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sunnydaze53 #2453611 12/17/10 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
Smiling Woman,

Three years ago, I would have agreed with you. That thought seems utterly ridiculous. The problem was the thought of living in a marriage where you are not put first (or second or third or tenth)is draining.

I certainly know this is true. I lived it myself. Lived with a man for 26 years who is 20 times worse than CWMI's dh on his worst day. I would have loved it had his biggest fault been that he worked too much. I would still be married to him and my son's FOO would be intact.

Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
It seems to me, she has several options

1. Request and receive the best counseling available (check)

2. Continue to live in a relationship that she finds disrespectful and dissatisfying (check)

3. Seperate or divorce

Right now she is as number 2. I was there.


My DH's "other woman" was his work and all the "fun" activities that were related to his work. I should have made my needs clear and defended my boundaries like CWMI is doing. Maybe she isn't as subtle and kind as she could be but she has been doing this awhile

AND she is in conflict which means she hasn't withdrawn

Yet.

I am not suggesting CWMI should NOT make her needs known to him. Or that she should begin pretending that she is good with how things are.

However, I do think that divorce is hard. It is hard for everyone and everyone loses so much more than they would by just putting up with one another's faults--to a point. And I guess that is where my opinions differ. I took a lot off my WXH, but when I found out about his affairs I divorced him.

SmilingWoman #2453615 12/17/10 12:51 PM
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SW, you came here 'hating' your H before you knew about any affairs. It was the title of one of your threads: "Hate my husband". Are you really saying you would have continued being married to him, hating him, refusing to have sex with him, if he remained just as he had been when you got here? For the rest of your life? You may say yes. I would say, for me, no, I don't want to spend the rest of my life in a loveless, or hate-filled, marriage.

I can put up with some faults. Disregarding me is not one of them. Neither is dishonesty.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2453617 12/17/10 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
SW, you came here 'hating' your H before you knew about any affairs. It was the title of one of your threads: "Hate my husband". Are you really saying you would have continued being married to him, hating him, refusing to have sex with him, if he remained just as he had been when you got here? For the rest of your life? You may say yes. I would say, for me, no, I don't want to spend the rest of my life in a loveless, or hate-filled, marriage.

I can put up with some faults. Disregarding me is not one of them. Neither is dishonesty.

Amen and Merry Christmas.


BS: 37
FWH: 37
EA: 2 months, ending June 08
Married 7 years
4 kids (2 together)
Hoping for a Recovery
CWMI #2453620 12/17/10 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
SW, you came here 'hating' your H before you knew about any affairs. It was the title of one of your threads: "Hate my husband". Are you really saying you would have continued being married to him, hating him, refusing to have sex with him, if he remained just as he had been when you got here? For the rest of your life? You may say yes. I would say, for me, no, I don't want to spend the rest of my life in a loveless, or hate-filled, marriage.

I can put up with some faults. Disregarding me is not one of them. Neither is dishonesty.

I did not refuse to have sex with him. In fact we continued having sex right up until the morning I found out about OW. I did hate him at times....I vented here a lot. I got a lot of 2 X 4s too. I worked very very hard to be the best wife I could to him even though he was viscious to me on many levels. It was definitely to a level of abuse that I would not encourage anyone to tolerate. He cursed me constantly, belittled me constantly, lived an entirely seperate life from me and ds. Is that really the kind of marriage you have with your dh?


I also did not come here hating him before I found out about any of his affairs. I first came here in the summer of 07 when I accidentally discovered he was trying to hook up with the wife of one of his oldest friends from High School.

So to answer your question about ME specifically....I wish I had not spent so many years working so hard. I wish I had not required proof of his seriel cheating before I kicked him to the curb. And as bad as it was it wasn't all bad. I would not say it was totally hate filled and loveless.

Is that how you really feel about your marriage? Because I don't see your marriage that way.....maybe it really is...but I don't read that in your posts. If my XH ONLY worked a lot...had ONLY disconnected from us like he did....but been kind to me...I would not have divorced him.


CWMI #2453621 12/17/10 01:05 PM
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CWMI, I think you are doing the right thing (which ought to scare the crap out of you). I think you should insist on your boundaries, even if it means the end of your marriage. I don't think you will be happy with your life otherwise, and I think you do have the capacity for happiness.

I hope I am proved wrong in thinking your marriage will end in divorce. I hope your husband steps up to the plate once you draw a firm line on what you will not accept. If not, his loss.


When you can see it coming, duck!
CWMI #2453622 12/17/10 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
I can put up with some faults. Disregarding me is not one of them. Neither is dishonesty.

Wouldn't that cover any fault that you wanted changed that he refuses to change?

And you are free of course to divorce anyone you want. I certainly wish my very unhappy XH had divorced me instead of cheating on me for years.

SmilingWoman #2453640 12/17/10 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Is that how you really feel about your marriage? Because I don't see your marriage that way.....maybe it really is...but I don't read that in your posts. If my XH ONLY worked a lot...had ONLY disconnected from us like he did....but been kind to me...I would not have divorced him.

You haven't read the posts. Is it kindness to tell your wife that you only said you wanted kids because you thought you couldn't have them? Is it kind to manipulate agreements by leaving out important pieces of information? How about moving out in the middle of the night while your family is sleeping, or going out of town for days and refusing to answer the phone, coming home drunk? How about screaming over chairs 'off the mark', or in your face about telemarketers ("I AM A NICE PERSON!!!!" he screamed in my face after refusing to tell a telemarketer--for me, she kept hanging up on me when I said it--to take our number off their list)? Is it kind to repeatedly lie to your spouse? Allow your parents to say cruel things to them? Tell people who are complimenting your wife that you disagree with them? Is that kind? How about going in early and staying late at work for an entire week while your wife is sick with the flu, can't get out of bed, and the kids are out of school? Then calling and asking what's for dinner and coming in and complaining about the mess?

I've put up with a LOT of BS. I'm not here trying to change anything because he is so very kind to me...


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2453642 12/17/10 01:56 PM
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Is it kind to bring up every fault your husband ever did or said in your short marriage????

NO. You are appearing to be UNKIND. And it appears you are not open to any kind of marriage improvement idea or solution.

Bubbles4U #2453643 12/17/10 01:58 PM
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You know what? We dont know half of what really happens in your marriage. If you are anything like this (even a little bit) to your husband as you are on this board then...........well you can figure out what I am trying to say here.

Bubbles4U #2453644 12/17/10 01:58 PM
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We can only lead the horse to water, we cannot ram solutions down it's throat.

Bubbles4U #2453650 12/17/10 02:37 PM
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If you agree that she should make her complaints known and enforce her boundaries then please explain how she is to do this if she isn't willing to leave?

I'm not trying to be snarky because I haven't figured that out yet for myself.

And Bubbles, maybe you are right, maybe she is DJing about future events and his motivations. How does one stop doing that when it has been proven to be true again and again?

If you read Charlie Brown, Lucy always removes the football before he can kick it. How long is he supposed to keep trying?

The reason I feel so attached to this situation is because I still feel like she is doing right what I did wrong. After my A, everyone, friends and family alike told me I should have left if I was unhappy, HOWEVER, knowing my friends and family like I do, I would expect a similar response to what CWMI is doing.

Here everyone assumes that if a woman is leaving or has left her husband, there must be another man. That is a documented fact that most women leave for that reason. Maybe that is because it is so drilled into us that leaving for any other reason is unacceptable. We mitigate the pain we are in by delving in to fantasy land....is that better?

With some people IRL, I sincerely believe they are more understanding of me having an A than if I had just left AND that is sad.

CWMI #2453657 12/17/10 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
You haven't read the posts. Is it kindness to tell your wife that you only said you wanted kids because you thought you couldn't have them? Is it kind to manipulate agreements by leaving out important pieces of information? How about moving out in the middle of the night while your family is sleeping, or going out of town for days and refusing to answer the phone, coming home drunk? How about screaming over chairs 'off the mark', or in your face about telemarketers ("I AM A NICE PERSON!!!!" he screamed in my face after refusing to tell a telemarketer--for me, she kept hanging up on me when I said it--to take our number off their list)? Is it kind to repeatedly lie to your spouse? Allow your parents to say cruel things to them? Tell people who are complimenting your wife that you disagree with them? Is that kind? How about going in early and staying late at work for an entire week while your wife is sick with the flu, can't get out of bed, and the kids are out of school? Then calling and asking what's for dinner and coming in and complaining about the mess?

I've put up with a LOT of BS. I'm not here trying to change anything because he is so very kind to me...


I admitted I've not read all your posts. What you describe above is FAR different from the general picture you've been painting lately. The above contains some abusive treatment.

So WHY has your hill to die on been the work issue?

SmilingWoman #2453662 12/17/10 03:02 PM
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Much of that is work-related, SW. Even the telemarketer thing can be tied to him working so much that he wasn't here for weeks while that lady repeatedly called harassing me. She'd call on his day off, but he wasn't here to take it--he was at work. She'd call in the evening, but he wasn't here--was working late. She'd call in the morning, but he wasn't here--went in early. His parents were here visiting, mouthing off to me, while he was at work. He invited people to come stay in our home, and promptly left them with me. Everything except the babies thing can be tied to work, but he did say that after I complained about...work taking him away so much and leaving me to raise the kids alone! ta da! smile


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
sunnydaze53 #2453664 12/17/10 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
If you agree that she should make her complaints known and enforce her boundaries then please explain how she is to do this if she isn't willing to leave?

I'm not trying to be snarky because I haven't figured that out yet for myself.

And Bubbles, maybe you are right, maybe she is DJing about future events and his motivations. How does one stop doing that when it has been proven to be true again and again?

If you read Charlie Brown, Lucy always removes the football before he can kick it. How long is he supposed to keep trying?

The reason I feel so attached to this situation is because I still feel like she is doing right what I did wrong. After my A, everyone, friends and family alike told me I should have left if I was unhappy, HOWEVER, knowing my friends and family like I do, I would expect a similar response to what CWMI is doing.

It isn't an either or situation. You didn't have to leave or have an affair. You could have made your life with a man who was not an ideal husband. And just because MY marriage failed doesn't mean all of those kinds of marriages have to fail. If you had recognized your lonliness and therefore potential for an affair you would have put EP in place. It is what I did when I was married to a man who I felt put me last. I raised my son, I worshipped my God, I loved my family and friends, I associated with my congregation.

I used to have what I called 'kindness dreams.' Without fail every time my then husband would be mean to me I would go to sleep and dream another man was kind to me. I would wake up and be so amused. It helped me be aware of how he was affecting me.

Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
Here everyone assumes that if a woman is leaving or has left her husband, there must be another man. That is a documented fact that most women leave for that reason. Maybe that is because it is so drilled into us that leaving for any other reason is unacceptable. We mitigate the pain we are in by delving in to fantasy land....is that better?

With some people IRL, I sincerely believe they are more understanding of me having an A than if I had just left AND that is sad.

SmilingWoman #2453673 12/17/10 03:20 PM
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I do not want to teach my daughter that is okay for her to be disregarded and disrespected, nor do I want to teach her to have an affair to deal with it.

I was a conflict avoider. I am learning different. I want that for my daughter. I would be proud if she were more like CWMI.

SmilingWoman #2453674 12/17/10 03:21 PM
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If both spouses are abusive to each other, which one has to move out of the family home? Which one gets the kids? ( I know CW has threatened to leave the kids with her husband in order to get her way in the marriage.)

sunnydaze53 #2453679 12/17/10 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sunnydaze53
I do not want to teach my daughter that is okay for her to be disregarded and disrespected, nor do I want to teach her to have an affair to deal with it.

I was a conflict avoider. I am learning different. I want that for my daughter. I would be proud if she were more like CWMI.

It isn't working for CWMI though is it? She isn't happy.

I think you can state loud and clear what your needs are. Repeatedly. If your mate refuses to accomadate your needs then I guess you need to decide if it is bad enough to leave over.

CMWI is saying it is bad enough to leave over. I don't think this is over work though. I they are sorely mismatched...and they will either have to figure out how to co-exist peacefully....or divorce. They will not ever be what the other needs.

SmilingWoman #2453685 12/17/10 03:36 PM
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CWMI, I know you are at a breaking point, and I wish I had a magic answer. All I could give is a virtual hug.

But I will say that nothing about any of the MB program says a spouse should "suck it up" and just deal with a miserable M. Any advice in that vein is way out of MB parameters.

SmilingWoman #2453688 12/17/10 03:42 PM
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I agree with you and that is where I am stuck. If she had just come here complaining about her husband and not looking for solutions then I would agree it a selfish reason to divorce; however, they have counseled with the best.

If she is not willing to leave then what possible motivation would he have to change anything?

My DH and I actually had a discussion about his lack of affection and non interaction with myself and the kids. He stated that that was "just the way I am." We also discussed his unwillingness to be involved in things important to me like church. Once again, "I don't believe that stuff."

After my A, he attends church regulary (even teaches Sunday School), is home by bedtime 6/7 nights. Only goes out with friends (male) once or twice a month as opposed to 3-4 times a week. He is by no means the "ideal" husband but one I am happy to work with. The problem is of course, he may never recover from my A and I am always a bit resentful to learn he is capable of trying...just wasn't willing

Maybe a plan B will work, and if it doesn't, then she knows she is better off.


sunnydaze53 #2456867 12/27/10 03:42 PM
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Update?


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

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