UGH!!! Hold!! After about a year away from this board I come back to see you in the same spot even the same thread. You only get one chance to live your life there are no do overs. Do you want to spend your one chance of life being so pesimistic that you were unable to enjoy all of the blessings you have been given? (knocking Hold aside his head lol) You have 2 beautiful children who are growing up really fast and you have spent the majority of their childhood feeling sorry for yourself. Not that you are not a good father however your negativity must show to them also. You may not have the perfect wife. Yes she has made mistakes but she has also stood by you. You have a education something many people would die for the chance to get. You live in a nice home, can pay your bills, everyone is healthy in your family. What more do you want?? More sex??? When you get more sex then you over analyze that also. Yes Hold you have been to therapy but you don't stay and do what the therapist want you to. You want it to be a quick magic pill that will take all of your problems away. There is nothing like that. You have to relearn how to be happy. I just wish you could see the good things you have in life and quit wishing for the impossible.

Not relearn. Learn. Never been happy. Well, at least since I was 5. Can't remember farther back than that.


Me too. I wish I could stop wanting what I want and start wanting what I have.

So what are your life plans then? To just keep on complaining about how sad you are and watch life slip on past you? Or are you going to do something about it?

No plans. No goals. Just watching it slip by.

Pretty sad Hold pretty sad. Life has so much to offer but you have to do what you have to do I guess.

As I posted earlier, I promised Mrs. Hold a fancy trip if she reached her goal weight. She is getting close, and we can't afford to do what she wants this summer. So we compromsed that this summer we would take a less fancy trip to Maine and save up to take a fancy trip next summer.

Last night at dinner Mrs. Hold started talking about her plans for Maine. We should go sea kayaking and then do a sailboat cruise. Then the boys should play golf while the girls get facials and have lunch by the pool. She had not discussed any of that with me before raising it with the kids at dinner.

I said "I know this sounds fun, but we can't afford all those excursions. This was supposed to be an inexpensive chance for us to get away from home while we save up for next year's trip. If you keep adding on expensive recreation items, then this trip will have to be INSTEAD of next year."

I fell into an even deeper depression. It was a hot day yesterday and we went out for ice cream after dinner. Mrs. Hold could tell I was out of sorts. She asked what was wrong. I told her "I feel like a failure. I can't afford to send my kids to the activities they want to do this summer. I can't afford to buy S15 a car when he turns 16 next fall. I can't afford to take you on the vacation you want. I feel awful."

She said "yes, I can see how all those one on top of the other could bring you down." I thanked her for noticing. She said "yes, well, I do care."

The problem is that I don't care. Not enough to change my behavior so I can afford more. And not enough to leave her.

Hold, I checked out from my library the book Alcoholics Anonymous. In AA, it's called the Big book. I work a different 12 step program, but this book has really helped me get an even deeper grasp on the 12 steps. I encourage you to take a look, and see if you think a 12 step fellowship could help you, too. It's a very accessible way to feel a part of something bigger than yourself. I think it would support your efforts that you are making to get more involved at Temple. Do you have a mentor there you can call?

Hold, how about instead of a fancy trip or even modest trip to Maine, you and the wife and kids go to a third world country like Haiti for a week.

I want to totally 2x4 your for your comment about feeling like a failure because you can't afford to buy your teenage kid a car.

Because IMHO, actually BUYING your kid a new car when he turns 16 is a total failure in parenting. We are supposed to be raising ADULTS, NOT CHILDREN>>>>> and ADULTS get jobs and buy their OWN vehicles that they can afford. And if they can only afford a $2,000 beater, then they work a bit harder to earn a little bit better car and slowly upgrade, and have along with it a sense of pride and accomplishment.

It seems to me that you are staying in your marriage for the sake of your children. However, with the attitude and chip on your shoulder that you have, you still aren't doing your kids any favors. You may still be causing harm. Don't think you're off the hook just because you stayed married "for their sake." I am the product of a marriage that stayed together primarily because of us kids, and I can tell you there are days when I wish my parents had just been brutally honest with each other and had agreed to go their separate ways instead of pretending that there weren't problems and living in denial. I personally believe that staying for the sake of the kids can be JUST as emotionally damaging as divorce , except no one ever does a study on that.

The reason that you are so depressed, I believe, is because you have an incredibly superficial definition of what it means to be successful. Buying your kids cars? Being able to afford fancy trips and summer activities for the kids? Give me a break, please. No wonder your self-esteem is in the toilet! One way to have healthy self-esteem is to do activities that are WORTHY of esteem. Another way is to know Who you belong to. When I believe that my purpose in life is not simply to live, breathe, procreate, work, and die, but rather, that I am created to play an integral and unique role in the cosmos, that gives me self-esteem. I may not play that role perfectly, but I have a purpose, and it's not to make sure my kids get to live like royalty. It's to teach them, and everyone I know, what love looks like by putting it in action, starting with myself.

I have read off and on. Sorry if this info is posted.

What medical interventions (medication and councel) have you taken?

Thanks for the 2x4. We had a barbecue for the kids at Sunday School yesterday. I organized it. More Dads than I expected showed up. It was a great time. The religious school director was thrilled. So why was it so hard for me to motivate myself to do the work to make it happen? I had to really push myself just to send the e-mail to invite the Dads to help. From the response, there clearly is a desire among the dads to get more involved. So why don't I feel pleased that the event went well?

You are right, we should be more thankful. My son plays on an inner city team and we see how many of the kids live. We dropped one kid off at his grandma's house after practice. There were no cars parked on the street (and the houses do not have garages). My wife asked where everyone was so late at night. I said "honey, in this neighborhood no one can afford a car." We are very blessed. I wish I could feel that way more often.

You are correct. I shouldn't be angry with Mrs. Hold for asking for fancy things. I should be mad at myself for buying into the view that my value as a person is based on my net worth. After all, everyone knows my value as a person is based on how often my wife has sex with me!

Hold, I do love your sense of humor.

I know what you mean about having such a hard time making those emails/phone calls. It helps me to examine myself really deeply when I find myself procrastinating. It yields a tremendous amount of self-awareness if I do this with honesty. Usually there is a reason for my feet-dragging. Accepting it, rather than judging it, has been extremely helpful and life-chainging.

Hold,

I'm going to suggest you doing, again, rather than reasoning. Do it without waiting to change your thinking.

Ask your DW if she would help you to not feel like such a failure. Ask her if she would come up with a plan to repay the debt she incurred before, and to do this by her cutting out something(s) slowly, over one year, so that you guys could really take the cool vacation.

And she could be really honest, and write down the amount of her plan for the small vacation (turned large in her mind), write down a daily "not spend" to go towards it.

Sounds inside out...I get that. Yet, her trimming each week could count as payment...and if she sees where she can't come close in doing so for 52 weeks (if she's only saving $50), then she can do part time work to accelerate it.

And if she chooses not to do the part-time or full-time work to pay back that debt, then you guys don't go on the cool vacation next year until she does.

Her way of helping you, helping herself...and you asking and letting go the response.

It won't be about you. Won't mean she doesn't want you to feel like a failure. Won't mean she doesn't care...means she has her own issues...and you love her enough to stop standing in the way of her own redemption.

Love her more, 'k?

You can do this.

LA

I second everything LA said


Like that rocks in the river thing, I don't think our rewards for the changes we make in our life accumulate overnight, but in time and consistency. I think you can do for your group what you may not be willing today to do for yourself. Way to Go, Hold, keep it up! How about an asking someone at Temple to be an accountability mentor for you? I think if nothing else, it can help you reframe the time you do spend with your family and in your community, help you see the positive results, connect more with your successes than in the shortcomings.

I need to get my head straight. Mrs. Hold has been trying to show she cares. She complimented me today on something where her natural reaction would have been to chastise me for taking on scut work. She could tell I wanted to see it as a "win" so she praised me for it despite her reservations.

I do listen to people here and try to see glimmers of hope even when I don't feel very hopeful.

Had a nice weekend. No sex but Mrs. Hold was pleasant. During a party Saturday night mostly for kids the DJ said "they just opened the ice cream table, so the kids are busy. This next song is a slow dance for the couples in love." I immediately put down my ice cream (yes, I was 3rd in line ahead of all the kids) and danced with Mrs. Hold. At the end of the song, the DJ said "and now here is another slow dance. I want all the married couples out here on the dance floor." We stayed out there.

We were curious if the DJ had done it in reverse order (married dance followed by in love dance), would any of the couples have left the dance floor? Or at least how many sets of wierd looks between married couples asking each other "do we stay out here for this"?

Oh, and kudos to Mrs. Hold for reaching her goal weight at Weight Watchers. She is down 56 pounds from when she started the contest in January 2009. It is amazing. Even with the party Saturday night and Mother's Day brunch she lost a pound this past week.

Interesting incident this morning. We were talking about Obama's nomination to the Supreme Court. I said "another Ivy League educated lawyer. Could have picked someone with a slightly different background." Mrs. Hold said "that is what we want at the Supreme Court. Big brained smarty pants people."

I smiled and with a twinkle in my eye asked "like anyone you know?" She frowned and said "yes, I am surrounded by them here. I am stuck with three of them. How did that happen?"

I leaned toward her still smiling. "Yes, I am sure it is terrible being surrounded by me and the kids." I leaned in slowly and aimed my nose to nuzzle with her neck. I knew not to try and kiss her because I had not yet brushed my teeth. I knew to lean in slowly to not startle her.

She shoved my head away from her quite violently with both of her hands. Not playfully. Not leaving open that I could continue to try and kiss her. But with a disgusted look on her face and hard enough that I almost fell off the bed.

I looked at her quizzically and asked in what I hope was a neutral tone "can you help me to interpret that gesture as something other than rejection? Because it felt like rejection to me." She started giggling nervously and said "you mean a two handed shove to the face?" I replied "yes, I just wanted to point it out so we are clear. Occassionally you ask me why I feel rejected so I wanted to point out that this is an example of you rejecting me." She said something like "yes, well, I guess most people would interpret shoving your head away as rejection."

I asked if she would do that to the kids. If they were discussing whether they got 3 or 4 or 5 A+ grades on their report card. If one of them leaned in for a hug. Could she imagine herself shoving them away with both hands? She said no and kept giggling like it was some kind of joke.

I too was laughing a nervous laugh. I didn't want to make too much of this. It was funny that I caught her in a "gotcha" moment. She was laughing and squirming in a "OK, you got me, I can't talk my way out of this one" moment. But despite the laughing, it still hurt.

I hope she does not feel like she doesn't fit into our family. I tell her all the time that she is smart. That she graduated from a private university. That she got promoted to a position without graduate school that typically requires an MBA. That she has common sense and street smarts that some of us brainiac people don't have.

I should explore with her whether sometimes she is intimidated by me and the kids.

Hold, sounds to me like she's tired of you rubbing your brainiac ways in her face. What you said about her being surrounded by you and the kids clearly communicated that you think she's the dumbest person in the family.

And you wonder why she rejects you? Really?

She only wishes I rub my brainiac ways in her face. I am the most anti-intellectual person she knows. She thought she was going to marry a sophisticated cultured person. I spend my free time playing video games. She was the one who told me during our courtship that "smart is sexy and that she wanted to marry a brainiac." She frequently complains that I don't give myself credit for being smart and successful. I prefer not to make an issue of where I went to law school, because I feel embarrassed. She says she wishes I would trumpet it. She has told me she likes it when I act proud of my intellect, instead of downplaying it.

But maybe that is all an act. Certainly it was during courtship. Years later I found out that while we were dating, she used fishing analogies to describe our relationship. "He is on the hook." "I am reeling him in but I haven't landed him yet." "I am about to hit him with the gaff and drag him onto the boat." Maybe all her statements about liking my braininess were BS designed to lure me in. She has continued to say them while we are married. But maybe they are rote recitations or maybe she is trying to convince herself she truly believes it.

And please note that SHE is the one who said she is surrounded by them. She said she has three of them here, in a tone that made it seem like a bad thing. I am the one who said I wish Obama had NOT nominated an Ivy League lawyer to the Court. I asid I wish he had named someone who might have a different viewpoint. She is the one who said she thinks braininess SHOULD be the primary consideration.

I understand that without saying the words, I deliver the message "you are not enough" whenever I complain about the lack of sex. So I make darn sure to compliment her constantly in every way about her good qualities. Including that I think she is smart. Just as she knows she sends the message that I am inadequate every day by complaining about things we cannot afford. Lately she has been trying to compliment me more frequently to make up for that. And one thing she compliments me on is my braininess. It must be something she admires, because she says she is trying to explain to me why she stays. She says she stays because I am brainy. Go figure!

You baited her into it, Hold, with your fishing (ha!) for a compliment ("Like anyone you know?").

You blew a fantastic chance for a great intellectual conversation on the merits that should be considered when selecting nominees for Supreme Court--and increased intimacy with your W--by showing YET AGAIN that you're only after an ego-stroking.

That gets old, Hold.