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NewEveryDay #2437718 10/25/10 07:54 AM
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CWMI:

You stated this:

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I have come home many, many times to discover that he had bought a car without discussing it.

How many times, really?

Once, twice, Three Times? I mean, how many cars has your family owned since you have been married? I ask because I want to caution about exaggeration in these matters. One time does not a pattern make. "You do it all the time!" and "Always!" are lovebusters...

KT mentioned something about the "list of wrongs" (my term) that a woman can store up. My BW certainly can come up with very specific, and detailed times that I have done something WRONG. And just like your husband, I can NOT detail the lovebusters and DJ's that come my way in quite the same manner. And I am not saying that talking to your sister equates to buying a car.

I am saying that ALL LoveBusters are bad. A number 10 LB'er hurts just like a #1 LB'er, regardless if your can cite time and place three years later.

Quit asking him for specifics. Start discussing lovebusters in general. And start trying to learn were you push his buttons, much like he pushes yours.

He might feel that he is a very successful person in the workplace, and a loser at home. And your description of his FOO and circumstances would seem to support my take on how he might see himself. I have four siblings, and a very poor background, so I can relate.

My BW never thought I doing all that well at this work thing either.....

So you gotta put away the scorekeeping lists. Your always going to win this one. And what does it do to move the convo forward? He shuts down, and you don't understand why he won't talk to you about his problems.....

As NED stated, it might be time for a little refresher with SH.

It can get better. Ours did. Yours can.

LG

lousygolfer #2437739 10/25/10 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by lousygolfer
Once, twice, Three Times? I mean, how many cars has your family owned since you have been married? I ask because I want to caution about exaggeration in these matters. One time does not a pattern make. "You do it all the time!" and "Always!" are lovebusters...

I like this. I'm not sure if you are quilty of this, CWMI. But I do know that my wife used to be quite often. And from witnessing numerous arguments between friends and family, it's not uncommon to hear "You always..." or some variant of it.

Quote
KT mentioned something about the "list of wrongs" (my term) that a woman can store up. My BW certainly can come up with very specific, and detailed times that I have done something WRONG. And just like your husband, I can NOT detail the lovebusters and DJ's that come my way in quite the same manner. And I am not saying that talking to your sister equates to buying a car.




This sounds familiar what used to go on in my marriage. And this sounds familiar in much the way men and women operate. A lot of husbands would say, �I�m not sure what happened�she just dropped a bunch of complaints on me from out of nowhere. � And then the husband would say something like, �Well, you�ve pissed me off too!� And when the wife asks for specific examples, the husband doesn�t have any. I would say your husband falls into the typical guy syndrome with this. You might ask him to be honest with you when you upset him at the time you upset him so he� s not trying to scramble and bring up something. All he knows is that he�s been upset by you but doesn�t really keep the details in his head.

Here�s an example of not bringing stuff up when it should be brought up. Sunday my wife and I were supposed to go out and watch a movie and go out to eat for lunch without the kids. All week I was looking forward to it. Then Sunday rolls around and my wife has a change of heart and decides she wants to take the kids fishing and go to the park. And I had reminded her at least twice a day everyday T, W, Th, and F to ask her mom to watch the kids for a few hours so we could go out. Each time she said, �No problem. I keep forgetting to ask her. I�ll do it soon.� Well, she hadn�t brought it up to her mom it turns out. Now granted I had some homework due and the carpets needed to be cleaned. So I used this time to clean the carpets and get some homework done. But I would rather have sacrificed some sleep to do the homework and gone out on a date with my wife. But I didn�t say anything. And I still haven�t said to my wife, �you know, I�m really upset that we had made plans to go out and we didn�t.� I will though today when I shoot her a text in a bit. If not, then I start to think, �why would I bring something up that happened three days ago or a week ago� (or insert X amount of time). And when you�re upset with your spouse, one tends to be a bit more heightened and sensitive to other things that wouldn�t normally upset them�but do.

Soooo�that�s a long story short to say your husband just might not bring stuff up that upsets him when it does upset him and then time passes and doesn�t want to bring up old stuff. Pretty soon details start to fade but we do know that our wives have upset us. But we don�t have specifics and so it gets dismissed because we don�t have details. Meanwhile, the wives are bombarding the husband with very specific details.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

kilted_thrower #2437748 10/25/10 10:46 AM
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Wow, this is right on for me. I think it is normal to be on the defensive when attacked.

My problem is that my husband denies things even as they are happening making me sound like a nag.

Last week he recieved a phone call from a friend of mine. He didn't tell me about it for 2 days. I informed him of my frustration nicely and he apologized. The next day, I called home several times expecting an important phone call about test results on our dog. When I expressed frustration on not having heard from the vet, he "remembered" that they had called before he left for work. Now I was very exasperated (needing to pick up meds after having been that way) I said, can you just let calls go to voicemail? in a not so nice voice.

He was hurt and angry and stated that it was only one mistake and I shouldn't be so upset...so....I reminded him of the other recent mistake. Please note that it is a standing joke with my close friends and family so that they always call back when he has taken a message but I didn't go into that...just the recent occurence.

What should I have done?

I empathsize with CWIM. Sure her husband probably hasn't bought that many cars but maybe he makes frequent big purchases without asking. If she states the obvious and he looks at her like she is crazy then of course she will want to give examples.

Having said that, I am now making a concerted effort to NOT bring up his shortcomings when I am attacked....you know like

"How could you forget the milk?" "Yeah well, last week you forgot toliet paper."

It isn't like this with my girlfriends. I have one who is always late, she knows she is always late and we make adjustments for that. My DH denies and is insulted when I suggest we make adjustments.


lousygolfer #2437829 10/25/10 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by lousygolfer
CWMI:

You stated this:

Quote
I have come home many, many times to discover that he had bought a car without discussing it.

How many times, really?

Once, twice, Three Times?

Seven.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
kilted_thrower #2437833 10/25/10 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Soooo�that�s a long story short to say your husband just might not bring stuff up that upsets him when it does upset him and then time passes and doesn�t want to bring up old stuff. Pretty soon details start to fade but we do know that our wives have upset us. But we don�t have specifics and so it gets dismissed because we don�t have details. Meanwhile, the wives are bombarding the husband with very specific details.

How does that have anything to do with me? If you, or my H, fail to speak up, how is that the fault of the wife? If you just know you're upset but don't know why, what are we supposed to do with that?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2437844 10/25/10 02:39 PM
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Well, you might ask him if he genuinely has complaints or is upset about something then bring it up as it happens or very shortly after rather than to say "Well, I have a ton of complaints about you toobut I can't remember any specifically. "

As an example, perhaps he really was upset about you spending so much time on the phone. And he doesn't say anything to you but stews on it for awhile internally. So, of course, you have no idea he's upset and the issue can't be addressed until it's brought out.

Last edited by kilted_thrower; 10/25/10 03:13 PM.

Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

kilted_thrower #2437856 10/25/10 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Well, you might ask him if he genuinely has complaints or is upset about something then bring it up as it happens or very shortly after rather than to say "Well, I have a ton of complaints about you toobut I can't remember any specifically. "

As an example, perhaps he really was upset about you spending so much time on the phone. And he doesn't say anything to you but stews on it for awhile internally. So, of course, you have no idea he's upset and the issue can't be addressed until it's brought out.

Do you mean educate him on RH?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2437871 10/25/10 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Do you mean educate him on RH?

Yup. And I'm pretty sure you have since you've been integrating the MB program into your marriage for awhile. Sometimes we guys take a time or five before we get it.


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

CWMI #2437877 10/25/10 04:17 PM
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CWMI, I predict you are going to continue to be frustrated with your H. I do not think you are on the same page on some fairly major issues. And I do not think your H is prepared to be honest with you. Because he fears (and not unreasonably) that if he admits the truth, you won't want to remain married to him. I think it will be very difficult for you to motivate your H to adopt RH while he feels this way.

My wife and I have gone through this. She would not be honest about her attitude toward sex. I allowed her to continue to hold unreaslistic expectations of my career ambitions. In both cases, we refused to be RH because we feared that the other person would leave if we were honest.

I think you need to make a decision. You need to decide for yourself what you will and will not tolerate. Are you leaving if he refuses to be open and honest? Are you leaving if he admits that he has no intention of involving you in his work decisions? Are you staying either way, but you want to know where you stand so you can adopt appropriate coping mechanisms?

Radical Honesty is wonderful where both people are committed to building a fabulous marriage as a first order life goal. It is great when people get to the point where they view criticism from a spouse as valuable information, so that the listener can better meet their spouse's needs and avoid love busters. But that attitude requires that one believe they can succeed. I must have confidence that, with effort and accurate information about my wife's ENS, I can satisfy them.

I think your H lacks this confidence. I am guessing that he thinks he cannot succeed in his career if he adopts the restrictions you are suggesting. Which is why he wants you to loosen the restrictions. Not saying he is right. Not saying you aren't entitled to want what you want. But if he doesn't think he can provide what you want, he may well continue to press you to ask for less rather than stepping up and offering you (and demanding from outsiders) more.

I can remember many conversations in which I basically told Mrs. Hold "please do not ask me or express desire for anything I can't afford to buy you. It makes me feel incompetent and worthless." Yes, I know that goes against RH. I should want to know her desires so we can POJA a way to satisfy them. But I didn't believe any POJA was available (still don't), so I didn't want to hear her requests. Perhaps your H feels similarly?


When you can see it coming, duck!
holdingontoit #2437886 10/25/10 04:53 PM
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Hold, the difference here is that I would be happier with less money and a less successful husband. I'm not asking for that which is unprovidable, I'm asking for consideration in decisions. Any healthy human being can give that. It's not a 'thing' it's a thought.

And I remind you, he threatened divorce over this, not me, so I don't see how you can figure that he won't be honest out of fear of me leaving? He was leaving me if I didn't just 'suck it up!' That's not someone who is afraid of being left, that's someone who wants to have their way. At all cost.

He did start reading Leadership and Self-Deception last night. You're right, Hold, I will continue to be frustrated with my H unless and until I pull the plug (which he won't, apparently, after so many threats to do so with no action).


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
kilted_thrower #2437889 10/25/10 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Originally Posted by CWMI
Do you mean educate him on RH?

Yup. And I'm pretty sure you have since you've been integrating the MB program into your marriage for awhile. Sometimes we guys take a time or five before we get it.

Two years???

How the *blank* does a guy who moves to the front of his company in four months not grasp the concept of BEING HONEST in TWO FLIPPING YEARS???

Sorry, exasperated, not fighting with you, but this 'he's a dude, we're stupid' crap doesn't fly with me.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2437893 10/25/10 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
How the *blank* does a guy who moves to the front of his company in four months not grasp the concept of BEING HONEST in TWO FLIPPING YEARS???

Isn't he a car salesman?


Me - 44
DW - 39
Married 16 years
DS10
DS6
DD4
bitbucket #2437896 10/25/10 05:19 PM
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lol. Yes, yes he is...

I was a bartender, I was still able to incorporate honesty into my core, even though my job was being the best bullslinger around. I made my best money telling outrageous stories and faking affection, attention, and basic caring. I can tell the difference between money and life. Do you think a car salesman cannot?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2437897 10/25/10 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by lousygolfer
CWMI:

You stated this:

Quote
I have come home many, many times to discover that he had bought a car without discussing it.

How many times, really?

Once, twice, Three Times?

Seven.

LG: still think I'm exaggerating? I'm really curious if you think 7 cars in 10 years is too many to buy without your spouse's consent.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2437901 10/25/10 05:39 PM
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Well, for what's it's worth, I think buying 7 cars in 10 years is wasteful period, and extremely bad for the environment. I don't think I've owned 7 cars in my entire life.

But buying even 1 car without consulting with your spouse about it first is wrong.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
CWMI #2437903 10/25/10 06:00 PM
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Well, yes, if you have a H who prefers more time at work, more money, and less time with you, then your marriage has a BIG problem. If his entire sense of self and worth is tied into his job. And his marriage to you comes behind that. Then he will not choose to implement the MB system.

As you know, Dr. Harley will not counsel couples who refuse to commit to 15 hours of UA time. Because the MB system won't work without it. If your H prioritizes work over UA time and POJAing with you, you have your answer. Not a happy answer. But an answer. Refusing to accept his answer is likely to increase your frustration.

I have spent over 13 years refusing to accept my wife's answer. And she, mine. It has not lead to happiness for either of us. YMMV. And i hope it does.


When you can see it coming, duck!
holdingontoit #2437905 10/25/10 06:23 PM
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Quote
And I remind you, he threatened divorce over this, not me, so I don't see how you can figure that he won't be honest out of fear of me leaving? He was leaving me if I didn't just 'suck it up!' That's not someone who is afraid of being left, that's someone who wants to have their way. At all cost.

At the risk of both sounding like Captain obvious and telling you something you already know, Hold's quote was super-easy to apply to your situation. He would be resistant to RH because it stands in the way of him getting his way. And if it's choosing between you and getting his way, well, the answer is obvious.

I don't remember, have you read the When to Call It Quits article? The family in that article reconciled. If you have the choice of
  1. living the next five years like this and taking those steps and
  2. taking those steps now
what are the pros and cons of each? Maybe you're like the man dealing with no SF in the 3rd article, a soggy potato chip is better than no potato chip. BTDT! I guess it takes what it takes. I'm still praying and hoping for a happy outcome for you guys.


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
NewEveryDay #2441162 11/07/10 02:43 PM
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Well, still married. lol.

New Orleans was NOT what I expected...I don't know if it was the filth, bums, and unbelievable expense (really? $9 for a 2-liter soda and a 16oz bottle of water? No wonder there's so much poverty there) or the way my H was a complete a-hole while we were there. He said that *I* put us in that position of being there. He deludes himself much. I did correct him. (He: You're the one who wanted to come here! Me: Wait a dang minute. I never said I wanted to come here. I said I wanted you to get a job with no travel. Don't you dare blame me for the situations YOU put us in.)

It wasn't a total loss; we did see the St. Louis Cathedral, and the French Market, and all of Canal Street, and hit Harrah's. Spent about ten minutes on Bourbon Street and ran! Ick. I feel like I need penicillin just for being there.

Personally, I'm doing great. I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I got the position of asst editor for my school's literary magazine, and last week I was invited into the honors program. So school is awesome. It is my element.



Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2441184 11/07/10 04:46 PM
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Hi, I am learning to be more positive about things and appreciate things and be grateful for what I have. Already I am enjoying everything about life more....I would like to practice my new attitude on your post here since it sounds quite negative.

Well, still married. lol.

Not too negative but a little, little sharp joke.

New Orleans was NOT what I expected...I don't know if it was the filth, bums, and unbelievable expense (really? $9 for a 2-liter soda and a 16oz bottle of water? No wonder there's so much poverty there)

Positive translation:

I enjoyed the trip to New Orleans with my husband mostly because he asked me to go with him.


or the way my H was a complete a-hole while we were there. He said that *I* put us in that position of being there.

Positive twist:

I liked being around my husband and spending time with him that we do not usually have available at home.


He deludes himself much. I did correct him. (He: You're the one who wanted to come here! Me: Wait a dang minute. I never said I wanted to come here. I said I wanted you to get a job with no travel. Don't you dare blame me for the situations YOU put us in.)

Positive spin:

There is no way to make this positive unless you did not correct him at all. This is too negative to change, you would have to change your personality and your deep negative attitudes, in order to change this statement since it is clear you treat your husband badly and are PROUD of it.

It wasn't a total loss; we did see the St. Louis Cathedral, and the French Market, and all of Canal Street, and hit Harrah's.

Positive spin: This is quite positive, no need to change.


Spent about ten minutes on Bourbon Street and ran! Ick. I feel like I need penicillin just for being there.

Positive translation:

Spent about ten minutes on Bourbon Street to see the old buildings, bars, and farmer's market.

Personally, I'm doing great. I don't know if I mentioned it before, but I got the position of asst editor for my school's literary magazine, and last week I was invited into the honors program. So school is awesome. It is my element.

Positive spin not needed for this statement. It is OK on its own. If only you could love your husband this much, speak well of him, respect him and treat him well. I hope someday you can and will do that.





Bubbles4U #2441198 11/07/10 07:40 PM
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Been there, done that! Went sightseeing on Bourbon street with the kids, their dad, and four more grown relatives. All the adults except me had been there before, but only one had been with a kid, so none of us realized how totally inappropriate place it was to bring them. Everyone was like, oh, it's not usually like this, the next block iill be better, but no, it was more of the same, porn photos in the windows. I got more and more uncomfortable, until *finally* I got a smart idea and went went one block over, and who knew, it was the Gulf! NO embarrassing stuff! Peacful and scenic, like the vacation I had in mind smile I told the other folks, we have cellphones, I'll stay with the kids over here and call you later, but no, they came with us, and enjoyed the Gulf view, too. I wish I'd remembered you were going there, I would've given you the heads-up ahead of time.


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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