Working out with Mrs. Hold doesn't work for me. There are some kinds of tasks we get along OK. We do not get along well when trying to accomplish a task, like home improvement. I am concerned that workouts would be more like home improvement than RC.

I could exercise while she is exercising. But not together.

Okay...you exercising at the same time, same place, but not together (same treadmill or equipment)?



No laughter for my extended hooters suggestions?

You bum.

LA

Not exercising same time same place. Exercising same time different place. I don't want to be in the same room. Triggers all the negative emotions that prevent us from doing home improvement projects together. I feel judged. Whatever I do is not the right way or not good enough. Maybe I could tolerate driving to and from the gym together as long as we work out in different rooms. But I think for now I would prefer to work out at home while she is at the gym.

And yes, your comments were very punny. Lighthearted pun is much appreciated here.

Working out is not home improvement.

You have your body and she has her own.

Home improvement is one home, two opinions.

However...I understand you mean you experience feeling judged, found lacking, not good enough.

I see this working out together as Mrs Hold getting an opportunity to lead the way...as you did before she joined the team...in fact, your working out, what, a year and half ago, precipitated her choice, didn't it? Or am I just rewriting your history?

Because partners inspire each other...and allowing her to take the lead a little, show you her regimen, sharing the parts she loves and the parts she struggles through...may just inspire you...allowing yourself to take inspiration...

which is a great way to replace your expectation of fear. You show up for the experience, and may have resulting feelings of closeness without judgment...feeling shared with...really a team of love...you don't know.

And working out is the easiest way to hear how much you judge yourself, tear yourself down, feel not enough from your own internal dialogue...which is honest and loving for yourself to do...

Often, we only hear our super sneaky internal tear downs when our partners, innocent of our harsh mental rhetoric, have some of it come out of their mouths...so we believe they are judging us, putting us down...not us.

And in my experience, when this happens, I don't hear that they are saying about themselves (not me), and that their rhetoric is similar to my own.

A bonding experience, exposing ourselves to our spouses. You can take it slowly. Just thought you recognizing your drooping emotions, you might want to change something up.

Charge something up.

However, she may not feel safe with you at her gym, either. Didn't know...just know sharing and asking are acts of love and intimacy...

Even when you don't feel safe...you can act, anyway.

You know that.

What did you trace your down feelings to, btw?

LA

I frequently feel down. It doesn't take anything to trigger them. I would say it more accurate to say that my set point is to feel down and that it requires an event for me to perk up.

I do need to change. In many ways. Get back to working out. Just not with Mrs. Hold. I still do not feel safe with her. My issue. And I do not trust myself to handle it. Also my issue.

She seems very happy lately. I am fighting against feeling like a doormat again. I have to keep myself focused on the needs she is meeting. And on the work I have to do within myself. And on the time frame within which change can reasonably be expected to occur. And not focus on the one need she is not meeting.

This all goes back to my not foregiving her. Or myself. I am not happy that she is happy. I am not satisfied that she is meeting some of my needs. I am not satisfied that I have taken steps to improve my life.

I am self sabotaging. And I don't know how to stop. I watch myself doing it on a daily basis. I wake up every day and tell myself today is a new day and I can make different choices. And then I don't. I hate myself so much. And I don't know how to stop that either.

Same old same old. Since I got here in 2002. Since I started therapy in 1978. It is getting VERY tiresome. But still I refuse to change.

are you still doing the counselling?

Hey HOLD, go easy on yourself, I am mad at her too! Look at the number she did on your life. If you were more confident you would have dumped her and got the marriage annuled before she had the children.

Face it, she stole from you ...your money...and your life.

I am glad she is getting thinner and is less miserable a person. At least she will be easier to live with. But your wounds run very deep and it will take a lot of scarring over (her not abusing you) and then the scars healing.

You should be feeling better about her in about three or four years.

What would speed up that healing, is if the "woman" came to you and told you she felt bad for stealing and blowing all the family nest egg you saved up....and that she was really sorry and was going to work full time for as long as it would take to pay that back!!!

HOLD< clearly she is NOT REALLY SORRY for all the money she stole, spent and lied about and SHE IS NOT REALLY SORRY for hurting you, abusing you and all but ruining or quelching (or destroying) your sex abilities, your sex drive, and your sexuality.

She should literally BE IN PRISON for doing those things to you and she did them for YEARS to you. Who could like her after all that? Losing 50 lbs is not going to help the resentment you stuffed for 15 years and became depressed over.

What may help is for you to slowly bring up that stuff to her. As you did that sexual rejection issue ...you did real good there!

If she is any kind of changed human being at all (from the efforts of eating healthy and working out) then she will respond.

I can guarantee it if you do bring up these things and she does respond in a way that proves how remorseful she is and if she makes amends in a way that is hard for her to do....

Then, you will feel a lot better not having that burdon between you causing resentment.

I look at her as a common criminal who ruins everyone's life around her and then...laughing and smiling..... skates free from prison not having to do any hard or easy time and not having to atone for what she did or make up for it or "pay the money back".

What kind of woman does this? She should be working her butt off paying that money back to show you she is remorseful and that she cares about you. Instead, she takes the easy way and keeps on using you again and again.

I really dislike human beings like that.

lil
No, stopped several years ago. Probably should go back.

baba
I don't think she is a bad person. Just wounded. Like me. I think the movie Bliss pretty much describes our marriage. I told her I thought we should watch it together.

This morning she puckered up as I was getting ready to leave for work. I said "hmmm, have you treated me well enough this morning to deserve a kiss?" I pondered for a few seconds. She said "I guess not." I moved closer. She puckered up. I hung an inch or so away from her face. She leaned in and gave me a peck. She looked at me. I said "we have moved into the you have to lean toward me phase of our marriage." Then I walked out the door.

HOLD, your wife wounded? I think not. She did not have an abusive childhood, she pretends she has been date raped but I even doubt that.

Nothing could make her the selfish woman, who is thieving money, and make her character bad like it is now.

She has CHOSEN to use you for money so she does not have to work. She has CHOSEN to withold sex from you and abuse you nearly every day. These are things she has CHOSEN for her life.

i could see it a little if she has had an abuse filled childhood. But even those damaged in childhood...people (even me) can choose to be a good person and a loving wife.

LA
I realize the reason I refuse to work out with Mrs. Hold is my shame. And my lack of trust that she will react well if I share my true self with her. Those are within me. I am still not ready to share the "real me" with her in all areas. Working out is too closely tied to sex for me to open myself in that area.

baba
Yes, I am sure that my being a "nice guy" caused her to choose me. Not with the intention to "use" me. Rather because she felt safe with me. When in reality that was the farthest from the truth. I have put intense psychological pressure on her to perform sexually, by conditioning my happiness in life on her sexual availability. I was just less urgent in making my demands. If I had been more overtly "pushy" earlier on, instead of being accommodating on the outside but seething on the inside, then she probably would not have chosen me. Because she would have felt threatened and insecure. Which would have been a more accurate reflection of my true position.

She made the mistake of paying attention to my behavior instead of my words - in most cases the wise choice. But in this case, I behaved as if I were much more willing to tolerate her lack of sexual availability than I actually was. I was just too wimpy to insist on what I wanted. Yes, she could have been more accommodating when became more insistent. But I believe her failure to do so was, at least initially, more about fear and pain than about any desire to take advantage of me. Although at this point she may feel she has no choice but to maintain the status quo regardless of its impact on me, given the passage of time, children, finances, etc.

Hold,

I understand. Maybe you can use my post to examine other areas where she can lead...like this morning, leaning into you phase.

Watch for what you cut out, off or don't allow. That's your job.

Question: By hating yourself, you're hating God's art work...doesn't that get in the way of your relationship to the artist?

LA

I know. I understand this all comes from my shame. But remember, I am quite willing to hide parts of myself if I judge that makes it more likely my marriage will continue, even if it also makes it likely that the marriage will continue to be unfulfilling.


No, not at all. I figure God has plenty of justification for punishing me for all the bad choices I have made. I do not believe God created nothing bad or wrong or evil. I believe God created things that are flawed and weak and evil to serve as the landscape on which good people operate. So far, I have not made good choices, and I am reaping what I sow. I see nothing that disrespects God in that analysis.

HOLD, your wife has you "well whipped", and buffaloed.

Someday you will wake up and see that you deserve more. You will learn to care for yourself more.

She has trained you to feel bad about yourself. If you had a normal loving wife, she would support you, laugh with you, make love to you and not abuse you. You would feel better about yourself with a good wife.

I shouldn't need a wife to feel good about myself. I should feel good about myself by myself. I felt bad before I met her. Before we got married. She has made it worse. She has made it harder to overcome. But she is not the fundamental cause.

Are you saying you believe that God made some people good, some flawed, others weak, and some other evil? They serve as counterpoints, background for the good people he loves to operate?

Are you saying that if we act flawed, then we are flawed? If we act evil, we are evil? If we act good, then we are good? How do evil creations earn God's love? Do they reap what they sow, even if it's good?

LA

I guess I am saying that God wishes I were strong and brave, and would make choices from integrity and values. But if I make choices out of fear and laziness, God won't prevent me from reaping what I sow. Regardless of whether I generally wish good or ill to others. Bad things happen to good people. More bad things happen to good people who don't have the guts to do the right thing.

Lets see if I start exercising, get back into therapy, and get serious about my career. Let alone do the tasks my temple hopes for me to do as social chair. I have opportunities. If I squander them, I have no one else (not even Mrs. Hold) to blame for my failures.

It is like someone else posted on another thread. Some people see a path from here to there and they are inspired to get going. Other people see a long path and despair of ever making the journey. When the flood waters rise, do you scramble to find a way to get to higher ground or break open the whiskey and drink yourself to oblivion? Different people make different choices. God does not always rescue those who choose not to help themselves.

Mrs. Hold made herself available today. I was unable to perform. Trying to see the glass as half full.

So frustrating. I know there are other things we could do together. But since Mrs. Hold is basically refuses to discuss anything, I have no idea what she likes, doesn't like, is willing to try, isn't willing to try. I get no feedback to manual or oral so I have no idea what works for her. Sometimes she lets me. Sometimes she turns down my offer. Even when she accepts I have no idea whether anything I do works for her. Which causes me to assume it does not. It doesn't take long when we are doing something else for her to push my head or hand away and give me the hand signal to "get busy". Now that we can't "get busy", it seems like there is no point to even getting started. I would like for sex to be more playful. But I don't know how to get there when my partner will not provide any feedback.

I know she enjoys the massages she gets at physical therapy much more than any massage I ever gave her. I offered to learn how to massage. Get some books or tapes and try them out on her. But she is not interested in participating.

Argh! I hate feeling so alone. I hate stumbling around in the dark with no guidance. Phuey!

Talk about this outside the bedroom. If she refused to talk about it at the kitchen table (no kids of course) or walks away, then tell her you are scheduling an appointment with a sex therapist. Have the name ready.

That usually makes them want to talk...if only to avoid the sex therapy!

If you are inexperianced, insecure, or clumsy in bed there may be nothing she likes FROM YOU. You have to put on an act for her in bed:

1. You are totally experianced with many woman
2. You are the stud women want
3. You are totally confident and try various things
4. You DEMAND a response from her with your hands
5. Your face, your hands, your body....ARE ALL TOTALLY CONFIDENT
6. What you do and how you touch her are utterly confident
7 You are the MAN, confident and secure
8. NOTHING she says or does has any effect on your wonderful bedroom confidence
9. You WILL be able to please her and have her begging for more. Tell her this. "You will beg for more after tonight, honey" even if she laughs it will get her mind going.


Besides basic knowledge of female anatomy you have to do and have the above attitudes. No woman wants a man who fumbles around or otherwise displays his bedroom insecurity. It is a real turn off. If you cannot be confident, try lightly restraining her hands or tying them. Then make love to her. That always puts YOU in the driver seat. You WILL do what you want with her! Women love that, maybe she would like it. Maybe not.