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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
so I gave the "huh I don't get it face".

Don't do that any more. smile

Yeah tell me about it, this is bigger than you think. We talked it through some more and realized that my faces are a big problem and she never figured it out until this morning. On the flip side when she says things that I take literally but she meant another way it causes problems as well. She asked if I could stop the faces and I said, "sure"! I asked if she could say what she means and mean what she says, and she said "sure"! So no more faces for Hill and communicate clearly for tgrace. Bing, bang, boom, two more LB's to put to sleep.



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smile


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by CWMI
Markos, I think you're confusing 'declining' with 'ignoring'. Declining a request is perfectly MB, and a spouse should not be berated for that. Ignoring is a whole other passive-aggressive way to escalate a problem.

I sent her three complaints I had and asked her to send me hers yesterday morning. This was specific to your advice you gave me on the "Love Bank" thread. I haven't even mentioned it since I wrote it. One of the specific issues I addressed was coming up with a POJA about appropriate times to get back to a text, email, phone call, etc. Technically we haven't agreed to an acceptable time on any of it, and I haven't mentioned it all day. I find it tough to initiate repeatedly. Don't get me wrong, we've had a great day, just having a hard time understanding the lack of urgency is all and want some insight.


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By the way, dday to kids asleep 2 hours! Then its hubby/wife UA time, very excited. Don't take the comment above as "stewing", especially you Markos.


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Ask her for a time to discuss it. I found it a pain in my heart to have my calls ignored, and now that my H actually takes them, my urgency about them is so much less. So answering you will actually work in both of your favors. You'll be less anxious and less likely to call or text, she'll be interrupted less, you'll both be happy. Come to the discussion with an ideal that would make you happy, ask her to come with her ideal, and negotiate a workable solution. Ihad the benefit of a Harley telling my spouse to answer the phone already! You may want to do that.

In other q's, why are you emailing complaints to each other? Do the worksheets! Gah, I didn't say, email a barrage of complaints, did I?


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Originally Posted by CWMI
Ask her for a time to discuss it.

And be prepared (for any issue, in general) not to resolve all conflicts immediately with one discussion. It is very important to plan for "incubation time." The first solutions you come up with will not be your best solutions. Carry a notepad (or mobile device) with you to write down ideas on all the time, and write down ideas for a week once you've both shared your perspectives. Then discuss the issue again in a week and look for ideas that both of you think would be great.

Hill, have you read this article yet:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

POJA is a noun. FGSN is the verb that gets you there. smile

Quote
In other q's, why are you emailing complaints to each other? Do the worksheets! Gah, I didn't say, email a barrage of complaints, did I?

CWMI is right, Dr. Harley's worksheets are designed to make it as safe as possible for you to share complaints and information with each other. Your accounts in each other's love banks are low right now. Your main goal is to build them back up; staying within the structure of those forms is a good way to try to pass information without starting a fight.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by CWMI
Ask her for a time to discuss it.

And be prepared (for any issue, in general) not to resolve all conflicts immediately with one discussion. It is very important to plan for "incubation time." The first solutions you come up with will not be your best solutions. Carry a notepad (or mobile device) with you to write down ideas on all the time, and write down ideas for a week once you've both shared your perspectives. Then discuss the issue again in a week and look for ideas that both of you think would be great.

Hill, have you read this article yet:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3350_guide.html

POJA is a noun. FGSN is the verb that gets you there. smile

Quote
In other q's, why are you emailing complaints to each other? Do the worksheets! Gah, I didn't say, email a barrage of complaints, did I?

CWMI is right, Dr. Harley's worksheets are designed to make it as safe as possible for you to share complaints and information with each other. Your accounts in each other's love banks are low right now. Your main goal is to build them back up; staying within the structure of those forms is a good way to try to pass information without starting a fight.

Yes I've read that link actually. Good night last night, good day today. No "faces" thus far as I'm very aware of it and my wife made a point on a few occasions to communicate a little more clearly to make sure whatever she said was not interpreted differently. Lovely day, lovely day.


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Great job, Hill! Keep up the good work!


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Wow when it "clicks" it "clicks", things are going well. There is a lot of work to be done and I want to be aware of that feeling of not trying and losing some progress as a result. LB's are mostly gone right now and we'll keep doing that. EN's are better but we have a lot of work to do here. More to come.


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Affection is still not good from my wife. This was my #1 EN and she knows that but yet when I hug her, I initiate always and she has this habit of dropping her arms to her side when I do. The other thing she does is do the "push off" when we hug as if to say "Ok, 3 seconds is enough". Body language is pretty powerful. When we kiss it is only a peck on the lips because, "my breath is bad". When we snuggle on the couch, unless I say, "lets spoon", she'll like down by my feet. Obviously no SF either, but that I realize will take some time. Clearly affection doesn't come easy for her and I don't know if that is how she is with everyone or just me. I don't think it is selfish to want my wife to want to be affectionate with me rather than going through the motions right? The no affection thing isn't a post-baby thing, its been going on for a long time. I plan on asking her about affection in general and see how she feels about it and why her body language speaks volumes. It hurts and creates no security on my end in this relationship. The strange thing is affection is one of her top 5 EN's.


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Patience, Hill, patience. The first thing you are going to need is to strongly reinforce your patience.

Your wife will feel more affectionate after she receives a LOT more care from you. A LOT!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Hill, we don't have to look too far back to see a number of love busters on your part. You've busted some holes in your account in your wife's love bank, and it's going to take a little while to fill it back up. And of course, filling is going to be impossible if you continue to make holes through love busters.

That is why I keep encouraging you to focus on making large love bank deposits, and I keep asking the question (which I notice you don't often answer): "What are you planning to do nice for your wife today?"


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Originally Posted by markos
Hill, we don't have to look too far back to see a number of love busters on your part. You've busted some holes in your account in your wife's love bank, and it's going to take a little while to fill it back up. And of course, filling is going to be impossible if you continue to make holes through love busters.

That is why I keep encouraging you to focus on making large love bank deposits, and I keep asking the question (which I notice you don't often answer): "What are you planning to do nice for your wife today?"

I'm not dodging the question about doing nice things for my wife. Saturday night, made her a Buffalo Mozarella Napoleon, made it look amazing, sent her a picture of it to her phone because she was upstairs. She came down looked at it, said, "what are we gonna eat with it?" Not a wow or a thank you, she just wanted crackers or bread with it. I got out some rolls and crackers and we ate it together. The reaction is what I want to point, she appears indifferent to nice things almost as if she doesn't want to give me the satisfaction of a complement or thank you. I got her a very nice bottle of wine to drink at my parents house because she loves pinot noir and my parents don't carry that. She liked the wine, but again, no reaction. I'm not looking for her to grab my hand and run upstairs to the bedroom by any means, but her body language and comments appear to me as her being either indifferent or oblivious to the attempt. I'll be doing something nice again today after work and I hope that my efforts are having an impact but that she isn't expressing herself when they do.
As far as LB's go, none for three days, and on a few occasions when I wasn't certain I asked her and she said no. Our avoidance of LB's on both sides has much, much better because we know what to look for.


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Go back and read Markos' post. It is very difficult to fill her Love Bank right now because of the holes you have punched into it. You have been guilty of some severe LB. She has withdrawn to protect herself. It's going to take awhile for her to come out of that withdrawal and accept that you're not going to attack her this time.

Stop expecting reactions. You are making small deposits. Eventually she will respond, if you have completely eliminated LB.

Patience.

3 days doesn't cut it. It's going to take much longer than that before she can trust you again.

Last edited by Prisca; 04/25/11 10:15 AM.

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Originally Posted by Prisca
Go back and read Markos' post. It is very difficult to fill her Love Bank right now because of the holes you have punched into it. You have been guilty of some severe LB. She has withdrawn to protect herself. It's going to take awhile for her to come out of that withdrawal and accept that you're not going to attack her this time.

Stop expecting reactions. You are making small deposits. Eventually she will respond, if you have completely eliminated LB.

Patience.

3 days doesn't cut it. It's going to take much longer than that before she can trust you again.

Yup.


In fact, stop expecting anything. Just do.

Write her a nice little note, and include things that she has done in the past that felt affectionate to you, that you liked.

I had to write FWW a list of affectionate gestures, because somehow she had brainfarted affection away.


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"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by Prisca
Go back and read Markos' post. It is very difficult to fill her Love Bank right now because of the holes you have punched into it. You have been guilty of some severe LB. She has withdrawn to protect herself. It's going to take awhile for her to come out of that withdrawal and accept that you're not going to attack her this time.

Stop expecting reactions. You are making small deposits. Eventually she will respond, if you have completely eliminated LB.

Patience.

3 days doesn't cut it. It's going to take much longer than that before she can trust you again.

Blind faith is tough when your experiences and history tell you otherwise. I'm not feeling confident that my efforts will lead to a change in my wife wanting to be more affectionate with me. I hope this confidence and belief changes over time however so don't give up on me. It is very difficult for me knowing that I can't do anything but work on myself and let the chips fall as they may.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I'm not dodging the question about doing nice things for my wife. Saturday night, made her a Buffalo Mozarella Napoleon, made it look amazing, sent her a picture of it to her phone because she was upstairs. She came down looked at it, said, "what are we gonna eat with it?" Not a wow or a thank you, she just wanted crackers or bread with it. I got out some rolls and crackers and we ate it together. The reaction is what I want to point, she appears indifferent to nice things almost as if she doesn't want to give me the satisfaction of a complement or thank you. I got her a very nice bottle of wine to drink at my parents house because she loves pinot noir and my parents don't carry that. She liked the wine, but again, no reaction. I'm not looking for her to grab my hand and run upstairs to the bedroom by any means, but her body language and comments appear to me as her being either indifferent or oblivious to the attempt. I'll be doing something nice again today after work and I hope that my efforts are having an impact but that she isn't expressing herself when they do.

Hill, you are doing great. Don't stop. Keep doing nice things for her, because it will have an effect. Your job is to become a nice guy. HER nice guy. A guy who cares for her. All the time, no matter what.

Here is a post that was shared with me awhile back about what is happening. It contains some comments a previous Marriage Builders poster received from Steve Harley over the phone:

Originally Posted by Extremely Lost
We also need to remain nice and communicate with our Ws. We should not LB or DJ no matter what. We should work towards giving affection to our Ws. Yes, I know you'll may say that W will not let me whatever..., but SH means the kind of affection that is under the radar. Things like notes, gestures, maybe little presents etc.. go a long way. His theory is called "rocks in a river" and it is something I hold onto EVERYDAY!

Rocks in a River: You find yourself on the bank of a wide river. It is too wide to jump across, and yet you still need to cross it. What do you do? You start picking up rocks and throwing them into the river. (These rocks are each small affectionate thing you do for your W). For the first 499 rocks, you see the rock hit the water, and then it dissapears. These rocks are sinking and landing on the bottom of the river. Eventually you get to rock #500 and it hits the water and part of it is sticking up above the surface. You now realize you are getting somewhere. You can finally see progress. For the first 499 rocks, you knew they were stacking up, but you had no proof other than common sense telling you that they were building up. We have to approach our relationships now as if every piece of affection is one of those rocks. We will not see any progress until a number of rocks have been thrown. However, just because we are not seeing these first 499 rocks does not mean they are not having an impact. Believe that they are, because they are.

(Original here, but it's embedded in a longer post: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1659425#Post1659425)

Keep tossing rocks in the river!

Quote
As far as LB's go, none for three days, and on a few occasions when I wasn't certain I asked her and she said no. Our avoidance of LB's on both sides has much, much better because we know what to look for.

Rather than asking her, stick to Dr. Harley's worksheets. Ask her if she'd be willing to fill out the SD, DJ, and AO worksheets and give them to you every week. If you don't get any one week, then ask her if she has a worksheet for you. Dr. Harley's worksheets are designed to help keep you guys from getting into fights over it. And you need to avoid fights at all costs!

It sounds like you are making great progress. She may not react for awhile, and that is OKAY!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by Prisca
Go back and read Markos' post. It is very difficult to fill her Love Bank right now because of the holes you have punched into it. You have been guilty of some severe LB. She has withdrawn to protect herself. It's going to take awhile for her to come out of that withdrawal and accept that you're not going to attack her this time.

Stop expecting reactions. You are making small deposits. Eventually she will respond, if you have completely eliminated LB.

Patience.

3 days doesn't cut it. It's going to take much longer than that before she can trust you again.

Blind faith is tough when your experiences and history tell you otherwise.

Whoa, nobody's pointing you toward blind faith! Have you reread the Basic Concepts recently? Specifically, the Love Bank? The Love Bank model is not blind faith, it's based on tons of evidence acquired through Dr. Harley's clinical psychology practice. It has worked for literally thousands of couples, on this forum, through books, through Dr. Harley's counseling and practices that followed the same principles.

Every thing you do has an effect on your wife. That is the Love Bank model. No blind faith here; solid decades of Dr. Harley's experience.

Quote
I'm not feeling confident that my efforts will lead to a change in my wife wanting to be more affectionate with me.

Not after three days, no! smile

Quote
It is very difficult for me knowing that I can't do anything but work on myself and let the chips fall as they may.

I know what you mean. A lot of men find this hard to deal with. We want to fix things, we want to make things get better, we want to force a solution.

And if we are not careful, that desire will lead us to do things that are seriously damaging to our relationships with our wives.

You are going to have to relinquish control and come to grips with the fact that it is not all up to you. And you are going to have to let your logic and reason dictate a rational plan that you will stick to (making love bank deposits), rather than letting your emotions drive your actions.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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I'm not feeling confident that my efforts will lead to a change in my wife wanting to be more affectionate with me.
I'm guessing she's not feeling any confidence that your efforts to fill her love bank are going to have any sticking power either.

Quote
Saturday night, made her a Buffalo Mozarella Napoleon, made it look amazing, sent her a picture of it to her phone because she was upstairs. She came down looked at it, said, "what are we gonna eat with it?" Not a wow or a thank you, she just wanted crackers or bread with it.
Do you want a ticker-tape parade? You've done a nice thing. Whoopee. I have no doubt she's done nice things for you in the past that have been unappreciated, as well. So now that you've done one (or two or three) it's supposed to be all hearts and roses and "gee what a swell guy"?

Unless you are a master actor (and based on what I've read, I really do not think you are inscrutable), your wife now knows that her reaction wasn't good enough for you.

Mozarella Napolean +1
Implicit Criticism -1

As a lovebank-drained wife, I'll tell you there's a strong undercurrent of "prove it". And when the balance is so low, the burden of proof is is awfully high.

Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience. Patience.



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Hill, there are some great suggestions here for you to incorporate into your plan to make love bank deposits:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5010_qa.html

It doesn't have to be expensive fancy wine every night. The little things count, too.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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