And is she aware that she may not be the woman you want to spend the rest of your life with?

She should be. One of the things she complained about after my statement was her surprise when I said "lately things have been much better between us". She said something like "maybe things have changed for you, but who says they have changed for me?" I told her to please keep me apprised of how she feels about us. I will do the same. As I have. I told her that recently I was content with "us", which was basically the first time I felt that way since day 2 of our honeymoon. I have told her for the past 15+ years that I am unhappy and for the past 6 have said I cannot see past the kids graduation. We had marriage counselling sessions where she said "he just said he is leaving when the kids leave". I replied that I couldn't say one way or the other. My recent statements of contentment would be seen in that context by anyone who was paying attention. My wife is far from stupid. She knows exactly where she stands. If not, it is because she won't allow herself to know. Not because I haven't told her.

Just yesterday she said something like "I never realized that side of our life was such an epic fail for you". Really? Never realized? After 8 years of marriage counselling? After countless private conversations? You thought I was PRETENDING to be unhappy about our sex life? REALLY?!?!?

This has prob been asked a million times. Have you guys attempted counceling with the Harleys?

Neither of us is willing to make the changes required. Not playing the martyr or the saint here. I am not any more willing to change than she is.

Why?

I am afraid.

Of what?

Your wife sounds controlling and maniupulative (and her methods work). She has not had to listen because what she does works.

Gg

Ditto

Fear of success. Fear of failure. Fear of change. Fear that whatever else I do will be even worse than what I have now.

What is worse than what you have now?

And how likely is it?

HOLD, find some men friends who are strong and won't put up with woman like your wife...and then emulate them.

Warning: victim puke ahead:

Bubbles, men who are strong and won't put up with women like my wife find me contemptible and don't want to spend time with me. Men are just as good at women at sniffing out weakness.

Hold, you do need to ask yourself a few questions.

What were you thinking her response would be to your bad joke?

Is your wifes response of "things not being better her lately", a defensive throw away? Or is there more to it and that you are not reading it?

What do you think your wife wants from a relationship (besides 10 million dollars)?

Hold the reality is that your wife chose you/ married you because she liked you. You really did not have to then do anything. All you had to do, is not mess it up.

You need to keep in mind that 19yrs of resentments on both sides will take more than a few weeks to unwind.

Frankly, I thought that she would agree with me. I can't imagine that inside her mind she thinks she is working toward having a great sex life FOR HER, or toward having sessions that are more physically pleasurable FOR HER. I cannot remember a single instance in which she asked for anything that would make sex better FOR HER. Except for me to hurry up and finish so it would be over.


Jack, my wife married me because she thought she was marrying big money and she thought I was "safe" - meaning I would not pressure her for sex. I am a fairly wimpy guy and it never occurred to her that asking for sex from my wife was going to turn out to be the only area of my life in which I relentlessly press for what I want. What she liked about me was in her head and not real. I have never been the guy she thought she was marrying. I tried to tell her that before we got married. She did not believe me.

Similarly, I thought I was marrying someone who found me sexually attractive. She said "to me, smart is sexy" and I believed her. But it wasn't true. She was never interested in the sexual side of our relationship. The signs were there before we got married, but I ignored them. She made excuses for why we didn't have as much sex as I desired and I accepted the excuses as being temporary conditions. Instead of looking at the bigger picture and realizing the pattern told the true story.

We will never meet each other's needs. I can live with whining and complaining and not getting my needs met. I am trying to see if she agrees that both of us are not getting our needs met. And won't be getting our needs met. But wish to stay together regardless. If she is saying that she is only interested in staying if I meet her needs, we have a problem.

Hold we all put our foot in it sometimes, that's life, but I do not know where you get your ideas from.
You can not harrass and embarrass your wife into being enthusiastic about sex. It wont work. It will be fatal. The position becomes almost irretrievable. I'm sure MB does not promote it. I do not know about the "nice guy site" I have not read any of his articles.

The thing is, each time you associate sex in a negative way to your wife, it reinforces that postion. The next time sex is thought of or about to happen your wife will remember the joke and her brain is going to say to her, "I am not enthusiastic about this." The chances of her then enjoying it are nil.

I understand exactly the mechanism you are describing. Remember, my wife recently said "I don't feel anything when you touch me down there, no sensation at all". As you say, I cannot get that thought out of my head. Any time we have sex, I am wondering what she is feeling, wondering why I even bother touching her, and it sucks all the enjoyment out of it for me. That is one factor in why I am so much less insistent on having sex with her these days. I don't enjoy it any more.

Jack, I don't expect my wife to ever be enthusiastic about sex. Or to enjoy it. We are already long past irretrievable. That is the point.

I am not trying to get her to have more or "better" sex with me. I am trying to get her to admit and accept she never will. I want her to stop trying to be more available, so I can feel better about not making as much money as she wishes I made.

I am the poster boy for why not doing MB is stupid. You don't have to be a jerk or evil to fail at marriage. You just have to stop meeting each other's needs. We lost it so long ago, and so completely, we cannot get it back. That is why I post to others "do MB, and don't be like me". Because I am living what happens when you don't. Even 2 well-meaning people can ruin each other's lives.

hold, what is the saddest about all this to me is that you have been here for YEARS and have never availed yourself of any Marriage Builders services. MB is completely different from any other program. I have seen Steve Harley and Dr Harley motivate spouses that HATED each other and turned it around.

Sex is not the problem. It is a lack of love.

It is so obvious that the basic problem in your marriage is that you and your wife have fallen out of love and therefore, have no motivation to correct the situation. THAT is what the Harleys are good at. Yet you don't avail yourself of one of the best programs in the US.

WHY?

ML, we coached for 2 years with someone who helped us implement the MB system. We filled out the questionaires. We worked to reduce LBs. We implemented POJA and tried to negotiate win-win agreements we could both be enthusiastic about. It never worked for us. Neither of us is willing to work toward meeting the other person's #1 EN. Without that commitment, everything else is just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The Harleys are not going to motivate me to be more successful at work. Without that, Mrs. Hold will never feel romantic love for me. And without that romantic love, she will never address her issues regarding sex.

This is, at heart, a problem of me not believing in me. No coach or therapist can convince me I can succeed. So none of them can convince me that it is even worth trying. I am convinced that I am doomed to failure, and that the best I can hope for is to just put one foot in front of the other and keep plodding forward until I die. I have no dreams, no ambitions, no goals and no hopes.

So yes, I can understand why my wife does not love me or want to have sex with me. I don't blame her. I wouldn't love me or want to have sex with me, either.

You have never coached with a certified Marriage Builders coach. I know who you coached with and she could never pass certification. That should tell you something right there. In order to be certified you have to successfully help a couple fall in love. If you can't do that, you are not certified.

Most couples that show up for the weekend have at least one reluctant spouse. My husband was not "committed" to Marriage Builders until he went to the weekend and was sold by the Harleys. That is often the case. The committment comes AFTERWARDS, not before.


But you can learn to be lovable and you can have a happy marriage. You are sitting on a goldmine and just won't go in.