Also ... to comment on her idea about 2 jars.

I don't think thats such a good idea as of yet. It may backfire on you and cause more resentment. Because what she THINKS should give you a deposit may not and vise versa and then to see efforts not working especially in light of a jar .. may cause a back slide and then the "taker" in each of you will notice the scores not even and try to convince you to get what you need by any means possible. I could be wrong .. Maybe it would work .. But if you were to do that .. suggest she read His needs her needs FIRST! to get a better idea at what all the needs are. THen let HER put that plan into action. Not you. You could mention it to her like this " thats a great idea hunny, I think that would be great! Lets work together at identifiying all DR. Harleys Ideas on what emotional needs are .. then that way we can figure out what to put notes in the jars for!"

To make that work ... SHE would have to put something in HER jar if you did something that made her feel loved etc. and you put something in YOUR jar if she did something that made you feel loved. The note could contain exactly what it was that caused the deposit.

*shrugs*

Edit for more details.

Thank you both, I have His Needs Her Needs on my nightstand, read about a chapter or so. I'll go get it right now. The intention of the jar is how you mentioned it at the end. We fill up our jars when someone fills or takes away. She is in charge of hers, I'm in charge of mine. Because feedback is such a problem this will give us the ability, particularly me, to know what she like or didn't like. It will also allow me to know when I've taken away when I probably to this day don't even know that I do! I find myself feeling sick to my stomach right now. She is sick, I brought her some chicken soup, bought four jars for our experiment on the way home. Why do I feel stupid that I'm so obviously giving her what she asked for? Did anyone else feel this way at first? I don't yet at this time feel confident that it will change to be honest. I will give her the benefit of the doubt that she does want to get love back in her marriage. She's admittedly been in taker mode for so friggin long, it is gonna take a bit to break out of it. This is so exhausting. After our big talk today she was obviously stressed and told me she was going out with her friend for the night. She never does this so its not a big deal other than the fact that her first instinct had nothing to do with my emotions or state of mind. She went straight to what will bring her spirits up you know? I told her that I had hoped we would spend time together tonight. She still isn't feeling well so that just might happen. All in all I guess there is progress but I'm still terrified her effort just won't be there. What do I do then? Don't answer that I'm sure you'll tell if we need to cross that bridge.

I'm downstairs early. We started the jar thing unofficially last night. She told me I had made two deposits and one withdrawal. The withdrawal was an annoying habit. I told my wife she made one withdrawl. I don't know how to classify it, I brought down the laundry basket to fold laundry and she quickly rejected my help, is it a DJ? Anyway, baby woke up about 4am, the heat was on cause it is cold out here, she snipped at me half asleep about the heat being on(its on every night, but for some reason when she is grumpy or uncomfortable she has me as her target). So this was one withdrawal. Second one was just a bit ago. She feeding baby, I'm lying on my side of the bed, she pushes my foot out of the way because she wanted to stretch her foot to my side of the bed. No big deal right? Well being that my number one emotional need which I've clearly stated to her is to be affectionate to me, this was completely the opposite which was "get away from me". This little gesture hurt and was clearly a big withdrawal. So after a big talk yesterday, working through some things, promising to "read every night" Dr Harley's books, she went straight to bed, didn't read, the made two withdrawals all before six am. I'm hoping once she wakes up and gets some coffee in her she'll remember her commitment and adjust to make some deposits down since I'm already 0-3. I prayed last night that God would open her heart and mind to all of this stuff.

Can you expand on this? What was said?

When she pushed your foot out of the way did she push it away and then withdraw? I push my dh's leg over all the time so I can put a leg on his side, but I want him to stay touching me, just in a way thats comfortable to me.

Are you reading into her intentions the most negative or positive possible explanation?

It was a quick, look you don't need to be perfect here and do the laundry. I know I have a pattern of assuming what my wife's intentions are, but I assume in this case that she was feeling guilt? Since the last post, we kind of had a mini-tif. I'm not good at hiding my annoyance with my wife, she spots it every time and asked me, so I told her. I told her the things that were withdrawals to my LB, she went by instinct to the "you're reading into it and I didn't mean it that way", which I quickly reminded her that those are my feelings and you can't tell me how I'm supposed to feel. She actually did say "I get it" which is a good thing. I also said I was concerned because no sooner did we just have a talk and agreed commitment that she pretty much ignored it starting with last night, early this morning, and then now. She did kiss me on the cheek which was nice, but I'll be honest my feelings being damaged as they were I assumed it was just a show. I won't make that mistake again, if she is trying, then I'll accept her affection no matter how she gives it. We continued our talk and she was going for a run for two hours. I have no problem with her getting away, she needs it, but I do have a problem with her automatically looking to do things that make her feel good without regard to me, you know? She said, "What is wrong with me running and getting exercise?" I said nothing, but that in our current situation I would thing some activities should be put on hold so that we can read and spend time together. She went running anyways. By the way I made her her favorite coffee, made breakfast for the kids, cleaned the dishes from the night before, tried to hold baby after we had our tif which she rejected which is bizarre. I can tell this morning she is feeling the inequity which might or might not be a good thing. So since about 4am she has withdrawn about 8 times with the 1 kiss coming in as a deposit. Mine is the opposite. I knew this would happen.

She pushed it away and pulled it back. We used to touch legs in bed all the time, but now she doesn't want to touch me at all. She told me that. This behavior and reluctance on her part to deal with issues is nothing new, she does it in every aspect of her life and I don't know why. She used to be in charge of the bills, but would put entire stacks of bills in the drawer out of site out of mind until we'd be paying late charges or getting accounts cancelled. She procrastinates all the time and I suppose this is no different. Due to the gravity of the situation I would think this would be different you know?

Ok knock down drag out fight just now. I told her I was gonna leave her. She must have a tough exterior because she almost looks like she enjoys this stuff. She said I ruined her day which is unbelievable. She is literally crazy I think, distorts everything, blames me for it all, its insane! Someone help me please I'm so lost, so upset, so sick to my stomach, and I don't know what to do. Not sure if there is anyone I can talk to on a Saturday but if there is I'd be willing to figure something out.

Hill, how did you react to her saying you didn't have to do the laundry? The way you post, I assume you had something along the lines of a hissy fit.

Why did you tell her you were gonna leave her? Are you? If you're not, why would you say such a thing? And then call her crazy???

Why don't you slow down, stop fighting with your wife, stop threatening her, and read the book?

I've read a book and a half man! I tried to get her to do the workbook with me, she keeps putting it off, everything is put off. Look I believe in the principles of this forum and Dr Harley, but you don't know what I'm up against. She won't try, period! I'm tired of pretending to make her feel better about ourself that "we are both responsible" for our current state. That is crap and a lie. SHE is responsible for this, has always been, and if nothing changes will be responsible for a divorce which hurts us and our three beautiful children. Selfish or not I demanded her to change starting NOW, now pushing it off for this or that. Yes I threatened my wife and I can appreciate the theory of not doing that and showing her what change looks like, but as I've said for years about this woman, nothing matters. I cannot control any outcomes or behavioral change no matter what I do on my end and never had. I'm sitting here terrified, hurt, scared about divorce, scared that she'll just push off something this serious again. Her Dad has let that vile mother of hers hurt him for 40 years of marriage, only having the courage to leave her about five years ago, only to come back after six months. I refuse to be helpless about my situation and let her do the same thing to me.

What exactly is she doing to you?

What is it that you want her to do now? Exactly?

You're full of BS that she is solely responsible for the state of your marriage, and until you ACTUALLY change that mindset, you're not going to get anywhere.

Threatening her makes you VERY UNATTRACTIVE. You realize this, right? If you stopped the threats, stopped engaging in arguments with her, you might be able to get somewhere. No action required on your part, only inaction! Can you do that? My H and I used to have huge arguments that would go on for days. You would be amazed at how that has simply *stopped*. You know how? I quit falling for it! Most of our arguments would be about me complaining to him about something he had done. He would bow up and get angry and start attacking me, and off we'd go! Now, I still complain if something bothers me, and sometimes he still bows up--but now instead of playing that game, I just say, "I only wanted to let you know that [whatever] is not okay with me. Now you know. We can talk about it if you'd like, but I will not be spoken to that way. If you raise your voice again, I'll leave the room and we can talk when you calm down." EASY. Try it.

You can search for the "When to call it quits" article. I wouldn't threaten divorce unless you really plan on doing something. There's nothing wrong with saying "I refuse to be in a marriage that involves X, Y, and Z" But I don't think you need to get mad and say, "That's it! I can't take it anymore...I'm divorcing."

I think it's perfectly okay to set forth what you will and will not accept in the marriage. You don't have to fight with her. Do drive by honesty. When she snips at you, "I don't appreciate you saying...." "I don't appreciate it when...." Do it right then and then drop it.

I don't think you're giving this enough time. Do Plan A. If nothing changes, go Plan B.

But, remember, you can't make your spouse do anything. If she's picked up these habits and has been doing them for years, it's going to take more than a couple of days for her to change. This is a process. And weeks/months later you're still working on them.

There's nothing wrong with expecting your ENs to be met back and for LBs to quit being thrown your way. You better make sure you're doing the same though.

ehm,hmm.

While reading your thread some questions came to mind.

- If you think your wife is a mean, egoistic, disfunctional character, why did you marry her? Did someone tie you to the altar and force you to say yes?

- If that is not the case, could it be possible that she is worn down (having a 4-month old and two other children and a husband who also wants things from her)

- You come across as being right most of the time and when you are not right, you admit it of course (you don't want to be so immature as your wife is)

- have you done anything fun lately? Because bugging her about reading HNYN or if she is irritated, saying I am going upstairs to read love busters.... is sure not going to make her fall in love again with you. It also is not going to make her mood better.

- you seem to be a smart person. come on. Sweep her off her feet a bit. Allthough... I had a depression though, after my 4th child, and the things which would be fun normally were very disappointing. If you are having feelings of despair yourself, could it be that the current stresses of your life are affecting you too? Because if that is the case, you may see thing differently when you are your own self again. Just think about it. If she is the person you willingly married, and you are going through a stressfull time, it is possible that it is affecting you in ways you do not realize. Please do something fun together which the two of you used to love. And no problem talk pleeeeaaaase. Just something fun. And if you do not have fun where you used to be thrilled, than you need to look a little deeper into the depression thing. Babysitters can be life saving!

You can do it. If baby gets 6 months old it will be a little better. If it is 1,5 years old it will get better still. And if it is 3, you will be back to normal again, or better of course. Hang on. You can save the family! Ride the storm out!

Oh, and please stop teaching her, or change your screen name to Mr. Wiseguy.
Being a know-all who tells her how to think is not sexy.

So you are saying if I read correctly, just do my thing filling up her love bank regardless of anything indefinitely? In the mean time I walk away from all fights , tell her when she hurts me nicely, and hope that she'll change? No offense to you all but prior to finding this forum I had unknowingly Bern the giver and her the taker for a long long time. By no means am I perfect but I'm a pleaser and I've worked a long time doing just that as it us my nature. My concern with this program is that my wife learned growing up that she doesn't need to accept responsibity fir her actions. every time I let her know she hurts me she just rejects it so how I compete with that?

Hill, how about giving Steve a call? He can help you organize a plan and get your wife on board. My marriage is far from perfect, but I don't think I'd still be married if I hadn't brought Steve into it. My H thought much like your W, that if I had a problem, it was my problem. He recognizes OUR problems now.

I agree completely with CWMI. I think investing in a few counceling sessions with Steve would be a good idea. Most of the women on here that have talked with him like talking to him and the way he relates to them. He seems to be pretty successful with 'breaking through' to people.

And no one is advocating sitting indefinately in an unhappy marriage.

My question is if you were to walk away right now, would you be 100% sure that you did all you could do to clean up your side of the fence and give the marriage 100% ?

And, yes, you call the spouse on all LBs when they do it.

I'll think about that. Yesterday started out rocky, but we did something fun with the kids, had lunch, etc. If nothing else it got the conversation started. We got to bed opened the workbook and she said she would let me read it to her. I read many of the LB's and EN's section and she wasn't mean about it, but I'd definitely say a little sarcastic about it. I got to the sexual fulfillment part and she blurted out, "that isn't gonna happen any time soon." This was like a dagger to my heart I realized later that night as I was trying to fall asleep. Why would she intentionally withhold one of my EN's? To be honest it made me consider the "other man" thing again. I definitely struggle with the honesty thing, but she was sleeping already and I'm scared to bring it up this morning. Everybody deals with their problems differently. I guess it also bothers me that she doesn't lose sleep at night over any of this stuff, or at least appears not to. I on the other hand am in agony about it all, can't eat, sick to my stomach. She did say that its "almost all my(her) fault about the affection thing" yesterday which was good. Anytime she admits anything it means we've made some progress. So here I sit this morning with the best of intentions, yet scared to even respectfully tell her that she hurt me last night with that comment and her somewhat sarcastic attitude about the workbook. Why wouldn't she want to participate with enthusiasm? In regards to the sex thing, its gotten worse over the years, we stopped kissing about 5-6 years ago when she had a tooth that had gone bad. The "breath" thing means its an automatic "no". This hurts. The "hop on" thing or "don't take too long" has been happening for a long time as well. At least it was something, now it is nothing at all with no sign of anything changing soon. I will say my persistence with this entire thing has caused there to be conflict so I'll consider the Steve thing, btw, who is Steve? I only know the name William Harley, right?

We talked a bit this morning about her "no sex anytime soon comment.". This makes me insecure big time. She said she "has no feelings for that yet" which I understand to some degree. I've never been insecure in this relationship until recently. Any ideas in how to not assume the worst about her lack of affection and desire for sexual fulfillment? Any ideas fir this insecure feeling in my stomach about the no sex thing? I wish no one brought up the other man thing otherwise I never would have considered it.

I'll consider, $225 for 40 mins is probably worth it, but no an expense I can throw caution at the wind at. Believe me, I won't blow it off. How would I go about getting her to talk to Steve anyways?