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Tough,

Hilltopper should only consider Plan B under the direct counsel of Dr. Harley, not this board. You are pushing for something that Dr. Harley doesn't usually advise men to do.

Yes, unconditional love is not the goal. But Dr. Harley doesn't advise men to leave in order to escape that unconditional love. Hilltopper needs to be concentrating on winning his wife back. He is not approaching any limit here. Plan B is a dangerous distraction in this case.


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I listened to the radio call with Markos. What I got from it is that men may just need to be prepared to not have their emotional needs met for a long time, because it is worse to force a reluctant wife to participate in something. Dr. Harley said one should operate on a presumption of "good faith" that the reluctant spouse does want to meet your needs. What was unstated was that it may take a long time for this to actually manifest, particularly if the wife is (a) quite different from the husband emotionally (b) feeling trapped and (c) reacting to AOs or other LBs.

Of course, separation and divorce are hardly easy alternatives.

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Originally Posted by Prisca
Tough,

Hilltopper should only consider Plan B under the direct counsel of Dr. Harley, not this board. You are pushing for something that Dr. Harley doesn't usually advise men to do.

Yes, unconditional love is not the goal. But Dr. Harley doesn't advise men to leave in order to escape that unconditional love. Hilltopper needs to be concentrating on winning his wife back. He is not approaching any limit here. Plan B is a dangerous distraction in this case.

I have never once advised him to leave. Plan B isn't about leaving or divorce, and never had I said for him to leave his home. I also said he has plenty of time still left in Plan A. I was discussing that Plan B could be an option down the road because he deserves to have his needs met as well.

Who are we to tell this man how long he should go or if his love bank is done. We aren't in that position. We are in the process of marriage building, and a one-sided marriage does nobody any good. He will know when his love bank is nearing zero. Creating a marriage that is unconditional love doesn't do him any good either.

What happens then a man risks an affair. The goal is to get him to place where he still has love for his wife. If she doesn't respond to him and he has given it plenty of time (Dr. H says at least 2 years) then he should look at Plan B so he doesn't risk an affair, become super resentful, or in the end hate his wife!!

Please don't put words in my mouth folks. I never told him to leave or think about leaving. I suggested he look at his life if this doesn't turn around. What does he want for his life?

He can only control himself. This site has never been saving all marriages. The last thing is a man completely drained of his love. Will his boundaries stick?




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One thing to mention is that they have a recently new born. Once the baby gets a bit older .. things WILL get easier. If he can just keep doing a good plan A and stop LB'ing ... I am sure his wife would respond in a better manner once she is not exasperated with over touching by the baby.

Hill .. how did that "talk" go? I know your wife cried .. but was it productive? Hopefully you avoided LB'ing behaviour and rationally conversed about whatever the convo was about.

Praying for you two..

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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
She says she wants to spend that time with me and if I acted like I cared and planned it that we'd do it more.

This is how you can get things back on track.


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What happens then a man risks an affair. The goal is to get him to place where he still has love for his wife. If she doesn't respond to him and he has given it plenty of time (Dr. H says at least 2 years) then he should look at Plan B so he doesn't risk an affair, become super resentful, or in the end hate his wife!!
Be very careful here Tough. Remember, affairs happen not because someone's ENs aren't being met, but because they have weak boundaries around members of the opposite sex, allowing that person to meet ENs which only their spouse should be meeting.

I see the main problem here is that Grace is most likely in a state of withdrawal about her marriage, and she will need to be brought back to intimacy. It CAN be done.

I think we also need to be very careful about saying that when the infant is older, things will get better. That is not always the case. But it does bring up other factors that should be considered. Grace is most likely exhausted, and the hormone shifting is harder on some.

I think that the right thing for Hill to do is exactly what Markos has stated. Also, getting on the phone with the Harleys would do wonders for this marriage.


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I know that Scotty - look down and you will see me discuss his bounaries.

When your love bank goes low you are at an increased risk for an affair. That is what I am stating.

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Originally Posted by itistoughlove
I have never once advised him to leave. Plan B isn't about leaving or divorce, and never had I said for him to leave his home.
Plan B IS leaving. If he were to go to Plan B, meaning he cut off all contact with her whatsoever, she will most definitely feel like he left her.

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I also said he has plenty of time still left in Plan A. I was discussing that Plan B could be an option down the road because he deserves to have his needs met as well.
And I am saying that Dr. Harley does not advise Plan B for a man who is not in an affair situation.

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Who are we to tell this man how long he should go or if his love bank is done.
It's not US telling him that. It's Dr. HARLEY.

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We aren't in that position. We are in the process of marriage building, and a one-sided marriage does nobody any good. He will know when his love bank is nearing zero. Creating a marriage that is unconditional love doesn't do him any good either.
Nobody's arguing with that.

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What happens then a man risks an affair. The goal is to get him to place where he still has love for his wife. If she doesn't respond to him and he has given it plenty of time (Dr. H says at least 2 years) then he should look at Plan B so he doesn't risk an affair, become super resentful, or in the end hate his wife!!
That is not why Dr. Harley recommends Plan B. He actually says that separation puts a man more at risk for an affair.

The solution to affair proofing is boundaries. Plan B has nothing to do with it.

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Please don't put words in my mouth folks. I never told him to leave or think about leaving. I suggested he look at his life if this doesn't turn around. What does he want for his life?
Plan B is essentially leaving. Plan B isn't a tool to save marriages. It is a tool to protect the betrayed spouse in an affair situation. Dr. Harley says he sometimes recommends that a neglected woman separate and go to Plan B. He RARELY recommends that for a neglected man.

If you disagree with Dr. Harley's position on this, might I recommend you talk it over with him before continuing to suggest to a neglected man (NOT a BS) to consider Plan B?

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He can only control himself. This site has never been saving all marriages. The last thing is a man completely drained of his love. Will his boundaries stick?

If they don't stick, it won't be because of Grace.


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I completely disagree Prisca. Dr. Harley does suggest after an extended timeframe usually two years or more for husbands, a spouse can demonstrate their needs should be met or Plan B, a husband can go into Plan B. He has said it before, and talked about it with Steve. The main goal of his program is to protect the lovebank. There isn't any other goal of MB except to make sure the lovebank stays at a certain level.

Why does a husband have to get into a neglected situation in the first place? How many BW are on SAA because a husband was neglected by them and had an affair? Thousands!!!

You are correct his boundaries will need to be air tight. Who wants to even get themselves into that state in the first place? I know I haven't had my needs met in 15 months. I am a house plant today because I do not want to risk anything. I tell you the first man that gives me attention, may send me over the edge. It is dangerous to get your lovebank to that level. Then temptation is hard to resist.

The goal is to maintain his love for his wife. Dr. Harley has never ever been about creating unconditional love. That is exactly what happens after years of neglect by a wife.

The rarity of a wife neglecting her husband after two years exist. With a good Plan A Hill can and will likely win her over. In the case he cannot - he should explain to her well in advance, I need these needs met by you. If that doesn't happen then I will look at a Plan B option.

A neglected man is at a great risk of an affair. He will have to air tight his boundaries. You know how difficult that is? Out on the SAA forum you read BH's who struggle constantly with their boundaries by not getting their needs met.

Plan B is discussed by Dr. Harley for neglect. It just so happens it is usually the case the wife is neglected. It can also be the case the husband is neglected.

Prisca I have every right to discuss Plan B with any neglected spouse. I am not going against Dr. Harley. I made it crystal clear to go at least two years or more in Plan a for a husband, or whatever Hill can do. What good does it do him if by the end of two years he has no love?

Then what happens at the end of two years and his LB is in the red and he doesn't even want to consider Plan B, just Plan D.

Yes - separation risks an affair and divorce. What does it matter if he has no more love for his wife?

Dr. Harley explains that in his unconditional love article. Which was based on a wife, but addressed to a neglected spouse.

Please stop trying to negate the advice I provide. This forum is about giving readers advice based on Dr. Harley, and I am basing my advice on how I understand the lovebank, affairs, and Plan B. I do not feel I am going against his principles, or in any means giving Hill false advice.

My only goal is to protect the love he has for his wife. I have no other motive. If Hill doesn't like the advice I give then he can use his own judgment and make his own decisions.

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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by Prisca
Listen to the call Markos had with him a few days after Steve (Oct 27, 2011). Dr. Harley was very specific in that he does not usually advise men to separate because of neglect. An affair, yes. Neglect, no.

He has on occasion, but it is not his usual recommendation for men.

If Dr. Harley told Hilltopper to separate and go to Plan B, then he should. But he hasn't.

And all that aside, Hilltopper has yet to do a Plan A.

Serious talk going on right now. I was honest but respectful. She is crying and went to take a shower before coming back to continue. I pray with all my heart we have a breakthrough together.

I continue to pray for you guys, Hilltopper, but I'm fearful that if you guys had a talk and she is crying that the direction you go from here may not be good. She may begin to feel trapped that she "has" to do whatever it is you are asking for. I can tell you from experience it is so much better to win over her emotions first such that she wants to make you happy. Talks reach her logic; meeting emotional needs reach her emotions.

Please post an update and let us know what's happening now, okay?

Talk went well. She said she likes the new me, but that she got so used to doing her own thing without me because I was never interested in her. In other words she gave up on me long, long ago. That and she is incredibly worn out every with the kids and everything else that concerns her day to day. I was quite honest with her in my letter on how I feel. I'm quite scared to be honest that Plan B might have to come into play when I know that it shouldn't have to. The "reaching her emotions" part hit home and I'm trying to do that each day. Thanks for the prayers.


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Originally Posted by bitbucket
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by itistoughlove
I would say you may want to prepare for Plan B. Start to map out what your life might look like.

In a non-affair situation, Dr. Harley does not recommend Plan B for most men who are being neglected.

Yes. This is spelled out in When to call it quits, part 3

Originally Posted by Dr Harley
Even if an affair is not ongoing, a separation can lead to one. One of my cardinal rules to prevent an affair is to avoid being separated overnight. A deliberate separation increases the risk of an affair, and can turn a difficult marriage into a disaster.

There are also legal considerations. If a husband separates from his family, he can be accused of abandoning his children. If the marriage ends in divorce, he risks losing the right to joint custody. So an attorney should always be consulted before separating. When a woman wants to separate, she does not have the same legal problems because most courts let her stay in the home with her children. It's the husband who must leave.

If the husband chooses to separate, his children often feel that he's left them. It makes it very difficult for him to explain why he's taking such a drastic step, especially if sex is the problem. But if a wife asks him to leave, the children are still with her. She doesn't need to do as much explaining.

When a husband has children in the home, the risks and problems of separation often outweigh the rewards. After discussing the pros and cons of a separation because of sexual problems, most husbands I've counseled decide not to separate, and I go back to work trying to convince their wives to make love to them. There are three female coaches on our staff and I lean heavily on their instincts and persuasive skills when trying to address this problem.

Believe me, I've given this issue a lot of thought in the last few years. I'm fortunate in that my wife (mostly) embraces MB, and I trust that she is doing what she can within the limits of our current circumstances.

Hill - would your W consider speaking with Jennifer Harley-Chalmers? She got through to my W and might be able to help yours...just a thought.

No she won't.


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Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by itistoughlove
Okay Prisca that makes no sense.
Take that up with Dr. Harley. He said it, not me smile

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Usually for an affair it is six months Plan A and then 18 months Plan B.
You do realize that there is no affair in this Hilltopper and Grace's marriage, right?

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Hilltopper might be able to go longer than two years in Plan A. It is his choice, but Plan B should be looked at if his wife won't meet his needs after that much time.
Only if Dr. Harley tells him to do so. Dr. Harley doesn't usually recommend that course of action for men who are being neglected. This is not an affair situation.

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Unconditional love does not make a successful marriage, and that is what it seems is happening. I can understand how Hilltopper is using some DJ, but with all the other Plan A love he is depositing it shouldn't be such a big hit that she cannot return love back to him.
On the contrary, every time Hilltopper slips up with a demand or a DJ, he UNDOES everything he has accomplished. He sabotages his own efforts. He abuses his wife. I don't think you're one to judge whether or not that should be a big hit for her or not.

Plan A does not allow for lovebusters, and if he is demanding and DJing her, then he isn't doing Plan A. He is only pushing her away. She's not going to have any interest in returning anything back to him right now, let alone "love."

Plan A is perfection Prisca? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just truly asking. I am a man, we are all human, and I don't think Dr Harley would suggest that perfection is the only way to conduct Plan A?


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Originally Posted by itistoughlove
Why would he have to leave his home? If she is not meeting his needs for more than two years, then I would make her leave, and let her know he will be filing for sole custody.

The key here is to understand that after a long period (usually 2 years) a man can no longer do Plan A. That isn't fair to Hill or his wife or the children.

Then you have an unconditional love situation, and that will drain all his love for her over time.

Hill still has plenty of time until the two year mark. He should be supported for staying committed, and he should also be supported if he ultimately decides to throw in the towel.

In the meantime, Hill should continue on Plan A and work with his wife by opening up commuication.

If the environment isn't friendly for his wife to share her feelings O&H, then Hill should work to make her feel safe so she can be O&H.

If Mrs. Hill needs more affection to open up SF, then Hill should look at more affection.

If Mrs. Hill needs more FC with the kids, then Hill should figure out how to FC with the kids more.

At the same time if Mr. Hill is doing that, then Mrs. Hill should meet his needs.

Mr. Hill is your wife a super duper strong affection wife? Just like some men need admiration beyond the normal threshold, some women need affection beyond the normal threshold.

It maybe a simple tweeking to the needs to get her to respond. Let's see if we can help him get that tweek.

If you read through our thread from beginning to end you'd find that I give and need affection more than she, she needs admiration more than I, etc. I was awful to her early on when we first started MB. I think she is having a hard time trusting that I won't be that guy again and I understand that. With that being said, I think a year is about all I can give before I move to Plan B.


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Originally Posted by kerala
I listened to the radio call with Markos. What I got from it is that men may just need to be prepared to not have their emotional needs met for a long time, because it is worse to force a reluctant wife to participate in something. Dr. Harley said one should operate on a presumption of "good faith" that the reluctant spouse does want to meet your needs. What was unstated was that it may take a long time for this to actually manifest, particularly if the wife is (a) quite different from the husband emotionally (b) feeling trapped and (c) reacting to AOs or other LBs.

Of course, separation and divorce are hardly easy alternatives.

Kerala,

Yes time is difficult when you are the person feeling neglect. As I said before I think she can't trust that I'm not gonna revert back to my old ways and it is my job to show her that I'm not.


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Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
One thing to mention is that they have a recently new born. Once the baby gets a bit older .. things WILL get easier. If he can just keep doing a good plan A and stop LB'ing ... I am sure his wife would respond in a better manner once she is not exasperated with over touching by the baby.

Hill .. how did that "talk" go? I know your wife cried .. but was it productive? Hopefully you avoided LB'ing behaviour and rationally conversed about whatever the convo was about.

Praying for you two..

MNG

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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by itistoughlove
Okay Prisca that makes no sense.
Take that up with Dr. Harley. He said it, not me smile

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Usually for an affair it is six months Plan A and then 18 months Plan B.
You do realize that there is no affair in this Hilltopper and Grace's marriage, right?

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Hilltopper might be able to go longer than two years in Plan A. It is his choice, but Plan B should be looked at if his wife won't meet his needs after that much time.
Only if Dr. Harley tells him to do so. Dr. Harley doesn't usually recommend that course of action for men who are being neglected. This is not an affair situation.

Quote
Unconditional love does not make a successful marriage, and that is what it seems is happening. I can understand how Hilltopper is using some DJ, but with all the other Plan A love he is depositing it shouldn't be such a big hit that she cannot return love back to him.
On the contrary, every time Hilltopper slips up with a demand or a DJ, he UNDOES everything he has accomplished. He sabotages his own efforts. He abuses his wife. I don't think you're one to judge whether or not that should be a big hit for her or not.

Plan A does not allow for lovebusters, and if he is demanding and DJing her, then he isn't doing Plan A. He is only pushing her away. She's not going to have any interest in returning anything back to him right now, let alone "love."

Plan A is perfection Prisca? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just truly asking. I am a man, we are all human, and I don't think Dr Harley would suggest that perfection is the only way to conduct Plan A?


Dr. Harley would tell you that if you are Lovebusting, you are not doing Plan A. You do not have to be perfect to avoid abusing your wife.

You can listen to the criticism of your current Plan A and go and do something constructive to better yourself and your marriage, or you can mope about how nobody's perfect.

One is taking action. The other will get you nowhere.

Your choice.



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Picking and chosing the parts one likes and not doing the parts one does not is not doing plan A.

Part WE, whatever seems to be getting you the results you want?

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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
She says she wants to spend that time with me and if I acted like I cared and planned it that we'd do it more.

I think this is what your wife said you need to focus on. Are you making any progress in this direction? I bring it up because I think it could really help. And it shows a crack of willingness on her part.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Talk went well. She said she likes the new me, but that she got so used to doing her own thing without me because I was never interested in her. In other words she gave up on me long, long ago.

She may have given up, but making love bank deposits will turn that around.

Ask Prisca how many times she has given up on me! shocked

Anyway, your wife has given you the clue to how to get things moving forward again: start planning stuff (within parameters she is comfortable with). Plan, invite, don't demand, stay calm. Be patient. Leave the door open behind her for her to run back out if she gets an inkling that she is trapped or that you might not be safe or something.

Quote
That and she is incredibly worn out every with the
kids and everything else that concerns her day to day.

If this is the pressing problem in her life, then the man she falls in love with will be the man who becomes involved and concerned with those problems. He will express empathy, be her confidante and person she can vent to, will always be calm even when those problems affect him emotionally, too, and will offer to assist in solutions to problems, without trying to drag her into such solutions. And he'll be that man even if she's disrespectful and abusive and blames him for all of it! And when she falls in love with that man ... everything will change.

Be that man.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

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Concrete suggestions of things you can DO:

* Plan time for you and your wife.
* Become involved in talking about and working on her problems with her
* Give Dr. Harley another call


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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