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Originally Posted by emilyann
That's why I'm thinking maybe it would be a good time for telephone coaching, or maybe chatting with Dr. Harley on his radio show.

That's always a good suggestion!


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I think more than anything I'm just disappointed. Is it a DJ to be disappointed in my wife's behavior?

No, your feelings are not a DJ. But it is easy to respond with one, or in some other way that is a love bank withdrawal.

And Dr. Harley did tell me that to tell my wife I am "bothered" when she does not do something is a demand and/or disrespectful judgment, because even though it is an accurate reflection of my feelings, it is guilting her into responding.

The hardest thing I ever did in life was change an attitude of "I'm extremely disappointed" to a non-demanding "I'd really like it if..."

So "It bothers me that we don't have more sex" is a no-no, but, "I'd like to have sex once a week" is ok?


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Originally Posted by emilyann
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
[quote=markos] Last night when she let me down again I could see in her eyes that she felt awful. Despite that she is just not up to it, despite being up to a myriad of other activities and that just sucks from my perpespective.

I don't buy the "just not up to it".

For men and sometimes for women
desire -> arousal --> orgasm

for women often
arousal -> desire -> orgasm

In other words, women often need to start having sex before they have the desire for sex.

I think most women in mutually satisfying relationships often agree to sex when it's not something they are "up to" at the moment, but they know it's something their husband really needs. And usually, it ends up being really good for her too (if her husband is smart).

Not sure why your wife isn't willing to do that? That's why I'm thinking maybe it would be a good time for telephone coaching, or maybe chatting with Dr. Harley on his radio show.

And congratulations on remaining in the no lovebuster zone for so long! Keep it up!

I don't know why she isn't willing to do that either? smile We have sex but it is more like once every two weeks which for me isn't nearly enough. When we do we both are "satisfied" when done physically, but I don't think either one of us are satisfied emotionally.


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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
She could meet my most important emotional need yet she chooses not to and because of that I spend a significant amount of time on this forum to get through it. Seems like a simple fix from my side of the tracks, but I guess she doesn't see it the same way.

A man's perspective on SF is that this could be done, yet is not.

A woman's perspective on SF without romantic love is typically "I just can't do that."

My wife finds it extremely difficult to meet my emotional needs when she does not feel that connection.

So true, so true. And despite this, she has many times and I give her credit for it.


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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by emilyann
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
[quote=markos] Last night when she let me down again I could see in her eyes that she felt awful. Despite that she is just not up to it, despite being up to a myriad of other activities and that just sucks from my perpespective.

I don't buy the "just not up to it".

Wow, thank you for encouraging Hilltopper to judge his wife's perspective.

Maybe husbands should all start dismissing what our wives have to say!

It's ok, that is EmilyAnn's perspective, not mine. I can't make her do anything and I won't try. I'm just not satisfied with that need and I would very much like to be!


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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by emilyann
That's why I'm thinking maybe it would be a good time for telephone coaching, or maybe chatting with Dr. Harley on his radio show.

That's always a good suggestion!

Tough call here. That is a POJA and although this would help me a lot, I think it might do damage towards the progress we are making.


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Are you going to start snooping?


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Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Are you going to start snooping?

Of course. No need to ask it again just like there is no need to ask if I watched the videos again. This forum is voluntary last time I checked and I think it best to spend my time here posting about meeting needs and eliminating DJs.


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Originally Posted by markos
Maybe husbands should all start dismissing what our wives have to say!

Of course, I didn't mean hilltopper should dismiss his wife. I just think there is more going on here than perhaps she even realizes.

I think he would benefit from talking to Dr. Harley. Understand the POJA problem you have with that though.

what would you think of giving this a few days to cool off, letting your wife know you need to have a conversation (advance warning would be good I think)? During the conversation, ask her what her ideas are for meeting your top EN. Offer your idea of calling radio show for advice or getting telephone counseling, or doing the online course, whichever appeals to you most. Then negotiate for enthusiastic agreement on whatever ideas come up.

I think it has to be a time you are feeling emotionally collected, because with the info you found last night, it would be too easy to have a monster DJ. So like Markos says, patience is a virtue.

And if she blows off the idea of having the discussion.... well, that's for smarter heads than me.



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Originally Posted by emilyann
I think most women in mutually satisfying relationships often agree to sex when it's not something they are "up to" at the moment, but they know it's something their husband really needs. And usually, it ends up being really good for her too (if her husband is smart).

Just wanted to point out that this is a very dangerous perspective because it leads to sexual aversions. The more she just does it - when she doesn't feel like it - the more she will avoid it and the more likely she will develop an aversion. If women don't enjoy sex they come to dread it. And the more they dread it the more they avoid it and begin to associate ALL interactions with that aversion.

The reason she doesn't want to have sex is because you are emotionally DETACHED, hilltopper. Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. When a woman is in love, she has no problem making love to her husband.

Hilltopper, I agree with the others that you need to get coaching from Steve Harley. I would get a session with him and he will help you persuade her to get on the phone with him. I wouldn't even check with her first. Just get a session for yourself and let Steve guide oyu out of this tar pit.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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I didn't bother trying to POJA saving my marriage, Hill. When one spouse is having an attitude of 'oh, the heck with it all! I'm not doing anything!' (not saying Grace is, just saying I know *someone* who was), trying to get a POJA from them to do anything toward the marriage is quite frustrating and unfruitful.

At that point, the choice is pretty clear: either stand back while they destroy the marriage, or do something about it.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
I didn't bother trying to POJA saving my marriage, Hill. When one spouse is having an attitude of 'oh, the heck with it all! I'm not doing anything!' (not saying Grace is, just saying I know *someone* who was), trying to get a POJA from them to do anything toward the marriage is quite frustrating and unfruitful.

At that point, the choice is pretty clear: either stand back while they destroy the marriage, or do something about it.

I agree with this. The POJA does not apply when one spouse is making marriage wrecking decisions. Your marriage is going down the tubes and it is time to get some professional help. Let Steve help you in motivating her.


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Quote
In other words, women often need to start having sex before they have the desire for sex.

I think most women in mutually satisfying relationships often agree to sex when it's not something they are "up to" at the moment, but they know it's something their husband really needs. And usually, it ends up being really good for her too (if her husband is smart).

Not sure why your wife isn'twilling to do that?

She is not willing to do that because she is not in love.

A woman needs 2 things in order to enjoy sex: the feeling of being in love, and the prospect of enjoyment.

Her lovebank isn't full yet. When it is, she will have an easier time fulfilling this need.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by emilyann
I think most women in mutually satisfying relationships often agree to sex when it's not something they are "up to" at the moment, but they know it's something their husband really needs. And usually, it ends up being really good for her too (if her husband is smart).

Just wanted to point out that this is a very dangerous perspective because it leads to sexual aversions. The more she just does it - when she doesn't feel like it - the more she will avoid it and the more likely she will develop an aversion. If women don't enjoy sex they come to dread it. And the more they dread it the more they avoid it and begin to associate ALL interactions with that aversion.

The reason she doesn't want to have sex is because you are emotionally DETACHED, hilltopper. Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. When a woman is in love, she has no problem making love to her husband.

Hilltopper, I agree with the others that you need to get coaching from Steve Harley. I would get a session with him and he will help you persuade her to get on the phone with him. I wouldn't even check with her first. Just get a session for yourself and let Steve guide oyu out of this tar pit.

I don't know what else to do to make this woman fall in love with me so I mine as well.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
I didn't bother trying to POJA saving my marriage, Hill. When one spouse is having an attitude of 'oh, the heck with it all! I'm not doing anything!' (not saying Grace is, just saying I know *someone* who was), trying to get a POJA from them to do anything toward the marriage is quite frustrating and unfruitful.

At that point, the choice is pretty clear: either stand back while they destroy the marriage, or do something about it.

I think we've come a long way, but it is clear that she does not love me and I don't know how to change that other than to continue doing what I've been doing. The moment I go MB on her all the emotions and horrible feelings she had from last year will come crashing down upon her. I will proceed with caution with this approach.

I just don't get any of this. I just don't feel capable of giving her what she needs in a man at this point. I look at myself and feel like any woman in the world would be lucky to have me, yet here I am with the one woman who doesn't feel that way. Venting.....



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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I just don't feel capable of giving her what she needs in a man at this point.

Wow, from what I hear, you have become a great husband and have been giving her what she needs in a man -- just not for long enough.

And of course there's the recent DJs, which are not what she needs in a man. You are capable of stopping those.


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Originally Posted by Prisca
Quote
In other words, women often need to start having sex before they have the desire for sex.

I think most women in mutually satisfying relationships often agree to sex when it's not something they are "up to" at the moment, but they know it's something their husband really needs. And usually, it ends up being really good for her too (if her husband is smart).

Not sure why your wife isn'twilling to do that?

She is not willing to do that because she is not in love.

A woman needs 2 things in order to enjoy sex: the feeling of being in love, and the prospect of enjoyment.

Her lovebank isn't full yet. When it is, she will have an easier time fulfilling this need.

Again, venting here. What is there not to love? Is a mild DJ every week or so the entire thing here? It makes no sense. Either I'm a complete moron and can't grasp the MB concepts and essentially am wasting energy and effort, or my wife is immune to MB principles.


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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
I just don't feel capable of giving her what she needs in a man at this point.

Wow, from what I hear, you have become a great husband and have been giving her what she needs in a man -- just not for long enough.

And of course there's the recent DJs, which are not what she needs in a man. You are capable of stopping those.

Perhaps you are right, I just don't know. Perhaps the damage I did for so long just takes a long, long time to recover from. I have a lot of advice here. Call Steve Harley with or without my wife's agreement, or just keep doing what I'm doing. I don't know how long or how many times that I can be promised sex and then have it taken away. To her I suppose "it's just sex" but to me it's a crushing blow to my ego, my heart, and my mind each and every time. The opposite effect has occurred, I don't feel close to her and if she offered I would be the one "not up to it."

Last edited by Hilltopper1972; 07/24/12 10:21 AM.

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I hope you don't give up yet.

Remember Markos (?) analogy of throwing the stones in the river and how many it takes till you start seeing them show above the waterline?

I think you can be patient AND seek some extra help from MB resources, like calling Steve or the radio show.


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Originally Posted by emilyann
I hope you don't give up yet.

Remember Markos (?) analogy of throwing the stones in the river and how many it takes till you start seeing them show above the waterline?

I think you can be patient AND seek some extra help from MB resources, like calling Steve or the radio show.

Yep love that analogy. I hope I'm near the water line. smile


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