Am I not standing up for myself by placing the life insurance policy into trust? My wife accused me of lying to her. I objected to that description. I told her about the trust before I signed it. I may have been a little vague about my reasons. But I was trying to avoid shoving her face in my doubts about her. When pressed, I readily admitted that I do not trust her and would not agree to name her personally as the beneficiary. She has raised the issue several times since then, often very emotionally, and I have remained calm and firm. What more can I do?

Yes. I am glad you are taking that step. There are a few other things you may want to do:

1. Quit giving her a weekly allowance
2. Make her accountable for the money she stole
3. Take away all credit cards (again)...
4. Fire the housekeeper
5. Write out how her overspending has hurt you
6. Write out the monetary figures showing just how she put you both in the poorhouse.
7. Show her how she put her own kids in the poorhouse.
8. Some other assertive things....________

Somehow you have not clearly conveyed, with dollar and cents examples, EXACTLY HOW SHE RUINED YOU AND THE KIDS FINANCIALLY. You need to show her this.

She still does not see it. That is why she is still demanding the life insurance money, because she does not see how SHE ruined you guys financially. you need to show her until she sees it.

I think if you put her on your life insurance, she would arrange a hit just to get that money...early.

Hold, I applaud you for this change. I also wish I could give you a high five for telling her if she didn't like it she can go find someone that can support her.

I take back what I said about not standing up for yourself. Keep at it.

Hold, I think your decision-making here is sound. If her dad keeps hounding you it might be worth taking him out for coffee and explaining a small amount of the situation to him.

Something like "Dad-in-law, I have tried to keep you out of any discussion regarding finance at your request. However, I'd like you to understand why I am doing this. My primary goal is to make sure your grandkids have a safe and secure future. HoldsWife has shown over the years that she isn't capable of sticking to a budget and has run up more debts than I care to elaborate.

I have one life insurance policy which should see her well-supported in case I die, and the other policy is to do the same for the kids.

Thanks for showing an interest. So, how about them [fill in football team here]."

Had a chat with FIL last night. Called him to discuss a DIY project we had worked on together 2 weeks ago and then moved on to the insurance. Needless to say, Mrs. Hold had not told him the full history of her overspending. She had lead him to believe it was a one time thing that ended when we moved here 10 years ago. He was surprised to hear it continues to this day. He sympathized with me for having to deal with it all these years and was unhappy that his daughter mislead him. After I told him the whole story, he changed his tune on the life insurance and now supports my idea of putting the last policy into trust. So it went as well as I could have hoped.

Discussed the call with Mrs. Hold. I had told her lunch time I planned to call him, and she did not object. However, she was very negative last night. She said "this will not be good". I told her I was relieved that her parents were now aware of the full picture, so I do not have to hide and pretend when we talk to them. She said "glad you are happy, this stinks for me". I explained that I wasn't happy, merely relieved. I asked her if she disagreed with my description of history. She said "no, you are not making it up, that is what happened."

I told her to tell her father she is taking classes and then will get a job so she is addressing this going forward. We shall see how it works itself out. I would not have discussed this with him except that he kept egging her on to fight with me and I was sure he did not have the full picture. I am pleased how well he received the message. I expected to get "shot" as the messenger. Instead, FIL thanked me. Wierd.

holding,
Wow!!! I commend you for having the guts to stay in this M. Truly amazing! I read up to page 70 of your thread over several days. I finally had to skip to the end to see if your M had somehow recovered and became a happy & healthy union for you 2.

Guess not.

I soooooooooo wish you could take the steps to become a happy person. No one deserves to be miserable for so long. Change is not death.

You asked:
"Am I not standing up for myself by placing the life insurance policy into trust?"

Yes, you are. I think you did not go far enough. I would leave your entire estate in trust. Did your W grow up poor? I do not understand the obcession to acquire things or to try and impress people when they come over for dinner. I thought the purpose of entertaining was to enjoy each other's company, not to try and 1 up each other on who has the most expensive plateware. Sheesh!

I think your W is the most ungrateful person on Earth. How dare she sit around, not work, and complain that she does not feel she is living well enough. Unbelieveable.

I agree w/ the following from Bubbles:
"1. Quit giving her a weekly allowance
2. Make her accountable for the money she stole
3. Take away all credit cards (again)...
4. Fire the housekeeper
5. Write out how her overspending has hurt you
6. Write out the monetary figures showing just how she put you both in the poorhouse.
7. Show her how she put her own kids in the poorhouse.
8. Some other assertive things....________"

Why does she even need a housekeeper???

Holding, life is too short to be so unhappy. You have a career I'd kill for. I hope 1 day to be an attorney also. I actually got accepted into Mercer a few years back. I did well on LSAT. I have done all the paperwork on many divorces, child support, and Contempt petitions. Once my DDs are out of the house I plan to pursue law school.

Has Mrs. Holding kept the weight off?

Your thread just saddens me. I wish there was a way I could come through the pc screen and shake you up so you would want more for yourself and your family.

Best wishes,
stable

Great job talking with FIL. AndI'm proud of you for putting that one policy in trust for the kids.Good job.

Yes, setting up the insurance this way, and telling her father the truth...are both huge steps in the right direction!

"I am simply astonished that she would try to justify her overspending. I can understand explaining why it happened. How she felt at the time. But not asserting that it was OK and I should stop viewing it as excessive or inappropriate. It is one thing to expect that after all this time I wuold forgive her. But it is another to assert that I don't need to forgive her because she didn't do anything wrong."

And this is exactly why you need move forward with the trust.

I'll bet this issue isn't over for Mrs. H. I expect her to keep after you and this will get uglier than it already is. Has she been diagnosed as a narcissistic personality? I wonder if this will be a big divide that can't be mended.

telly Your quote:

"Wow, this is rich.

I can only imagine the reaction if a man had reached over, jiggled his wife's private parts (ANY OF THEM) saying, "do you feel like anything?"

was very much on point. That was exactly what I thought when I read that.

Congrats to Mrs. Hold for getting the job at WW!:)

bubbles,
I also like your style of writing.

And this:
"Yes, it is amazing how well I can swim now that I have given up breathing air!!!"

was too funny:) Not to dismiss the issue behind your statement as being funny though.

holding,
I think your W has shown some effort lately though. At least she is willing, but not exactly enthusiastic. I am sending positive vibes to you both.

Best wishes!

Hold,

Adding huge kudos for your honesty and bravery with FIL...so much better than telling him to shove it. His reaction wasn't weird at all, IMO.

I caught you saying that she's still overspending to this day.

Is that correct?

Why not first address the past: When she brings it up again, why not choose honesty with W? "You were financially unfaithful to this marriage. You lied to me, you still justify, and you haven't demonstrated remorse. You betrayed our marriage and my trust. It's not okay and it won't be okay until you stop doing it."

The fiscal infidelity continues...and consider you just exposed to her father...and she did say you were honest and that is what happened.

Give her the map to recovery...what you need exactly from her for your forgiveness. Step by step. First is owning what she did, why she did it, and how and why she won't do it again. Second, going to school with the goal of entering the workforce again and paying back the total amount of the fiscal infidelity.

If she takes your steps, you could open a separate savings account, which only has money she saved from the budget right now, going in, each month, so she can see her progress.

She is capable...she can choose to do this...you know she's determined...look at the weight loss...tell her you don't doubt her ability, 'k? You know it's a choice she can make. You do believe in her.

It's no less what as parents you require of your kids if they had stolen that money from you, lying and hiding and continuing. You're not her parent...tell her you know she's chosen not to amend her bad choices all these years. And that continuing them, even in small ways, will no longer be acceptable to you.

Be sure on your policy for her, to reduce it by the amount of debt she ran up without consulting you. Tell her as the savings grows (and she can't be on that account), that in a year, you'll increase the policy for her by that much.

When she does work, one of the final steps will be to set her direct deposit to that same savings account. Still, without her being a signer on it.

Please do this as an act of love for your marriage. Crippling to not do it...continues the harm...for her and for you and for the marriage.

When she says this isn't the status she wants, tell her you know she can obtain that status, you believe in her. You do not fail her at FS...don't confuse financial infidelity with FS, 'k?

She robbed you of your monetary choices, didn't let you in on decisions, and you don't have to speak fogspeak and buy into her justifications. Your job is to point them out...when she rewrites history, you state you know she knew she was cheating.

Calmly...and when you can't speak calmly, take a break.

LA

Hold...

So glad you discussed the situation with her dad. No parent really wants to hear that their child (adult or not) has issues, but I think now he will be able to see the whole picture and adjust his answers to her in a way that reflects the truth.

I think by disclosing to him, he will be in a better position to be a friend to the marriage, to be supportive of you both. Let's hope that's how it will be.

Your wife has no choice now but to inner reflect. She has to own a little shame here, and that is part of the process, I think. It's not the sort of thing you can skip over and ignore. Accountability is part of the recovery, and parents are good at making sure that is seen through - even when their kids are adults. We can hope.

Hello Hold,

I've been gone for a couple months but pleased to see you and Mrs Hold are making progress. Even if it feels like one step forward, two steps back, from my perspective it's progress.

take care,

DTC

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

We do not have, and I do not believe we will ever have, the relationship that either of us wanted when we got married. On the other hand, we have a better relationship than we had for many years. If it stays this way, I can imagine being content to stay with her after the kids leave. That is not something I would have said for much of the past 10 years.

Vibressa, thanks, this is so well stated.

WOW Hold, when I first started lurking on this site you would have NEVER said this. I wonder what you'll be saying in 2 more years ;-)

We have gotten our marriage to a much better place.

I still have major problems at work. Years of misguided effort coming home to roost. But I can focus on that better, now that things at home have improved.

Hold,

You might be able to take some small comfort in the fact that many many people are having a hard time with work right now. Even those that have devoted their attention unfailingly to their work are facing difficulties and may find their positions in jeapordy.

The falling economy is a real leveler.

I asked Mrs. Hold if we could have sex this morning. She turned me down. She asked if we could cuddle instead. I said sure. She said she likes to cuddle, but she fears to ask for it. She thinks I will get too frustrated if we "just" cuddle. I told her not to worry about that, I like to cuddle and I would like to be asked. She said "you are beyond being frustrated, aren't you?" I agreed. We cuddled. It was pleasant. I am trying to see this as a good thing. That we know each other well. Even if it has been weeks and my needs go unmet.