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HoldHerHand #2505310 05/04/11 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by CWMI
I would feel like the biggest piece of you-know-what if something I said to someone else made my H weep. Good thing, he has no feelings. lol.

Or you might feel relieved, or sane. Or you might be ticked, cause it would be another lie on the pile, KWIM?

This makes no sense to me. Would you elaborate?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
HoldHerHand #2505316 05/04/11 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
So, he doesn't have a "pout and punish" MO when you take a chunk out of his backside?

Just curious...

Who took a chunk out of whose backside? Wouldn't that make him a narcissist, to have the action of, "Oh, that hurt? Well here, let me do it again, HARDER, just to prove that I don't hurt you"?


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2505318 05/04/11 12:34 PM
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Last edited by SmilingWoman; 05/04/11 03:26 PM.
CWMI #2505321 05/04/11 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by CWMI
I would feel like the biggest piece of you-know-what if something I said to someone else made my H weep. Good thing, he has no feelings. lol.

Or you might feel relieved, or sane. Or you might be ticked, cause it would be another lie on the pile, KWIM?

This makes no sense to me. Would you elaborate?

To use your wording here, if he showed some semblance of emotion, you might feel a little less like you married a "sociopath."

Or, it could be quite infuriating that the man has been purposely hiding any and all feeling from you.

The "stone face" isn't pleasant to live with, and I only dealt with it for 2 weeks.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
CWMI #2505322 05/04/11 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
So, he doesn't have a "pout and punish" MO when you take a chunk out of his backside?

Just curious...

Who took a chunk out of whose backside? Wouldn't that make him a narcissist, to have the action of, "Oh, that hurt? Well here, let me do it again, HARDER, just to prove that I don't hurt you"?

Uh, yeah. That's why I asked.

Does he have a habit of retracting his interactions with you when you call him on his bull?



"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
HoldHerHand #2505334 05/04/11 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by CWMI
I would feel like the biggest piece of you-know-what if something I said to someone else made my H weep. Good thing, he has no feelings. lol.

Or you might feel relieved, or sane. Or you might be ticked, cause it would be another lie on the pile, KWIM?

This makes no sense to me. Would you elaborate?

To use your wording here, if he showed some semblance of emotion, you might feel a little less like you married a "sociopath."

Or, it could be quite infuriating that the man has been purposely hiding any and all feeling from you.

The "stone face" isn't pleasant to live with, and I only dealt with it for 2 weeks.

Thank you. I understand that! I'm game for all-out. I'm already furious, I can deal with infuriating stuff since I learned to control my AOs. I'm game for growth. Bring it! laugh

It wouldn't be like it was the first time he deceived me. I would be relieved, actually, if he owned an emotion, and if he would admit to any ownership of my feelings or experience? Elation is what I would feel. Even if it was "Hell yeah I wanted to hurt you, I wanted to drag your soul into hell." I would feel relief and elation that he owned anything at all.

That's so sad!

Immagonna own something right now...already owned it to H...after he told me about the cancellation of our anniversary, I didn't want to talk to him. He's rang the phones (both cell and home) a dozen times, leaving nasty messages about me not answering. That's terrible of me. I don't like it when it's done to me, I shouldn't do it. I hung up on him when he started yelling at me about how he hadn't lied about planning the weekend, he *assumed* (see first post in this thread for full explanation of why I don't buy that), I was so mad that I just stopped and was done with it. I eventually returned his calls and told him that I couldn't talk to him. So, that's me, that's what I did. I don't see anything positive coming out of this unless he will admit that he misled me to believe that the weekend was secure and that we already had plans for it.

He thinks it's okay to lead someone to believe something, and then change it. The weekend it is changed to is the weekend before my maymester finals. He told me back in February that he needed to pick a weekend to have off before June, but he'd convinced his boss to give him the first weekend IN June off for our anniversary. I would have chosen another weekend, earlier this year, had I been given the chance. I'm full out of good weekends, and he typically leaves me like this: with no good choices left. I hate that.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
HoldHerHand #2505339 05/04/11 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
So, he doesn't have a "pout and punish" MO when you take a chunk out of his backside?

Just curious...

Who took a chunk out of whose backside? Wouldn't that make him a narcissist, to have the action of, "Oh, that hurt? Well here, let me do it again, HARDER, just to prove that I don't hurt you"?

Uh, yeah. That's why I asked.

Does he have a habit of retracting his interactions with you when you call him on his bull?

He has a habit of deflecting blame, either claiming that [whatever] was taken wrong, or that something was misunderstood. He rarely makes plans with me, but yes, when he does, they are rarely kept. Calling on bull is a theme, but is not present in all of those.

We do spend a lot of time together, but most of it is unplanned. We'll decide Friday morning to go out Friday night, neither of us really plans anything else that keeps us apart, and usually we're good about planning for work or school events that step into the regular family time of evenings and Sunday, and let each other know. The anniversary w/e is something outside of the regular schedule. I'm just pissy because I was told I had a special weekend planned, and it was only a fantasy "If".


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
SmilingWoman #2505342 05/04/11 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
CWMI....your lack of empathy is what upset me so much on my thread.

And you come across this computer screen as very unyielding.

No one wants to be divorced at age 40, however, I was surprised at the relief I felt to have my now XH out of my life. Not just because of his adultery... day to day life with him was very difficult.

I am amazed daily at how wonderful and easy life with my dh is. Even with the issues of a blended family we get along so well. My dh's mother told him a few years ago, regarding his now XW...'Mr. SW, she just does not bring out the best in you.' That phrase has stuck with me because I can see how it applied to me and my XH too.

I would not have divorced him though. I also would not encourage anyone to get divorced over issues like that. I did however, give up on the marriage being a great marriage. That is probably not very MBish...but it worked for me. I found a measure of peace and I enjoyed the other parts of my life A LOT.

Maybe I wasn't clear? Don't post to me. Leave me alone.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2505359 05/04/11 02:12 PM
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CWMI, when was the last time you two filled out ENQs and LBQs and exchanged them?

Have you ever tried to go through Dr. Harley's workbook together?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2505368 05/04/11 02:36 PM
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Markos, I've tried bringing him back to MB after our 6mos of coaching, but he thinks it's bunk and not of the 'real world'. The last time we did either Q was last year during coaching. He's not on board, thought it was manipulation.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2505371 05/04/11 02:44 PM
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I honestly and truly don't think he has the capacity to consider someone besides himself. He's a fantastic salesman, though, and sold me through marriage and several children. He's very good at mirroring, and making people think he is just like them. I certainly thought he was a different person than he has turned out to be, and other people see him completely differently than I do...he is interested in different things depending on who he is talking to. I think sales fits him. He is very good at faking caring.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2505388 05/04/11 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
I honestly and truly don't think he has the capacity to consider someone besides himself. He's a fantastic salesman, though, and sold me through marriage and several children. He's very good at mirroring, and making people think he is just like them. I certainly thought he was a different person than he has turned out to be, and other people see him completely differently than I do...he is interested in different things depending on who he is talking to. I think sales fits him. He is very good at faking caring.

This is so outside of my pay-grade.

I take it he is not just "good," but a rather successful salesman?

Bleh. He sounds like a status-seeker who found a trophy, and can't even bother himself with taking the time to take care of it.

I don't want to sit here and bash your H, there has to be a redeeming quality somewhere... anywhere... I don't know.

But I can't tell you how to make him value his marriage and his family. It also seems that whatever you try, he doesn't get it.

... reverse psychology? The bigger the turd action, the more EN-meeting you pour on?

I. Don't. Know.

My head would explode.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
CWMI #2505397 05/04/11 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Markos, I've tried bringing him back to MB after our 6mos of coaching, but he thinks it's bunk and not of the 'real world'. The last time we did either Q was last year during coaching. He's not on board, thought it was manipulation.

Could you tell him, honestly, that continued participation in this program is a requirement for you?


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
markos #2505410 05/04/11 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by CWMI
Markos, I've tried bringing him back to MB after our 6mos of coaching, but he thinks it's bunk and not of the 'real world'. The last time we did either Q was last year during coaching. He's not on board, thought it was manipulation.

Could you tell him, honestly, that continued participation in this program is a requirement for you?

Honestly? It would have to be the online program. And I'm not ready to divorce if he doesn't.

I must be sick in the head!!! No wonder he doesn't take me seriously. If i slip into D-land, I won't come back. If I separated, it would be permanent. I can't love someone and block them out. If I block someone out, it's permanent. I had one boyfriend that I got back together with, and never again! Gah, it's worse the second time around. When I'm done, I'll be done and there won't be any discussing it. I'm not *there*. That's my problem. I can't put him out until I'm fully done with him, and I can't get him to take me seriously unless I put him out. At which point I won't care if he wants to please me, because I will be thousands of miles away (at least emotionally).


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2505451 05/04/11 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by CWMI
Markos, I've tried bringing him back to MB after our 6mos of coaching, but he thinks it's bunk and not of the 'real world'. The last time we did either Q was last year during coaching. He's not on board, thought it was manipulation.

Could you tell him, honestly, that continued participation in this program is a requirement for you?

Honestly? It would have to be the online program. And I'm not ready to divorce if he doesn't.

I must be sick in the head!!! No wonder he doesn't take me seriously. If i slip into D-land, I won't come back. If I separated, it would be permanent. I can't love someone and block them out. If I block someone out, it's permanent. I had one boyfriend that I got back together with, and never again! Gah, it's worse the second time around. When I'm done, I'll be done and there won't be any discussing it. I'm not *there*. That's my problem. I can't put him out until I'm fully done with him, and I can't get him to take me seriously unless I put him out. At which point I won't care if he wants to please me, because I will be thousands of miles away (at least emotionally).

Would I be terrible to tell you that you are absolutely nuts?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
HoldHerHand #2505457 05/04/11 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Would I be terrible to tell you that you are absolutely nuts?

hahaha....no.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
Enlightened_Ex #2505658 05/05/11 10:56 AM
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CWMI-

I hear that you don't want to be a single mom to 4 kids. Personally, I wouldn't either.

What can you do, so that when your husband behaves like he has, again, that it won't affect you so much?

You know the quip about the definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. How will you stop your insanity?






inrecoverynow #2505754 05/05/11 01:16 PM
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I could drink copious amounts of alcohol or have a steamy sordid affair with an 18-year-old freshman at my school. Or both! laugh

I'm kidding, of course. I have no idea. If he is a sociopathic narcissist, there's nothing I CAN do but remove myself.

He makes no sense to me, at all! With the overheard conversation thing, he was back to his benefit-of-the-doubt plea, that if only I would give him the benefit of the doubt, everything would be fine. Then two days later, I find out another thing I gave him the benefit of the doubt on--planning our anniversary weekend--blew up all over me. I mean, it makes sense that someone without empathy would argue that the problem is that the other person is disappointed, not that they themself disappointed anyone, because they are perfect and wouldn't DO something like that. That makes sense in an 'understanding personality disorders' way.

I am also terrified of NOT being around when he has the kids, assuming he would actually take them, and I think he might as many other people have reported that their ex suddenly wanted to be father of the year, and his public image rests a lot on him being able to say this or that about his kids. If we lived apart, he wouldn't hear about anything to relay to others, he would have to actually participate. Right now he can get away with an hour every evening, but if we hit visitation there would be full days where he would have them, maybe even full weeks. It almost seems that the thing to do with a PD parent is to maintain the ability to be present for all interactions with the kids. He hasn't done anything that would warrant a court ordering supervised visitation, and the kids are too young to have a say. KWIM? It's not like he beats them, but as I asked him the other day, "Did you just use sarcasm as a discipline tool with a 6yo?" AFAIK, that's not illegal or deemed dangerous to a child. It's just ugly and non-productive.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
CWMI #2506009 05/05/11 11:42 PM
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CWMI -

I have not been here much, but see you have reactivated this topic of yours. I don't know how to get your husband to do it, but he should try something besides sales, something totally different, to force himself off the path of least resistance for his personality. What I am saying is that it sounds as if he has gravitated to a vocation which is easy for him, but my guess is it is not satisfying for him. He would rather be doing something else.

Have you explored that with him? Very few wives are brave enough to help their husband transition from a lucrative line of work to something which makes both husband and wife happier by being something really satisfying, something they always wanted to do or to be. You sound like that kind of woman. Ask him.


Me: 61
Dear Wife: 58
Married: 35 years
Retread #2506028 05/06/11 06:12 AM
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I asked him to take a persoanlity disorder test I found online (one of the non-jokey ones) and it resulted in Very High for narcissism and histrionic, High for OCD. The others were all low, it checks for markers of about ten different PDs.



Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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