage Builders does.


I am not sure what you are saying here, though. One does not have to go read another book to embark on Marriage Builders but it sounds like you are saying that is the case. Can you clarify?

The Exceptional Seven Percent is not about fixing your marriage.
It is for those who already have good marriages to make them exceptional. Because it only marginally addresses bad behaviors, it is a totally positive vision of marriage. The reason I mention it to Hold is that he (and his wife) feel so low, that his goal is to just remove some of the pain. He doesn't even believe he can get back to zero.

Everyone needs a positive vision, a higher goal than survival.

I was discussing this with Mark1952 last year. Many of the people here are under the water. They are dying to just get to the surface to for a breath of fresh air. But once you save yourself from drowning, and look up there is a whole other world out there. You don't have to just kept treading water. There is land to walk on, mountains to climb, maybe even fly up to the clouds, like all these other creatures are doing.

Marriage Builders is tough, not because it is negative, but because it deals with eradicating the negative and developing positive behaviors... in yourself first. It holds up a mirror to you. It's like a physical fitness program that makes you stop drinking, smoking, and eating junk food, with regular exercise that makes you shed fat and tone up. We know how scary that is to people who are badly out of shape. The reason most of them can't even start such a fitness turnaround is that they cannot envision themselves as lean, healthy and full of energy. All they can see is the hard work.

Thanks for the explanation, Retread. I agree that hold is under water along with many others here. That is why I IMPLORE them to get coaching directly from the Harleys. MARRIAGE BUILDERS can lead anyone who uses it to an exceptional marriage. With a tried and true track record. Thirty years of demonstrated success is unheard of in this business.

If you read the book we are reading now, Effective Marriage Counseling, Dr Harley outlines the problem of motivation ["creative wilderness] in his book and how they are able to motivate people out of their wilderness. They are able to do remarkable things in marriages in a short period of time that leads them out of this wilderness.

Marriage is a quality of life issue that has a domino effect on the rest of one's life. It has affected every aspect of my life, my friendships, my career, my relationships with my family. When you fix a troubled marriage, the rest of one's life falls in line. And others here can have the same thing too, if they will just USE the program. I sense sometimes that folks don't understand the gold mine they are sitting on. If they would only use it.

I would refer good folks like hold to others on this board who do have exceptional marriages because most of them have something in common: they all used Marriage Builders.

Marriage Builders is the solution.

The first motivational problem is getting someone to even look at Marriage Builders. They have to want, just a enough, to improve their marriage that they will read one of the books or agree to phone counseling, or go to an MB Weekend seminar.

When I first read HNHN a few years ago, I was realized this was a complete package by a hands on counselor, who had failed for years, studied his failures, and developed a new set of methods by listening to his customers, using trial and error, testing and refinement. This is the same approach I use in my business consulting. It works. A systematic approach is the only want to diagnose and solve a system of problems.

But when I showed "His Needs, Her Needs" to my wife, she saw it as a book to change her. I told her, yes, and it is to change me, but only as part of changing marriage for the better. When she started reading it, the first few chapters are about affairs, and she formed the wrong impression that Dr. Harley is blaming the betrayed spouse for the affair. She is also of the mind that a person should follow their feelings, be who they are. She doesn't believe people can really change who they are, but only learn to put on an act. She put down the book and closed her mind.

A friend had noticed that my work habits had changed, and I told him I was making a conscious effort every time endless work commitment popped up, to ask myself if it interfered with my family life. If it did, I moved it. I told him about HNHN, which he borrowed. He did the same thing I had done, and got the same reaction. That is when I found this forum and started reading.

A book like FILSIL might have been a more positive approach, but I did not know about it at the time. "Lovebusters" gets right to the action, and it might be the best introduction. I have not read either one of those, because I understand the program. "The Exceptional Seven Percent" is something I wish my wife would read, but I am not talking about any of it. I just try to do it unilaterally for now. There is too much personal anxiety in her life right now to pay attention to anything else.

I agree. And this is why I have recommended calling Steve Harley to those of you with reluctant spouses. He is often able to motivate them to try Marriage Builders by giving the reporting spouse a plan to attract them. You don't have to get your spouses agreement to coach with Steve, he counsels you ALONE and gives you a plan to attract the spouse. For example, Steve has given spouses word by word talking points to use with reluctant spouses that motivated them to get on phone with him. Once they get on the phone with him, he sells them on the program. He does the work, you don't have to.



Because she is what Dr Harley would call a freeloader. From Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accomodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carpet, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

This is almost exactly how it played out for me. Steve role-played with me to get my husband on the phone. Unfortuantely, I had to go a bit more hard-bore than that and move to the couch and file D papers. But he VERY RELUCTANTLY agreed to call Steve. And spent 1.5 hours on the phone with him. And emerged with a whole different attitude.

This is a good point, OH. I think that it is also important for a reluctant spouse to understand that the bar has been RAISED and that the status quo is no longer sufficient. I conveyed this same message to my H, that I was not willing to stay in a bad marriage. Not interested. When a spouse picks the bar up off the ground, things usually start changing for the better.

Harley talks about this in the back of Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders in how to change a freeloader into a buyer. He claims he was a freeloader in his relationship with Joyce and she managed to change him!