Hold, do you do the sex jokes on purpose? I get the feeling that I may be more reserved than most, but to me, knowing that Mrs. H has been gang-raped when she was young, didn't get counseling to cope, and has volunteered for years now at the rape crisis center, it would seem that you've gotta know on some level that those jokes, while they may be funny to others, would be in poor taste telling them to Mrs. Hold. How would you feel about asking her how it makes her feel when you share these jokes with her? I cringe whenever I read this stuff on your thread, like the "hooters" jokes around your daughter.

NED:

Will ask Mrs. Hold how she feels about the jokes. You may be correct. She may be touchier than she generally admits.

Told her about lunch with my buddy. Said I was happy in a wierd way to hear that he isn't having much sex. Told her I figured if he, who is better looking and richer than me, can't convince his wife to have sex with him, then I shouldn't feel so bad about not being able to get my wife to have sex with me. First she replied that he doesn't care as much as I do. I informed her that it is the #1 problem in their marriage and he is close to getting divorced over it. She said it is pathetic that I care so much about sex and that I feel good because he feels bad. I said many guys, including my buddy, care alot about sex. And that I don't feel good because he feels bad. I feel good because it can't be completely about my inadequacy if he, who is much less inadequate, also can't make it happen for himself.

I also talked about how my buddy is much more sensitive and less of a selfish jerk than I half expected him to be by this point. How he can't bring himself to pull the trigger on divorcing his wife despite the lack of sex and her weight gain and her heavy drinking. He has questions and doubts and fears. Hmmm, maybe that is why he and I get along?

Anyway, Mrs. Hold make it clear she thinks I am scum for continuing to care about sex. So maybe my sex jokes do bother her more than she communicates at the time. I'll ask her.

I wonder... do you think you joke about it because that's the "only" way you feel it is "safe" to mention sex? Like, using humor to mention something that otherwise would be left unsaid?

She seems to have made some improvements... in spite of her tonight thinking you are scum for wanting/needing sex. Do you think now would be a good time to point out to her (again) that SF is a very valid EN, especially for males? You could mention the hormones that are released that create the emotion of bonding for men, etc.

I'd be real tempted to point out to her the times that you have tried meeting her halfway, and she didn't budge, didn't honor her side.

Not to cause an argument or to dredge up the past, but to let her know *why* you feel the way you do. It seems like she *might* be starting to open up, a little, and it might help her to be reminded of all your attempts in the past. She may still have blinders on there, but maybe she's now at a point where she could start to see, if reminded.

Honestly, not as an argument. I know that I have sometimes started getting all wrapped up in myself, and drowning in self-pity, and it really does help to have someone point out another viewpoint.

Hold, I would think, instead of pointing out all the attempts in the past, it would make sense to point out that you're in a different marriage today, one where you two want to and enjoy sharing SF together in ways that are special and meaningful to both of you. I know in my self-talk, it's a lot easier/simpler to think of a clean slate starting fresh today than rethinking old scenarios when I had less tools.

I'm going to chime in here because I also find myself cringeing at times when I read Hold's posts. And maybe what I say won't be popular.

SF is different than 'sex'. I think Hold is referring to SF all the times he mentions sex and that to us at least, it seems that SF is a key component in looking for that connection/keeping that connection to his wife. Making him feel like a man because he is validated in his marriage. And so on.

But Hold...is that what Mrs. Hold is hearing? Or is she hearing that if she even tries to meet you partway, you are going to want sex for sex's sake morning, noon and night?

Is there a way to tell her that it's all tied into one big happy marriage bubble for you? Perhaps you have told her this but knowing her past, she might even be more inclined to separate the two in her head. Her comment about marrying a "nice Jewish guy" says a lot, if you think about it. The general consensus is that "nice Jewish guys" respect their wives and their families, are good providers, don't cheat and are not into kinky stuff. Maybe in her mind being a "NJG" went one step further and put you in a category of someone who would love her and protect her and not make her a sex object because she's had enough of that.

Not excusing Mrs Hold or saying you have to take a vow of celibacy. But somehow, if you were able to communicate to Mrs. Hold that she is NOT a sex object to you; she is your wife and you love her dearly. You love her so much, that making love with her (not "having sex") is a natural extension of your feelings.

Hearts and flowers stuff you know? And maybe in little 'drive-bys' rather than a whole heavy discussion.

Some of it is style and sense of humor.

Perhaps they are missing the mark with one another, but I wouldn't feel the same if it were me. I have a little bit of a jester side to me, and I would find Hold's jokes HILARIOUS--even considering the sexually inappropriate things that have happened in my life (fortunately not rape, though).

In any case, have never even considered that his wife might be troubled. I thought the Hooters thing was terribly funny.

Then again, I KNOW my sense of humor can be hard for my husband to take at times.

I can be quite irreverent. And I lOVE to laugh.

Good to check with his wife, for sure.

I think that is exactly what she thought. That I was "safe" and would not objectify her. She mistook my being polite (unassertive) as lack of interest. She though because I wasn't as pushy as other guys that I wasn't as interested as other guys. Obviously, she could not have been more wrong.


I could not communicate that honestly. She IS a sex object to me. I don't want to have sex with her merely because I have some kind of pure intellectually-based love for her. This is not ONLY about my desiring a merging of our souls. I am a hairy smelly horny guy like all the other hairy smelly horny guys and I think she has a hot bod and I want to have sweaty hot passionate physically-based sex with her. I also love her and want to build a shared life together. But I do in fact objectify her. She has a great butt and a great rack and a curvy hourglass figure and those were among the things that attracted me to her.

That is why we are not compatible. She thought she had found something in me that does not exist. She thought she found a guy who would never objectify her. I am NOT that guy. I do not want to be married to a woman who resents that I objectify her. I want to be with a woman who enjoys that her husband objectifies her. Maybe not 24 / 7 / 365. Maybe not in public. I can compromse on the time, place and manner in which my behavior manifests my desire for her. But I have lust in my heart. And I need my wife to be comfortable with being the object of my desire. And if my wife wishes that I didn't have any desire to focus on her, then we are not right for each other.

I believe my wife wishes I didn't lust at all. I don't believe there is room in her heart for a husband who objectifies her to even the smallest extent. And I am not going to pretend that I never do.

"Objectifying" really has a bad connotation to me. Are you sure it isn't more along the lines of, you appreciate your wife's physical characteristics and you wish she were comfortable in her sexuality and her sex appeal?

IMHO to objectify means you completely disregard their status as a person. KWIM?

You gave her kudos for exhibiting self-esteem. IMHO a person comfortable with being objectified would have pretty low self-esteem.

Whereas a person with healthy self-esteem could certainly be comfortable with flaunting her sexuality for her husband.

I guess I don't want to get caught up in trying to convince my wife that my sexual desire for her is somehow more pure or noble than the desire that other men have for her. Because I predict that will lead to endless arguments over whether my desire actually is as noble and pure as I assert. And will justify her refusing sex whenever my behavior falls short of the pure and noble ideal. In other words, I reject the assertion that my sexuality is only acceptable when it is pure and noble and motivated by love rather than lust. Sometimes being horny just means you are horny, and I don't want to be married to someone who asserts that I am never allowed to be horny.

Let us translate this into MB terms. It is possible that my wife interprets all of my lust-driven behaviors as AHs. Perhaps she doesn't want me to stare at her chest when she is lying down in a low cut nightie or stare at her butt when she bends over to put dishes into the dishwasher. I understand she gets to define what are AHs to her. And my job is to eliminate all LBs, including all AHs.

My despair comes from my prediction that there is no POJA "deal" under which I would be enthusiastic about spending lots of time with her meeting her needs for RC and Conversation and Admiration while eliminating all external evidence of my lust for her. At least, not with out the application of copious amounts of sex triggerd by frequent initiation on her part. That is, if she wants me to behave as if I don't care about sex or her body or her body parts, then she has to put me in a position where I am far more sexually satisfied than I have ever been while we have been married. Otherwise, it simply isn't worth it to me to exert the enormous effort required to curb my behavior while in her arousing presence. I would much prefer to simply avoid spending time with her.

That is why I say we are incompatible. For another guy, refraining from the AHs that bother her would require far less mental effort and willpower. And the amount of sexual attention required for him to put forth the effort would be lower as well. So he would be truly enthusastic about completely eliminating the objectification-based AHs she dislikes. WHile spending lots of time with her meeting her needs. I don't see myself ever being willing to spend more time with her while eliminating AHs without her providing a level of sexual involvement that she seems vehemently opposed to sharing.

To make it clear just how "far gone" I am, I will share something from my past. I had one serious girlfriend before Mrs. Hold where marriage was discussed. There were several things that caused me to refrain from proposing (including her infamous declaration "you are not allowed to buy yourself any new computer equipment until you buy me my engagement ring".) One thing is that she had a small chest. That was not "fatal" to my finding her attractive. But I must admit thinking it was relevant to my decision. I knew I would always view her breasts as "less than". And I worried that it wasn't fair to her for me to marry her knowing I would find that part of her "less than". Knowing I myself have body parts that are "less than". And I wouldn't want to be married to someone who viewed any part of my body as less than. Ironic, isn't it? Some would say I got what I deserved for having such judgmental thoughts. But I don't want to pretend that isn't inside me. I view my wife as having great breasts. And not merely because they are attached to her. They would be great breasts attached to anyone else.

I am sure my views will not endear me to everyone here. I understand that many (most?) women will find my views unappealing. That is OK. I am sure there are plenty of women for whom I am not the right guy. I am not sure if there are any women for whom I am the right guy. But I am darn sure that I am NOT the right guy for any woman who feels I shouldn't notice her body (or any particular part), or that I should only find her body (or some part) arousing because it is somehow mystically connected to her soul and personality, and not merely because I am hot for her bod (or that part).

IMO, the reason you are unwilling to put forth effort in meeting her ENs is because she reneged on her commitments to meet your ENs, time and time again.

For you to put more time and effort into meeting her ENs while squelching your EN for SF (and that's what it is - it is neither more nor less pure than any other man's need for SF, and THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT) would be you doing an extended Plan A. Which is NOT advised.

You've done your "Plan A." She didn't reciprocate. You know the next step... and the risks are too great for you right now, you prefer to maintain the marriage while the kids are still at home.

So, I wonder if there are any other options, according to MB? I doubt the MB advice would be for you to keep meeting (or re-start your efforts in meeting) her ENs while denying your own.

In what way shape or form are we in such a "different marriage"? I was always in a marriage in which I wanted to share SF in ways that are meaningful to both of us. She is not and has never been in that marriage. She wants to be in a marriage in which sharing SF together is not meaningful to either of us. There is no shared "you two want". I want SF. She wants to be left alone. So I am leaving her alone.

Except that she only wants to be left alone sexually. Otherwise, she wants interaction. I want a package deal. Interaction and SF. So far, we are not anywhre near being in the same marriage. So I guess you are correct that we are in different marriages. But not in the way you suggested.

Hmmm, that came out harsher than I intended. I guess after all the years of MC and sex therapy, the idea that she is willing to share special and meaningful sex with me is very triggering. To date, after years of conversation, there are NO circumstances in which she has given any indication that she is interested in sharing special and meaningful sex. She says "I need more vacations". But we have gone on vacations, and we hardly ever have any sex. Literally. The number of vacations we have gone on "just the 2 of us" exceeds the total number of times we have had sex while on vacation. On a couple of vacations we had sex once. Most of the time we had sex not at all. So for the sports bettors among you, the "over / under" on how many times we will have sex while on vacation is 0.5. To me, that is pathetic. Just as pathetic as she views my desire for sex.

And according to MB, you should strive for the package deal.

IOW it is not advised to continue meeting ENs without getting your own met.

IOW sacrifice, martyrdom, is NOT building a healthy marriage.

Letting your spouse know of your complaints IS.

Maybe your humor (which I love, BTW, it seems others are offended, so it just depends on your W's tastes) is your way of trying to broach the subject. Does it seem to be working? Does your W seem like she's hearing you, or does she seem offended? You've posted about some excellent times that you were O&H with her. I encourage you to keep that up. I encourage you to let her know that you've already tried doing your part, and you do not intend to be a martyr to meet her ENs.

YMMV.

Oh, and fwiw, over the years I have changed my view of breasts. As we age, smaller perkier breasts have their own advantages. I have come to view them as different, but all great. In my younger days I was more fixated on size. Perhaps in time I will learn to be less fixated on other things.

I remember trying to coax a student to do somethin in class. He was espcially skeptical of music, being a tough, cool 4th grader. But he had a good voice. He said, "Can I come play the drum set at lunch if I sing?" I said yes. So when the group sang a song, he sang. Then, when we started the next song, he sat with his arms folded. I walked up to him and said aftly (while the others were singing), "Why aren't you singing? We had a deal." He said, "I did sing." I said, "One more song, and I'll have you come and play the drums." No, you won't, Mrs. Luri." "Why do you say that?" "My mom always says just one more thing, but she never does what she says she'll do."

That what I thought of reading one of your earlier posts, hold. And I totally get it. When you have been told - essentially - just once more and I'll do..... and then once more never ends, and the other end of the deal never comes.....It's disheartening. And hearing that you need to do it longer or better or more sincerely is infuriating. Because you already know what will happen...nothing.

I know you have read the When to Call It Quits articles, and I know you want to stay until your kids are grown. It's like a catch 22. I am sorry you are in this position.

Please, hold.

There is nothing (NOTHING) wrong with lusting after your wife. there is nothing wrong with loving her physical attributes and being attracted to her simply on the basis of her body.

You ALSO love her (and would love her BETTER if she let you "play with the toys, so to speak) for many other reasons.

As long as a man's desire isn't directed outside the marriage, but he keeps ti reserved for his wife's body, what on earth would be the matter with that?

The ONLY problem is taht you and she are not matched in this way.

She does not enjoy your appreciation and desire for her body--and didn't even enjoy your desire when her body was not the one she had when you first fell in love.

She's not bad, but neither are you!

Dr. harley has Physical Attractiveness as an important EN.

What Telly said.

I'm not sure why you think your EN for SF isn't "pure". It doesn't *have* to be based on... um... you seeing unicorns and rainbows when you think of your W? It can *totally* be a man-thing. It can *totally* be the physical-ness.

Lessee... here's a f'rinstance (although my H *hates* my analogies; maybe this will help, maybe not):

I seem to have a need for someone to take care of paperwork for me. File taxes, pay bills, etc. I wouldn't call it an *E*N, since I don't exactly think it makes me fall in love... it is definitely a *need* though, in the sense that it is good to stay out of jail.

We could hire a personal accountant to do those things, and I could refrain from falling in love with the accountant.

So I can totally appreciate that my H takes care of that paperwork. My appreciation of him doing that isn't all unicorns-and-rainbows, it is more practical. So, in a sense, it isn't "pure" the same way you are claiming your lust for your wife's bodacious bod isn't "pure".

Still, I don't think my benefitting from my H's awesome organizational skills is my "using" him or "objectifying" him.

I used the word "pure" in relation to OH's post about explaining to my wife that my desire for sex is not about objectifying her and is wrapped up in my overall love for her. That I should be use more "hearts and flowers" images in describing my feelings. That is what I mean by the concept of "pure" sexual desire. That it is all part of emotional love. And not wrapped up in body parts and physical sensations.

I could not honestly describe my desire that way. It is partly about romantic love. But it is also partly about body parts and friction and physical sensations and my ego in bringing her pleasure and getting her to consent and all sorts of feelings and emotions that are not about my emotional love for her. I reject the idea (not saying OH feels this way) that lust for my wife is only acceptable if it arises totally and completely out of love. I am not going to try and convince my wife that I only have such "pure" thoughts. Nor am I willing to train myself not to have them (if that is even possible). Even if continuing to have them destroys my marriage.

Had dinner with Mrs. Hold and S15. Back at the office. I said it hurt to hear her call me pathetic. She said "I didn't say YOU were pathetic, I said it was pathetic that you feel better because your friend isn't getting any sex." I said "I'm not happy he is suffering, it just is easier to do without knowing that even he can't make it happen. It makes me feel less of a loser." She said "you keep telling me you are a loser. I never thought you were a loser. But you are starting to convince me. Maybe I am married to a loser."

I think we may be nearing a crisis point. Probably long overdue. Maybe it is not best for me or the kids to keep up this charade.

She probably wants you to stop saying you are a loser.

She probably doesn't want to have to convince you that you are not a loser.

STOP SAYING YOU ARE A LOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!