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Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I didn't know what to do nor how to handle it, but I do now. This isn't a false promise whatsoever. I'm just an idiot and never understood what I was doing.


So present your detailed plan, and let's critique it. How are you planning on protecting your wife?

I requested before some help in formulating the plan with you. I know in my head what I need to do to avoid LBing my wife and protecting her. That to me is making sure I do two things:

1. Asking rather than assuming at all times.
2. Avoiding fights at all costs.

I honestly don't know how to write out a detailed plan but I'm sure you can provide some examples or suggestions for me? I WANT help and I desperately need help.


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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by markos
Despite your grand realization, you still have a problem. The cheery attitude you are projecting indicates that you are not taking this problem seriously. It looks for all the world like you want us to quit talking about that problem ASAP.

Quote
You keep asking the question and I continue to answer which is all I can do on my end

Wrong, my friend. If you think all you can do is TALK, you are missing the real work which is to be done.

Yes I still do have a problem. How does my cheery attitude indicate me not being serious?

Because your wife is injured every time you engage in demands, disrespect, and anger. When you have a victim, a cheery attitude is not appropriate.

I didn't know that Markos. I read LoveBusters and I don't recall that part. Did Dr Harley specifically address making sure you don't give yourself a pep talk to make sure you avoid DJ's and AO's? You are throwing so much at me and I'm not sure why you are doing it. I like to be cheery, my wife likes me to be cheery, and I think it best to remain positive, cheery, and focused to protect my wife.


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Hilltopper,

I'm not sure about Markos, but at least from my perspective, a feeling of cheeriness is not the feeling of resolute determination. I associate cheeriness with flightiness and distraction. What your wife needs is focus, concious thought at every moment, every interaction. You truly need to "THINK before you speak", meaning you are literally pausing and considering the words you've heard PRIOR to opening your mouth. This giddiness is a distraction. Buckle down and do the work.


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Originally Posted by aBetterMe
Hilltopper,

I'm not sure about Markos, but at least from my perspective, a feeling of cheeriness is not the feeling of resolute determination. I associate cheeriness with flightiness and distraction. What your wife needs is focus, concious thought at every moment, every interaction. You truly need to "THINK before you speak", meaning you are literally pausing and considering the words you've heard PRIOR to opening your mouth. This giddiness is a distraction. Buckle down and do the work.

This is what is so tough about forums, particularly for people like me who verbalize much better than communicate via words. I was happy how the entire day went yesterday and I wanted to share that with you all. I wasn't remotely concerned about me, I was happy that I did all of the things you say above. I didn't utter a word, nor send a text without thinking about how my words would sound to my wife. I asked her what she meant if I wasn't sure. I didn't make any assumptions. For example, she declined the bath that I offered her after dinner. She said "maybe tomorrow night". I said sure and was done with it. I didn't assume she was rejecting my attempt to make her happy, in fact I didn't assume anything. If my expression of cheerfulness came off as "everything is fine now" then I apologize as that was not my intention. Everything is not fine and I'm making every effort to not head down the path I have before.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I requested before some help in formulating the plan with you. I know in my head what I need to do to avoid LBing my wife and protecting her. That to me is making sure I do two things:

1. Asking rather than assuming at all times.
2. Avoiding fights at all costs.

I honestly don't know how to write out a detailed plan but I'm sure you can provide some examples or suggestions for me? I WANT help and I desperately need help.


You need to identify what triggers you. From the outside looking in, it looks like you fly off the handle with DJs when your wife doesn't meet your demands. And yes, demanding that she meet your EN and refusing to allow her to say "no" is STILL a demand and abusive.

Why do you Demand that she meet your EN when she doesn't feel like it? Is it your right to have your needs met? Do you deserve to have your EN met at her expense?

You are also big on making assumptions, which you have already identified.

Not too long ago, I was the DJ Queen. I believe I have successfully eliminated them, and I can tell you what I did. Dr. Harley has forms for this, as well, and I suggest you fill them out. Your plan needs to be tailored to you, and it needs to be approved by your wife. Your plan also has a deadline, a time frame that your wife agrees on. If you do not successfully eliminate the DJs by the deadline, you need to both agree what you will do to get outside help -- I suggest you contact the Harleys at that point.

Here's what I did:
1. Shut up
2. Eliminate anything that causes me to dwell on Markos' mistakes and that would reinforce DJs in my mind (journaling, venting)
3. Empathize with Markos

The first step is SHUT UP. When you find yourself irritated with your wife, when you start thinking that she SHOULD do this or SHOULD do that, when she's not doing what you want, when she's expressing an opinion you don't agree with and never would, then SHUT UP. Don't say anything. Just listen.

You also need to eliminate ANYTHING that causes you to dwell on your wife's mistakes. Do you journal? Cut it out. Do you vent? Cut it out. Do you keep score? Cut it out. Anything that lets you focus on her mistakes rather than on the progress she is making.

Then, empathize with your wife. Does she have a right to feel the way she feels? Is the way she feels valid (the answer is always YES, btw). Is the way she sees things equal to your view? (YES). Why is she feeling the way she feels? You need to work on seeing things from her point of view, and accepting that her point of view is just as valid as yours. Do not make assumptions. Do not demand that she just do what you want. UNDERSTAND her.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by miggityMarkos
Because your wife is injured every time you engage in demands, disrespect, and anger. When you have a victim, a cheery attitude is not appropriate.

I didn't know that Markos. I read LoveBusters and I don't recall that part. Did Dr Harley specifically address making sure you don't give yourself a pep talk to make sure you avoid DJ's and AO's? You are throwing so much at me and I'm not sure why you are doing it. I like to be cheery, my wife likes me to be cheery, and I think it best to remain positive, cheery, and focused to protect my wife.

You are looking at it wrong.

You see what Markos said?

"Your wife is injured... your cheery attitude is not appropriate."


You took a knife, placed it in her gut, twisted... and now you want to smile?

Are you a serial killer?

Cheerful is not the appropriate response when we injure our spouse, concern and care is. Yes, we should be pleasant, but I too would be worried if my wife were cheerful after injuring me.

Last edited by HoldHerHand; 05/10/11 12:25 PM.

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Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I requested before some help in formulating the plan with you. I know in my head what I need to do to avoid LBing my wife and protecting her. That to me is making sure I do two things:

1. Asking rather than assuming at all times.
2. Avoiding fights at all costs.

I honestly don't know how to write out a detailed plan but I'm sure you can provide some examples or suggestions for me? I WANT help and I desperately need help.


Quote
You need to identify what triggers you. From the outside looking in, it looks like you fly off the handle with DJs when your wife doesn't meet your demands. And yes, demanding that she meet your EN and refusing to allow her to say "no" is STILL a demand and abusive.
Quote

Yes this is correct. I also assume things which causes me to feel wronged and make demands when I have no reason to do so.

Quote
Why do you Demand that she meet your EN when she doesn't feel like it? Is it your right to have your needs met? Do you deserve to have your EN met at her expense?
Quote
I make demands instinctively because I think I might get my needs met when in reality I am causing the opposite to happen. I have no right to have my needs met, haven't earned that yet. I want to agree when the time comes on everything with my wife, including but not limited to how and when my needs are met. Again, I'm not worried about this at the present time.

You are also big on making assumptions, which you have already identified.

Quote
Not too long ago, I was the DJ Queen. I believe I have successfully eliminated them, and I can tell you what I did. Dr. Harley has forms for this, as well, and I suggest you fill them out. Your plan needs to be tailored to you, and it needs to be approved by your wife. Your plan also has a deadline, a time frame that your wife agrees on. If you do not successfully eliminate the DJs by the deadline, you need to both agree what you will do to get outside help -- I suggest you contact the Harleys at that point.
Quote

May I ask what a deadline range might look like? I don't want to make it unrealistic, but I also don't want to make it too long.

Here's what I did:
1. Shut up
2. Eliminate anything that causes me to dwell on Markos' mistakes and that would reinforce DJs in my mind (journaling, venting)
3. Empathize with Markos

Quote
The first step is SHUT UP. When you find yourself irritated with your wife, when you start thinking that she SHOULD do this or SHOULD do that, when she's not doing what you want, when she's expressing an opinion you don't agree with and never would, then SHUT UP. Don't say anything. Just listen.
Quote

Haven't had a chance to test this yet as I haven't been irritated about anything. A lot of this has to do with how I view things differently.

Quote
You also need to eliminate ANYTHING that causes you to dwell on your wife's mistakes. Do you journal? Cut it out. Do you vent? Cut it out. Do you keep score? Cut it out. Anything that lets you focus on her mistakes rather than on the progress she is making.
Quote
No journaling, venting, or score keeping. She can do whatever she wants, I'm really trying to eliminate doing the same things that got me in to trouble before.

Quote
Then, empathize with your wife. Does she have a right to feel the way she feels? Is the way she feels valid (the answer is always YES, btw). Is the way she sees things equal to your view? (YES). Why is she feeling the way she feels? You need to work on seeing things from her point of view, and accepting that her point of view is just as valid as yours. Do not make assumptions. Do not demand that she just do what you want. UNDERSTAND her.
[quote][/quote]

Did that this morning actually. She said she felt overwhelmed about the house. I didn't try to "fix the problem" like I usually do to eliminate her feeling overwhelmed. She doesn't like that. I merely told her that "I get it."


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I requested before some help in formulating the plan with you. I know in my head what I need to do to avoid LBing my wife and protecting her. That to me is making sure I do two things:

1. Asking rather than assuming at all times.
2. Avoiding fights at all costs.

I honestly don't know how to write out a detailed plan but I'm sure you can provide some examples or suggestions for me? I WANT help and I desperately need help.


Quote
You need to identify what triggers you. From the outside looking in, it looks like you fly off the handle with DJs when your wife doesn't meet your demands. And yes, demanding that she meet your EN and refusing to allow her to say "no" is STILL a demand and abusive.
Quote

Yes this is correct. I also assume things which causes me to feel wronged and make demands when I have no reason to do so.

Quote
Why do you Demand that she meet your EN when she doesn't feel like it? Is it your right to have your needs met? Do you deserve to have your EN met at her expense?
Quote
I make demands instinctively because I think I might get my needs met when in reality I am causing the opposite to happen. I have no right to have my needs met, haven't earned that yet. I want to agree when the time comes on everything with my wife, including but not limited to how and when my needs are met. Again, I'm not worried about this at the present time.

You are also big on making assumptions, which you have already identified.

Quote
Not too long ago, I was the DJ Queen. I believe I have successfully eliminated them, and I can tell you what I did. Dr. Harley has forms for this, as well, and I suggest you fill them out. Your plan needs to be tailored to you, and it needs to be approved by your wife. Your plan also has a deadline, a time frame that your wife agrees on. If you do not successfully eliminate the DJs by the deadline, you need to both agree what you will do to get outside help -- I suggest you contact the Harleys at that point.
Quote

May I ask what a deadline range might look like? I don't want to make it unrealistic, but I also don't want to make it too long.

Here's what I did:
1. Shut up
2. Eliminate anything that causes me to dwell on Markos' mistakes and that would reinforce DJs in my mind (journaling, venting)
3. Empathize with Markos

Quote
The first step is SHUT UP. When you find yourself irritated with your wife, when you start thinking that she SHOULD do this or SHOULD do that, when she's not doing what you want, when she's expressing an opinion you don't agree with and never would, then SHUT UP. Don't say anything. Just listen.
Quote

Haven't had a chance to test this yet as I haven't been irritated about anything. A lot of this has to do with how I view things differently.

Quote
You also need to eliminate ANYTHING that causes you to dwell on your wife's mistakes. Do you journal? Cut it out. Do you vent? Cut it out. Do you keep score? Cut it out. Anything that lets you focus on her mistakes rather than on the progress she is making.
Quote
No journaling, venting, or score keeping. She can do whatever she wants, I'm really trying to eliminate doing the same things that got me in to trouble before.

Quote
Then, empathize with your wife. Does she have a right to feel the way she feels? Is the way she feels valid (the answer is always YES, btw). Is the way she sees things equal to your view? (YES). Why is she feeling the way she feels? You need to work on seeing things from her point of view, and accepting that her point of view is just as valid as yours. Do not make assumptions. Do not demand that she just do what you want. UNDERSTAND her.
Quote

Did that this morning actually. She said she felt overwhelmed about the house. I didn't try to "fix the problem" like I usually do to eliminate her feeling overwhelmed. She doesn't like that. I merely told her that "I get it."

Shoot, botched the quotes, sorry!!!


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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by miggityMarkos
Because your wife is injured every time you engage in demands, disrespect, and anger. When you have a victim, a cheery attitude is not appropriate.

I didn't know that Markos. I read LoveBusters and I don't recall that part. Did Dr Harley specifically address making sure you don't give yourself a pep talk to make sure you avoid DJ's and AO's? You are throwing so much at me and I'm not sure why you are doing it. I like to be cheery, my wife likes me to be cheery, and I think it best to remain positive, cheery, and focused to protect my wife.

You are looking at it wrong.

You see what Markos said?

"Your wife is injured... your cheery attitude is not appropriate."


You took a knife, placed it in her gut, twisted... and now you want to smile?

Are you a serial killer?

Cheerful is not the appropriate response when we injure our spouse, concern and care is. Yes, we should be pleasant, but I too would be worried if my wife were cheerful after injuring me.

I totally understand where you are coming from. I was pleased at how I treated my wife yesterday and wanted to share that with you. I also felt a very deep love for my wife and shared that with you too after I did with her. Believe me I'm not walking around the house whistling ZippideeDooDah.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I want to agree when the time comes on everything with my wife, including but not limited to how and when my needs are met. Again, I'm not worried about this at the present time.

You DO need to be worried. You know of the skills but are still a student. You need to be hyper-aware of every interaction. It is still likely you will feel hurt when your expectations of her behavior get the better of you. Today is an "up day", tomorrow could easily be a "down day". You may make a mistake and AO or DJ your wife. Habits do not change overnight.

Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Haven't had a chance to test this yet as I haven't been irritated about anything. A lot of this has to do with how I view things differently.

Again, be hyper aware. You are LEARNING to see things differently but until you REACT in a different way, you are stil a student. Tests will come. Be sure you handle them appropriately.

Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
No journaling, venting, or score keeping. She can do whatever she wants, I'm really trying to eliminate doing the same things that got me in to trouble before.

Be careful because you HAVE kept score in the past. This has caused you to DJ and AO your wife when she hasn't lived up to your expectations. Again, habits die hard. What specifically are you going to do to recognize when you are keeping score and what are you going to do specifically to curb it?

Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I didn't try to "fix the problem" like I usually do to eliminate her feeling overwhelmed. She doesn't like that. I merely told her that "I get it."

You should follow up with a question, such as "Is there anything I can do to help?". In my book, that would show affection, effort and domestic support.






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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
May I ask what a deadline range might look like? I don't want to make it unrealistic, but I also don't want to make it too long.
Dr. Harley says that when you have gone 4 weeks without a DJ, you have eliminated them. I would put 4 weeks from today down as my deadline.

Quote
Here's what I did:
1. Shut up
2. Eliminate anything that causes me to dwell on Markos' mistakes and that would reinforce DJs in my mind (journaling, venting)
3. Empathize with Markos

Quote
The first step is SHUT UP. When you find yourself irritated with your wife, when you start thinking that she SHOULD do this or SHOULD do that, when she's not doing what you want, when she's expressing an opinion you don't agree with and never would, then SHUT UP. Don't say anything. Just listen.

Haven't had a chance to test this yet as I haven't been irritated about anything. A lot of this has to do with how I view things differently.
You don't need to test it. You are making your plan right now. Write it down on your plan and DECIDE that you are going to follow it.


Quote
Quote
You also need to eliminate ANYTHING that causes you to dwell on your wife's mistakes. Do you journal? Cut it out. Do you vent? Cut it out. Do you keep score? Cut it out. Anything that lets you focus on her mistakes rather than on the progress she is making.
No journaling, venting, or score keeping. She can do whatever she wants, I'm really trying to eliminate doing the same things that got me in to trouble before.

You've kept score in the recent past, Hill. Your plan needs to acknowledge that.

And I don't believe that she can do whatever she wants. You have been demanding, and demands do not allow your spouse to say "no."

Quote
Quote
Then, empathize with your wife. Does she have a right to feel the way she feels? Is the way she feels valid (the answer is always YES, btw). Is the way she sees things equal to your view? (YES). Why is she feeling the way she feels? You need to work on seeing things from her point of view, and accepting that her point of view is just as valid as yours. Do not make assumptions. Do not demand that she just do what you want. UNDERSTAND her.

Did that this morning actually. She said she felt overwhelmed about the house. I didn't try to "fix the problem" like I usually do to eliminate her feeling overwhelmed. She doesn't like that. I merely told her that "I get it."

Are you going to put it on your plan?

This plan needs to be written down. It needs to have detailed steps, such as I suggested. And it needs to be presented to your wife for approval.

So what does your plan look like at the moment?


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Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
May I ask what a deadline range might look like? I don't want to make it unrealistic, but I also don't want to make it too long.
Dr. Harley says that when you have gone 4 weeks without a DJ, you have eliminated them. I would put 4 weeks from today down as my deadline.

Quote
Here's what I did:
1. Shut up
2. Eliminate anything that causes me to dwell on Markos' mistakes and that would reinforce DJs in my mind (journaling, venting)
3. Empathize with Markos

Quote
The first step is SHUT UP. When you find yourself irritated with your wife, when you start thinking that she SHOULD do this or SHOULD do that, when she's not doing what you want, when she's expressing an opinion you don't agree with and never would, then SHUT UP. Don't say anything. Just listen.

Haven't had a chance to test this yet as I haven't been irritated about anything. A lot of this has to do with how I view things differently.
You don't need to test it. You are making your plan right now. Write it down on your plan and DECIDE that you are going to follow it.


Quote
Quote
You also need to eliminate ANYTHING that causes you to dwell on your wife's mistakes. Do you journal? Cut it out. Do you vent? Cut it out. Do you keep score? Cut it out. Anything that lets you focus on her mistakes rather than on the progress she is making.
No journaling, venting, or score keeping. She can do whatever she wants, I'm really trying to eliminate doing the same things that got me in to trouble before.

You've kept score in the recent past, Hill. Your plan needs to acknowledge that.

And I don't believe that she can do whatever she wants. You have been demanding, and demands do not allow your spouse to say "no."

Quote
Quote
Then, empathize with your wife. Does she have a right to feel the way she feels? Is the way she feels valid (the answer is always YES, btw). Is the way she sees things equal to your view? (YES). Why is she feeling the way she feels? You need to work on seeing things from her point of view, and accepting that her point of view is just as valid as yours. Do not make assumptions. Do not demand that she just do what you want. UNDERSTAND her.

Did that this morning actually. She said she felt overwhelmed about the house. I didn't try to "fix the problem" like I usually do to eliminate her feeling overwhelmed. She doesn't like that. I merely told her that "I get it."

Are you going to put it on your plan?

This plan needs to be written down. It needs to have detailed steps, such as I suggested. And it needs to be presented to your wife for approval.

So what does your plan look like at the moment?


Disrespectful Judgements: Starting today I am eliminating DJ's from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, feel free to add as you see fit:

1. Sarcastic comments
2. Lecturing
3. Preaching
4. Assuming
5. Not keeping score

Dishonesty: Starting today I am eliminating dishonesty from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, also add as you see fit:

1. Not expressing my feelings to you

Selfish Demands: Starting today I am eliminating selfish demands from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, add as you see fit:

1. Not asking for anything that you are not enthusiastic about.
2. Not asking for things that cause me to gain at your expense.


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Hey, that is looking better! It's a good start!

Look through the forms for these plans in Dr. Harley's workbook. He has some questions you will need to consider and answer.


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Originally Posted by markos
Hey, that is looking better! It's a good start!

Look through the forms for these plans in Dr. Harley's workbook. He has some questions you will need to consider and answer.

At the office but I can do it tonight. Unless of course these questions are somewhere on the site?


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Quote
Disrespectful Judgements: Starting today I am eliminating DJ's from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, feel free to add as you see fit:

1. Sarcastic comments
2. Lecturing
3. Preaching
4. Assuming
5. Not keeping score
"I will do this by shutting up and listening. I will also learn to empathize with your point of view and feelings, which are just as valid as mine."

Quote
Dishonesty: Starting today I am eliminating dishonesty from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, also add as you see fit:

1. Not expressing my feelings to you
"I am committed to Radical Honesty, and will start expressing my feelings to you in a respectful way."

Quote
Selfish Demands: Starting today I am eliminating selfish demands from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, add as you see fit:

1. Not asking for anything that you are not enthusiastic about.
2. Not asking for things that cause me to gain at your expense.

3. I will be patient.
I will accept "no" as an answer. I will use the "friends of good conversation" to negotiate a solution that will make both of us happy.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by markos
Hey, that is looking better! It's a good start!

Look through the forms for these plans in Dr. Harley's workbook. He has some questions you will need to consider and answer.

At the office but I can do it tonight. Unless of course these questions are somewhere on the site?

I don't think they are. There is a questionnaires section, and they aren't listed:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html


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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by markos
Hey, that is looking better! It's a good start!

Look through the forms for these plans in Dr. Harley's workbook. He has some questions you will need to consider and answer.

At the office but I can do it tonight. Unless of course these questions are somewhere on the site?

I don't think they are. There is a questionnaires section, and they aren't listed:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4500_resource.html

But that prompted me to remember that there's probably some good reading material for you about SDs, DJs, and AOs in the Q&A section.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5000_qa.html

Last edited by markos; 05/10/11 01:58 PM.

If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

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Also be sure to mention the deadline to your wife, and make sure she agrees. Be sure to agree to exactly what you will do if by the deadline you haven't successfully eliminated these LB. I suggest you tell your wife "If I haven't succeeded in eliminating these lovebusters by June 7, I will set up an appointment for myself with Steve Harley."

And all of this needs to be in writing.

Last edited by Prisca; 05/10/11 02:12 PM.

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What to do with an Angry Husband

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Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
Disrespectful Judgements: Starting today I am eliminating DJ's from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, feel free to add as you see fit:

1. Sarcastic comments
2. Lecturing
3. Preaching
4. Assuming
5. Not keeping score
"I will do this by shutting up and listening. I will also learn to empathize with your point of view and feelings, which are just as valid as mine."

Quote
Dishonesty: Starting today I am eliminating dishonesty from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, also add as you see fit:

1. Not expressing my feelings to you
"I am committed to Radical Honesty, and will start expressing my feelings to you in a respectful way."

Quote
Selfish Demands: Starting today I am eliminating selfish demands from my life. Specifically eliminating the following below, add as you see fit:

1. Not asking for anything that you are not enthusiastic about.
2. Not asking for things that cause me to gain at your expense.

3. I will be patient.
I will accept "no" as an answer. I will use the "friends of good conversation" to negotiate a solution that will make both of us happy.

Ok all typed up and ready to go.


Married 15 years
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Originally Posted by Prisca
Also be sure to mention the deadline to your wife, and make sure she agrees. Be sure to agree to exactly what you will do if by the deadline you haven't successfully eliminated these LB. I suggest you tell your wife "If I haven't succeeded in eliminating these lovebusters by June 7, I will set up an appointment for myself with Steve Harley."

And all of this needs to be in writing.

Understood


Married 15 years
12 y/o DD
10 y/o DS
6 y/o DD
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