Vibrissa,

EXCELLENT POST!!!! You did a better job of saying what I was trying to say in my initial response, which is that HOLD's approach is almost the polar opposite of what he should be doing to enforce healthy boundaries, and to actually promote a positive long term healthy outlook on life for his children.


This is what I meant when I wrote about actually reinforcing values from the inside out rather than the outside in. Short term pain, via confrontation/disappointment with his daughter, will in fact reinforce positive boundaries and life lessons that will translate into more happy and more emotionally healthy children over the long term. The current approach is putting the perverbial cart before the horse - the children have become the parents in this scenario. While it may be easier to adopt this model because it seems to make the kids happy, it's only a short term happiness at best, until the next "high" is required for the children to feel good not about who they are, but about what they get. Again, a key difference between living our core values from the inside out, versus trying to find our core values by the pursuit of "things" external to us.


The concepts you hit on here challenge what is at the heart of HOLD's current justification for maintaining his misery and for staying in his M. HOLD has maintained that he doesn't want to run any risk of not being with his kids (divorce), yet he continues to passive-aggressively punish Mrs HOLD for denying him what he wants (hence the DJ's being his mistress that he refuses to give up). I would be curious to get HOLD's input in regard to whether or not the reality is that he may in fact be doing more emotional harm to his own cherished children by staying married than if he were to cut his losses and get divorced. There are studies that show results either way (some studies have shown it's better for the children if the parents stay in a failed marriage, other studies show the opposite).

HOLD would probably agree with me that his justifications are self centered (it's about what HOLD wants - even at the possible expense of the long term emotional health of his own children), and extremely prideful (turtle pride - woe is me type approach to life). How do I know? Because I have struggled with the same inner battles of worthlessness, depression, and persistent pessimism that HOLD has. We both have depressive personalities. We both recognize the reasons why - at least intellectually, we are both otherwise intelligent and well educated individuals, and we are both fairly well accomplished in the eyes of most people career-wise (despite how we view ourselves).

So, with all that in mind, why don't guys like HOLD and I make better choices? Why do we keep making poor choices? If you can answer that question, then you are smarter than I am.


I'd surmise that there are a few reasons why. Probably the biggest reason is a lifetime of doing the above, and either not getting any response, or getting lip service that gives the appearance of understanding and agreement, only to see the same repetitive behaviors from our spouses again and again after the fact. In other words, no real change, no desire to change. Probably why we don't desire to change either. As HOLD has oftentimes said, if neither spouse is willing to really change, and neither spouse is willing to leave, then the status quo is the best that can be hoped for. Far from ideal yes.



Agreed, however if Mrs HOLD is either unable or unwilling to reinforce those agreed upon values, and in fact may passive-aggressively work against HOLD attempting to teach these types of life lessons to his children, it's a tough battle to say the least, and for a depressive like HOLD, it's a HUGE undertaking to fight that fight.

I know in my own lifelong marital struggles with my W's overspending on our children, on many occasions I've reached the point where I've simply given up fighting. As a depressive and a conflict avoider who struggles with anxiety, it is easier in the short term to simply withdraw. Over the long term I know it's not the right choice, and in fact the poor choices simply reinforce anxiety, depression, etc.

All of that said, I don't want to paint too ugly a picutre, so let me say, like in HOLD's case, Mrs Hitch and I have made some progress. Practically and logically I do see some progress - and therefore there is hope.

Probably the biggest struggle for me (and I'd guess potentially for HOLD), is that the financial issues are so raw because of the lifetime of dealing with them, that even in the face of logic, pragmatism, knowing some progress has been made, when setbacks occur (like with HOLD's current situation), it is extremely difficult to accept them and manage them constructively.