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CWMI #2482418 02/27/11 11:17 AM
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I'm lost. So he said a guy would test drive the car and it is a that is test driving? However the one purchasing the car is a female (sounds like they're purchasing the car since they're married)? I'm not sure if your analogy is correct since he's still meeting with a male.

It seems he might have been fishing for admiration on the potential to sell a car. I agree with you on why didn't get say the wife was purchasing the car and the husband was test driving

The two of you have completely different communication styles and a way of relating


Husband (me) 39
Wife 36
Daughter 21
Daughter 19
Son 14
Daughter 10
Son 8 (autistic)

kilted_thrower #2482425 02/27/11 11:43 AM
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They didn't show, so it's moot, but she was coming to drive and buy and was bringing her H with her, supposedly, but all H had spoken with was the W and the only contact information he had was the W's. The 'he' in the equation was basically an abstraction, lol.



Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2482427 02/27/11 11:47 AM
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IOW, H never spoke to or dealt with or even knew the name of the 'he'.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2482754 02/28/11 10:31 AM
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I think there is a difference between understanding and acceptance.

The reason I urge you to strive for understanding is not so that you can endure it better--but so that you guys can talk about it differently.

I guess I would imagine that your husband has his reasons for lying--even if they aren't good ones.

But how does talking about it in that way (you are lying and there is no excuse for it) allow him any way to move forward without feeling defensive?

I think that sometimes these persistent problem areas in marriage can reflect where a person needs to grow... or be healed (notice I am not saying "stay where they are").

I think you are on this journey together, and you guys have to figure it out together.

Maybe you don't agree. Maybe you don't feel it's your job to help your husband in his weakness... to help him with his flaws/faults... I don't know.

To me, understanding your personality types gives you a way into those discussions that can really help you each move forward. Him, to learn to be more truthful and direct, you to (possibly) accept the process a little more peacefully.

I do NOT think you ought to accept him lying. And I don't think that's what understanding brings. I think it brings people together so they can move forward as they make their marriage what want it to be. It gives them a gentle, loving, and peaceful way to talk about it without compromising what they need/want/expect from one another.


Me 42
H 46
Married 12 years
Two children D9 and D4 !
Telly #2482820 02/28/11 12:46 PM
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He can stop lying, Telly. That'd solve the whole problem. He can make that choice. I can't make him.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2482834 02/28/11 01:13 PM
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No, but you can make the surrounding circumstances more or less condusive to his making that choice. You may feel you shouldn't have to "bribe" him to tell the truth. He may feel he shouldn't be punished for telling the truth. Do you want to be "right", or do you want him to be truthful?


When you can see it coming, duck!
holdingontoit #2482840 02/28/11 01:48 PM
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My husband has STOPPED being deceptive with me (unintentional or not). He has STOPPED.

I am convinced that one of the reasons he stopped was because I approached him in a way that was about us each of us understanding where the other was coming from.

I don't think my H is any more or less interested in my marriage than your H is interested in yours.

I also do not think he is inherently more honest (not at ALL!!!).

He lied for some of the same reasons your H does... It wasn't important enough to have a "whole big discussion". He was trying to anticipate what might upset me. Frankly, it was just easier to lie.

I remember one day, he decided to go work at a coffee shop rather than his office, but he baldfaced lied to me when asked, and didn't tell me that he was going there until he was already there.

Well, I knew that was where he was going by the way he dressed. I was also able to figure out his other activities that day (shopping, etc).

Eventually he came clean, but it was painful for both of us.

THat kind of stuff used to happen to us ALL THE TIME. It was almost always over stupid stuff, and it drove me crazy.

It doesn't happen anymore.

I don't think it was my fault that he lied AT ALL. It was his choice, his decision, and his problem. I think he had been choosing the easy road for years, with all sorts of people.

Only then it became my problem... Or, more accurately, OUR problem.

So I worked WITH him to understand him better, and have him understand me better, so WE could conquer OUR problem.

I did whatever I could to help him change this pattern in his life (our life) until now I can report the problem is gone.

GONE.

At least with me. Sometimes I still hear him stretch things with other people, when I think the truth is just as easy.

Not my problem. I only care that he is completely, utterly, and totally honest with ME.



Me 42
H 46
Married 12 years
Two children D9 and D4 !
Telly #2482856 02/28/11 02:38 PM
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Hold, I don't punish him for telling the truth.

Telly, the difference between your H and mine is that mine was counseled by Steve Harley for six months and he's still lying. Want to know the brand-new, less than an hour old lie?

He told me that there was no way to access his work email from home. That he checked for me and with this new job, it just wasn't possible. LIE! I found out today, when he logged onto it from home. He's been out sick and since he NEEDED to, now, he did. Probably would NOT have told me if I didn't find out myself.

How's that? I'm furious. He's on the way to the lawyer. Again.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2482869 02/28/11 03:08 PM
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Why did you want him to check his e-mail from home?

Given that you have e-mailed people he worked for/with in the past, do you think it was possible he was nervous about giving you access?

Or is there some other reason he would not want to e-mail from home (aka "an affair")?


Me 42
H 46
Married 12 years
Two children D9 and D4 !
Telly #2482931 02/28/11 05:31 PM
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I wanted access, Telly. He said he would give it to me, IF ONLY HE COULD, sorry, he checked, wasn't possible, the company had no remote web access to email, it was held on their own servers.

It was all the ruse about being totally open with me, no more hiding.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2482951 02/28/11 06:31 PM
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Then he went on to say that he hadn't pursued it farther back then because he didn't think it was a big deal to me, since I stopped asking for it. Um, I stopped asking because he told me it was impossible to give. I believed him.

That was the reason he gave for pursuing access today, and not having done so back then.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2482979 02/28/11 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Then he went on to say that he hadn't pursued it farther back then because he didn't think it was a big deal to me, since I stopped asking for it. Um, I stopped asking because he told me it was impossible to give. I believed him.

That was the reason he gave for pursuing access today, and not having done so back then.

So was the lie that he never really checked on it?

Some of his 'lies' seem like perception to me...(like the shooting). But some seem like, well lies. I was married to a liar. It was maddening. And then he turned out to be a cheater.

Hope that is not your reality.

SmilingWoman #2483196 03/01/11 08:32 AM
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Okay, you wanted access.

I don't know that you can entirely trust the reasons he gives you for the lies right now. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can't.

If he felt comfortable being honest about WHY, he would probably not need to lie in the first place.

That's why I'm asking if you think it's possible he is nervous about you e-mailing people from work the way you did at his last job.

If I remember correctly, you actually wrote/called someone to check up on him (is he really with a client), as well as to reveal "lies" that he had told, and to intervene in one of his relationships with a guy you felt was using him. Am I correct in my memories?

My H would not want me to have access if he was worried that I was going to send ANY e-mails to ANY of his coworkers. Or that if I read things, we were going to fight about the choices he was making at work. And there was a time when he would have lied, rather than argue with me about his real feelings.


Me 42
H 46
Married 12 years
Two children D9 and D4 !
Telly #2483199 03/01/11 08:40 AM
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Have you guys ever talked about how he felt about when you've contacted people from his work and/or critiqued decisions that he made when he was going to work?

Is that something Dr. Harley approved of? I've often wondered... Because personally, I can't see how thinking that your spouse is going to intervene in work matters would lead to increased transparency.

I remember when I managed residence halls, and my husband made a couple of calls to people he thought should be taking care of a few things instead of letting me handle it.

I was humiliated and angry. It felt like a violation to me, and I am a pretty flexible person.

I can only imagine how your husband felt, when we know he is an "image management" person.


Me 42
H 46
Married 12 years
Two children D9 and D4 !
Telly #2483204 03/01/11 08:49 AM
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I can email his co-workers without access to his inbox. I can pick up a phone, I can show up. Blocking me from access does not change that. Blocking me from access only creates a place where he can receive filthy joke emails from young female coworkers (which he has none now) and photographs of young female coworkers scantily clad from stupid male coworkers (of which he has none of those now either).

The relationship I intervened on was using me, my family's resources.

Telly, maybe you should go back to when he changed jobs and what HIS intention was in doing so. At least, his stated intention.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2483206 03/01/11 08:57 AM
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You don't understand POJA, do you, Telly?

Steve told my H to POJA decisions about where and how much he worked, and yes I violated POJA by going straight to Dude about my problems with him borrowing our stuff all the time, but H also violated POJA by agreeing to it against my will. We were BOTH wrong. The SOLUTION is to get agreement.

So...he did agree to give me access to his inbox at work. He said it was important to him to show me that he had nothing to hide. Then he hid it. Durr.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2483257 03/01/11 09:51 AM
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CWMI, I am not going to talk about your husband's flaws. I'm not going to commiserate with you about what an awful person he is, and how terribly he has managed every decision, and how he is the reason your marriage is horrible.

I'm just not. Plenty of other people will, and that has it's place.

I'm going to focus on you, and what you are contributing. I'm going to talk about how your behavior may be interpreted in such a way that it doesn't help you get what you want. Which is honesty and successful POJA with your H.

Focusing on you does not in any way take away from anything your husband has or has not done.

With that in mind...

Have you actually tried to POJA your access to his work/e-mail etc? Have you ever talked to him about how he feels with regard to your past involvement with his work situation? Has he ever told you how he felt when you e-mailed Dude/called the secretary to check up on him/e-mailed his boss?

I cannot imagine him being enthusiastic about you ever doing that. I can also imagine him being nervous about it happening again. Can't you?

I would be. Even if the call to Dude was "about you", because it was "your families resources", it crossed a line. You know that, Dr. H already told you it was wrong.

But that wasn't the only time you stepped in, right?

Can you see how it might not feel safe for H to share open access with you? Can you see how he might not want to risk that again? Can you also see how it's possible that even talking with you about it would be hard? (Well, if he hadn't handled it that way, I wouldn't have had to do what I did...)

Furthermore, it is very hard to talk with someone who, even when they do something wrong, insists it is still your fault. It's hard to ever want to talk about anything openly and frankly.

If you want to POJA everything and anything with your husband, you MUST try to understand where he is coming from better. It can't be all about you and what you need (even if you think what you need is superior to what he wants, even if it IS superior), or you will never never never come to agreements that you both are GENUINELY enthusiastic about. And the arrangements will be destined to fail.



Me 42
H 46
Married 12 years
Two children D9 and D4 !
Telly #2483268 03/01/11 10:05 AM
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Yes, we POJA'd access. If we HADN'T, I would have harped on him until I got my way, don't you think? I'm not above strong-arming my way. I'm not above 'going over his head'. My problem here, with access, is that I DIDN'T, I believed him, and that bit me in the butt.

Yes, we talked about how he felt about me checking up on him. He did not like it. People who want to maintain a life separate from their spouse NEVER like being checked up on. So? What's your point? I should be happy for him to keep secrets from me, to maintain a secret life separately? You're nutz. smile

You seem very protective of his IB, Telly, and I can't imagine why.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2483274 03/01/11 10:15 AM
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Well, now you know he has e-mail access. How are you going to POJA the use of it between you? What are some of the things you are going to come to agreement on?

In my house, one of the things we actually include in POJA is his USE of e-mail (he likes to be on e-mail almost as much as I like to be on MB! LOL!).

Also, you want to agree with how the information you obtained is going to be used, right? What are you going to do, what kinds of conversations you are going to have about things you read there. I mean, are you going to try to influence work choices he is making based on what you read? Does he fear that? If so, how can you help each other feel good about it.

You have to make sure you are both completely on the same page in terms of you using his e-mail for any purposes. If he's nervous about that, can you alleviate his fears in any way?

Any thing else you think should be covered as you POJA the whole issue now that you know he does have e-mail access from home?


Me 42
H 46
Married 12 years
Two children D9 and D4 !
Telly #2483284 03/01/11 10:27 AM
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My ONLY concerns, my ONLY reasons for wanting access, is to confirm that what he tells me about events is the truth, and to know how he portrays himself and is seen as a husband (man?) outside of our home.

He tells me the truth, and corrects any false perceptions that he is anything other than a man devoted to his wife, and there is zero problem for me.

He welcomes inappropriate sexist emails, exchanges any correspondence about deceiving me, we have a problem. And rightly so. Regardless of how he 'feels' about it. It's a problem, and one I have the right to know about.

Do you think he has a right to privacy in regards to sexually explicit emails from coworkers?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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