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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Ok, then why did you say you were upset about this?

Also, I would try and find activities where you can meet each others emotional needs. You should be meeting the 4 intimate ENs. What kind of activities can you think of that you both enjoy?

Because my needs are being met as it is and I certainly don't want her to spend time with some other dude, personal trainer or anything else.

To answer your question about what do we like to do, there are a lot of things. Athletics will be the core of our time together. This could be taking spin classes together, doing speed work on the treadmill, hiking, cycling, or other weight lifting activities or core workouts. I let her know my vision of what we should do between the hours of 4-8pm each night with the sitter so I have to wait for her to respond. I said I wanted to get out the calendar and map it out each week. If the boy has karate, then the other two can stay with the sitter while we go together and hang out during the class. Same with gymnastics with the daughter. Sometimes the sitter we'll take the kids to the park and we'll have sex which means we'll both have energy rather than the end of the night when we are both exhausted. Other times we'll go get some coffee or go to dinner or a movie.


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Morning Hill .. I see that you let your emotions get the best of you again. Its not an easy process.. beenderdundat and many times I let my emotions get the best of me.. heck it still happens once in a while. NO one is perfect.

I just wanted to let you know that because of your wifes reluctance towards MB, I fear your situation will get worse before it gets better. Not saying it WON'T get better.. but I hope for your sanity and your marriage that Steve can convince your wife MB is the way (because it is). But be prepared for some brazen words from your wife. Keep cool. Its a marathon .. not a sprint.

Good Luck.

MNG

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Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Morning Hill .. I see that you let your emotions get the best of you again. Its not an easy process.. beenderdundat and many times I let my emotions get the best of me.. heck it still happens once in a while. NO one is perfect.

I just wanted to let you know that because of your wifes reluctance towards MB, I fear your situation will get worse before it gets better. Not saying it WON'T get better.. but I hope for your sanity and your marriage that Steve can convince your wife MB is the way (because it is). But be prepared for some brazen words from your wife. Keep cool. Its a marathon .. not a sprint.

Good Luck.

MNG

If we spend more time together, which is the plan, I just don't see that happening. I had a breakdown, blew it, and there will be repercussions that I'll have to live with. My wife doesn't object to spending time together and never has. We have to get a sitter 5 days a week though for it to happen in all honesty. If we don't make this important move I think I'll be miserable and she'll be status quo, and I'll be the one to screw up. All I know is that I'm NOT ok with a non-romantic relationship and I want more than anything for my wife to be in love with me and vice versa.


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Originally Posted by Prisca
Originally Posted by Zhamila
Originally Posted by Prisca
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You said you think you're "home free." This concerns me, because it sounds like a man who is doing all this stuff just to get sex. I don't know too many women who are attracted to men who do things just to get in their pants. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your quote, but if this is your motive in "having a fabulous time" she will pick up on it, and shut down.
There is nothing wrong with a man meeting his wife's emotional needs in hopes that she will, in turn, meet his.

Marriage is about mutual care.


Totally agree, when they are both in love. She's not in "mutual care" mode yet - she's in withdrawal - and if he is giving just to "get" then this may be shutting her down.

He needs to prime the pump.


Priming the pump does not mean having no expectations that your needs will eventually be met.

Your suggestion here is unconditional love.

He shouldn't be demanding that she meet his needs, definitely. But he doesn't need to give up the expectation that they will eventually be met. To give up that expectation would be demotivating, as well as setting them up for an unsustainable situation - unconditional love on his part.

You don't bring a person out of withdrawal or conflict by giving up all expectations. You do it by meeting your spouses needs on a consistent basis, without lovebusters, with the expectation that your needs will eventually be met.


Again agreed, the operative word being "eventually."

Expecting the need for SF to be met eventually? yup.
Expecting SF Immediately (Week 1 no DJs)? nope.
Communicating the hope that she will begin to meet the need for SF? absolutely.

A quote from "When to Call if Quits" Part 1:

"Plan A is to give your husband "unconditional love" for a brief period of time, usually a month. I know. I've just written two columns that warn against unconditional love. But I've never been opposed to its use if it's intended to prime the pump. One spouse can't save a marriage, but one spouse can often set an example that the other spouse will sometimes follow. Plan A is to avoid all Love Busters, and to meet the other spouse's emotional needs without expecting anything in return immediately. But it also involves communicating the importance of reciprocity. Along with being an angel, you also explain that you expect your needs to eventually be met, too."

....that's all I was sayin'



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I agree with MNG, be prepared, and keep your cool.

Or GET a cool to keep, lol. Borrow one if you have to.

Have you read any of the stuff about push-back, change-back behavior? With a reluctant spouse, they are often reluctant because the way things are WORK for them. They shouldn't have to do anything different, and sure don't appreciate you doing anything different (like expecting care from them). So, during the change-over to a mutually satisfying and beneficial marriage, they will scream (you can safely ignore this). Eventually, with *consistent application* of MB concepts, they will see how it creates something better than what they had and thought they wanted.

However, going from A to B is not a short trip through candyland. There's no puppies or rainbows. It's more like hellfire and dragons. BE PREPARED, and be cool, calm, and collected. Eye on the prize and all that.


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Hill, maybe you would benefit from anger management. When you talk to Steve, ask him what he thinks about that.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
Eventually, with *consistent application* of MB concepts, they will see how it creates something better than what they had and thought they wanted.

Yup ... exactly. I fell short many times and ended up back at day one and in withdrawl many times .. over and over again. I would push MB and that would create HUGE fights (before we went to an MC that is) Eventually (because i was SO adamant about it) my wife finally caved in .. reluctantly of course after the MC failed) My wife was just tired of the fighting .. and said "ok .. fine .. lets try it your way .. but YOU do all the work. I am too mad at you to read or listen but I am tired of all this fighting something has to change)

I basicly berated her into MB.. becasue she originally wouldnt have ANYHTING to do with it because it was written by a man and she felt it was to get MY needs met and not hers. AFter she let me take the lead in MB ... many months went by and she started being receptive to it. I got alot of eye rolls .. and body language from her that suggested she was still not interested. But i kept up ... bought the books (more of them, i had HNHN) and as we read them (actually I did all the reading outloud while my wife listened reluctantly until we read lovebusters) something clicked ... something changed ... and she started being receptive .. and started feeling the changes after we read the book HNHN. SHe started listening to it in a manner that would get her to point out at ME what I was doing wrong. She wanted to use MB against me after that as a tool to get her way. I was fine with that (let it be her excuse) ... and things formulated from there.

I tried to encourage my wife to use MB against me (but acted offended sometimes as if she had the upper hand out of the deal) so she could hold me accountable in certain ways .. this proved to her that it was not all about JUST ME .. but that it was in fact for her too.

MNG

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Originally Posted by CWMI
I agree with MNG, be prepared, and keep your cool.

Or GET a cool to keep, lol. Borrow one if you have to.

Have you read any of the stuff about push-back, change-back behavior? With a reluctant spouse, they are often reluctant because the way things are WORK for them. They shouldn't have to do anything different, and sure don't appreciate you doing anything different (like expecting care from them). So, during the change-over to a mutually satisfying and beneficial marriage, they will scream (you can safely ignore this). Eventually, with *consistent application* of MB concepts, they will see how it creates something better than what they had and thought they wanted.

However, going from A to B is not a short trip through candyland. There's no puppies or rainbows. It's more like hellfire and dragons. BE PREPARED, and be cool, calm, and collected. Eye on the prize and all that.

You hit the nail on the head I'd say. You summed up my wife's attitude which is that she shouldn't have to DO anything. I'm not judging, this is the critical element of many of the conversations we've had. I typically want to disrupt the way things are and make change, strive for something better, but my wife just wants me to not react so severely to things and let them roll off my back. Without a doubt she wants me to let her DJ me or do other LBs that I don't like and just suck it up. If I just suck it up and don't react and take the higher road then things are great for her which is what I've been doing for the last 6 months with an occasional "reaction". For me things are not ok because I still feel neglected daily with an occasional flash of fun together.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
I agree with MNG, be prepared, and keep your cool.

Or GET a cool to keep, lol. Borrow one if you have to.

Have you read any of the stuff about push-back, change-back behavior? With a reluctant spouse, they are often reluctant because the way things are WORK for them. They shouldn't have to do anything different, and sure don't appreciate you doing anything different (like expecting care from them). So, during the change-over to a mutually satisfying and beneficial marriage, they will scream (you can safely ignore this). Eventually, with *consistent application* of MB concepts, they will see how it creates something better than what they had and thought they wanted.

However, going from A to B is not a short trip through candyland. There's no puppies or rainbows. It's more like hellfire and dragons. BE PREPARED, and be cool, calm, and collected. Eye on the prize and all that.

Geez this resonates like an orchestra! I had to read and re-read it again to make sure I got it. For whatever reason my wife isn't interested in a mutually beneficial relationship with feelings of love. It's not that she is opposed to love, its that she might have a different view on what a marriage is supposed to be than I do. She viewed a non-mutually beneficial marriage of her parents her entire life whereas I viewed a marriage that is very mutually beneficial in my parents. She learned over time that she does not have a mutually beneficial relationship with her mother and in fact we both started recognizing non-mutually beneficial relationships with certain friends that we agreed not to continue.


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Originally Posted by MrNiceGuy
Originally Posted by CWMI
Eventually, with *consistent application* of MB concepts, they will see how it creates something better than what they had and thought they wanted.

Yup ... exactly. I fell short many times and ended up back at day one and in withdrawl many times .. over and over again. I would push MB and that would create HUGE fights (before we went to an MC that is) Eventually (because i was SO adamant about it) my wife finally caved in .. reluctantly of course after the MC failed) My wife was just tired of the fighting .. and said "ok .. fine .. lets try it your way .. but YOU do all the work. I am too mad at you to read or listen but I am tired of all this fighting something has to change)

I basicly berated her into MB.. becasue she originally wouldnt have ANYHTING to do with it because it was written by a man and she felt it was to get MY needs met and not hers. AFter she let me take the lead in MB ... many months went by and she started being receptive to it. I got alot of eye rolls .. and body language from her that suggested she was still not interested. But i kept up ... bought the books (more of them, i had HNHN) and as we read them (actually I did all the reading outloud while my wife listened reluctantly until we read lovebusters) something clicked ... something changed ... and she started being receptive .. and started feeling the changes after we read the book HNHN. SHe started listening to it in a manner that would get her to point out at ME what I was doing wrong. She wanted to use MB against me after that as a tool to get her way. I was fine with that (let it be her excuse) ... and things formulated from there.

I tried to encourage my wife to use MB against me (but acted offended sometimes as if she had the upper hand out of the deal) so she could hold me accountable in certain ways .. this proved to her that it was not all about JUST ME .. but that it was in fact for her too.

MNG

The reason(s) my wife has a bad taste about MB are the following:

1. She believes the forums convinced me that she was cheating(she wasn't) which sent me into a tail spin of paranoia and multiple accusations.
2. I preached.


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Q:
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my wife just wants me to not react so severely to things and let them roll off my back.

A: so stop reacting severely. You can respond without 'reacting severely' if you have any self-control at all.


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That is a skill I have not mastered but am working on daily. My wife escalates things even if I respectfully react to something such as a DJ. In other words in her world I shouldn't react to anything, I should just take it in and not complain in any way, respectfully or disrespectfully. To her speaking to me rudely shouldn't matter.


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(1)For whatever reason my wife isn't interested in a mutually beneficial relationship with feelings of love. It's not that she is opposed to love, (2)its that she might have a different view on what a marriage is supposed to be than I do.

1. She would be, if she experienced it.

2. My H had a very different view of marriage than I did. My mistake, I assumed that the relationship we had prior to marriage would continue. It was only later that I learned he believed that "men don't date their wives." Ha! He had a lot of beliefs that felt out-of-the-blue to me--like POJA was 'asking permission' which was childish/p-whipped. And that making money meant he didn't have to do anything else, like interact with us. So? Views can be changed through education and experience.


Hill, I do want to smack your noggin for turning away her offer of sex the other night. When you complain that a need is not being met, then are presented with ANY opportunity to have it filled, take it and make sure that your spouse is GLAD to have made the gesture. You FAILED. You know this, though, right? Please tell me that you know that you missed an opportunity to make your wife see the benefit of reaching out to you.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
Quote
(1)For whatever reason my wife isn't interested in a mutually beneficial relationship with feelings of love. It's not that she is opposed to love, (2)its that she might have a different view on what a marriage is supposed to be than I do.

1. She would be, if she experienced it.

2. My H had a very different view of marriage than I did. My mistake, I assumed that the relationship we had prior to marriage would continue. It was only later that I learned he believed that "men don't date their wives." Ha! He had a lot of beliefs that felt out-of-the-blue to me--like POJA was 'asking permission' which was childish/p-whipped. And that making money meant he didn't have to do anything else, like interact with us. So? Views can be changed through education and experience.


Hill, I do want to smack your noggin for turning away her offer of sex the other night. When you complain that a need is not being met, then are presented with ANY opportunity to have it filled, take it and make sure that your spouse is GLAD to have made the gesture. You FAILED. You know this, though, right? Please tell me that you know that you missed an opportunity to make your wife see the benefit of reaching out to you.

Yep I blew it and I apologized.


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Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
That is a skill I have not mastered but am working on daily. My wife escalates things even if I respectfully react to something such as a DJ. In other words in her world I shouldn't react to anything, I should just take it in and not complain in any way, respectfully or disrespectfully. To her speaking to me rudely shouldn't matter.

It takes two to fight.

Remember that.

The single most effective method I used to remove fights due to escalations in my house was to stop engaging in them. Sure, my H ended up yelling all by himself several times, and eventually he quit because BELIEVE ME: nobody wants to be the only crazy nasty person in the room.

If she says something rude, try responding with, "Thanks!" or "Ouch!" instead of your method of educating her on what she did wrong. Or set a boundary. "I will not talk with you when you use that tone."


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Yep I blew it and I apologized.

I have to ask: do you think this makes it all better?



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HillTopper,
I wanted to congratulate you on the idea of getting a nanny/regular sitter for a specific number of hours per day. This is what we did and it was a tremendous help to us in getting consistent UA time.
One caution though: In your sex-deprived state, make absolutely certain you do not get a nanny that is young/good-looking or that you may be attracted to in some way.
Good Luck!

RC


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Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by Hilltopper1972
That is a skill I have not mastered but am working on daily. My wife escalates things even if I respectfully react to something such as a DJ. In other words in her world I shouldn't react to anything, I should just take it in and not complain in any way, respectfully or disrespectfully. To her speaking to me rudely shouldn't matter.

It takes two to fight.

Remember that.

The single most effective method I used to remove fights due to escalations in my house was to stop engaging in them. Sure, my H ended up yelling all by himself several times, and eventually he quit because BELIEVE ME: nobody wants to be the only crazy nasty person in the room.

If she says something rude, try responding with, "Thanks!" or "Ouch!" instead of your method of educating her on what she did wrong. Or set a boundary. "I will not talk with you when you use that tone."

I stewed after being promised sex and turned down three straight nights in a row. It was a lot to take and wasn't disciplined enough to shut my mouth. I HATE fighting with my wife because it is always over the same thing which is me not being happy.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
Quote
Yep I blew it and I apologized.

I have to ask: do you think this makes it all better?

Course not, but I'm not gonna skip an apology.


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Originally Posted by Raging_Calm
HillTopper,
I wanted to congratulate you on the idea of getting a nanny/regular sitter for a specific number of hours per day. This is what we did and it was a tremendous help to us in getting consistent UA time.
One caution though: In your sex-deprived state, make absolutely certain you do not get a nanny that is young/good-looking or that you may be attracted to in some way.
Good Luck!

RC

Thanks! We mapped it out and she agreed to 4-8 pm M-F. She did not agree to skipping morning workout which causes her to get up at 5am and said this would not make her so tired. There is no shortage of things to do for us during this time. I'll keep your other advice in mind.


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