Ws and I started going to Marriage Counseling (MC). I guess I should feel good that she is willing to go. We have had 4 MC sessions so far and things haven't changed much. She is still treating me like sh** and being disrespectful to me. I need some things from her to start to rebuild trust but she views those things as me being controlling. The things I would like her to give me are, Start to wear her wedding ring. I would like to know every detail about the A including meeting places. I would like to know all of her email accounts. I would like to be able to check her voice mail. I would like her to call me periodically through out the day and before she leaves work. I would like to know where she is if she is not at work or with me. Most of you are probably thinking no wonder she says he’s controlling. I know this is controlling and I wouldn’t expect her to live like that forever. I would like to put a timeline on the things I want from her. Say 3 months or whatever we can agree on. I am willing to compromise not all of my needs have to be met. This is a big stumbling block for us. Neither of us wants to give up any ground. I feel trust is something that is earned. She has betrayed that trust and she will have to earn that back. Our last MC session the counselor agreed that we both had to make some sacrifice to try to rebuild trust. Ws and I need to agree on some of the things I am asking for and in return I need to get off her back (so to speak) meaning stop asking so many questions (Where are you, What are you doing, Who are you with Etc.). I know that must get pretty annoying for Ws also. I find it so hard not to ask these questions Bc IM so paranoid. This morning She all but said she would not live like that and she was not going to compromise on any of my needs. That the impression I got. Ws has stated that she wants to work on M. If that is so why cant she compromise also? So I am not in such a good mood today. The future for us does not look so good. Ws has been treating me like crap for about 4 months now and my patients/tolerance is wearing thin. The last thing the MC said was “this week try to spend some time together touching, caressing and hugging”. I laughed a bit and said “I do that now but she does not reciprocate”. Then I said, “I think she does not reciprocate because she is afraid it will lead to sex”. Ws agreed. I said “OK then I promise that I will not try to have sex if you reciprocate this week”. Ws has not even attempted to show any signs of affection. Well see how the rest of the week goes.
I know I am going get a lot of responses like what about you and how is your plan A. For myself I am doing well. I am tacking better care of myself Etc. For Ws I have a real problem not asking all the questions. I think if we could compromise on some of the things I need from her that would help me a lot. Right now the way she acts towards me is just so suspicious. So as far as asking questions and checking up on her I lack the discipline and I need help. I am loving to her I helped around the house laundry, dishes and cooking. I continue to take care of the outside of the house lawn work Etc. I find it extremely difficult not to LB when I get treated so badly. I try to do cute fun things that she would normally laugh at. She doesn’t find humor in much of anything I do anymore. I know that deep down she knows that we can get along fine and that I can fulfill all her needs if she just opens up to me. Our marriage up until the A was OK for the most Part. Until she lets OM go we don’t stand a chance. Ws made a comment to the MC she said “why does it seem like I am always looking for something better” This statement to me says a bunch. For 1 she was looking for this to happen. Now that the MC knows how difficult Ws family life was Mc recommended WS go to IC to figure some things out. I hope Ws does go to see someone.
I have told Ws that I cant sit around and be treated like crap and wonder if she is still having the A. Ws says “I feel like I am going to lose you before I get a chance to get Better”. Ws keeps using the 6 Month time line. I am an individule my own person. I have let my temper get the best of me in the past (before M) and I wounded up in jail over it. I told the Mc and the Ws that the minute I feel like I am going to hurt someone is the minute that I pull the plug. My liberty / Sanity is worth more than my marriage. Mentally I can only take so much. I want to make it clear I have not Turned Violent towards my wife or anyone else since my jail term. The reason I went to jail last time was I was overwhelmed with jealousy and hate that I beat up the OM. I will not go down that road again! So please before anyone bashes me with your not patient. Please see me as an individual with certain limitations. I would like encouragement to be patient but don’t judge me…Everyone is different and has different limitations. I guess I really looking for your thoughts and encouragement.

Inafunk,<p>I think you have a few things backwards. So here it is straight and hard. You are not in recovery. SHe is still with OM. THerefore, there is nothing to compromise about. GOT THAT??? NOTHING!<p>You cannot work on your marriage with OM in the picture and you are simply wasting your time. You ARE NOT going to get YOUR needs met by a woman still attached to another man. END OF STORY.<p>Your W will continue to treat you like crap because she DOESN'T CARE. SHE HAS SOMEONE ELSE. <p>So you have two options: deal with it or leave. If you leave the marriage is over and so is much of the pain if not the regret. If you choose to deal with it, then you MUST recognize that you are just hanging around until the A ends. NO COMPROMISES, NO NEEDS MET, SHE IS GOING TO TREAT YOU LIKE CRAP. <p>Is that clear??? I hope so. <p>I don't mean to be harsh, but please read the information here. This whole thing proceeds in steps, there may be variations on the ending but the steps are almost always followed. She is in withdrawal from you, uses most everything you do to justify her affair. It isn't fair, it isn't nice, it stinks, but it is NORMAL. Hence the Plan A and Plan B parts of the Harley method.<p>You need to do plan A until you cannot resist LB's when you cannot and before you lose all love for W, you go to Plan B to reduce the pain to YOU, to keep YOUR love for her. Nothing can be done until the affair is over and she goes through withdrawal from him.<p>So sit back, pick your plan A or B, and quit trying to fix this. You cannot and she doesn't care if you can or not.<p>Sorry, but that is how it is.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

JL Thank you for your input. I guess Im confused bc Ws tells me she is not seeing Om and wants to work on M. I guss her actions speak otherwise. Then I think why should I believe any thing she says anyway.

Why would Ws waste her time and $ in MC? This make no sense.

funkedup:<p>I'd back off asking your W to keep you posted about what she's doing, where she's going, whether she's seeing OM and focus on YOU. Period. Since your R with her isn't all that great right now, she's probably still seeing OM. If she were even in W/D from him, she'd be needing comforting for her loss, and she doesn't seem to be needing that (and so she's not going THROUGH it). <p>I know that there are many here that recommend snooping. I tried that early on (when it wasn't hard) and it made me crazy thinking about things that I imagined were happening, on top of what was really happening. I realized I couldn't change her behavior by asking her to tell me every time she emailed OM or what was said, or to let me call OM or his W myself. That just tweaked her gain knob and she'd explode at me. <p>No, the real breakthroughs in this process for me have happened when I let go completely. Once my W started to realize that DV was an option that I was considering SERIOUSLY, and that I was even anticipating a future without her with some optimism, she started to take some concrete steps back toward our R, *exclusively*. Still a long ways to go, but there was no possible way we could make any M headway with OM still in her life. Since he's not "gone" yet (working for my W), this particular corner has yet to be decisively rounded, but I can at least see it now!<p>MC isn't a waste of money, even if she's continuing to deceive you. You never know what someone might say or when it might happen, but it can be absolutely amazing what spark gets the Earthling's synapses firing again. And, as others have pointed out, C is cheaper than DV, and if it works out, you still have your M at the end.<p>Hang in there, and work on your self-confidence!

funkedup,<p>THe answer to your questions are really in 2long's post. AT best she is in withdrawal from the OM and is still withdrawn from the marriage. It is not a waste of money to have counseling. If she is willing to go that is a good sign, but that doesn't mean she is ready or willing to work on the marriage.<p>Not being ready to work is evidenced by the fact that she doesn't see the reason you might not trust her. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Her unwillingness to try and do what is necessary to put you more at ease. The message is clear, so keep Plan A'ing or go to Plan B. That will give you both the time she is asking for to heal.<p>Now, given that you come to realize that you cannot fix this, there really is no reason to actively not trust her. Does that make sense? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>THe point I am making when she starts to care whether or not your trust her, SHE will start to do things to let you know that you should trust her. At this point, you should proceed with the idea that her input into your live cannot be trusted so do not use that input in making your decisions. In a way you are flying blind, but if you love her, make your decisions as best you can keeping in mind that you don't want to hurt her.<p>I don't have a lot of time but I hope this helps. You must realize you have no control over this situation or her, so stop trying. You will never control her, the only control you might have is if she decides she wants your love. Then she will modify her behavior so as to keep you happier. In a sense she will tell you where you can control things. Until then, no control, no input, no worries (right???, yeah right!)<p>Funkedup you are fighting with the wind and you cannot win that fight. So just stop and let it blow.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

OK, Thank you for your responses. I would like to know if my WS was truly ready to start recovery do you think that the items that I am asking for below are reasonable for a short time? Start to wear her wedding ring. I would like to know every detail about the A including meeting places. I would like to know all of her email accounts. I would like to be able to check her voice mail. I would like her to call me periodically through out the day and before she leaves work. I would like to know where she is if she is not at work or with me.

funkedup,<p>What you would LIKE to know, what you NEED to know, what you wish you DIDN't know, are all going to change. THe point is very simple but complex.<p>You will need to be able to trust her. She will want you to trust her. The issue isn't WHAT you want to know, it is what is she going to do to regain your trust. If and when she asks that, then a 'discussion' using POJA should follow. THe two of you should AGREE to what needs to be done.<p>Now, there is another issue. What is it going to take for YOU to stay in the marriage? This is where you will need to know some things. Why? So that you don't fall into a pothole of her creation without knowing it. She will need to share her life with you, and there is a part of it you don't know, and hence need to know.<p>I will warn you many many BS's have come back later as said they wished they didn't know what they had asked for. I would write down the information and the questions you need. Refine this list over and over. You will find that she will answer many of them as time moves on. <p>Then giver the remaining list with this idea in mind. THe list will get answered ONCE. Try to never repeat the questions. It will help you and it will help her.<p>So, lose the demands. The things you want/need/or suspect you need to know will change and they will be addressed OR you will find you won't be interested in staying in the marriage. Right now that is not an issue. She is the one that needs to be convinced that staying in the marriage is the right thing to do and something she wants to do.<p>Until she is, your requests are premature. Sorry.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Funkedup,<p>I agree with JustLearning that you are premature in your demands. In fact demands are probably a big Love Buster for your WS. This only serves to drive her away, which I know you don't want. <p>If you want to draw her closer work on yourself, understand what her EN's are, and then work on satisfying them (Plan A stuff).<p>Are you C with the Harley's or are you counseling with someone that has a different philosophy? It sounds like it's different to me. I think it's important to try the MB method completely. Don't go half-way. If you haven't read the book "Surviving and Affair", get it and read it. It has most of the ideas you need to guide you through this. I'm getting ready to do the same so we are in the same boat.<p>Good luck

I would like to clarify something. I am not making demands. This is a list of things that I would like. IM saying "here are my needs lets compromise and come up with something we can both agree on". This way we will be following the poja and h&o agreement.

funkedup,<p>I'm not sure the list of items you want can be properly labeled as needs. For Plan A you need to identify your EN's. Can these requests be boiled down to "honesty" being your EN?<p>I can understand you don't trust her now, and you want to restore that trust by checking up on her, and having her report to you just to make sure all is well. I am interested in hearing from others more familiar with the MB principles if this is the best way to go about "trusting" again. I would definitely talk about this with the counselor to see what their recommendation is. If she is still in a relationship, there isn't any way she can "Enthusiastically Agree" with your requests.<p>I can relate to the Wedding ring issue. My W hasn't been wearing her wedding ring. This was a major LB for me, as it showed she didn't care. I even asked her to show it to me so I knew it wasn't sold (symbolizing it's over). She wouldn't even show it to me. I didn't press, but recently she showed me the ring on her finger. So I'm relieved she didn't sell it but still don't understand why she couldn't do a very simple thing when she know it upset me so much.<p>Best wishes

funkedup:<p>Yeah, but they sound like demands because SHE didn't help you generate the list. <p>I just don't think you can expect her to agree to that list unless SHE comes to YOU with a sincere desire to focus on her R with YOU (with NO distractions from OM) and asks YOU then what you need to stay M'd. <p>A really frustrating situation to be in, but if you set that list aside until she's ready to discuss it with you, and work on yourself, you'll be ready when she is, or you'll be a happy single guy.

I'm so sorry you are having such a difficult time. <p>I think you are getting good advice---especially to go completely with the Harley principles. You need a plan---In my experience, most MC don't have a plan. We went through FOUR therapists before we found the Harleys. Harleys will help you go from Point a to Point b. There's a map.<p>Right now, I would suggest that you do a good Plan A and, as difficult as it may seem, try to refrain from asking re the A. It'll only depress you and, from what you are saying, may be a MAJOR LB. LBs hurt the process.<p>Make yourself the man that she WANTS to spend her life with. Try it for a couple of weeks---one day at a time. If you get to the point where you just can't take Plan A anymore and feel yourself falling out of love or ready to commit a LB then it's time for Plan B. <p>Hang in there---I'm dealing with this type situation myself, so know how difficult it is.

Our Mc Has asked Ws to think this week about what she is willing to give to help restore trust in our M. Our Mc does not know the Harley principles but she seems interested in reading about it. We filled out En questionnaire and gave it to her. We also talked about some of the responses. Ws said she was not sure how to answer some of the questions. Should she fill it out for how she felt Pre A or post A. The Mc said fill one out for both before and after the A. We haven’t done that yet.

FunkedUp,<p>If you have the book SAA, turn to page 66. There, you will find the first checklist in the book for how to end an A the right way. Most of your "demands" are on that list:<p>

• Reveal information about the A
• Commitment to never see or talk to the OP again.
• No-contact letter to OP
• The extraordinary precautions that eliminate the secret second life to guarantee total separation from the OP

<p>Then, on page 67 is the beginning of the next chapter, Preparing for Recovery, with the very first section being Getting Through Withdrawal.<p>This gives you some idea of where you are in the process. You are nowhere near even beginning recovery. This was a huge shock to me to discover I was in Plan A. I did not sign on for Plan A. I signed on for Recovery. I was promised Recovery. I was lied to and duped yet again. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>So, what do you do when that happens? You have to make a choice again now that you are better informed. The best way to do that is to educate yourself about all the choices, Plan A included. The first step of Plan A is to set a time limit for YOURSELF. Have you done that? The second step is to avoid LBs at all costs. Even we know you haven't done that. Are you willing to try? Is it something you think you can do? How long do you think you can do it? Set a time limit. Draft a plan for yourself.<p>Even if you WERE in recovery, here is how to make thoughtful requests, from Dr. Harley in Give & Take:<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>1. Explain what you would like and ask how your spouse would feel fulfilling your request. <hr></blockquote><p>Let's start with the first item on the first checklist of SAA, which you phrased this way, "I would like to know every detail about the A, including meeting places."<p>That item in thoughtful request form would be: How would you feel about sharing details about the A with me?<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
2. If your spouse indicates the request will be unpleasant to fulfill, withdraw the request. <hr></blockquote><p>If she doesn't want to share details of the A with you, you withdraw the request.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
3. Discuss alternative ways your spouse could fulfill your request and feel good about it. <hr></blockquote><p>This is where POJA comes into play: "What do you think would help you feel better about sharing the details of the A with me?"<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If a request is withdrawn, a CARING COUPLE [emphasis mine] will then discuss alternative ways to accomplish the same objective with mutual enthusiasm. <hr></blockquote><p>If one of the spouses is uncaring, then you do not have a caring couple and cannot do step 3.<p>Recovery is not one of your choices right now. Plan A is a viable choice for you, but in order for it to have any positive influence on your W, LBs will have to be eliminated from your interactions with her. Plan B without a good Plan A foundation will be very difficult to implement. If you are having a hard time detaching now, Plan B may be even more difficult for you. And you always have the choice of separation and/or divorce in whatever form you wish.<p>If your goal is to rebuild your M, figure out what is working for you and what is not. Decide on a plan and do your best to implement it. That will do more to help you feel better than anything else. You will feel more in CONTROL of your life.

I humbly suggest reading the Harley book 'Love Busters' because it goes into much greater detail than 'Surviving an Affair' on the subject of love busters with example stories.<p>I would also suggest that you listen and incorporate what you have been told about you and your WW not even beign close to recovery because they are right. SHE IS IN WITHDRAWL and her behavior towards you is very typical of WS's going thru withdrawl. This is a looooonnnnng journey and you are like the kid that asks his parents every 5 seconds 'are we there yet?' so try to get by one day at a time and before you know it she may start giving you signs that she is finally committed to rebuilding the M.<p>You learned a valuable lesson after you beat the crap out of the OM and went to jail for it and I am glad that you value your sanity and liberty enough to not want to loose them again. So if you have a hard time stoping those love busters from coming out of your mouth, then I would also suggest you consider making yourself scarce everytime she starts treating you like crap and acting disrespectful because then you minimize the chances of a confrontation that will make you love bust her.<p>The more she perceives that you are pushing and rushing her into recovery, the more stubborn she will become about doing it. It's like the situation parents find themselves with their teenage children when they tell them not to do something that might be harmful and the kids rebel by doing it.<p>Above all, remember that she is your W and not your slave. She is with you because SHE WANTS TO BE with you but can not give you the things you need because she is fighting the addiction to the OM. BE KIND AND DON'T EXPECT ANYTHING IN RETURN and later, much later on she may start to see that she made the right choice staying with you.<p>Good luck.<p>Joe<p>[ May 09, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

Conqueror, in the last post you quoted Harley. "If a request is withdrawn, a CARING COUPLE [emphasis mine] will then discuss alternative ways to accomplish the same objective with mutual enthusiasm". I have tried this. Ws says I am asking the same question in a different ways. Then she gets annoyed, thus a LB. I guess I should get it through my thick head that she is still in contact with OM. I guess I just don’t want to believe it. I don’t know what I am going to do. I am already so tired of the rollercoster ride. I don’t want to do anything stupid and get myself in trouble.

FunkedUp,<p>Your W may or may not be in contact with the OM, but that is not the main issue. The main issue is that she is apparently unwilling to follow the extraordinary precautions to eliminate the secret second life. Even if she WASN'T using the secret second life to remain in contact with him (doubtful, but within the realm of possibility), it is still "a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell" (to once again quote Dr. Harley) for her to follow the extraordinary precautions.<p>The reason I emphasized the words CARING COUPLE in the quote above is because the two of you are not a caring couple right now. She is not following the rules of care and protection, so she is not going to POJA the issues. POJA is for couples committed to recovery, couples committed to caring for and protecting each other. Does your W fall into that category right now? You don't sound like you're being cared for or protected by her.<p>My suggestion based upon what I'm reading in Give & Take is to make the thoughtful request in the language Dr. Harley suggests. If she declines your request, withdraw it. Does she know you want her to follow the extraordinary precautions in order to prepare for recovery? I'm betting she does. We've told her it's necessary for recovery of your M. You've told her. She KNOWS; she simply does not care right now, and none of us can force her to care about her M.<p>You have nothing else to do as far as ending contact with the OM is concerned. Only she can do that, and only she can demonstrate to you that she has done that. She will demonstrate her readiness for recovery when she voluntarily eliminates the secret second life.<p>The most important thing to recognize is that what you are doing is NOT WORKING. You don't seem to be feeling any better. Believe me, if you get control of yourself, you will be in control of something, and you will feel better. The best thing you can do right now is to stop talking about your R, the OM, all of that. Pretend like you just met and try to get to know each other again.<p>Your W should care, and she should be considerate, and she should do all the things that will help the two of you rebuild your M, but you have to deal with how things are, not with how they should be. You can do what you should do. You should eliminate LBs whether the two of you remain married or not. Everything in Plan A will help you whether the M is rebuilt or not.<p>[ May 10, 2002: Message edited by: Conqueror ]</p>