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RareMamaJewel #2431646 10/01/10 11:30 PM
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In this economy, is there such a thing as "marriage-family friendly employment"?

Are you in an area where one is able to pick and choose from a multitude of job offers that will meet every need/requirement without relocation or a major change in pay?



BS married 18 years in addition to 8 years dating since HS
'04 discovered his other life w/multiple A's
'05 divorced
2 wonderful girls, 19 and 17
Phil. 4:13

wannatry #2431660 10/02/10 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by wannatry
Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
This is all speculation on my part. But if he thinks divorce means freedom, then he is not enjoying being married. This means that needs are not being met and lovebusting is going on. Basically he is not happy with his spouse if he thinks D means freedom.

More speculation...
Using MB as appeasement was mentioned. This would seem to implty that he feels badgered or worn down by constant demands or having to live in what he considers unrealistic expectations of a spouse but is afraid to say something because of how CWMI will react.


He was desperate to find a different job because the job conflict was a constant source of fighting. So he found one, asked a few questions that made it seem like everything was 100% spouse friendly and travel wasn�t an issue, and just ran with it at face value. Or they indicated that a little travel would happen and occasionally a black tie happening would pop up that was employees only. He figured that he could at least get some appeasement for the time being and would put up with her being mad later. It�s like the whole �better to ask for forgiveness than permission.�
Again, this is all just a guess.
CWMI, I�d say that he�s not exactly happy in the marriage either but perhaps he�s a conflict avoider. So now he goes for the gusto and just puts up a wall.

You said he did mention feeling manipulated by SH into getting what you want. Maybe he really does feel that way. Maybe he feels like he has to bend to your desires and forego what he wants as in the saying �if mom aint happy, aint no one happy�. Maybe you should ask him why he feels manipulated by MB.

Whether any or all of this is ridiculous or not, he isn�t honest with his feelings for a reason. Maybe this is worth investigating.

Really? For a lot of men (and women, for that matter) D IS freedom. It is freedom by definition. Some people would prefer never having to negotiate or answer to anyone than be happily married. Furthermore, many people regret getting divorced when they realize that being free and single isn't all it's cracked up to be and they wish they hadn't gotten divorced. But they def. had much more "freedom". That isn't to say that CWMI's H doesn't feel worn down or badgered. He probably does. He doesn't want to put up with it anymore. CWMI had two options: leave or try to get her H to put their marriage first. He doesn't want to, so any attempt on her part is badgering. Or maybe she resorts to what he perceives as LBs to get what she wants. Since he wasn't O & H that really absolves her of a lot of guilt in my opinion...

If you are suggesting the CWMI love busted in reaction to finding out that her H lied about something that is at the core of their marriage troubles and did not put their marriage first, I think she might agree. But that doesn't change the fact that even after 6 months of MB counseling he still isn't putting his marriage first. CWMI doesn't have to be perfect in order for her husband to put the marriage first. He feels prodded...I get the vibe that he always feels prodded and is okay going along with whatever. He didn't want to rock the boat during the job interview process and he doesn't want to rock the boat with his employer. I bet he doesn't want to rock the boat with CWMI, either, but she isn't giving him a choice. Its up to her what she is willing to put up with.

KT, your impressions are probably somewhat accurate other than the freedom thing...and you probably know that situation better than I do...so...what do you suggest she do? Your post seemed like you were just stating that this was probably her fault...which doesn't seem helpful or maybe what you intended?

I�m not saying anything other than a few observations based on what CWMI has typed. I don�t know a lot of guys or girls that would rather be divorced than work on issues.

I�m not commenting on CWMI�s reaction to her husband and his job issue. I�m talking in general. CWMI�s husband has an ongoing issue with hiding the truth or delaying the truth. It has been theorized that because of the way CWMI interacts with her husband that he does not feel safe in being honest with her (as crazy as that sounds) because of how she�ll react to him.
And I would never say that this is CWMI�s fault.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

kilted_thrower #2431666 10/02/10 06:50 AM
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CWMI, I have IB issues with my H as well so I can understand how you feel about wanting your H to put his marriage and family first. I also have the same situation that H and I don't talk about much and I am sure that much of it has to do with my reactions (overreactions) in the past. I am not absolving my H from his half of the talking about issues problem because in a vacuum the things that have happened in the past would not have happened. It does take two. You can work on your reactions to things and not make the same mistakes in the future but it is in your husbands hands whether he wants to respond to the new way you are or if he wants to continue to live based upon what has happened in the past.

My H and I are trying to counsel with Steve H. So far, I am 'showing up' and 'doing the homework (HW)' and H, except one time, has had things come up. I believe, as does Steve H that my H also thinks that freedom is superior to a happy marriage. Since he can't see past our current situation to a different way of being together, H sees that it is easier to just leave. Freedom looks very good compared to the hard work of having a good marriage, especially when you realize that you may have to make some choices that involve changing some things about yourself and how you behave for the good of the marriage. My H becomes extremely resentful and about anything that he sees as unfair and unfortunately, this seems to be most things.

Anyway, too much about my situation but you suggested to me that I should also tell my H he will get full custody if he divorces me. After reading here and hearing other's input, I can see how that may have some advantages. Especially financial ones as I have worked at a lower level for many years now and sacrificed retirement to be more available for my family. (H is of course, resentful of this underemployment too even though he agreed to it.)

Steve H keeps telling me I need to try to get my H onboard with the idea that the goal is to create the best possible situation for raising our children, and that is a marriage where both parents are deeply in love with other. H keeps saying that kids from divorced families are ok as he is one and he is fine. Steve H says this is changing the question from, "What is best" to "Will the kids be ok" and my H does this very well and I have to keep steering him back.

Anyway, maybe you need to focus on the right question too, whatever that question is and perhaps, Steve H could guide you again. Your H is being selfish and putting himself first but maybe he can't see past today to the future. He is too stuck in the past. This is where my H and I are today; where I see possibility and he sees the easy way out and freedom from the past but without a clear future in mind. You can run to something new, it will be easier but creating a loving relationship with the other parent of your children will always be the best possible solution. Hang in there and keep fighting for the best outcome, not just an ok outcome.

Last edited by lostlovinfeeling; 10/02/10 08:35 AM.
lostlovinfeeling #2431674 10/02/10 08:58 AM
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cwmi, have you two seen the movie Fireproof yet?


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
NewEveryDay #2431679 10/02/10 09:21 AM
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Yes, we've seen Fireproof.

Lost, I don't even know what the right question is. What is best is my goal, but right now the only question I can think of is "How could you do this again? How could you take something that was going so well and was so beautiful and destroy it so swiftly?"

It's really taking up a lot of headspace today--he left two hours early this morning and I have no idea when he'll be home. He would only say he'll try to head home by five. I went all Yoda on him--do or do not, there is no TRY, lol.

Thing is, he would never tolerate that from me. A few years ago I went to an evening event without him (he was invited to go, just didn't want to) and told him I would leave there at 10. He called me several times, to say, "What cha doin? When you coming home? Will you bring me milk? Who all is there? Who are you talking to? Did you meet so-and-so?" I can't imagine what he would have called to say if I'd left without his blessing and told him I didn't know when I'd be home.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
HerPapaBear #2431683 10/02/10 09:30 AM
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KT, if he would actually participate in POJA, that would clear up any feeling of manipulation. Honestly, I think it was just a ruse, a dirty word he threw around to divert attention from his actions. He does that a lot when he's called on something he's done against his word--tries to flip it back on me with stuff like manipulating, controlling, and chemically imbalanced (we know a couple where the W is actually imbalanced, so that's his new thing to throw at me--if I'm upset about something, it must be a chemical imbalance in my brain because a NORMAL person would not be upset about being lied to, duh).


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
upandrunning #2431685 10/02/10 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by upandrunning
In this economy, is there such a thing as "marriage-family friendly employment"?

Are you in an area where one is able to pick and choose from a multitude of job offers that will meet every need/requirement without relocation or a major change in pay?

Yes and yes, but you've diverged from the issue. He had a good-paying secure job before. There was no benefit to him taking this new one if it wasn't going to solve the issue. He wasn't looking for a job because he needed one, he was looking for a job to resolve these issues.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2431689 10/02/10 09:46 AM
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It really sounds like you are at the end of your rope with your H. What's your plan? If what you say about how he acts when you go out without him is true...how could he tolerate plan B? And, how would you know when to take him back if he isn't honest about stuff? Would he just agree to all your conditions and then later tell you he was manipulated?

Ugh, this sucks for you!

upandrunning #2431692 10/02/10 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by upandrunning
In this economy, is there such a thing as "marriage-family friendly employment"? Yep, and it's up to spouses to find it. Not every job out there requires traveling, party scenarios, etc. In fact, several positions today allow an employee to even work from home as part of the job description. Like I said, it's up to an individual to find that type of position (not implying that it's easy).

Are you in an area where one is able to pick and choose from a multitude of job offers that will meet every need/requirement without relocation or a major change in pay?
Actually, I'm in an area with one of the highest unemployment rates in the state. While there isn't a lot to pick and choose from, there is enough that a skilled person can find work that doesn't have them away working so far away that they can't be home for their families. To be fair though, many companies require that employees travel for a set time period in order to attend training. This seems to be the business trend right now.

Problem is, people don't usually want to look at their realities and do what's best for their given situation, they often prefer to do what's feels best for them. I'm not stating this as judgement, because for much of my adult life, I had done this too.

On a side note, I do believe that there are positions that are a better fit for couples-families. I also believe that corporations can be M-F friendly. Corporations that refuse to tolerate harassment and affairs are, for the most part, more supportive of M and families. Companies that turn a blind eye to work place affairs and have no problem with it's employees using a club or bar scene to conduct business generally are not. I base these beliefs on observations and experiences over the years.


Live, love, and laugh because the best is yet to come!
wannatry #2431694 10/02/10 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by wannatry
It really sounds like you are at the end of your rope with your H. What's your plan? If what you say about how he acts when you go out without him is true...how could he tolerate plan B? And, how would you know when to take him back if he isn't honest about stuff? Would he just agree to all your conditions and then later tell you he was manipulated?

Ugh, this sucks for you!

Ugh is right! Just based on history, I would say you are right--he would agree to Plan B conditions and then accuse me of manipulating and controlling him.



Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2431696 10/02/10 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by wannatry
It really sounds like you are at the end of your rope with your H. What's your plan? If what you say about how he acts when you go out without him is true...how could he tolerate plan B? And, how would you know when to take him back if he isn't honest about stuff? Would he just agree to all your conditions and then later tell you he was manipulated?

Ugh, this sucks for you!

Ugh is right! Just based on history, I would say you are right--he would agree to Plan B conditions and then accuse me of manipulating and controlling him.

I realize that my post wasn't very encouraging or helpful frown

If talking to Steve was one of the conditions...

I guess if you are at the end of your rope, it can only go up from here smile

I am sorry you are going through this.

CWMI #2431711 10/02/10 11:46 AM
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[quote=CWMI]Yes, we've seen Fireproof.

Lost, I don't even know what the right question is. What is best is my goal, but right now the only question I can think of is "How could you do this again? How could you take something that was going so well and was so beautiful and destroy it so swiftly?"

I've dealt with the same issues with my husband although my circumstances were different. You might get angry when I say this, but the problem is that you are "there". This was my problem. I was "present" in the home, in the M. I was the one who was angry and upset from the lack of honest POJA. I turned myself inside out trying to get my husband to see his "issue". The only "issue" he saw was that I had the problem with "it" and "it" wasn't so bad that I was S or D.

Sad isn't it?

You have a similar situation with your husband. He doesn't see his dishonesty as a problem. You are the one that is upset about it, so you're the one with a "problem". He's basically telling you to deal with it or D. He's not changing, because it's not a problem for him.

Honestly, I don't think he believes that you will S or D. You made a "threat" when you told him he would have custody and he probably doesn't see you as being serious enough to follow through. He likely thinks you are being dramatic and manipulative.


It's really taking up a lot of headspace today--he left two hours early this morning and I have no idea when he'll be home. He would only say he'll try to head home by five. I went all Yoda on him--do or do not, there is no TRY, lol.

I have a feeling this is part of your dilemma. You tell him he's going to be a single dad. He says he'll see the kids on Sunday. He leaves 2 hours early and you have no idea when he'll be home. Then you go yoda on him. Bad, bad, bad. To him, going all Yoda was you just attempting to vent on him. You've got to quit that approach. It's only weakening you in his eyes and it's killing any respect he might have for you. It's a total love buster and it closes the love bank. He's seeing you as a push over. You gripe and complain, he listens for a few moments, then goes on his own way, leaving you to stew in your juices. You've got to stop this cycle of disrespect...toward him and toward yourself.

Why did you even go Yoda?
If you're not ready to S, prepared to turn and walk out the door and leave him and the kids there at the house, then don't say anything. Because S comes before D. When you S, he'll have the kids also. I doubt you intend to have the children outside of the courtroom so they can leave with him once D is granted.

Unless you are truly willing to D and give him full custody, don't say that you are.

You're going to have to be willing to do what you say you're going to do. State your boundaries and enforce your position.

Part of your problem is that you don't have healthy boundaries in dealing with his sense of entitlement. Now it's come to this.


Thing is, he would never tolerate that from me. A few years ago I went to an evening event without him (he was invited to go, just didn't want to) and told him I would leave there at 10. He called me several times, to say, "What cha doin? When you coming home? Will you bring me milk? Who all is there? Who are you talking to? Did you meet so-and-so?" I can't imagine what he would have called to say if I'd left without his blessing and told him I didn't know when I'd be home.

Tolerate is the key word here. He sets the tone and you follow along. Is this what you want in your M? If not, you might very well have to be willing to D and move on. If this is his real personality, then he isn't likely going to change. He sounds very selfish to me.

However, with lack of healthy boundaries and taking things to the extreme, it could be that you both feel the other is bluffing. I'm not sure which it is from reading your posts.




Live, love, and laugh because the best is yet to come!
RareMamaJewel #2431717 10/02/10 12:13 PM
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CWMI,

Reading further, I assume that it's selfishness on your husband's part, rather than a boundary issue.

Since there was 6 mos of counseling with SH, he should be getting it...he's not and that raises a flag that maybe he has some type of personality disorder. I know we don't like to use that here at MB, but some spouses just don't have it in them to N, POJA, O and H. They never will.

If he is just that selfish and has that "if you don't like it, too bad" attitude with everyone, then you might want to consider moving on with your children. Letting him have full custody won't change anything and will only leave your kids vulnerable to him. He won't emotionally connect with them nor even try to meet their emotional needs.

If he's being stubborn, that's one thing. But if constantly shifting blame, making excuses, and refusing to take ownership of his choices is how he consistently operates, then you will definitely want to consider moving on without him. And take the children with you, further minimizing his ability to destroy them with his selfishness.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this, CWMI


Live, love, and laugh because the best is yet to come!
RareMamaJewel #2431731 10/02/10 01:16 PM
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I have long suspected NPD. SH suggested that my H get evaluated for OCD.

I asked him if he ever felt that he was responsible for any of his problems, and he said nope, couldn't think of a single time where his action (or inaction) led to a problem. Not even this here. He argues that if I would just accept parties and travel as a part of life, there wouldn't be a problem! So it was MY ACTION that created this situation, to him.

That's so crazy, I don't even know what to do with it.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2431734 10/02/10 02:02 PM
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Yikes, CWMI, if SH recommended your H get evaluated that indicates there is a problem bigger than what MB can handle.




Live, love, and laugh because the best is yet to come!
RareMamaJewel #2431738 10/02/10 02:42 PM
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That's not encouraging. frown

But I did talk to him a few minutes ago and he is leaving at five sharp, so that's a bit of relief. He would have been at work until then anyway if they hadn't sent him to this function. He's done a few of these here, where he will go during regular hours to an outside event as a rep for the company, but those are mid-week closed functions, like they hosted an invitation-only driving event at a small local airport--a place where prospective buyers could open up the car. I don't have an issue with that stuff, and I was invited to come hang out with him at the airport if I wanted to--I didn't, I had school.

I would have loved to gone where he is today, though. The whole "You are not welcome here and if you showed up I would not speak to you anyway" really hurts. Deep.

But I do give him props for nailing down an end-time for today. That helps. He *said* he would talk to his boss on Monday and tell him that he won't do any more of these where he has to tell his wife that she is unwelcome, and travel is a no.

They hold these training things and rather than like the last place where everyone was required to go, this place sends one representative who then 'shares' the information with the rest of the staff. My H said that his boss told him back at the interview that either boss man or or one of the other guys (a certain specific one) goes. It appears that he now wants to make my H the 'certain specific one' who goes, and that's not the deal H and I have. So, it will be easy enough to select one of the others to go, to either the training or the local events, perhaps one of the guys who is married to someone who doesn't have a problem with it!

I know he wants my support for his work. I want to give it to him, he is fantastic at his job. He's only been there for four months, and he's top dog already. It makes it impossible to support him when he HURTS me with it, though. I don't think he understands that concept. I've tried explaining it a hundred ways, he does not think it is valid. He easily accepts that the family should serve the job, which is just so wrong.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2431743 10/02/10 03:29 PM
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cwmi, I'm glad you guys saw that movie. For me it gave me some hope that helped me keep trying at a time I was feeling hopeless. Best wishes with this adventure, you know the pattern, you both puff up, and then by the next day y'all have kissed and made up. I know you feel duped, and that's got to feel awful, but you know not that much is different than last week; the only difference is that now you have the information you need to make informed decisions.


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
NewEveryDay #2431745 10/02/10 04:07 PM
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This job was supposed to address the pattern you speak of, Ned. If he follows through with what he said he would do, and takes care of it to eliminate it from our lives like he'd said he was doing from the start, we'll be okay, but we still have the little problem of his emotional abuse. It shouldn't take days and AFTER an event to handle stuff that was already supposedly handled.

We haven't had any issues for months until this. Until this, he was willing to negotiate if something came up that we had different opinions on--negotiate all the way until we were both happy. I don't understand why he stopped that and started back with his self-serving BS. Opportunity? I dunno.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2431753 10/02/10 05:04 PM
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I understand that this job looked on the outside as if it was going to address this problem. I get it that resolving these issues will become a pattern when you get there. And I understand that these issues don't pop up but just this one time the last 6 months.

Do you think maybe this disconnect is coming from still being in State of Conflict? Are you two still getting 20+ hours UA time? 15 hours FC time? I don't know what the missing link is, do you have a clue?


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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