hahahaha...um, nope. Not a good one, anyway. I'm not in Plan Anything (unless floating is a plan). There is something seriously wrong with me, I SHOULD just go ahead and blow up this life and start a new one already.

He got peeved with me a few days ago, wanted my blessing and commitment to go to an event on the 29th, I just looked at him like he was crazy and laughed. He told me I am 'always so negative about everything', I told him I felt that unfair--I'm negative about after-hour work functions, and just because that's the only thing he approaches me to do, it does not mean I'm negative, always, about everything. It means I am always negative about one thing, the one thing he keeps bringing me. So maybe he'd like to knock it off.

Ah, but then there's the trip coming up, too! *squee* Yeah, I don't know much about it except that he sent me a memo, and I responded, "Why are you sending me this? I don't need this." He called and said, "So what are you saying?" I said, "I'm not saying anything. I've said the same thing for years, if you haven't heard me yet, you're not going to. So why say it again? Is that what you called for? I'm kinda busy."

Sad, huh?

CWMI - have you read the article by Harley on "When to Call It Quits" part one? You can find it here

I've been keeping up on your situation thinking if there was ever a time for a Plan A/Plan B strategy that didn't involve infidelity, this was it.

Since you're well on your way to emotional divorce anyway, what do you have to lose?

He knows this is a deal breaker for you, yet here you are, having these kinds of conversations. In other words, he either doesn't believe you, or he doesn't care. Either way, Plan B will snap his head around - and since you really mean it, you're done - then Plan B will work for you.

What do you think?

I think I should have planned B'd immediately after starting this thread. I was SO HAPPY, so in love, so thrilled with the changes, short-lived as they were, I should have severed at that point to save it. Now I just think he's dumb as a box of rocks. Useless save for cash, which I can get from him without being married to him. He told me that I make him feel stupid.

I told him I thought he was.

It saved me from thinking of him as heartless and cruel.

After so many years of the round and round about the same thing, I had to think he was either stupid or cruel.

Anyway, I don't think I want to save it anymore. I'm amiable to it, I do still think it's best, but I don't want to lift anymore.

I dropped into his work today with the littles, I took the oldest to the airport this morning to fly off to see his dad, and the littles (H's children) wanted to stop at his job since he'd invited us. The guy who took pictures at the company Christmas party was there, and came up to me and said, "You looked fabulous in all the shots, but your husband there ruined them; he looked so tacky." And I thought, yes, tacky. His fake smile...he's such a faker. I have one. He looks like he's snarling. That's his fake smile.

Oh, I see much potential in him if he loses his tacky salesman fakeness. I don't think he's a bad guy. He lacks authenticity, though. Honesty, authenticity, realness instead of his fakey-fake view of how the world works...man...if he would just rest in his worth, as a man, and have good values of worth as a man...he could really be something. I've given ten years, don't see my input having any bearing.

Yes, I told him I thought he was stupid. I've also told him that he underestimates his worth to his employers. He doesn't have to chase empty leads, he is a veritable force who brings profit, NONE of these events have led to profit deals, he can wreak havoc within his daily sched and anyone would be a FOOL to let him go.

So, anyway, if I move on, it's Plan D, I don't see any other way. He'll think B is just a ruse, and there's the stability of the kids--if I leave, kids are with me, so he should leave the home. But I can't make him go unless I really piss him off, and I just don't care enough to!

wth, kt...ask for an update, no comment?

Typical man...

Lol. Knew you'd get me with that comment did ya? Hold on a sec, Madam. I just got out of the dentist office after over a 2 hours visit, and now I'm walking into the gym. Lemme eat my postworkout cow and ilI'll be back with ya. Promise I won't be late.

He's being a good listener and not rushing to give advice on how to fix your situation. Isn't that what women want?

lol! Nice response.

CWMI, I don't really have any insightful comments like I'd like to have. You guys are at a stand still. You have an intolerance in your marriage, which you have tolerated.

And it seems like he feels his work situation is more important than how you feel. It seems you can either do Plan Hold in which you chug along content to forego happiness or you can Plan B to see if that changes anything.

Hey, I resemble that remark!

Cwmi, I was hoping those changes back then would last. It seemed to simple, it was all in place, set up for success.

I don't think it's stupidity. I think it's Renter mentality. "I'm willing to make some limited repairs, but if something really needs fixing, it's not my job." I don't understand why it came back. And darn it if nothing else, for the kids' sake, I wish the good days would have lasted longer. Build up some good memories for them. I don't know, maybe you all did that already.

Do you remember ForeverHers? He called it an issue of pre-eminence - who rules your life? Me or Thee.

The one regret I have, cwmi, is that I never went to my church, my pastor, for help. Years ago, I confided in one staff member there when I was concerned about x's drinking, and she prayed with me about that. But when I was ready for Plan B, the only thing I did was ask for prayers for unity in my family. I never told them where I was, and asked them to reach out to H. I didn't want to be a "bother." My church had just lost it pastor, and was searching for a replacement. I had my pastor's email, could have spoke to him anyway. But I figured they had bigger issues to work on. It was depression talking. Kids losing an intact family is a big deal, and in retrospect, seeing how they have rallied around my family after my Dad's death, I have no doubt they would have reached out to us when we were facing the divorce, too.

Maybe you have spoken with your pastor or elders already.

Not this woman. I would LOVE to complain about something and have a man swoop in and fix it. omg, I would love that SO MUCH.

I have never minded being a bother. I did talk with our CARE ministry, but they were no help for me. It's really messed up--the sermons are fantastic, Stanley himself is awesome and our other pastors are also on the same page with me and how I think, but get down into one-on-one with the regular joes at our church, and it all falls apart. Work is #1, personal happiness trumps commitment...I would love to get my H hooked up with Andy S, or Jeff, but I have no clue how to do that within our flock. We attend the 3rd largest church in the country, weekly attendance of over 20,000. It's not like the pastor shakes everyone's hand after service. I love our church and I wouldn't go to another, but dang...remember how our community group reacted to my feelings on GNO??? There's a great message being delivered, but not heard by a lot of people involved.

Anyway, the care minister told me to respect my husband and follow his lead. I asked him to speak with my husband about being a leader and loving his wife, and he said unless my H initiated the contact, he couldn't speak to him. I said something along the lines of what good are you then, I'm telling you that my husband is leading this family into ruin and you won't do anything to redirect that, you CAN'T? You tell me to FOLLOW him into the destruction of this family? Wow. WWJD? Not what that guy did.

Love my pastors, love the messages, but there is a very small percentage of the population who agrees with MB, POJA, RH, and love as a verb.

cwmi, I'm sorry to hear that. Reminds me of the scripture that says if you have a problem with your fellow man, bring two others to speak with him. Something like that.

My biological father is a used car salesman. The psychologist thought he had anti-social personality disorder. Seems its very common among salesmen and car salesmen in particular. They are very good at telling people what they want to hear and putting on a show, especially for strangers. But inside they don't care about anyone else and don't have a conscience. They blame others for problems. Its never their fault. They have superficial charm but lack empathy for others.

I wonder if MarriageBuilders even works with someone who has such a personality disorder. Posters that have advised you, and even DrH, assume that people feel guilty or are motivated for the same reasons that most people are. But science shows that anti-socials are motivated by money. Not even pain. They put some anti-socials in an experiment where they were electrically shocked for wrong answers or lost 25 cents. The anti-socials had no learning improvement from the shocks...unlike normal people who learn to avoid pain. BUT...they learned much better than normal people when the loss of money was at stake. People like this are drawn to sales because the more they act nice and fool the customers, the more commission they are paid. Anti-socials don't care if they lie to customers, or cheat, or turn in false papers. They care if they loose money.

So how does a program like MB, which assumes people have a conscience and guilt, work when the other party feels no compunction about abusing others or cheating as long as it produces more money? What if your husband has anti-social tendencies? He is a great salesman...he seems to be able to act nice when he wants to...doesn't seem to have any guilt about what he does....fake salesman smile. Look up anti-social personality and see if it fits for him. You have lived with him for years...if any of it rings a bell, please take it seriously. This is not a disorder that has ever been cured.

>>You know and I know and I know we both know we're not all on the same team here. <<

I have read this entire thread...fascinating. I have to agree with your statement. My emotional reaction to the posts by one person in particular are very negative. I feel offended big time by whatever this person writes.

This forum is full of people who don't suspect that there are people out there without consciences. Such a thing does not occur to them. Maybe they even believe such a thing is not possible. After reading and absorbing all the things you have said about your husband, I would bet that he has a personality disorder and lacks empathy, and feels no guilt about lieing or "using" other people, you included. I don't think it is a case of "poor misunderstood and mistreated man" encountering so many disrepectful judgements and love busters from you as at least one obvious enemy helicopter on here at least implies.

If I am right and he is an anti-social, he will respond more to the threat of loss of money than anything else. Maybe the factor of divorce that would be most offensive to such a person would be having to pay spousal and child support ;-)

He could just be an a-hole, though. OCD is pretty clear, without a doubt, and his co-workers have always chided him on it--a long time ago he was fired for it because he was caught cleaning and neglecting his own job. But yet, he doesn't think he has a problem, it is GOOD to be super-clean, and it is other people, the ones who DON'T obsessively clean who have the problem. Like me. I'm a disgusting little sloth. lol.

NPD, BPD, AHD (a-hole disorder! lol)...who knows. If he won't seek out help and good advice, nothing will change. He said he took the advice of SH, and look where that got him! BLIND, I swear, just blind.

I myself have OCD. Since my male parent is anti-social, there is probably a brain chemistry connection between the two disorders. Does MB work for people with brain chemical disorders? There is no cure for anti-social disorder. Counseling doesn't work, there are no medications that work, electric shock doesn't work, jail doesn't help.... The other disorder often called a$$ h disorder is Aspergers Syndrome. But people with Aspergers are socially inept so I doubt that is his problem! I don't think your husband is just a run of the mill ah after reading your thread.

wow i wish i had time to read this whole thread. i stumbled into the wrong forum and saw this and i am amazed at all the kinds of problems there are besides affairs. i wish i had some really good advice for you, but does H know about MB? if he does, has he been willing to accept the concepts and make them his own? Does H see that there are problems within the marriage that are disturbing to you?

one thing that disturbs me about your situtation is when you tried to get your church involved. it isn't right that the pastor or whomever you asked for help to approach your H said he wouldn't or "couldn't". this just isn't like ANY church i have ever attended or been a member of. i know you said that attendance is in upwards of 20k people and you mentioned something about a CARE team. what have they said about approaching your husband? And if your husband is involved in the church as well, why wouldn't it be possible to schedule an appt for both of you to attend? just the fact that you were told that they wouldnt help you because H had to contact them, just totally boggles my mind. to me that is not a properly funtioning church, no offense. the church we chose to become members of, they become our family, and they should treat eachother as such. and most will help with anything they are physically able to. my church has helped me out tremendously, they even bought new locks and changed them when i got a restraining order on my H and had 3 dollars to my name because H wiped out my acct. I am so saddened that your church and it's elders are not willing to take such a simple step as you have asked. im so sorry. i hope it works out for you. God Bless

I want to say that I followed your link to the Game Plan video and watched and it was very helpful to both my husband and I. I was saying that I wished I lived near and got involved with a church like that. Then the last poster reminded me that they wouldn't get involved without the husband's request. What is up with that? I don't get it. They seem like such a great church and I was even getting a bit jealous that I could not be a member. I guess not for abused or neglected wives...

rofl! my husband probably has anti-social disorder and he defanitely has a$$ hole disorder, but i dont know if it is really aspergers.

Asperger's is on the autism spectrum. People with this disorder are commonly thought to be a$$ hs because they lack the ability to recognize emotion in people's faces. You can't empathize with something you don't recognize, and they come across as major jerks. They are also so literal in their interpretation of language they sound like androids, don't get jokes, puns, etc.