That's an idea, markos. We spent more than that on phone coaching.

Barbie, I think the root of the issue is consideration. For instance, when I was invited into Honors at school, I talked with my H before I accepted it. It's going to mean tougher classes and more work. I talked to him before I accepted the position with the magazine, because it involves time and more work. I wanted to make sure he would be happy with more of my time going toward school, that it was workable between us. I told him how much time it was going to take, told him how I planned to manage it, and we agreed that it would be a good thing for me and wouldn't be a problem for him.

But now he gets offered something, and he makes the decision alone and informs me of his decision after the fact. And if I don't like it, too bad for me!

It's NOT controlling to want to be considered. It's not controlling to want to be part of the decision-making process, in fact, that is a basic tenet of the MB program.

He's not controlling toward me in telling what to do or not do. He's been quite pushy on the DS, but I think Steve pretty well resolved that issue. If there's a control issue at all, I would say it is that H wants to be in complete control of everything that he does without having to consider how that may affect anyone else.

Perhaps. You know him better than me. But what you posted is a DJ nonetheless.

Perhaps he doesn't want to be in control. You may find he feels he has very little control. Over you. Over his job. You may find that he is driven to meet your needs. And that he feels incapable of meeting those needs in a manner you find acceptable. I don't know what he feels.

But I am confident he won't admit the truth if he feels he is going to be judged and found wanting no matter what he says.

This is so sad. And revealing. I read thru all these posts one more time. I observed that there was NOT ONE POSITIVE THING you said about your husband. NOT ONE THING.

It was all DJ'S. You even called him an [censored] hole once. That is pretty bad. You are seething with hostility toward him.

I was hoping it was 80% DJ's to 20% nice things. But it looks like you are DJ'ING 100% regarding your husband. You must really hate him. Even though YOU are the inflexible one. You wont even allow ONE TRIP a year if YOU GO ALONG! Why not? Are you not wanting to go with him on a trip? What is YOUR DEAL HERE?????

Not true. She did say he's not controlling towards her. I believe that counts as 1 positive thing.


I'm not sure about seething with hostility but there seems to be a certain amount of animosity towards your husband in your posts. Perhaps it's just the way you post that makes it seem like this. But I tend to think part of our personalities come out in our writing. Do you think some of this perceived typed animosity leaks out away from the keyboard when you are around him?

Duped

Why would your husband need to ask for your opinion concerning his work situation when he already knows what your opinion is??

Because your opinion on his work situation is inflexable and not changing from week to week it would seem unnecessary and repitious to continue asking the same question.

I think your husband does consider his family. You have said, from his POV he is the glue that holds the family together.

Your husband has gone the extra mile for his family by, in good faith, looking for a different job that is more family orientated. I think he has found that. In this time of GFC I do not think many would have risked doing that.

Your husband should be given a lot of credit.

Just a correction, he said *I* was the rock holding the family together.

Re the new job: he was getting a lot of pressure from me and Steve Harley to find new employment. He looked at a few job postings online and refused to look for something else in his field. This new job was brought to him by an old co-worker, he didn't 'seek' it, it was plopped in his lap. I think he felt a lot of pressure to take it, since it is an advancement, but he was plenty mad about changing jobs. After I learned that he misled me about what it would entail (he came home from the interview stating that there was no travel and spouses are invited to all events), I asked him why did he put us through this? Why change jobs if it was essentially no different from the last one? Why be angry at me for weeks about 'having' to change jobs when he didn't even change to one that meets my needs?

I get full sick about being punished for his choices. He knowingly does things he knows I won't like, then gets mad at me for not liking it. IMHO, that's a bit crazy.

I just finished reading a book a couple weeks ago called, "Leadership and Self Deception". It's a modern parable style story. There's a husband/wife illustration in the story that goes through how the husband set the wife up to be at fault; the wife was doing the same thing but the book didn't go into her side of the story very much.

I think you'll see the dynamic that you and your husband have going. I wouldn't recommend you have him read it; he already feels pressure from Steve that he's at fault and he's to blame (which he is - but that's not working to fix the core of the problem right now). But it will help you start to break your patterns of blaming him. It may be scary to take this step because if you let him off the hook and start owning how you set him up, then he gets to do the thing that requires you to sacrifice instead of him. Sacrifice is a destructive thing in your marriage. For either of you.

I realize that the travel thing is non-negotiable. With the exception of traveling to a manufacturing facility for training, I don't see why a car salesman ever has to leave home. EVER. He's not the one hired by the company to go out to auctions to find used cars. So he has no reason to travel. He's volunteering for extra duty because he has discovered that he has an emotional need to travel. It's the only way to explain how his taker took over and forced you to sacrifice your emotional need for him to NOT travel.

He can't speak to his desires because you are so very against it. He feels he can't be true to his aspirations because you've taken it off the table. He fears divorce because of children and love for you, but that love becomes less and less with each sacrifice he makes.

So while travel is non-negotiable for you, what is it for him? Do you love him enough to dare ask the question and be civil as you discuss the root causes of this betrayal?

A wise man speaking to a very large congregation about marriage said that we try to give others the benefit of a doubt, yet ascribe the worst of intentions to our spouse. "Assume the Good and Doubt the Bad".


I think if you want to save your marriage, you should find a way to ascribe the best of intentions to your husband instead of the worst. Even if his behavior seems to have the worst of intentions toward you, it may be that his own emotional needs which you are not meeting, either by intention or ignorance - have gone unmet for so long that his taker is in full control.

If you want to recover your marriage, it's time you start looking at the withdrawals your own needs are making on him. Start from there and see what happens.

The tough thing right now is the lack of ability to POJA on this issue puts you at odds with each other's emotional needs. It requires one of you to sacrifice. Right now, your husband seems to be at an emotional extremity, so he forced the sacrifice you are asking him to make, back on you by taking the choice out of your hands.

Sacrifice puts your marriage at risk. Neither of you should sacrifice.

I've already read the book, and he is reading it now. He's about halfway through it.

I have asked him why he volunteers to travel. After denying that he actually does volunteer (if it's not required, how can it be anything but voluntary? I don't know why he doesn't seem to understand that), he has said things from "I deserve it!" to "I had no choice! What do you want me to do, work at McDonalds?" But according to him, even staff members at Mickey's must travel, which is so mind-blowingly ridiculous, they don't send 16-year-olds out of state to learn to use the fry vat!

It is very difficult to have a reasonable discussion with him when he throws out ridiculous stuff like that. Last night he said, "I'm going to do things that may look like I'm not taking you into consideration, but I don't take you for granted." What do you say to THAT? My translation is: I'm going to continue to hurt you in premeditated ways that I know are going to hurt you, but I appreciate you sticking around and taking care of me.

Selfish!

I do NOT get the mentality that you should just do whatever you want because you have some sort of entitlement complex. That's all fine and well for the single person with no children, but once you marry and have children it is cruel, heartless and clearly a path to self-destruction and the destruction of your family.

Travel is not an emotional need because him traveling does not create love for me. He does not love me more when he travels, he enjoys HIMSELF, perhaps, but it does not make him love me so therefore is not an EN.

CWMI:

You were gone for a while, and I am glad you enjoyed (?) your trip to Naw'Leans.

7 cars in 10 years? Then you say he sells cars, that would not sound that unusual. But, you say he took this job in the dealership, so he just started selling cars, right?

I could have a new car every year. Flamingo has had 4 in her life time, I have had over 12 now. At one time, she still owned three of them.... She likes to keep stuff, and I like to trade them in. I have had basically the same car for 8 years now. It suits are purposes. And I had the oppurtunity when the old one was wrecked last year to get whatever I wanted, and I bought the same type of car again. I have quashed my desires for something exciting, for what made sense for the long term for my family. That is something new for me.

With that, Is your husband GOOD at his new job? Its not part of this question, whether he travels, or doesn't come home, but is he GOOD at it? Can he move METAL?

Does he make a good salary?
Does he spend quality time with the kids?
Does he do anything right?
Has ANYTHING changed about him in the past two years?

Should you spend more time with SH? You shouldn't, your Husband Should. Let him talk to SH a number of times without your input. Maybe he won't feel "maniupulated" becasue he will just be able to discuss what HE feels he needs to discuss with SH. And maybe, SH can get your H more fully on board with giving you the active consideration of what is important to you.

Knowing what is going on in his life, as soon as possible after he finds out, so that you two can make plans where it impacts things going on in your life.

It really not the travel. Its the lack of consideration about what HE is doing and how it affects you. He learns on the 2nd of the month that he needs to go overnight on the 15th. He tells you on the 14th. So, you had no time to be prepared, and since there was X event in your life on the 15th, the support you thought you had isn't there. And there is nothing you can do about it, and you have to scramble to fill the hole. And your H goes to his travel skipping lightly...

And that builds resentment in you...

If the travel is a deal breaker for you, then you have to break the deal. And get D'ed.

If you felt that he gave you the consideration FIRST, over everything ELSE, and then his job, his travel, and his cars, then, you might actually have a shot at a good marriage. I think SH can help with this. Let your H talk to SH, and let them talk a number of times, and let SH guide him and show him a new way of doing things. A way that makes your H comfortable when the "man" imposes a work issue on him, and also you, becasue your H works WITH you, and not seemingly against you.

And one thing that Flamingo learned after 45 years. You can choose your attitude. Are drinks expensive when you travel? Yep. So you search for bargains, or bring your own in the future. In N.O. dirty and smuty? Yep. So, you reserach MORE the places you are going, or realize that this isn't the place for you, and find something else to do. Was your H an A-hole? Maybe, but what was he presented with? A happy person, or an angry person? Choose your attitude.

LG

While it may not be an EN in the typical sense of the word, it could still be a need for your H. The EN's, as I understand it, are needs that can be met by our spouses, but that doesn't mean those are the only needs that we have.

For me, writing is a need. It fulfills me, gives my life a sense of purpose, helps me understand the world around me. It may not be an EN that my H can fulfill, but it is still a need, and he can support that need by supporting my writing, giving me time to devote to my art, encouraging me, etc.

I do not believe that the top 10 EN's are the only things that we as human beings need in life, and I don't think the Harley's intended them to be.

Have you asked your H what needs are being fulfilled by traveling? What this ability to travel adds to his life? Maybe trying to understand why he wants to continue to travel will help you to discover a solution to this impasse you two seem to be stuck in.

He's been in the car business the whole time I've known him, LG.

I did go with a good attitude. My attitude failed a bit after a few things happened--he didn't do anything about getting us from the airport to the hotel, so I researched it and found that we had three options other than renting a car: 1. taxi ($34 for two, additional $14 each for other four, each way) 2. shuttle (flat $38 per person round-trip) 3. public bus ($4 each, round trip). He agreed to just take the bus (and I even got the bus driver to let us off at a non-stop on her loop around the Dome because it was closest to our hotel) and complained and glared at me about it every time it stopped, looking at his watch, saying, "This was a horrible idea. I should have just taken a cab!" Notice the "I" statement? I did.

The first night he and I went out for a little bit, across the street to the casino and then in the downstairs bar. The second night he came back from the seminar and went straight to bed. Never mind that we had plans to go out again. And we're in a hotel room, right? So he made us turn off the lights and the TV, none of the rest of us had a choice but to go to bed, too. At 7pm. I wasn't about to take the kids out at night, or go out by myself.

The next day we left, we missed the bus because he went across the street to the bathroom, so we had to wait for another one, about 20 minutes. That was my fault, too. He stood away from us with his arms crossed, pissed. Self-deception, yep!

I LOVE the idea of him talking to SH by himself. Many of our conversations were like that, we'd both chat for a while with him then Steve would talk to H alone. H didn't like that, felt he was 'targeted' as 'the problem'. Well...

This is classic control.

Each partner feels that they know what is "right" for the relationship. One or both act on this well intentioned, but misguided belief.


He feels controlled, he acts out in passive ways. (the bathroom, the job itself, the 7:30 lights out)
You feel that you are NOT incontrol of your life, due to choices he makes. You push, he pushes, the escallation begins.

Here is a hint. WHENEVER you hear namecalling, sarcasm or putting down the other partner in a relationship, there is an issue of control being exherted <- sp?.
That statement sent my marriage/myself into a total spin.

So what do you suggest I do, Barbie?

By the way......
There is nothing wrong with being a alpha or passive person.

I have often been called "Martha Stewart on crack!" I thought I was doing GOOD! (I admit, I kind of still do.)

In healthy relationships, partners accept and encourage this differnce. They compliment each other.
But when the balance gets out of whack-- control issues can tailspin into abusive behaviors.

The job and travel issues may not be the underlaying cause of your current problems. Just think about that for awhile.

Also, in control related issues, it is never one partner over the other. NO one is submissive all of the time. I think both parties share the alpha role. Sometimes you can get a tug of war.

Just my honest opinion

I have an artistic need as well. It's my outlet, how I cope with life.

BUT, I don't let my artistic needs come before marital needs. My artistic needs are only elevated when they help fulfill the other emotional needs. For example, with one of my artistic outlets, I can make twice as much money per hour as my husband can. So, in this case, my artistic need is elevated because it also provides FS.

Or, we might attend an artistic event as part of RC. But, this is POJA'd. If my husband didn't agree, I wouldn't push for it, or even attend events on my own, even if he didn't agree.

Otherwise, the marital needs (and my kids needs) have higher priority over my artistic needs.

And, actually, pursuing my artistic needs in the wrong time or place can actually allow others to begin to fulfill my emotional needs, rather than my husband.

Inrecovery: I agree completely that artistic needs cannot come before marital needs. The problem I see for CWMI's H is, this need he has to travel (and I'm not sure that this is even a need for him, so I'm going off the assumption that it may be) is not respected or supported at all. There is no real way for him to POJA a situation where CWMI has already clearly stated that she is not okay with him traveling for business, anywhere, any time.

It would be the same as my H saying he isn't okay with me writing, ever again. It's a deal breaker for him. If I continue to write, then the M is over.

If traveling means as much to CWMI's H as writing does to me (and I have no idea if this is true or not) then there is no win-win situation that I can see here. Either he gives up something he dearly loves (traveling) or he loses his M.

Honestly, I would have a very difficult time accepting this if my H gave me a similar ultimatum, mostly because he knows how much my writing means to me, and to ask me to give up something that is so important to me would tell me that he doesn't care very much about me or really understand anything about me at all.

All I asked CWMI to do was to consider what it is that her H gets out of traveling. Try to understand why this might be so important to him. Maybe it isn't even that important to him at all, and that's what she would discover. But I get the feeling that she hasn't really talked to him about his feelings regarding this. I get the feeling he's afraid to really share his feelings with her because he already knows what her reaction is going to be.

Exactly. If you're putting your personal needs, not matter how noble or moral they may be, over the needs of your marriage, why are you married? Why bother torturing another person by shoving your personal fulfillment on them against their will?

Aren't you kind of shoving your will onto your H as well?

Again, I see no desire from you to sit down with your H and actually listen to how he feels about this. You seem to have no consideration for his feelings at all, and then you get angry when he doesn't consider yours.

See, I don't agree. If travel is a need, why is Business travel the only way for Mr CWMIs need to be met? If travel is a need, why isn't he whisking CWMI and their family on vacations, long weekend get-aways, etc? Why wouldn't Mr. CWMI's need for travel be part of RC?

Now, I'm presuming that your husband knew about your writing before you got married. What if he had said "Writer, I support you 100% on your writing," and then after marriage and children said "Nope, sorry Writer. For what ever reason, I'm not supporting you on your writing anymore. Oh, and I'm not sure I really ever supported your writing 100% of the time. I just went along with it in the beginning, because, well, I did. And now, I actually don't think I ever really liked you writing. Opps, I guess I misrepresented myself. Too bad, so sad"

Then, writer, what would you do?

Exactly.

You may think you "need" something, but if you are getting it over the objections of your spouse, you are getting it at their expense, and costing yourself the chance of having a marriage of passionate love.