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Absolutely, markos. I believe in MB, and I believe it takes two to work. You're absolutely right about that, no bones about it. It doesn't work unless both people come on board. My H *pretends* to meet my needs "There's no travel! I can't get online access! I booked our weekend away!" and it's LIES, markos. I'm not talking about some guy who flounders or forgets to pick up milk. I'm talking about someone who consciously and intentionally lies to continue a fantasy where he is perfect. You're absolutely right, that is what HE is doing that is ruining your marriage. But again, can we talk about what YOU are doing? The problem with having a reluctant spouse is that you can't get them on board when you've got blind spots that justify continuing in the behaviors that are bothering them. Yes, that's a DJ. It is also sadly, my life. The thing about disrespectful judgments is that there was always a respectful way to say the same thing, without being disrespectful or judgmental at all. You have a choice. You can talk about the problems and the things he is doing wrong without committing a DJ. You don't have to show us how bad it is by your language. We know how bad it is. You can talk about it without going over the top. As an example, I thought that paragraph was pretty good, but "continuously" is hyperbolic. When I get hyperbolic like that, I know that Prisca is going to feel that I am being disrespectful. Because I am! And "to continue a fantasy where he is perfect" is your own judgment of his motivation. No matter what tests you have given him, it is disrespectful to try to tell someone what they think like that. Instead of I'm talking about someone who consciously and intentionally lies to continue a fantasy where he is perfect. You can instead say: My husband has repeatedly lied and is telling me all the blame in our marriage lies with me, and I am hopping mad about that. No assertion that he continuously lies. No judgment of why he's doing it. Just a relation of cause and effect: he has lied, he is blaming you, and it makes you mad. If you tell yourself that you have no choice but to be disrespectful, you will continue to justify your abusive responses to his behavior. But it's not true that you have to respond this way, and it's not true that you have to talk this way when you describe your marital problems.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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By your willingness to stay, you demonstrate to your husband you will tolerate his behavior.
With your behaviors, doing many of the very same things, you tell him that such behaviors are really OK.
What ACTIONS are you taking, not just words, but real actions, are you taking to say that such behaviors are neither acceptable, nor will you tolerate them any further? This isn't saying anything I haven't already said myself, EE. I know what I need to do. The only actions I'm taking at this point is attending college. Okay, took a break from posting this, the phone rang, it was H. I asked him if he had booked anything yet for the second-choice weekend. He said no. I told him that I was struggling with the disappointment of him doing this to me again (more on that later) and I wasn't willing to accept seconds on something I had looked forward to so much, that I didn't think I'd be able to properly appreciate it because of my disappointment so I'd rather plan something new, how did he feel about planning a family weekend instead? He said okay, he understood, he was sorry. My biggest issue here is the timeline, if that makes sense. Here is my 'more on that': the standard timeline is that he assures me of changes that I've requested, I believe him, everything is great for a while, then wham! I find out months later that what he told me wasn't true. It wasn't true that the new job had no travel or spouse-excluding cocktail parties, it wasn't true that he could not give me online access to his email, it wasn't true that he had booked our weekend away. So it's the in-between time when things are great that bothers me, because all this while HE knows it's based on a lie, but I don't. So I question my happiness; I was happy because we were getting along well and enjoying each other, but the whole time he knew about this timebomb in his pocket. So I was only happy because everything I knew was wrong. It's absolutely maddening. I hope I get approval of the board for planning something new for the new weekend instead of allowing him to shift me around at his convenience again. Good? Bad? I don't know what else to do, all I know is I would have hated to settle for second.
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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The reason we are not progressing is because he doesn't care if those things bother me. CWMI, I�m really feeling your frustration over all of this. I was reading your thread religiously back when I was really struggling through the end of my marriage, but I will admit I�ve missed a few weeks so correct me if my observations are off� It sounds like everyone one really wants to help you, and I hope you see that I want to help too. I just remember when I first came here I didn�t realize how often I DJ my ex. And here�s the kicker: since I was reared to be the �submissive wife.� I rarely *voiced* any of my DJs toward my husband but the disrespect I felt for him was evident in the way I carried myself, the tone of my voice when I talked to him, things like that. I never meant to be that way, it was how I was. And I couldn�t see it, but others could. So I mean it with the utmost care and respect for you when I say, I honestly think toning down the DJs is a good starting point for you. It might not change your husband the way everyone says it will, but it may help reduce your personal level of anger, stress, and frustration. That radio snippet Markos posted talks about how some people are born to be thoughtless and finding a motivation (that means something to them) that is strong enough to help them overcome this tendency. It seems like you have observed that he will not change. At the same time, leaving your husband is unacceptable for you because a) you think it gives him freedom from the responsibility he took on when he married you and had 4 kids, and b) you are concerned that you won�t be able to as effectively manage/provide for the kids if you divorce, and c) you are pretty sure you�d effectively become a single mom because his past behavior indicates he wouldn�t be very involved if you and the kids moved out. Life stinks but divorce would make it stink worse. So it sounds like you are stuck. And you don�t know how to make things better. Because he isn�t going to change. And you feel justifiably angry and frustrated that you�re in this place. Let�s just say he doeshave NPD. Then what? I know you didn�t actually SAY he didn�t care, you said �He said no, like a true narcissist who doesn't care about other people, lol." But let�s just say he REALLY doesn�t care about people. Or, more specifically, let�s say he cares about pleasing others outside the home but doesn�t care and won�t ever care about making CWMI happy. If you�re going to stay with him for the next 5, 10 years� How are you going to make YOUR life better? How are you going to make things easier, less frustrating, more fun for CWMI. Forget about the marriage for a quick second: if he�s not going to change� what can you do to make CWMI less stressed? What is one thing you can do today that even if your husband never changes will make CWMI�s life better tomorrow?
"If you will stop feeding your feelings, then they will stop controlling you" -Joyce Meyer
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Daisy, the one thing I'm doing today (well, not technically today) is going to college, which I find terribly fulfilling and stressful in the most wonderful way. I've secured THREE scholarships for next year, which nets me an income. One is a state scholarship for my GPA, it pays 100% of my tuition, and the other two are from the department of my major. I am the student leader of our literary organization and will be in charge of many events over the year (besides putting out the magazine), many of which I was assistant on for the last year. I love all this!
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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"If you will stop feeding your feelings, then they will stop controlling you" -Joyce Meyer
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markos--are you converting my word 'consciously' to 'continuously'?
Is it a DJ to say someone is conscious? He did say he knew about the weekend thing; he said he talked to his boss and got a verbal okay for the weekend in question, so that's why he told me he had it off. But he never got it in writing, something he knew was required <<his words. I asked him, nicely, "Did you talk to boss and remind him that he gave you a verbal?" No, he did not. He just put in for a replacement weekend since he 'knew he would never get that one approved now with the scheduled event.'<<his words.
His words: "I know I screwed up."
My words: "Yeah. Stop it."
What do you think of the change in plans? Planning something new rather than trying to have a romantic weekend knowing I've been pushed aside for work--again? We're taking the kids camping.
I don't know how I'm going to get through the day of our anniv. knowing he's at a big work event instead of with me, like he promised. I'm madder cause the whole thing was his idea. The event is during normal hours, I would have been deliriously happy with planning an evening out instead, if I had only been informed. Now an evening out is a HUGE LETDOWN from a romantic weekend in a swanky hotel--we already asked my brother to come keep the kids!!! omg, I need to call him...no, H needs to call him. Right.
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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In some ways, we have similar husbands, CWMI. I've heard the same remarks about "feelings" from my DH that you hear from yours.
But with your anniversary, I believe your DH made a genuine mistake. I think he had all intent to go on that romantic weekend. I believe he got a verbal ok and forgot to do a written follow-up and set the plans in stone. He probably figured he'd take care of wrapping up the details in the short term, and things fell off the radar.
I think he forgot to secure the plans,and once it was too late, he realized his error and felt sheepish about it.
And I also believe he is afraid of hurting you and of your wrath over his forgetfulness.
But if he was just blowing you off way back in Feb. and didn't intend to go, your brother wouldn't have been asked to come keep the kids. NPD's wouldn't make that type of move, only to have egg on their face. Neither would a sociopath.
Live, love, and laugh because the best is yet to come!
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Btw, my DH recently had a major "ah, stink" moment. Our anniversary is this month, but we decided to celebrate at a concert in June. DH and DD got a promo code discount for tix and this concert event is/was going to be a combo DD's 15th bday gift, DS' 1st bday gift, and our anni gift/ celebration. We purchased the tix several weeks ago. Well, last week DH called me from work to tell me there is no PTO from the last week in May until the last week in June. I stayed calm with him over the phone, but had to get out the house for a good cry after relaying the message to DD. No PTO = no concert for my DH. They are all hands on deck during that PTO black-out. Lo and behold, at the time when my DH had called me about the PTO situation, he didn't even remember the concert. He was just letting me know about no PTO. When he got home after work, and I wasn't home, he called my cell to see where I was. (I had told the kids I was going to pay some bills.) I said I was in a parking lot crying, and he said "Parking lot crying? That's weird! Btw, I'm home." I told him that I was sad about the change of plans for the concert and that I'd be home soon. You know, my DH was thinking "Oh, crap, I forgot about the concert" when I told him in the tearful phone conversation from the parking lot. (He just let me know this as I'm writing to you.) Also, (he just admitted this to me as I inquired) my DH hadn't secured the PTO several weeks ago when he originally ordered the concert tix. (He says he was planning for putting in the PTO, but forgot.) So, here I've been thinking this past week that my DH's original call about the PTO was to let me know he wasn't able to attend the concert. When it was just him letting me know there was a company wide PTO black-out. Silly me.  He just said, "You're mad, aren't you?" My reply, "Nope. I'm not mad." And I'm not. I'm used to it. No need to kick a guy in the nuts when he's already feeling sheepish. But it does make me, as I write this, wonder how much I do assume in my convos with my DH and how often he allows me to believe whatever it is I'm assuming, even when he knows my assumption is incorrect or off. I have to say, I can really relate to what you're going through at times, CWMI. Just thought I'd share my crazy anniversary situation with you.
Live, love, and laugh because the best is yet to come!
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Btw, my DH recently had a major "ah, stink" moment. Our anniversary is this month, but we decided to celebrate at a concert in June. DH and DD got a promo code discount for tix and this concert event is/was going to be a combo DD's 15th bday gift, DS' 1st bday gift, and our anni gift/ celebration. We purchased the tix several weeks ago. Well, last week DH called me from work to tell me there is no PTO from the last week in May until the last week in June. I stayed calm with him over the phone, but had to get out the house for a good cry after relaying the message to DD. No PTO = no concert for my DH. They are all hands on deck during that PTO black-out. Lo and behold, at the time when my DH had called me about the PTO situation, he didn't even remember the concert. He was just letting me know about no PTO. When he got home after work, and I wasn't home, he called my cell to see where I was. (I had told the kids I was going to pay some bills.) I said I was in a parking lot crying, and he said "Parking lot crying? That's weird! Btw, I'm home." I told him that I was sad about the change of plans for the concert and that I'd be home soon. You know, my DH was thinking "Oh, crap, I forgot about the concert" when I told him in the tearful phone conversation from the parking lot. (He just let me know this as I'm writing to you.) Also, (he just admitted this to me as I inquired) my DH hadn't secured the PTO several weeks ago when he originally ordered the concert tix. (He says he was planning for putting in the PTO, but forgot.) So, here I've been thinking this past week that my DH's original call about the PTO was to let me know he wasn't able to attend the concert. When it was just him letting me know there was a company wide PTO black-out. Silly me. He just said, "You're mad, aren't you?" My reply, "Nope. I'm not mad." And I'm not. I'm used to it. No need to kick a guy in the nuts when he's already feeling sheepish. But it does make me, as I write this, wonder how much I do assume in my convos with my DH and how often he allows me to believe whatever it is I'm assuming, even when he knows my assumption is incorrect or off. I have to say, I can really relate to what you're going through at times, CWMI. Just thought I'd share my crazy anniversary situation with you. I'm sure my own W could come up with stories like these. It's not NPD, not Sociopathic... it's the fact that I live life by the seat of my pants. W is a very detailed planner. She refers to herself as OCD. Again, this comes down to two different types of people, two different types of planners. If it comes down to it, you have to help each other even out without treading LB waters. This can be difficult - remind pleasantly.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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I had many experiences like this with my ex, with companies that are now bankrupt. B doesn't even use these folks as references. Momentary gains for now-gone companies, but now my kids will grow up in a broken home. Such is life. I hope like in the When To call it quits article, the one with the sexless marriage, you are able to find the outside help to get the message across while you are still enthusiastic about making it work. Whatever you think.
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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I hate it when divorced people start encouraging everyone else to get divorced, too. What a nasty, untrue comment to make. How many folks do you help IRL make their marriages better in tangible ways like watching their kids so they can get time alone together?
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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This isn't about 2 different types of planners. Although I have to agree it's about flying by the seat of one's pants (which both my DH and I do). And it isn't necessarily that we don't plan. We just have that many proverbial "pots on the stove".
I also have to say that normally I wouldn't have cried over a concert. I usually take things in stride...I've had way worse anniversaries....but the thought of not having my DH with me makes me very sad. We've had a very rough past 18 mos dealing with a handful of serious issues and I was looking for a good get away from reality for a few hours.
However, I think CWMI's situation is much different from mine in the way her husband approaches things. In the case of their anniversary celebration, I believe this time he was genuine. But in the past, he's been happy to tell her one thing while doing something different. That New Orleans trip she had to jump through hoops to go on this past autumn is a good example of what she is dealing with normally.
So CWMI does try to plan together with her DH, only to find out at the last moment, her husband has run a different itinerary than the one he led her to plan with him. If she doesn't like it, too bad, he's sticking with his itinerary and CWMI better change her ("their") plans to accommodate what he has known all along, but kept from her. Crazy-making if you ask me.
It's also the reason so many her have told her to plan S with D. But CWMI isn't ready for that. And we can't tell her to detach, because that's going to leave her in a very vulnerable position (one that Dr Harley says is ripe for an A). As long as she's angry, she's still invested in the M.
Live, love, and laugh because the best is yet to come!
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CWMI, your academic achievements are awesome and it's great that you have income from the scholarship(s). know what? When I read that post, it dawned on me those are the types of achievements and go-getter perspectives that you and your DH have in common.
If you want any chance of salvaging your M, then you are going to have to find the common ground that you and your DH share. And share it.
Live, love, and laugh because the best is yet to come!
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Hey CWMI, I can't get on here as often as I like, so I don't really understand all the flame stuff, but there's some info on the hey daisy thread I thought would be good for you... if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to repost it here...?
"If you will stop feeding your feelings, then they will stop controlling you" -Joyce Meyer
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We actually had a really good day yesterday. He had the little ones paint pictures for me, and ds14 did a pencil drawing of the word MOM with four little hands built into the letters (well, three little and one 'Sasquatch' hand--he plays guitar and definitely has the hands built for it) with a really nice letter attached. H made breakfast, we packed up a picnic and went to a nearby waterfall and ate and hiked, then went out for dinner, then sat on the back porch for HOURS talking after the kids were down. We had a bottle of Dom in the fridge that H brought home from one of his events that he suggested we save for our anniv.--we drank it last night, lol. I told him it was the best Mother's Day I'd ever had, and he cried. So he's not completely unfeeling.
I *think* he may be ready to deal with issues with his father. I'm trying to encourage without pushing. He was the one who brought up the topic, but yeah, I think a lot of our issues can be tied back to the rage H feels.
He's also enraged about one old friend of his who he never hears from. Yeah, he was wide open last night, it was wonderful. Anyway, he was saying how much it bothered him that this guy never calls, never inquires into H's life, after all, "He saved my life!" I looked at him and said, "So now he owes you?" bwa-ha-ha, that sounds so heartless writing it down, it would be hard to relay the entire conversation, it was really a good moment of clarity for both of us.
It was a great day.
About the 'two types of planners' thing--I'm with RMJ, this isn't about a pantser with a planner. This is about withholding relevant information. He just sent me a calendar that he received at the beginning of the year from the owner with dates that they are closed for holidays and dates that nobody may request off. Our anniv. is on there as a blacked-out date for time off. He said he was SURE he'd sent me that calendar when he'd gotten it. We went through my email, no calendar. I know I've never seen it. Why he didn't consult it, I have no clue. But now I know he was told he could NOT have that weekend off--in writing--a few weeks before he told me he had gotten it off.
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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Hey CWMI, I can't get on here as often as I like, so I don't really understand all the flame stuff, but there's some info on the hey daisy thread I thought would be good for you... if you wouldn't mind, I'd like to repost it here...? If you'd like to post to me, I have this shiny thread here, ready for it.
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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Ok, here it is: Sometimes I hear myself yelling after my son, and I stop and say to myself, "Did I really just SOUND like that???" My speech to him (and his dad every couple months when he calls, lol) is MUCH better and MUCH more respectful now.
We really don't realize how harsh we can be.
Do I think I was justified in some of my judgments, disrespectful as they are? sure I do. The man quit his job (for no reason other than I don't want to work anymore) when we already couldn't paid bills with our two incomes, then ran up both our cards (behind my back) buying into "business opportunities" and wining and dining people who thought he was a millionaire, lost six figures of home equity loans (I don't know what happened to the money), tried to drug me, and beat my kid senseless. Told me he knew I'd find a way to cover all these bills b/c if not I'd lose my security clearance, hence my job. And he was right. Even on active duty military I still worked another job on commission (making the same as my military salary) and then a 3rd job and still couldn't cover the expenses he was running up. And then, after the divorce, I found out that he'd had an EA with one of my best friends. My mom tried to tell me about it while we were married, but I thought she was just being paranoid.
So yeah, when I criticized him internally, I think I was justified.
But even people who fail their families and marriages are still people. And deserve to be treated with respect. As bad as he was, I still could have cleaned up my side of the street.
And in cleaning up my side of the street, I have made a MUCH better life for myself. I never would have believed you if you told me that getting rid of the DJs (as right as they may seem) helps to keep my blood from boiling. I kinda now live with the knowledge that people do dumb things, disrespectful things, mean things, selfish things. They do me wrong. And while I try not to be that way myself, every once in awhile I am. So I let them have their moments. "live and let live." My stress levels are WAY down.
So I was hoping I could explain to CWMI is that she has the power to make her life better for herself and her kids. Not perfect, if her husband never comes around the way she wants, but BETTER. And who knows, if he enjoys being around her more, if she finds away to meet that need for admiration that he is so very motivated to get from the workplace, then maybe he will begin to soften to her. But even if she doesn't, her life can be so much less frustrating.
A funny thing is, now a days I actually see MORE times when *I'm* the selfish/dumb/mean one, but not in a "beat myself up" kind of way... more like a, "Oh wow, I cut that guy off when I made my turn. I didn't see him. Oops" where as before I would not have realized I was in the wrong and would have thought to myself "what a loser, why is this guy honking at me? he needs to learn to drive."
Don't worry if you think I'm crazy, I already realize my mind is still a work in progress, lol!
Unfortunately, even though I'm better at DJs, I still have a problem with "big mouth itis." This thread has my name in it, so this is not a T/J is it? Lol! See, I love to tell funny stories about myself. Being in the ministry so long, I have a very transparent life. Very few secrets, and none that would make anyone blush. Unfortunately, I sometimes forget that other people generally DON'T like people to tell funny stories about their lives. I was out with a group of girls tonight, including the cute/nice guy from church. I was in the middle of telling them a story about the last man I dated when I remembered what a girlfriend and I had discussed after the last time: He's probably not asking you out one-on-one because he doesn't want to end up as one of your stories!!!
One of these days I'll get it right!
"If you will stop feeding your feelings, then they will stop controlling you" -Joyce Meyer
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It is not a DJ to tell your spouse that they are LBing you. The stuff about him lacking empathy are WORDS FROM HIS OWN MOUTH. The NPD stuff is from his own self-reported quiz. That I did not demand he take.
I don't think I really need to get into his DJs, his attempts to 'straighten me out.' When he says these things to me, I respond with things like, "I just told you that it hurt me. Why would you say it didn't?" That's not a DJ.
It's not a DJ to desire that your spouse get help if they need it, and thoughtfully request that they do. He had a tough day yesterday, so he came home and vacuumed the top of the door frames. I'm torn--I do think we should have self-soothing strategies, and there are certainly worse ones than cleaning, but it has so often come with verbal abuse that I brace when he takes out the cleaning stuff. He's read up enough on OCD to know that it's a self-soothing thing, so I'm frustrated that he still claims he can't relax because we/I neglected to leave the bathroom spotless or didn't dust the top of the door.
Last edited by CWMI; 05/10/11 08:01 AM. Reason: early posted, didn't finish!
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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For whom are you circling back on that?
I kinda handle you with a ten foot pole attached to a ten foot pole, CWMI.
But, there is one thing burned into the front of my brain in this whole thing - the proud way you will let people know that "Steve Harley said my H is a jerk." Or however it works. How glaringly satisfied you are to place it all squarely in his lap.
That's fantastic.
How's it working for you so far?
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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I never said that SH said any such thing.
Daisy posted what she was saying about me in another thread, I read it as saying that I needed to drop the djs even if they are 'justified', and I was responding to her.
It was wonderful to me for SH to suggest OCD. I had driven myself crazy trying to meet the housekeeping needs of a person who would never be satisfied because he has to do it himself as a soothing mechanism. It was a relief, HHH. Now H can go off and instead of feeling inferior and trying harder to p,ease him, I can refocus on telling him not to speak to me that way. So far, he's done nothing about dealing with OCD, which is actually fine with me so long as he doesn't blame the rest of us. Life is messy, clean it up. Lol.
I don't see why you needed to make the ten foot pole comment. If you feel you must stay away from me, please try harder! Lol.
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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