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You sound like frustration is mounting and you are setting up for something.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Is it possible that my wife loves me very much(because she tells me so), but that sexual fulfillment is absent due to other reasons? Is it possible that a spouse can cross the threshold of love yet still not have any need/desire for SF? The reason I ask is because wife and I are doing amazing and have been for quite some time. Our UA time is solid, we rarely have a "tif" and even if we do we recover within 5 minutes. I think my main source of emptiness is because of SF. My wife promises and then declines constantly and each time she does it makes me feel unwanted. Its kind of like this creature that I have been getting along with so well at a moments notice can come up with any number of reasons why we can't have sex and if she does agree, she'll act like it is a huge pain in the butt. This is a MASSIVE blow to our relationship and my concern is that she feels we are in a romantic relationship, whereas I certainly do not. I've often said that from the outside looking in my wife feels everything is just fine, and that I'm the one that is unhappy. Maybe this is why? I won't apologize for wanting my most important emotional need met and I don't think I need to. My wife punishes me over this need and I honestly don't think she sees it as a need at all. I have my vasectomy scheduled for after vacation which in all honestly will be the last "hurdle" we need to cross. She never uses the fear of pregnancy any more like she used to when it comes to the reason of not wanting to meet this need. It is more of a, "Oh, today was rough not tonight" or "Too tired", etc. I don't think I can be part of the 20% of happily married couples without sexual fulfillment, but I also think that I'm working towards a goal of a perfect marriage that will likely not lead more SF. This is exhausting.

Are you selfish in your sexual needs and dont provide enough forplay and attention to her? If she feels that this is all for you and she needs to perform all the acts on your then why would she want to have sex to her. It is a burden to her this way. But if you can put more attention to her and her feelings and pleasure and not all focus on what you need and what she needs to do to YOU then she might be more accommodating. Also do you keep yourself clean and well groomed? That can be a turnoff to a wife as well. also smell. Ask her what scents she likes and try them out. I know scents are very powerful especially to women and their attraction to men. Just some thoughts coming from a wife with a husband who has NO interest in sex at all and knows what would work for me.

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Originally Posted by markos
It is possible, but from what I've read, extremely unlikely.

Did she ever show an interest in sex?

Have you asked her (at a time when things are calm -- not in the heat of the moment!) why she declines and if there's anything you can change that would make her feel less like declining?

I would say sex became chore like after child number one for sure. The fun part and the emotional connection was sucked right out of it to be replaced by "let's just get this done." This is not the woman I married and I remember her pursuing me many a night when I wasn't in the mood.

I've asked her a few times, but not so much as to push her away about it. When I ask her respectfully it used to be that she was afraid of getting pregnant, but that is no longer the reason. Now it is typically answered with, "Oh that is all you want."

Now that I think about it, I want a lot of things from her and she meets those needs pretty good and is getting better as am I. She mentioned low libido briefly in a few very short conversations and I believe I heard her say the doctor said she is low in testosterone which I know Dr H sometimes points out.

It is a double edged sword because I don't get that need met enough and when it is met I'm sometimes made to feel bad about wanting it met in the first place. Sometimes when we make plans for sex, she'll tell me to go upstairs and that she'll be up in 3 mins, but then she sometimes watches a show for another 20-30 mins before she comes upstairs. That makes me feel like complete crap.


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Originally Posted by markos
Don't put it on the objective, judgmental terms of trying to establish whether you are or are not in a romantic relationship.

The fact is she feels the relationship is good for her. (Although maybe it could be better.) Whereas you feel that the relationship is lacking for you, because of sex.

There's no need to hammer down who's right and wrong, that way. (i.e., no DJs)

I'm not concerned about right or wrong but you hit the nail on the head which is that she thinks things are pretty good and honestly so do I in ALL areas except for that one.


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Originally Posted by markos
You sound like frustration is mounting and you are setting up for something.

Nope, I've learned to be patient, but this is a place of refuge where I can get feedback through some very experienced people. I would argue I'm a better husband for coming here and will continue to do so. I just think that I can continue to do all the things I'm working so hard on, but I do not think they will lead to my EN of SF being met any more than it is right now. I think there will have to be other actions necessary outside of her Love Bank which could involve her coming back to MB or perhaps seeing the doctor but I could be wrong. I'm not making a move Markos. smile


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Why has it taken so long for you to schedule a vas? Am I remembering wrong, or didn't you two come to that agreement 9-10 months ago?


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Originally Posted by hopelessinTX
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Is it possible that my wife loves me very much(because she tells me so), but that sexual fulfillment is absent due to other reasons? Is it possible that a spouse can cross the threshold of love yet still not have any need/desire for SF? The reason I ask is because wife and I are doing amazing and have been for quite some time. Our UA time is solid, we rarely have a "tif" and even if we do we recover within 5 minutes. I think my main source of emptiness is because of SF. My wife promises and then declines constantly and each time she does it makes me feel unwanted. Its kind of like this creature that I have been getting along with so well at a moments notice can come up with any number of reasons why we can't have sex and if she does agree, she'll act like it is a huge pain in the butt. This is a MASSIVE blow to our relationship and my concern is that she feels we are in a romantic relationship, whereas I certainly do not. I've often said that from the outside looking in my wife feels everything is just fine, and that I'm the one that is unhappy. Maybe this is why? I won't apologize for wanting my most important emotional need met and I don't think I need to. My wife punishes me over this need and I honestly don't think she sees it as a need at all. I have my vasectomy scheduled for after vacation which in all honestly will be the last "hurdle" we need to cross. She never uses the fear of pregnancy any more like she used to when it comes to the reason of not wanting to meet this need. It is more of a, "Oh, today was rough not tonight" or "Too tired", etc. I don't think I can be part of the 20% of happily married couples without sexual fulfillment, but I also think that I'm working towards a goal of a perfect marriage that will likely not lead more SF. This is exhausting.

Are you selfish in your sexual needs and dont provide enough forplay and attention to her? If she feels that this is all for you and she needs to perform all the acts on your then why would she want to have sex to her. It is a burden to her this way. But if you can put more attention to her and her feelings and pleasure and not all focus on what you need and what she needs to do to YOU then she might be more accommodating. Also do you keep yourself clean and well groomed? That can be a turnoff to a wife as well. also smell. Ask her what scents she likes and try them out. I know scents are very powerful especially to women and their attraction to men. Just some thoughts coming from a wife with a husband who has NO interest in sex at all and knows what would work for me.

I would kill if there was anything else aloud other than getting right to it. In other words we used to do everything but little by little she has eliminated everything that has to do with her aside from the deed alone. I'm well groomed, always make a point to shower before, and am in excellent shape.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
Why has it taken so long for you to schedule a vas? Am I remembering wrong, or didn't you two come to that agreement 9-10 months ago?

I actually was opposed to it but came around after another meeting with my doctor. This was a point of disagreement that never really resolved until I voluntarily went to a urologist and talked it through with him.


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Maybe this has been discussed before, sorry i didnt read all 160 pages in this thread. So forgive me if it was already discussed.

But you say you have 3 kids and one who is 18 months. Did you notice any changes in your wifes mood after she had her babies? Did it get progressively worse after each one? Is she a SAHM or does she work? What I am getting at is that could your wife prossibly have post partum depression? That can totally impact her self image, sex drive, and a host of other things. I personally know this as I had severe PPD after my first and aftermy second. Its horrible. She may be embarrassed to say that she is overwhelmed with the childcare and you may not see it as it may not be severe espeically if she is good at covering it up and faking being fine.

will she go to her doctor? Her primary care or OB? I would have her hormones, thyroid, and a depression screening done if she is willing.

Just a thought.

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There is a saying: men spell sex s-e-x.
Women spell sex t-a-l-k.

There are books out there that give you tips

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Originally Posted by HDW
There is a saying: men spell sex s-e-x.
Women spell sex t-a-l-k.

There are books out there that give you tips

Yes, one of the reasons I like/pursue sex with my husband is b/c he's very open and verbally affectionate during/after. He says all kinds of wonderful things that make huge deposits into my love bank smile

Of course I haven't had children yet. I know that can effect a woman in many ways.

Also there are many things that could be holding your wife up in this department that does not directly relate to you. Of course in order to pursue changing those things she would have to realize how important this is to her marriage and try to work out whether its a medical issue, a mood issue (depression), or something she needs to work on bringing her sexuality back out.

You said you guys had worked on HNHN or MB together before? Does she realize or actually believe that this a huge EMOTIONAL need for you versus a physical one?

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Originally Posted by hopelessinTX
Maybe this has been discussed before, sorry i didnt read all 160 pages in this thread. So forgive me if it was already discussed.

But you say you have 3 kids and one who is 18 months. Did you notice any changes in your wifes mood after she had her babies? Did it get progressively worse after each one? Is she a SAHM or does she work? What I am getting at is that could your wife prossibly have post partum depression? That can totally impact her self image, sex drive, and a host of other things. I personally know this as I had severe PPD after my first and aftermy second. Its horrible. She may be embarrassed to say that she is overwhelmed with the childcare and you may not see it as it may not be severe espeically if she is good at covering it up and faking being fine.

will she go to her doctor? Her primary care or OB? I would have her hormones, thyroid, and a depression screening done if she is willing.

Just a thought.

This theory is very possible. She is overwhelmed every single day of our lives from kids, laundry, etc. I'll read up on PPD because honestly I never had. She did have thyroid issues in the past, but nothing recently. This is why I suggested that maybe it has nothing to do with our relationship, but rather something physical or as you suggest PPD. Her body is basically off limits to me and she complains about her body daily. It has gotten progressively worse after each kid without a doubt.


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Originally Posted by JessicaGC
Originally Posted by HDW
There is a saying: men spell sex s-e-x.
Women spell sex t-a-l-k.

There are books out there that give you tips

Yes, one of the reasons I like/pursue sex with my husband is b/c he's very open and verbally affectionate during/after. He says all kinds of wonderful things that make huge deposits into my love bank smile

Of course I haven't had children yet. I know that can effect a woman in many ways.

Also there are many things that could be holding your wife up in this department that does not directly relate to you. Of course in order to pursue changing those things she would have to realize how important this is to her marriage and try to work out whether its a medical issue, a mood issue (depression), or something she needs to work on bringing her sexuality back out.

You said you guys had worked on HNHN or MB together before? Does she realize or actually believe that this a huge EMOTIONAL need for you versus a physical one?

Yes she was involved with the work book and we've had the discussion about it being my number one EN. She has not said it verbatim to me but through my experiences with her I don't think she sees SF as an emotional need the same as she sees affection, conversation, etc. She gets annoyed with me that I remind her that I'd like to have sex which makes me get tired of asking. Then when we do it is all about getting it done so that we both are satisfied as soon as possible. She does NOT like to cuddle afterwards and has made it very clear.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by hopelessinTX
Maybe this has been discussed before, sorry i didnt read all 160 pages in this thread. So forgive me if it was already discussed.

But you say you have 3 kids and one who is 18 months. Did you notice any changes in your wifes mood after she had her babies? Did it get progressively worse after each one? Is she a SAHM or does she work? What I am getting at is that could your wife prossibly have post partum depression? That can totally impact her self image, sex drive, and a host of other things. I personally know this as I had severe PPD after my first and aftermy second. Its horrible. She may be embarrassed to say that she is overwhelmed with the childcare and you may not see it as it may not be severe espeically if she is good at covering it up and faking being fine.

will she go to her doctor? Her primary care or OB? I would have her hormones, thyroid, and a depression screening done if she is willing.

Just a thought.

This theory is very possible. She is overwhelmed every single day of our lives from kids, laundry, etc. I'll read up on PPD because honestly I never had. She did have thyroid issues in the past, but nothing recently. This is why I suggested that maybe it has nothing to do with our relationship, but rather something physical or as you suggest PPD. Her body is basically off limits to me and she complains about her body daily. It has gotten progressively worse after each kid without a doubt.


can you hire a cleaning lady to help take soem of the cleaning chores and stress off her? Or even hire a mommys helper-a high school or even younger person to help with the kids, light cleaning, etc to take the load off? Do you tell her that she needs to do all the cleaning and cooking and etc or does she just do it? It is overwhelming to be a sahm taking care of kids and house and cleaning and clothes and cooking, etc. she might just need a break more often or have you take off some of the load and doing more around the house too. Just more thoughts.

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Originally Posted by hopelessinTX
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
Originally Posted by hopelessinTX
Maybe this has been discussed before, sorry i didnt read all 160 pages in this thread. So forgive me if it was already discussed.

But you say you have 3 kids and one who is 18 months. Did you notice any changes in your wifes mood after she had her babies? Did it get progressively worse after each one? Is she a SAHM or does she work? What I am getting at is that could your wife prossibly have post partum depression? That can totally impact her self image, sex drive, and a host of other things. I personally know this as I had severe PPD after my first and aftermy second. Its horrible. She may be embarrassed to say that she is overwhelmed with the childcare and you may not see it as it may not be severe espeically if she is good at covering it up and faking being fine.

will she go to her doctor? Her primary care or OB? I would have her hormones, thyroid, and a depression screening done if she is willing.

Just a thought.

This theory is very possible. She is overwhelmed every single day of our lives from kids, laundry, etc. I'll read up on PPD because honestly I never had. She did have thyroid issues in the past, but nothing recently. This is why I suggested that maybe it has nothing to do with our relationship, but rather something physical or as you suggest PPD. Her body is basically off limits to me and she complains about her body daily. It has gotten progressively worse after each kid without a doubt.


can you hire a cleaning lady to help take soem of the cleaning chores and stress off her? Or even hire a mommys helper-a high school or even younger person to help with the kids, light cleaning, etc to take the load off? Do you tell her that she needs to do all the cleaning and cooking and etc or does she just do it? It is overwhelming to be a sahm taking care of kids and house and cleaning and clothes and cooking, etc. she might just need a break more often or have you take off some of the load and doing more around the house too. Just more thoughts.

Hired a handyman two weeks ago to fix some things that were bothering her. We have a sitter but no helper. I'm pretty hands on and typically get kids up, make breakfast, do dishes, make dinner, do those dishes, and bathe kids. It is totally overwhelming and I am a hands on type of a husband/dad. I just came downstairs after helping her put the laundry away right now in fact.


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Hill it sounds like the problem is it's still a power struggle thing. She sees it as something that's not a natural part of the day, so her hackles get raised. How can you approach this without getting her defenses up? Maybe like first thing in the morning, especially on a weekend, when there are no demands on you two yet and the kids are still sleeping? Do you have existing parts of your day you can add affection to? Like if you two have a kiss good morning when you wake up, maybe you could add snuggling, and then when you both are looking forward to that, make the next move. Have you read Dr. H's article of affection lately, does that sound like something that would help?


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Originally Posted by NewEveryDay
Hill it sounds like the problem is it's still a power struggle thing. She sees it as something that's not a natural part of the day, so her hackles get raised. How can you approach this without getting her defenses up? Maybe like first thing in the morning, especially on a weekend, when there are no demands on you two yet and the kids are still sleeping? Do you have existing parts of your day you can add affection to? Like if you two have a kiss good morning when you wake up, maybe you could add snuggling, and then when you both are looking forward to that, make the next move. Have you read Dr. H's article of affection lately, does that sound like something that would help?

Kids were all at the grandparents. I made her a fabulous healthy dinner. We ate and talked and it was great. We both went upstairs to do laundry and when were close to done I asked if we could have some fun before kids come home. She declined again and said her heart was not in it at that moment cause she was crabby. She promised for the following night and asked if that was ok. I said that I preferred tonight because it keeps getting put off and it is really important to me. She said, "I know you were great today but my heart is just not in it."

This is the most common end result. I guess the part that is hard for me is that she has the energy to do a lot of things, many of those with me. When it is always said and done SF gets the short end of the stick. As far as making a move goes, it is just never received well. There is no making a move in our marriage any more.

This is the hard part about what I've been trying to figure out. She definitely lets me meet her needs so it is not that she won't kiss me, or hug her, or talk, or go have fun together. If she was in conflict she wouldn't usually allow me to meet those needs. When we were in conflict she wouldn't even allow me to help her do laundry but she does now. She went outside to plant a plant and I went out with her and hauled around her heavy bag of soil so she had it next to her. Needs are being met in this marriage, that is for certain, but the percentages are off, at least for me.

The only time SF occurs is right before bed and typically she is too tired, and to be honest sometimes so am I. I just don't know that if I went into overdrive and started doing all the laundry and every chore in the house that the outcome would be any different. She just doesn't want to have sex and if I stopped asking we just wouldn't, ever!

Here is what I know. I know that I'm not happy with a lack of SF. She knows that I'm very unhappy about a lack of SF because we've had the conversation many times. Despite these two well known facts in our relationship, the need still goes unmet. So yes her hackles get raised that her husband wants sex because it interferes with all the other things she needs/wants to do.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
This is the hard part about what I've been trying to figure out. She definitely lets me meet her needs so it is not that she won't kiss me, or hug her, or talk, or go have fun together. If she was in conflict she wouldn't usually allow me to meet those needs. When we were in conflict she wouldn't even allow me to help her do laundry but she does now.

Actually, that's a perfect description of Dr. Harley's state of conflict. In conflict, you are willing to have your needs met, but not willing to meet the other person's.

Withdrawal is the state where you are not willing to even have your own needs met.

How long has it been since your last demand, disrespectful judgment, or angry outburst? Wasn't it within the last week or so?

To me it still sounds like she is "in like" with you, not love. Does she doodle hearts? Call you unexpectedly at work just to talk? Stroke your arms, hug you, act affectionate? If she is not doing these things, she is not yet in love.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
This is the hard part about what I've been trying to figure out. She definitely lets me meet her needs so it is not that she won't kiss me, or hug her, or talk, or go have fun together. If she was in conflict she wouldn't usually allow me to meet those needs. When we were in conflict she wouldn't even allow me to help her do laundry but she does now.

Actually, that's a perfect description of Dr. Harley's state of conflict. In conflict, you are willing to have your needs met, but not willing to meet the other person's.

Withdrawal is the state where you are not willing to even have your own needs met.

How long has it been since your last demand, disrespectful judgment, or angry outburst? Wasn't it within the last week or so?

To me it still sounds like she is "in like" with you, not love. Does she doodle hearts? Call you unexpectedly at work just to talk? Stroke your arms, hug you, act affectionate? If she is not doing these things, she is not yet in love.

It has been less than a week since my last DJ. She doesn't doodle and doesn't contact me unless she needs something or has a question or wants my opinion. She did initiate holding my hand in the car yesterday or the day before which felt amazing and she rarely does that so I must be getting somewhere. I think you are correct. She wants to see if this whole "show" is real before she'll invest energy in me and I don't blame her.


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Morning Hill... how are you feeling today? How are you doing at NOT projecting a "needy" energy towards your wife?

I read some of the replys and such since i last posted to you and seen that the pendulum is not swinging in your favor YET.

SHe is still testing you and may even be (unknowingly) looking for you to resort back to your old "needy" ways to say something like "look... see .. you have NOT changed" DOnt get discouraged ... keep up the "roll with the punches and the no big deal kinda guy" that she needs you to be.

I quoted myself from page 148 of your thread.. so if you wanted to go back and look at some of the stuff i typed earlier from pages 138 (i think) to 152.
Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy from page 148 of this thread
You ask if your wife is testing you? OF COURSE SHE IS. Especially if your attitude is changing from the norm ... your wife might want to see if its for real. She wants to FEEL your changes as permanent so she may push your buttons to see where the new ones are. If you RARELY falter in your emotional state (keeping it from being negative) she will eventually give up doing these tests because you will be stimulating in other ways!

Change takes time .. and probably even longer for your wife to accept those changes than for you to actually make the changes.

MNG

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